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(XB1)WafflyLearner89

Could Warframe learn a thing or two from DOOM: eternal? (slight rant)

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3 hours ago, supernils said:

Warframe enemies don't require a lot of tactical adaptation, that's the problem. The only ones on top of my mind are those with the big shield sphere around them, where you need to get inside.

Then maybe you have the ancient infested, and the heavy gunners, which don't require special tactic, just priority mow down.

From time to time a Grineer uses one of those turrets, that's kinda neat because you have to get behind him. That could be another option, a regular enemy that you have to stagger to kill him from behind.

Or an infested where you have to destroy weak points before you can kill him. Or even a Corpus unit with the same mechanic, a device carried on the belt that boosts his shield by a factor of 100.

Or an emeny that absolutely forces you to use melee to block/deflect his attacks to get near him without dying, or maybe some sort of ray that pushes you back would be less frustrating than pure kill damage.

Things like that, Warframe lacks.

When I played Destiny 2 (nother game comparison) for a tiny little bit I liked that you got several Mini Bosses in the levels, like in MMORPGs. In Warframe it's just trash mob hordes it feels.

Exactly! 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

While usually it's not advisable to put any two games together and say one should be more like the other, I do think the OP's comparisons are valid, because they rely on specific points of commonality between two otherwise very different games. Both Doom: Eternal and Warframe offer a power fantasy, for example, and in fact D:E leans even more heavily on it by constantly bringing up just how terrifyingly powerful the Slayer is. However, Doom still manages to deliver gameplay that can be adjusted to be challenging, and even when on easier difficulty modes is still engaging and interactive. By contrast, Warframe's gameplay is notoriously unchallenging even in content that is supposed to present a challenge, to the point where it's usually so trivial a geared-up player can go through it on autopilot. Thus, the conclusion we can derive from Doom is that a power fantasy is not an excuse for a lack of challenge, and a game can offer both a power fantasy and stimulating gameplay.

I think the other observation one can make is that Doom: Eternal does in fact have better coherence between its movement system and its level design: Warframe is known for its parkour system, arguably the best movement system in video game history... yet that parkour system only works to its full potential in a handful of tilesets. Most of the levels we run are made up of cramped environments with very little verticality, and our combat not only doesn't really tie into parkour, but often discourages us from moving and shooting at the same time due to the many ways we're made to stand still. Similarly, the enemy design in D:E is genuinely much more varied, despite Warframe's much larger number of units, and their design also encourages the player to move around constantly. Thus, the lesson to be learned here is that Warframe's environment and enemy design ought to shift to complement its movement system, rather than stifle it.

Really, I don't think these are big revelations, because these are conclusions people have drawn before, independently of Doom's existence. However, the release of Doom: Eternal does shine a new light on these long-standing issues with Warframe, and I think easily dispels certain myths some of us have chosen to weave around the state of the game's design. Specifically, many of us seem to have chosen to believe that Warframe cannot afford to offer non-trivial combat because it would run counter to the game's power fantasy, a design philosophy that makes no sense on its own, but comes across as all the more blinkered when one takes into account the many, many games out there that offer both a power fantasy and a challenge. For sure, one can point out that essentially any game is a very different beast compared to Warframe, but that alone is not grounds to dismiss valuable lessons to be learned when appropriate. While certain drastic changes would likely be needed, Warframe could orient itself towards providing a genuine challenge without compromising on its power fantasy (I personally believe it could even make the power fantasy greater in that manner), and could definitely stand to update some of its older level, mission, and enemy design to better accommodate our parkour, particularly as doing so has already proven to be tremendously successful with The Jovian Concord update.

This is also true. So many other games use their parkour system as part of level design to make it more fun to move around! Warframe does not give you advantages to try using parkour for anything besides getting from point a to point be faster! Heck, being able to use bullet jump to at least DODGE lethal damage would be nice!

2 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

Really, the entire reason Doom is so much more satisfying than Warframe is simple: Balance. Id clearly had a well though out plan that they followed from beginning to end with both the new Doom games. This allowed them to make sure that every part of the game fits together properly. The amount of damage the weapons do matches the enemy health, the amount of ammo fits the player damage output and enemy counts, the amount of health pickups matches how dangerous the levels are, etc. These are all important things to make a game properly balanced, and therefore challenging and engaging. And DE has done none of them with Warframe.

