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Jarriaga

A single mission that you have to play for 100 hours just to get the rewards is not 100 hours of content

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This is a re-post of @(XB1)TehChubbyDugan's thread, which is on GD. The re-post is being made in order to re-title the thread as recommended by other players as a reminder to DE.

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17 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

If you've played for any decent length of time, you've been around long enough to have seen literally all of this coming.

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On 2020-03-19 at 6:41 PM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

The best part of the "get your arcanes from the limited-time Scarlet Spear event!" is that if you look at the "place holder" costs for the low-tier arcanes they showed off on stream, vs the amount of points Rebb got from her mission vs the time the mission took with a party full of devs that understands the mechanics (that I guarantee they won't explain in-game because they never do.) what you get is the fact that it is almost guaranteed going to take an absurd amount of time to get a single higher-tier arcane.

And because I know some [DE]fender is going to do it: "But they said they were still balancing costs!"

In what alternate dimension have they EVER in the history of the game released literally any playable content with reasonable grind?  Go type "dog days" into the search bar in this forum or the subreddit and look at all the posts talking about the ludicrously insane grind that was present just for some goddamn beach balls.  This is a limited-time event (you'd think they'd learn to stop putting main story lore into limited time events.) during low player counts for rewards that contain very powerful items.  The grind is going to be absolutely heinous.  Like, "would be faster to just keep running pointlessly time-gated eidolons" heinous.

Even if the event is a total blast the first few times around, DE is not good at mission variance for fun repeatability.  It's going to be the exact same thing 4 billion times in a row and the grind to get even just enough Arcane Energizes to get your rank 3 back up to max is going to be an absolute nightmare slog, mark my words.

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That isn't an "I told you so."  That's just proof that all of this is easy to predict.  That's the problem here, that they've become predictable, and what can be relied upon is that things will not go well.  Not just the "Oh, it's day one bugs, they'll get ironed out."  The fact that they increased cost from what was shown on the dev stream even though what was shown on the dev stream already looked too high.  The fact that it's the exact same mission on repeat for 4 weeks and running that single-mission grind is the only way to get the things they increased the cost of. 

Even the gameplay is predictable.  There's almost never any new dynamic, different gameplay.  Everything is just some basic iteration of starchart missions, over and over again.  Bounties on the plains and vallis?  Star chart missions in different settings.  Quests?  Literally starchart missions with different dialogue.  Liches?  Star chart missions with thralls and maybe a field boss.  Alerts?  Star chart missions, maybe with a tiny different requirement like only being able to use melee weapons.  Railjack added something new, but again, there's literally only 2 mission types there.  Exterminate, and Exterminate with POI's that require you hack things.  The core gameplay of movement and shooting and abilities is really solid in this game, but they rely so heavily on it that the missions and modes they put out have zero complexity to them and almost no difference between them.

That lack of complexity by itself isn't enough to kill a game, I mean people play Clicker Heroes.  But when they continually try to "balance" the PVE with constant player nerfs, as if they've made some deep, tactical shooter, when what they've made is a hoard-mode rampage TPS, and the content they release not only typically breaks more than it fixes but also gets created under the banner of "GRIND IS CONTENT" you get things like Scarlet Spear.  You can't have a game with very little varied content, gate all the progression off with insane grind and actual time-gates, and continually balance down the main fun aspect of the game and maintain the health of your game.

The fact that they released a time-limited event during a period when there's a ton of new releases that people are going to want to play shows the state of mind that the devs are in.  They want to try and pull players from games that just got released, and they're doing so with nothing more than FOMO.  Missable content, especially content that's core to the story, and progression content like new gear being introduced as time-limited content, is toxic.  It's super S#&$ty.  Topping it off with the fact that in order to get the progression of lore and gear, it's literally just the same mission on repeat until you hate the game is absurd.

When I started playing this game I thought of the devs as the good guys.  Actually communicating with players.  I loved the core mechanics of the game, and honestly still do.  But all I can see these days is the worsening, tedious grind that comes out with every update and the nerfs that come out with every update and the fact that every single thing is just more of the same.  People were mad about the grind with Liches, and I was one of them.  But honestly the most disappointing thing about them is that it's the exact same thing as the rest of the star chart.  It's more of the same, and the same thing over and over is predictable.

