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(XB1)WafflyLearner89

Could Warframe learn a thing or two from DOOM: eternal? (slight rant)

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I am aware of how VASTLY different these two games are........ BUUUUUUT, there are also a few similarities between them if you look closer....

-You play as warrior that can mow through waves of enemies and strike fear in the enemies that hear or see you

-The game makes you feel unstoppable without much challenge vs the game makes you feel unstoppable with a satisfying amount of challenge

-You have an arsenal of weaponry to choose from

-you are very mobile and can traverse the level quite well 

-you face deformed clones from earth (the grineer) that have spread across the system, want nothing but war and death, serve an ugly abomination that bathes in blood (kuva), can resurrect and sacrifice subjects vs. Demons from hell with lots of weaponry that want to turn earth into new hell (basically the same thing) 

-both games involve demons (we are void demons after all).

-Probably a few more examples but I think you get the point...

 

With that out of the way, I can't help but feel that the new DOOM game has a few things that warframe could use to shake things up. 

For one thing, it makes you feel like an unstoppable force that the enemies fear while also giving some challenge through different enemies that require different approaches to take down. Warframe kinda has that but almost all enemies can be taken care of through the same method of unloading damage, CC or nuking with abilities. Add that with the fact that it is very easy to build to have a lot more health and armor (no one say anything about not putting those mods on. That goes against gamer instincts to try to nerf yourself) and enemies don't pose much of a threat nor do they last long.

Speaking of the enemies, DOOM actually has good variety of enemies that attack differently, require different methods to take them down and they don't die in one hit (except the filler enemies which act like walking item drops). They even have a pvp stalker mode called invasion mode (you can invade other player's story as a demon enemy) and difficult lich/stalker like enemies called Marauder which is former sentient solider that fights like doom guy.

The level designs in DOOM are also a lot more fun to traverse as it requires you to use specific mobility options (such as wall leaps) that Warframe really needs to add to it's level design. The level designs in warframe should have more sections that require certain mobility options to traverse (one section could involve bullet jumping through a tight space, wall running on a platform and leaping onto another one, basically what a lot of other games use to make the level more interesting, etc.)

As for the arsenal, DOOM has a lot of cool weapons that are not only really fun and unique, but also have mods that can change your assault rifle into a mini rocket launcher. The glory kills also provide you with different drops depending on which weapon you finish a demon with and depending on which part of the body your aiming at, gives you a different animation. This is something that would be really cool for the parazon. 

-It's also more rewarding and less grindy (hint.hint)

There are also different modes in the game and exploration and alot of stuff that Warframe can learn a thing or ten from. Forget DMC5, DOOM: Eternal should be what DE looks to for inspiration!

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Do you think you're the first person to say that one game should do what x other game did?

How would you feel if you were dating someone and they said "My ex did this better than you, take a page from his book teehee" lmao

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I wonder if Warframe can learn a thing or two from Animal Crossing too since it shares similarities with DOOM, like this one:

Spoiler

animal-crossing-doom.jpg

 

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And see the difference

- Can you increase your damage output through some means to reach insane damage output to the point of able to kill a giant with one shot in DOOM eternal?

- Can you increase your toughness to the point of being a god in DOOM eternal?

- Can you control the battlefield through many means from CC to nuke in DOOM eternal?

- Less grindy because it's a single player, linear game where you play to the end, and that's it other than playing on higher difficulty which I doubt will be something more than increased health and damage on enemies to make them harder

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1 hour ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

-It's also more rewarding and less grindy (hint.hint)

Yeah, and I was done with the game in 16 hours.

It can dole out upgrades quick because it's a linear, single-player game.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Do you think you're the first person to say that one game should do what x other game did?

How would you feel if you were dating someone and they said "My ex did this better than you, take a page from his book teehee" lmao

I’d have to disagree that the analogy is appropriate. Coming from a creative background, I found that, when I first started making things, I wanted it all to be My Own Creation.

Turns out there’s an unescapable truth; everything we make has already been done, we’re just rearranging the pieces.