They have clearly never had any kind of long term plans for this game. Every new thing they add was just some crazy idea they came up with and said "why not?". There are so many mechanics that have no reason to exist beyond being "cool", so there is no connection or balance between them. Like how, as @Teridax68 mentioned, movement and map design conflict with each other. This is why powercreep has become such a problem, and creating any kind of endgame is impossible. DE never bothered to decide on a specific point to balance the game's challenge around, so there isn't one. They have tried to hide behind the infinite enemy scaling in endless missions to cover this up, but that isn't nearly enough. You can't balance an infinite scale, and you can't have an endgame if there is no end.

Plus, since DE has been making the same game for 7 years, they have simply been piling everything new on top of all their old mistakes. And, thanks to their complete lack of planning, every update has no regard for how it might break or unbalance the old parts of the game. This is one of the main advantages sequels, like Doom Eternal, have over "live services" like Warframe. They let the developers hit the big reset button every once in a while, so they can undo past mistakes, instead of just sweeping all their spaghetti code under the rug and hoping no one notices.

This is winner winner chicken dinner! I am all for nerfing our damage and readjusting enemy damage, heath, A.I, and what ever else to help make it feel more satisfying to fight the usual enemies. Gonna be honest, they need to redo the enemy types cause there as vast as an ocean but as deep as a puddle. 

Scarlet Spear proves just that as well. I have heard little to no praise for the event and know that all these new sentient enemies are probably not different enough since you probably can just mow them down with damage, nukes or Crowd Control LIKE EVERY OTHER ENEMY IN THIS GAME!!!

Honestly, it might be best to turn the upcoming new war into a full blown sequel to allow for DE to hit that big reset button. Only then could they remove the spaghetti code problem and do the needed changes to the game play loop to make warframe a lot more fun in the long run.

 

I like these Tenno. They know whats up.

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The problems Warframe experiences in presenting challenge DOOM fixes in ways that would require Warframe to fundamentally change how it works.  And I'm not talking glory kills (which we get in parazon mercy kills if you let up on the trigger in time.)

First: Some enemies in Warframe have hit scan attacks.  EVERYTHING in Doom can be dodged.  Everything.  Ultra-Nightmare virtually hinges on the concept that you basically take no damage through the entire play through or take it so sparingly you can fully recover between every instance of being hit.  But back to Warframe - a lot of the enemy design is piss poor.  Mostly recolors with attacks that are either hitscan or still too fast to dodge if you're not already moving really fast and just very difficult to read (see - Toxic ancient aura, Napalm/Bombard projectile and AoE, etc.)  Basically look into a horde of 2-3 different silhouettes and spray into them.

Second: Because our equipment selection on any given mission is extremely limited, enemies have to be fairly generic by default.  DOOM can get away with all these interesting enemies partly because it KNOWS you're carrying a machine gun/rocklet rifle/sniper rifle, a shotgun/grenade launcher/gatling gun, rocket launcher with homing or remote detonation, plasma rifle with a lock down beam and an AoE blast, a railgun that can sweep a line of enemies or prime them to be a bomb, etc.  Warframe we get to carry 2 guns, a melee weapon, and on occasion a bigger gun that's cumbersome to equip and use. 

Ergo, Warframe suffers the same dilemma as most MMO's in that enemies have to be generically approached because it can't trust we're carrying a bow or an AoE weapon (even in the form of a warframe) at all times in the same way World of Warcraft can't really give Paladins all this awesome power against undead but make them so-so against everything else, they have to be generically powerful overall to work.  At best right now, Warframe can release more weapons with secondary attacks in the same vein as the Corinth or Fulmin where the fire modes feel like fundamentally different weapons as opposed to the Tiberon Prime or Kuva Hind, and DE is criminally NOT taking advantage of that approach in their weapon design.

Between these two elements I'd say the bulk of Warframe's challenge issues reveal themselves.  Yeah, being near god mode or locking down an entire tileset with CC also rails against the challenge, but they only exacerbate the core issue in that Warframe's combat is pretty flatly generic and "safe."  It's 1995 Doom... only even less methodical, more spammy and mindless.