There was nothing surprising to me about the backlash against Scarlet Spear.  This is all they do now.  Work on a single mission type for a year, pad it with grind to make it "repeatable", sprinkle some nerfs in next to it in the update, and release it as a broken mess and then act confused when people scream content drought a week later.  Grind is not content.  A single mission that you have to play for 100 hours just to get the rewards is not 100 hours of content.  This is not a PVP shooter like Call of Duty.  You cannot release map packs and call it content.  You cannot keep padding out a lack of content with grind while nerfing everything even remotely fun.  I mean you can.  But this is what your forums look like afterward.

And as for my own feedback: Please hire someone in charge of, --or-- consult externally with regards to, the optics of your thought process with regards to your reward pricing structure.

Some weeks ago, when you (DE) showed the credits store for SS in a dev stream, I posted this:

On 2020-03-13 at 8:58 PM, Jarriaga said:

Dog Days reward pricing PTSD intensifies.

I can not properly put into words just how disappointing it is that you, DE, either didn't get the memo, or are willingly choosing to ignore it despite the backlash to DD's reward pricing structure. Here we are again with the same problem in Scarlet Spear. You have been souring my opinion of your team and company with regards to your choices on fair time grind balance ever since Dog Days came out. Then you introduced the Lich grind after DD. Then this now, in a time-limited event that further amplifies the issue. 

I should not have been able to predict the absolute worst-case scenario (Dog Days pricing) and get it right. There's absolutely something broken with your decision-making process when balancing time investment. Is it investor/shareholder pressure to artificially boost "engagement" metrics? Is it stubbornness? Is it a misguided expectation of the number of rewards you expect us to "choose" while leaving out the rest?

And sure, you an patch it out, but that doesn't change the fact that this was your first and primary choice of pricing structure, and you thought it was fine. The thought process that you followed and eventually resulted in this of level raw, unadulterated grind for DD's, Liches and now SS in a single mission that you have to play for dozens of hours just to get the rewards is not acceptable, DE. Please consider the optics in the future.

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Im a huge advocate for DE, but I do agree on pricings. 15,000 for a gun? Sure, I'll only need one so its a nice challenge. 21,000 for a single max rank arcane. No thank you. especially as it seems to be, with a good team, 10min = 1000 points.

The whole 'if your relay gets 100 murex then you get a bonus' is nice, but so dependant on every player in that relay grinding like hell. The pricing shouldn't be balanced to take account of this happening all the time.

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Interesting read. Scarlet Spear issues aside, all games tend to have a somewhat repeating loop. To keep vet players around and heavy you will need to inject the formula with enough change to make the experience different, while not fundamentally changing the loop. I think this mostly fails.

A good example is the Kuva Liches. Yes, they are grindy and not well designed. However, what I was looking for is something slightly different. Only to realize you are doing the same exact mission, with random fights with a bullet sponge that can one shoot you in melee. There was nothing new, different or interesting about the liches. 

I do not have as much game play as many vet players. But I rarely find anything to do. If there is a Flood or an Arbitration that I want to play, I will play it. Otherwise, I rarely run anything else. I played the Plague Star and Acolytes this Jan. I dunno why these are considered... events. It is just lame stuff with rewards attached. We are now in month 5 of the intermission NW. 

To me personally, I played the game for the ground combat. I have no interest in space combat. Yet, RJ seems to be the only content now, and have been for a while. And even when we get ground content, it is basically, run more of star chart mission, and rarely does the difficulty rise enough for content to be engaging. 

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8 hours ago, chaotea said:

Im a huge advocate for DE, but I do agree on pricings. 15,000 for a gun? Sure, I'll only need one so its a nice challenge. 21,000 for a single max rank arcane. No thank you. especially as it seems to be, with a good team, 10min = 1000 points.

The whole 'if your relay gets 100 murex then you get a bonus' is nice, but so dependant on every player in that relay grinding like hell. The pricing shouldn't be balanced to take account of this happening all the time.

The Murex thing really isnt an issue since day 1. I havent seen a single flotilla that didnt drive off the 100 Murex well before the timer ran out neither yesterday nor today and this is in the middle of the week where people have both school and work (even in corona times). So anyone who is slightly serious about getting arcanes will get atleast 10 each 3 hours. That is 1 arcane of your choice each 18 minutes. That is also only if you stop when you hit 5000 points for max bonus and twiddle your thumbs for the rest of the wave. And this is also without taking into account possible flotilla jumping during those 3 hours. You actually get 1 arcane in less than 18 minutes if you stop at 5k points, since you dont spend time grinding for the full 3 hours.