We look to anatomy for our character models, we look to real metal for our science fiction metal. Original IPs are based in what we’ve learned as humans up to this point, so we’re always just borrowing from what exists. Flashes of ingenuity and progress can come from unexpected mixtures.

To that end, from a creative perspective, it’s far better to look at what others are doing already and pick and choose what I will from their mistakes or their triumphs, and make it my own by arranging it uniquely. Sharing and receiving knowledge shouldn’t be considered a bad thing, it should be celebrated, and I doubt any proper creative person would be angry that their works inspired me to improve my own vision. You do a thing enough and you learn how hard it is just to get an idea you really believe in out there in the first place

Being stolen is another thing (I detest stolen, low-effort, or thoughtless “art”), but that’s a tangled mess of copyright infringement and philosophy and “What even is art?” so I’m not about to get into that

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33 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Can you increase your toughness to the point of being a god in DOOM eternal?

Doom Guy basically IS a god. dude has slayed TITANS that make Eidolons look like flies, and rips demons apart without even needing a weapon (warframes need at least Sparring covers on hands & feet, or must use powers at a distance.)

if there's one thing I'd like warframe to takle from DOOM, it's glory kills. the Parazon finishers are OK, but I'd like them gorier, and I'd like them to be done with our regular melees. it would be glorious!

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Embrace the tank my friend; Not requiring me to pick you up every time an enemy shoots you is hardly "nerfing yourself". 

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18 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

Doom Guy basically IS a god. dude has slayed TITANS that make Eidolons look like flies, and rips demons apart without even needing a weapon (warframes need at least Sparring covers on hands & feet, or must use powers at a distance.)

But can you survive many shots to the point of being nigh immortal like we do in warframe?

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1 minute ago, 844448 said:

But can you survive many shots to the point of being nigh immortal like we do in warframe?

well, that's different, since it's only really certain warframes that can truly reach that level of tankiness. you can put every damage reducing mod there is on a Banshee prime, she'll still get killed pretty quickly, because she's meant to be a glass cannon. Doomguy is probably as durable as a squishier warframe, someone like Inaros though, definitely more resilient than doomguy. ultimatley I'd say it depends on which warframe you compare him to: there's lots of warframes, there's only one doom guy.

also, memes.  Doom Guy is too angry to die, that's a known fact. his body is 99.9% pure hatred for demons, that's all he needs to keep him going.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

also, memes.  Doom Guy is too angry to die, that's a known fact. his body is 99.9% pure hatred for demons, that's all he needs to keep him going.

What’s the .1% that’s not hatred? Care for his best friend Isabelle? 😛 

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Every time warframe tries to "learn" things from other games, it seems to perpetually result in completely terrible results, because DE never actually understands how to make those mechanics work, so we just get half-assed things shoved in that don't add anything.

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6 minutes ago, 844448 said:

But can you survive many shots to the point of being nigh immortal like we do in warframe?

I understand the appeal for being un-killable, but eventually that gets old and can remove any challenging aspects of a game. Sure it's fun for a bit, but then some people want to have more of a challenge. 

I would not say it has to either be really challenging (close to doom) or easy like it currently is, I'm saying it would be nice to have an option to bump the difficulty. Think of now as easy mode and my D:E (doom eternal) suggestions as medium or hard. In order to add more incentive, the higher the difficulty, the better the rewards and higher the drop chances for rarer items/mods.

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

Banshee prime, she'll still get killed pretty quickly, because she's meant to be a glass cannon.

I think with arcane guardian/ultimatum for extra armor, arcane victory for health regen on headshot and adaptation can help quite a lot to not being a glass cannon. Now imagine if the doomguy managed to secure one of the arcanes somehow if that doesn't make him unable to die

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2 minutes ago, OvisCaedo said:

Every time warframe tries to "learn" things from other games, it seems to perpetually result in completely terrible results, because DE never actually understands how to make those mechanics work, so we just get half-assed things shoved in that don't add anything.

you do make a good point. They need to look at the base game loop and fix that first. If done right, Doom Eternal could have some ideas that can serve as inspiration as to how to freshen the game loop and keep it engaging.