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3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The Murex thing really isnt an issue since day 1. I havent seen a single flotilla that didnt drive off the 100 Murex well before the timer ran out neither yesterday nor today and this is in the middle of the week where people have both school and work (even in corona times). So anyone who is slightly serious about getting arcanes will get atleast 10 each 3 hours. That is 1 arcane of your choice each 18 minutes. That is also only if you stop when you hit 5000 points for max bonus and twiddle your thumbs for the rest of the wave. And this is also without taking into account possible flotilla jumping during those 3 hours. You actually get 1 arcane in less than 18 minutes if you stop at 5k points, since you dont spend time grinding for the full 3 hours.

You're assuming that rare and legendary Arcanes will be priced like common Arcanes currently are.  By using the current pricing structure:

Common = 1000

Uncommon = 1500

Rare = 2000 expected (if not more)

Legendary = 2500 expected (if not more).

So you are then looking at 42,000 points for a single max-rank Rare, and 52,500 for a single max-rank Legendary, if not more. And that's by doing absolutely nothing but devoting your WF playtime to Scarlet Spear to the point of burn out.

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Nowadays I just wish if a game wanted people to play more they'd add more game to the game. No need for fancy showcase pieces! I think Warframe Revised update did more for the game than Scarlet Spear update. And maybe more people logged in for Warframe Revised too?

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I can't wait to try Scarlet Spear on PS4 because I'm a bit confused about some of the complaints regarding pricing and pace for points. One poster said they got 1000 points every 10 minutes. If that's true, then wouldn't I only need a couple hours of gameplay to score the weapons? This event goes through April so, if I can get about an hour and a half of grind in per day for a week, I'll basically have the gun and two fully ranked arcanes? Considering the tridolan runs it takes to get maxed arcanes, I think this is a much better deal! No?

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

I can't wait to try Scarlet Spear on PS4 because I'm a bit confused about some of the complaints regarding pricing and pace for points. One poster said they got 1000 points every 10 minutes. If that's true, then wouldn't I only need a couple hours of gameplay to score the weapons? This event goes through April so, if I can get about an hour and a half of grind in per day for a week, I'll basically have the gun and two fully ranked arcanes? Considering the tridolan runs it takes to get maxed arcanes, I think this is a much better deal! No?

It's way more efficient, considering you can pick whatever arcane you want instead of dealing with the RNG from Eidolons. Also with the latest fixes.

But keep in mind that the event gets a little boring quickly, the missions aren't interesting enough for something you have to repeat hundreds of times.

People that like Eidolon hunting may prefer to do that instead, as it is a much more engaging activity IMHO.

Also, consider that the more rare arcanes ( like Energize ) may be more expensive that the ones that Little Duck has in store. Wouldn't surprise me if they make them cost like 10k credits each.

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3 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

You're assuming that rare and legendary Arcanes will be priced like common Arcanes currently are.  By using the current pricing structure:

Common = 1000

Uncommon = 1500

Rare = 2000 expected (if not more)

Legendary = 2500 expected (if not more).

So you are then looking at 42,000 points for a single max-rank Rare, and 52,500 for a single max-rank Legendary, if not more. And that's by doing absolutely nothing but devoting your WF playtime to Scarlet Spear to the point of burn out.

hmm, i don't find that prices to high - 2500 for a legendary arcane that would otherwise take god knows how many runs on the eidolons is a small price for some repeating grind... ofc, if you in need of ALL arcanes the thing sure looks bleak....  but then again, this here is an 'extra' chance to get them, not the new, only way for it. also, i'm pretty sure this event will be repeated regulary, so worst thing that might happen is that it will be like the accolytes and 'best' case, that it come as often as the ghoul purges...

btw: with what i got as credits from one evening of playing the event (and not even 'extensive' like some people) i got both weapons, the two decos (murex and earth consoles), the 'ballroom simulacrum' and a dozent arcanes (duno which were the common and the uncommon ones, so lets say 50/50). ok, i do have a lot of arcanes already and am not really in need of much more to max every one again - and i'm sure as hell are not in business of ripping off poor newbies with them either, so i can take this whole thing far more at leisure and pick my rewards as it pleases me. still, i already have what was most important for, the weapons (got to reach mr29 soon, i hope).

well, let see whar the prices on the other two 'tiers' will be, and then we can still cry zeter and mordio (or 'hue and cry' for those who know this one better ^^) to DE...

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3 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

You're assuming that rare and legendary Arcanes will be priced like common Arcanes currently are.  By using the current pricing structure:

Common = 1000

Uncommon = 1500

Rare = 2000 expected (if not more)

Legendary = 2500 expected (if not more).

So you are then looking at 42,000 points for a single max-rank Rare, and 52,500 for a single max-rank Legendary, if not more. And that's by doing absolutely nothing but devoting your WF playtime to Scarlet Spear to the point of burn out.

I bet once players max out their energize and grace they will stop bothering with Scarlet Spear. It seems like DE doesn’t want you to hoard Arcanes which may completely wreck their trade prices, hence the somewhat insane cost.

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4 hours ago, Redfeather75 said:

Nowadays I just wish if a game wanted people to play more they'd add more game to the game. No need for fancy showcase pieces! I think Warframe Revised update did more for the game than Scarlet Spear update. And maybe more people logged in for Warframe Revised too?

It did. it REALLY brought me back and even changed my taste in frames. 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

This event goes through April so, if I can get about an hour and a half of grind in per day for a week, I'll basically have the gun and two fully ranked arcanes?

It's not that easy though.

There is a time window of appr. 3h before Murex reset. If you score low in these 3h you won't get much. Most of the time 100 Murex were reached when there were still 1h43minutes left and switching Murex ended in empty lobbies. After the 3h reset you still have to wait another 10 minutes for the next wave to start.

So it's like: Can you consistently log in when the next wave starts? Do you have a fast Murex Relay and cannot score high bc max  Murex are reached in about an hour?1 Do the bugs even let you play smoothly?

 

1For comparison here's 3 pics with different points all when 100/100 were reached:

5g758aE.jpg

mqtZqlY.jpg

kMyCY5J.jpg

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1 hour ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

It's not that easy though.

There is a time window of appr. 3h before Murex reset. If you score low in these 3h you won't get much. Most of the time 100 Murex were reached when there were still 1h43minutes left and switching Murex ended in empty lobbies. After the 3h reset you still have to wait another 10 minutes for the next wave to start.

So it's like: Can you consistently log in when the next wave starts? Do you have a fast Murex Relay and cannot score high bc max  Murex are reached in about an hour?1 Do the bugs even let you play smoothly?

 

1For comparison here's 3 pics with different points all when 100/100 were reached:

-snip-

but... did you played the same amount of time in each of the instances? the first one looks pretty good - i guess you went in with a organized team there? or just got lucky with the other members? the 6k-7k is about what i got too when going in random and nearly about the whole lengh on the instance. tbh, i think i got more credits from the bonus than from the 'regular' pay though - a bit hard so say with all the changes in the first hotfixes, i even got a 'mail-transfer' of nearly 60k just yesterday because of this 'desync' issue they stated...

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7 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

You're assuming that rare and legendary Arcanes will be priced like common Arcanes currently are.  By using the current pricing structure:

Common = 1000

Uncommon = 1500

Rare = 2000 expected (if not more)

Legendary = 2500 expected (if not more).

So you are then looking at 42,000 points for a single max-rank Rare, and 52,500 for a single max-rank Legendary, if not more. And that's by doing absolutely nothing but devoting your WF playtime to Scarlet Spear to the point of burn out.

So? You are looking at 30 minutes per legendary if you just manage to scrape together 5k during the full wave. If you grind those 5k faster the minutes per legendary shrink further, same deal if you push beyond the 5k point during a wave. It isnt exactly a massive grind for something that powerful in the kit. To get the useful arcanes you are looking at the need to do around 1 wave per day throughout the event where you clock in at 5k points.

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26 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So? You are looking at 30 minutes per legendary if you just manage to scrape together 5k during the full wave. If you grind those 5k faster the minutes per legendary shrink further, same deal if you push beyond the 5k point during a wave. It isnt exactly a massive grind for something that powerful in the kit. To get the useful arcanes you are looking at the need to do around 1 wave per day throughout the event where you clock in at 5k points.

its 30 mins for 1/21st of a maxed arcane, that's assuming u have none of the arcane because u hated the fact that u had time limits on eidolons like me

30x21 = 630 mins 

over 10 hours

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21 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

its 30 mins for 1/21st of a maxed arcane, that's assuming u have none of the arcane because u hated the fact that u had time limits on eidolons like me

Well yeah obviously its for 1 R0. You spend considerably more time trying to get them from eidolons. The event is pretty inline with what Steve said, that they wanted it to be less grindy. The problem with the even is that they missed to add something for those who already have the R5s or only need 1 more R0. They only really have 2 weapons and some cosmetics to pick up. The price on arcanes is pretty spot on atm.