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17 minutes ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

you do make a good point. They need to look at the base game loop and fix that first. If done right, Doom Eternal could have some ideas that can serve as inspiration as to how to freshen the game loop and keep it engaging.

I heartily agree that Doom Eternal is an excellent example of good game design, everything from their gameplay loop to visual and audio cues.

I do hope you’re tempering your expectations on anything that DE could borrow from what Doom does well; Doom’s got an incredible assembly of mechanics that they’d been able to focus on singularly for years, all in a shiny recent game engine.

DE are having to work under the stress of pumping out whatever they can to try and keep player counts and cash flow coming, since their parent company is really on-board with the whole Games as a Service thing. I don’t know if Warframe’s gone through a complete engine overhaul (which is a much huger deal than just making the graphics look prettier), but if it hasn’t it’s an engine that’s over 7 years old by now, and most likely messy and tough to use compared to what we’ve got now after lessons learned over 7 years.

Just a sort of “Hope for the best, but plan for the possible” sort of sentiment

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1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I heartily agree that Doom Eternal is an excellent example of good game design, everything from their gameplay loop to visual and audio cues.

I do hope you’re tempering your expectations on anything that DE could borrow from what Doom does well; Doom’s got an incredible assembly of mechanics that they’d been able to focus on singularly for years, all in a shiny recent game engine.

DE are having to work under the stress of pumping out whatever they can to try and keep player counts and cash flow coming. I don’t know if Warframe’s gone through a complete engine overhaul (which is a much huger deal than just making the graphics look prettier), but if it hasn’t it’s an engine that’s over 7 years old by now.

Honestly I would not be surprised with the engine they used based on there spaghetti code problem. If they took time to use a new engine to rebuild warframe on while getting rid of any spaghetti code, I would actually pay $100 just to play if that's what it would take. Half of me believes they can't do half of what they want because the engine or coding causes it all to collapse. 

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1 hour ago, 844448 said:

- Can you increase your damage output through some means to reach insane damage output to the point of able to kill a giant with one shot in DOOM eternal?

The Crucible, BFG, & Unmaykr don't count?

Well, the shotgun does have the full-auto upgrade which does a lot of damage, killing an Arachnotron in only a few seconds

The ballista where both upgrades do incredible amount of damage too, the Destroyer Blade alone can kill all enemies in front of you with only one shot

The scope mod for the machine gun can kill another Arachnotron in only three shots, again, one of the toughest enemies

The rocket launcher too has been significantly buffed since DOOM 2016

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

- Can you increase your toughness to the point of being a god in DOOM eternal?

I think that's one of the things OP was talking about, in warframe, it's all or nothing

Either you one-shot, or you get one-shot, not very entertaining

The mobility in Doom Eternal is pretty spot on, in warframe the bullet jump feels slow, & the roll is pretty useless in battles. Enemies also all have one or two weaknesses that you can take advantage of to make the fight way easier, while in warframe one enemy is barely different from another, warframe has a lot of enemies (just look at the codex to see), but they pretty much all come down to: "shoot until dead"

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

- Less grindy because it's a single player, linear game where you play to the end, and that's it other than playing on higher difficulty which I doubt will be something more than increased health and damage on enemies to make them harder

That's were you're wrong, DOOM Eternal has replayability, either for getting more weapon points by killing demons, or looking for the secret encounters & secret areas to kill more demons & get suit tokens, (I don't count collectibles)

Also, I don't know if you played it, but a whole system has been set up that gets you points for just playing normally (singleplayer & battlemode) which gives you new stuff over time, so yes, it is in the category of grind

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22 minutes ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

Honestly I would not be surprised with the engine they used based on there spaghetti code problem. If they took time to use a new engine to rebuild warframe on while getting rid of any spaghetti code, I would actually pay $100 just to play if that's what it would take. Half of me believes they can't do half of what they want because the engine or coding causes it all to collapse. 

Yeah. I feel the same way about wondering about how difficult it is to realise grand ideas for them. I strongly doubt it’s incompetence, like I’ve seen others claim.