What could be changed is the flow of the event, so there is less dead time before a finished wave ends and a new one begins. At times there is an hour+ wait time for the wave to end.

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4 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

did you played the same amount of time in each of the instances?

No and that's my point.

The 12k was a solid Relay. No struggles, almost no bugs.

The 7k one was decent but all 100 Murex were driven away after 45minutes so no chance of getting more points (like cap)

The 5k one was bugged and couldn't receive any codes although there were 8 ground and only 2 space teams. The codes just wouldn't be transmitted to anyone as you can see here

9ZznIUK.jpg

 

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38 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

The 5k one was bugged and couldn't receive any codes although there were 8 ground and only 2 space teams. The codes just wouldn't be transmitted to anyone as you can see here

urgh... i had this just now, on two relay in a row. never had any trouble yesterday. but yeah, i get you now ^^)

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14 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

It's not that easy though.

There is a time window of appr. 3h before Murex reset. If you score low in these 3h you won't get much. Most of the time 100 Murex were reached when there were still 1h43minutes left and switching Murex ended in empty lobbies. After the 3h reset you still have to wait another 10 minutes for the next wave to start.

So it's like: Can you consistently log in when the next wave starts? Do you have a fast Murex Relay and cannot score high bc max  Murex are reached in about an hour?1 Do the bugs even let you play smoothly?

 

1For comparison here's 3 pics with different points all when 100/100 were reached:

5g758aE.jpg

mqtZqlY.jpg

kMyCY5J.jpg

Ahh, gotcha. So, the potential for the numbers is there, just not in its current state. 

Do you think the values are fair if everything functions correctly?

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1 minute ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Do you think the values are fair if everything functions correctly?

No. By far!

Like said: even if it works like intended it's heavily depended of the Relay you are in. Do you have time to get a good score = nice. If there are other "good" groups, all Murex are done in an hour and you have to wait 2 hours to get points again.

The other part which we haven't spoken about: 15 minutes space mission nets you 1875 credits, a 50 minute ground mission nets you 2200.

 

DE really has to adjust the balance between the groups on top of the bug fixing. We also haven't spoken about the broken Bonus credits which are either random or non existent at all

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2 hours is quite a long wait time! Wow!

In regards to the space v ground missions, I thought the space missions were more difficult due to Railjack + raid. Is that not true? 

Sorry for the Q&A. I fear the console wait time will be longer due to the virus changing DE's productivity flow. Completely understandable though!

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Why is everyone throwing around "max rank Arcane" like we are entitled to get a MAX RANK Arcane with ease.

A max rank Arcane... like, I'd think it would speak for itself, these are one of the longest grind items in the game. The super long chase that will take you months to complete. Also, Arcanes, the piece of equipment that are explicitly designed to be useful even when NOT at max rank.

Arcanes, the gear that most players don't even use yet are still murder gods. The things that exist only as a minimal bonus progression generally for veteran players. You would think that DE is gating Serration behind 20 hour time gates given how people are responding to this.

 

But no, I guess that all of those things are irrelevant. The only reward that has value is a MAX rank Arcane. Everything under max is apparently worthless trash. Context is pointless, we need all of the shiny items right now.

Don't assume this to mean that I don't think that the reward structure will likely need changes, I do. However for one we need to actually feel out what the current grind is like (as it has barely even been a day since the bonuses were working properly) and we need to remember that it is MAX RANK Arcanes we are talking about. This event is going to come back, Eidolons will still be there when the event isn't here, let's all just take a step back and look at the entire context.

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2 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Why is everyone throwing around "max rank Arcane" like we are entitled to get a MAX RANK Arcane with ease.

A max rank Arcane... like, I'd think it would speak for itself, these are one of the longest grind items in the game. The super long chase that will take you months to complete. Also, Arcanes, the piece of equipment that are explicitly designed to be useful even when NOT at max rank.