I do like the mercy kills, personally, and I think they’re implemented okay. I’ve read through threads talking about how to improve the mercy kill experience, and good ideas were brought up (some were word-for-word what I’d thought as well), theoretically tested, and ultimately found wanting for one good reason or another.

Can’t imagine what a risky endeavour a complete engine overhaul would be like for them, though I’d love to see the results (and I’m sure they would too.)

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10 minutes ago, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

The Crucible, BFG, & Unmaykr don't count?

Well, the shotgun does have the full-auto upgrade which does a lot of damage, killing an Arachnotron in only a few seconds

The ballista where both upgrades do incredible amount of damage too, the Destroyer Blade alone can kill all enemies in front of you with only one shot

The scope mod for the machine gun can kill another Arachnotron in only three shots, again, one of the toughest enemies

The rocket launcher too has been significantly buffed since DOOM 2016

I think that's one of the things OP was talking about, in warframe, it's all or nothing

Either you one-shot, or you get one-shot, not very entertaining

The mobility in Doom Eternal is pretty spot on, in warframe the bullet jump feels slow, & the roll is pretty useless in battles. Enemies also all have one or two weaknesses that you can take advantage of to make the fight way easier, while in warframe one enemy is barely different from another, warframe has a lot of enemies (just look at the codex to see), but they pretty much all come down to: "shoot until dead"

That's were you're wrong, DOOM Eternal has replayability, either for getting more weapon points by killing demons, or looking for the secret encounters & secret areas to kill more demons & get suit tokens, (I don't count collectibles)

Also, I don't know if you played it, but a whole system has been set up that gets you points for just playing normally (singleplayer & battlemode) which gives you new stuff over time, so yes, it is in the category of grind

This is exactly what I was trying to say! Thank you so much for actually making sense of what I was saying. If warframe had something like what doom has in the game-play loop it would be way more fun!

I like Tenno like you.

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

This is exactly what I was trying to say! Thank you so much for actually making sense of what I was saying. If warframe had something like what doom has in the game-play loop it would be way more fun!

I like Tenno like you.

Well, like a lot of people already said, DOOM Eternal is a bit like Dark Souls or Perfect Dark, it's a game that will have a major impact on games overhaul

I can see that the parazon finishers are just like DOOM 2016, enemy low on health > finish move, but that turned out to be pretty disappointing

I only got 40 hours right now in DOOM Eternal, but damn it is a good game, I usually don't like multiplayer in games, but Battlemode is so much fun too

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2 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Do you think you're the first person to say that one game should do what x other game did?

How would you feel if you were dating someone and they said "My ex did this better than you, take a page from his book teehee" lmao

Well, that depends on context a little doesn't it. If it's a first date and you're complaining about technique you're probably the baddie...

But "at least my ex didn't screw me over at every opportunity!"? Usually when someone gets to the point of saying that, the dissatisfaction has been running very deep for quite some time.

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I also wanted pokemon to learn from others rpg games. But its a lost case now.

If you love a franchise or videogame, eventually you will see it turn into pure trash. Warframe is no even the worst.

Money ruins everything

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Doom is a very simple game in comparison. It's just pretty to look at. Most of the effort probably wasn't even in the coding but the asset creation, enemy and level design. Warframe has too many features that I don't think any game company in existence would be able to rectify other than DE. Also don't forget is that there is no copy and paste template for Warframe. Doom is basically your stock standard Unreal shooter that anyone can make a similar game, just not as pretty. Other great games have also had years of iteration before their current version. They weren't trying anything new and were merely refining. Warframe is doing the same thing, difference is that they don't charge you $60+ for every update.

Now don't misunderstand that I'm ragging on Doom. It's an awesome game but it's awesome because it's simple, and polished. Warframe is neither. Only way Warframe could be anything like Doom is if they removed all the Warframes but one. Or compromise, there is only one Warframe that you can customize appearance and abilities.

I do think Warframe is in need of a bigger overhaul than just mere balancing fixes. As someone stated above, the core gameplay loop should be looked at or even reworked from the ground up. There is no point on building on a poor, broken, or outdated foundation.

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