Arcanes, the gear that most players don't even use yet are still murder gods. The things that exist only as a minimal bonus progression generally for veteran players. You would think that DE is gating Serration behind 20 hour time gates given how people are responding to this.

 

But no, I guess that all of those things are irrelevant. The only reward that has value is a MAX rank Arcane. Everything under max is apparently worthless trash. Context is pointless, we need all of the shiny items right now.

Don't assume this to mean that I don't think that the reward structure will likely need changes, I do. However for one we need to actually feel out what the current grind is like (as it has barely even been a day since the bonuses were working properly) and we need to remember that it is MAX RANK Arcanes we are talking about. This event is going to come back, Eidolons will still be there when the event isn't here, let's all just take a step back and look at the entire context.

You do realize that you can get those max-rank arcanes significantly faster by farming prime parts, selling them for plat, and then buying the arcanes from other players, don't you? If the reward structure of a time-limited event in which your bonus payout is gated by what other players are doing is so inefficient that you might as well not play it because of what it demands from you vs. what you get and what you could get by investing the same amount of time somewhere else means then there is something inherently broken with the time investment vs. reward scale.

Arcanes are not end-game or veteran content. You can get a full set of what you want as soon as you are able to trade at MR2 if you have the plat, which you can purchase from DE directly. If you could not buy them from other players for plat and you were required to farm them yourself then I'd agree with your assessment. Otherwise your argument only holds itself by conveniently ignoring that DE have made it so you can literally buy your way to the top. Just buy 1 full Prime Access "Ultimate" pack and you have enough plat to buy 1 max-rank Energize, 1 max-rank Grace, and still have leftover plat for a Syandana or two.

And yes, base arcanes are utter trash, garbage, rubbish, waste, or whatever you call it in your region. Their proc chance, effect duration, and effect scaling are so low at base that you will rarely see them taking effect with enough frequency as to make a difference. Arcanes start to become viable at rank 2, and in between very good and great onwards irrespective of the ability because of the extra life.

Otherwise, if you wish to argue that rank 0 base Fury is "good" while lasting 3 seconds, Strike at a 2.5% proc chance, or Grace at 2% and lasting 2 seconds then be my guest. Unless you wish to boil it down to "it's better than nothing", then please feel free to choose the hill you get to die on. 

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40 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

-the part about market value-

Everything you say here goes on the assumption that the game needs to be balanced around market values. Can you at least admit that there was a bit of a leap there? Context, shock an surprise, is very important. Did you take the second to ask why Arcanes are so cheap? Or was it just a straight line of "Arcane cheap, thus it must be easy to get". Arcanes are inexpensive because the nature of Eidolon farming leads to an extremely inflated supply of any Arcane that isn't the most expensive. In additin there are years of stockpile of Arcanes that are now flowing through the market, affecting sale prices. There is no direct correlation between how good an Arcane is and how much it is valued it. The correlation is also not based on the time required, seeing as many rare Arcanes can be gotten for dirt cheap. It is a weird amalgamation of the two.

So asking for DE to balance the reward scheme of an event around such a volatile and inconsistent economy is a far larger leap than you lead it to be. The Market, in my opinion should play no role any balance decisions made by DE. I know they don't always follow this rule cough*Rivens, but we as players should not be asking for them to dive down that rabbit hole. If the market value of an item is low and you would rather just farm platinum, that is a better option than shifting the balance of the game to fit the Market (which will in turn shift the market).

Rewards should be based on their value and where DE sees them fitting in the game's progression. I wouldn't think that would be a hot take.

 

40 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

-the part about low rank Arcanes being bad-

Can you point to where I said that that unranked Arcanes are great? I'll wait.

What is really funny is that even you say that a rank 2 Arcane is where they start getting good. RANK TWO. This is exactly what I am getting at when I think people are blowing this whole "I need max rank Arcanes" thing out of the water. A rank 2 Arcane takes only 6 Arcanes. Max rank takes 21. If you want to go the extra mile and get the 21 Arcanes you need to max one, that should absolutely be an investment of your time. And if you just want to get some decent Arcanes to fill your slots, you only need 6-10, that is around a quarter to half of the grind of getting this oh-so-necessary max rank. The majority of Arcanes are just as powerful at rank 3 now as they were since they were released, many even have buffed stats at rank 3 compared to before.

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10 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Everything you say here goes on the assumption that the game needs to be balanced around market values. Can you at least admit that there was a bit of a leap there?

That's your opinion. My opinion is that if I have 2 choices for obtaining XYZ, then they are competing for my time. Are they close-enough time investments as to make the choice meaningless? Or is one choice so much slower that you might as well not even consider it? If I have 2 hours, what's the best use of my time? Most people will ask themselves those questions. Good on you if it happens that you don't.

10 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Did you take the second to ask why Arcanes are so cheap? Or was it just a straight line of "Arcane cheap, thus it must be easy to get". Arcanes are inexpensive because the nature of Eidolon farming leads to an extremely inflated supply of any Arcane that isn't the most expensive. In additin there are years of stockpile of Arcanes that are now flowing through the market, affecting sale prices. There is no direct correlation between how good an Arcane is and how much it is valued it. The correlation is also not based on the time required, seeing as many rare Arcanes can be gotten for dirt cheap. It is a weird amalgamation of the two.

I have no idea where you got this impression or where you hope to go with it. Grace and Energize are the most expensive Arcanes in the market and still they are more efficient to farm via plat trading than uncommon Arcanes in the SS event. Prices are based on supply and demand, nothing more and nothing less.

10 hours ago, DrBorris said:

So asking for DE to balance the reward scheme of an event around such a volatile and inconsistent economy is a far larger leap than you lead it to be. The Market, in my opinion should play no role any balance decisions made by DE. I know they don't always follow this rule cough*Rivens, but we as players should not be asking for them to dive down that rabbit hole. If the market value of an item is low and you would rather just farm platinum, that is a better option than shifting the balance of the game to fit the Market (which will in turn shift the market).

Then back to my original point:  if I have 2 choices for obtaining XYZ, then they are competing for my time. So even if you believe the game should not be balanced around the market, that does't change the fact that the market still exists and it's more efficient by such a degree in this particular case that it kills motivation for a time-limited event. Even if they don't balance the game 100% around the market, they should at least not make it so you take twice as much time. 

10 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Rewards should be based on their value and where DE sees them fitting in the game's progression. I wouldn't think that would be a hot take.

What progression? Are you ignoring that you can join SS at MR3 and there are no story, progression or MR requirements in order to buy and equip Arcanes? You're defeating your own argument of "balanced around how they fit in the game's progression" when DE are offering rewards for MR3 players that they can use right away. Doesn't that by extension mean that they should be priced as MR3 rewards since that is literally the progression requirement in this particular case? So which is it? Pick your poison. You can't go left and right at once.

10 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Can you point to where I said that that unranked Arcanes are great? I'll wait. What is really funny is that even you say that a rank 2 Arcane is where they start getting good. RANK TWO. This is exactly what I am getting at when I think people are blowing this whole "I need max rank Arcanes" thing out of the water. A rank 2 Arcane takes only 6 Arcanes. Max rank takes 21. If you want to go the extra mile and get the 21 Arcanes you need to max one, that should absolutely be an investment of your time. 

I was being hyperbolic there to make a point because you said "Everything under max is apparently worthless trash".

1) Rank 0 Arcanes are below max. Ergo, they fit your sentence. 

2) "Start to become good" implies that it is not good yet, merely on its way to it. Still has ways to go before being good, which is rank 3, and that's just for the extra life.

10 hours ago, DrBorris said:

 And if you just want to get some decent Arcanes to fill your slots, you only need 6-10, that is around a quarter to half of the grind of getting this oh-so-necessary max rank. The majority of Arcanes are just as powerful at rank 3 now as they were since they were released, many even have buffed stats at rank 3 compared to before.

3) Very few outliers will stop farming at rank 3 with 10 Arcanes already farmed and stop while saying "that's good enough", and even fewer will stop at Rank 4 when they are only missing 6 for max and they already put the work to grind 15 already. This inherently mans that rank 4 Arcanes and under Arcanes, even those with good effects, are less desirable than their max versions. This is further amplified by there being ZERO drawbacks for chasing a max rank Arcanes since you don't have an Arcane level capacity limit or a similar mechanic, so at that point it's not "If you want to go the extra mile and get the 21 Arcanes", but rather that you are needlessly handicapping yourself for not doing so.

4) This behavior is further amplified by DE deciding to first show max-ranked stats in vendor previews, and results in most people treating non-max Arcanes as inferior or incomplete versions that might as well not exist. 

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