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30 minutes ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

This is also true. So many other games use their parkour system as part of level design to make it more fun to move around! Warframe does not give you advantages to try using parkour for anything besides getting from point a to point be faster!

That's not completely true, in the Saturn (Jupiter?) tile set they revamped a couple of months ago they built in parts where you have to cross large gaps, wall run / bullet jump etc

I hope the Corpus tile set which they are currently revamping will have similar features but I really look forward to it because the Saturn revamp was an awesome job.

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33 minutes ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

Plus, since DE has been making the same game for 7 years, they have simply been piling everything new on top of all their old mistakes

Warframe revised? I mean I agree, but now is exactly not the time to complain about that. They're doing it.

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3 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

Really, the entire reason Doom is so much more satisfying than Warframe is simple: Balance. Id clearly had a well though out plan that they followed from beginning to end with both the new Doom games. This allowed them to make sure that every part of the game fits together properly. The amount of damage the weapons do matches the enemy health, the amount of ammo fits the player damage output and enemy counts, the amount of health pickups matches how dangerous the levels are, etc. These are all important things to make a game properly balanced, and therefore challenging and engaging. And DE has done none of them with Warframe

Warframe is clearly harder to balance than Doom. Doom is a single player start to finish theme park. Warframe is a Multiplayer game supposed to keep you playing indefinitely. But I agree that there are balancing issues.

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35 minutes ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

This is also true. So many other games use their parkour system as part of level design to make it more fun to move around! Warframe does not give you advantages to try using parkour for anything besides getting from point a to point be faster! Heck, being able to use bullet jump to at least DODGE lethal damage would be nice!

There is in fact an element of dodging in that enemies will be less accurate against a rapidly-moving player, but part of the problem is that enemy accuracy scales with their level, and many enemies have hitscan weapons: as such, even in a system originally designed to let the player evade damage through parkour, the game reaches a state where the player will randomly get hit even when moving as fast as they can (and, coupled with higher status chance on enemy weapons at higher levels, this also means even more damage through Slash procs in addition to the damage scaling). Removing hitscan weaponry altogether and adjusting the formula for enemy accuracy would go a long way towards letting players properly dodge damage, as currently we're expected to tank it through either shield gating or massive amounts of EHP through base stats or steroids.

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2 hours ago, supernils said:

Warframe revised? I mean I agree, but now is exactly not the time to complain about that. They're doing it.

You are absolutely right! However, they also released the scarlet spear operation which was not well received to say the least. Also, we don't know how deep their revisions will be or if it will address the right issues. I really hope they do, but they should really consider putting off the new war if it is going to be anything like the recent operation. Short term sacrifice for long term profit with a more stable and re-playable game.

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3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

There is in fact an element of dodging in that enemies will be less accurate against a rapidly-moving player, but part of the problem is that enemy accuracy scales with their level, and many enemies have hitscan weapons: as such, even in a system originally designed to let the player evade damage through parkour, the game reaches a state where the player will randomly get hit even when moving as fast as they can (and, coupled with higher status chance on enemy weapons at higher levels, this also means even more damage through Slash procs in addition to the damage scaling). Removing hitscan weaponry altogether and adjusting the formula for enemy accuracy would go a long way towards letting players properly dodge damage, as currently we're expected to tank it through either shield gating or massive amounts of EHP through base stats or steroids.

You must've missed the patch notes where they rebalanced and capped how accurate enemies become.

As far as hitscan goes, aim faster, shoot faster, break line of sight and re-engage. They don't instantly snap fire, you've got about a second or so to the kill the enemy once you enter their optimal range.

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Want to play Doom Eternal in Warframe? Get a Amprex and Nukor without any ammo mutations mods and max fire rate and a melee with no mods. Sadly you can't get that keep one imp alive so you can chainsaw it for ammo but other than that it'll be a perfect simulation.

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27 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

Want to play Doom Eternal in Warframe? Get a Amprex and Nukor without any ammo mutations mods and max fire rate and a melee with no mods. Sadly you can't get that keep one imp alive so you can chainsaw it for ammo but other than that it'll be a perfect simulation.

That is not what I mean. Doom Eternal has level design that takes advantage of it's parkour system, provides unique enemies with different designs that require different ways of taking them down, an interesting mod system for doom's weapons, challenging game play that is satisfying and rewarding. Things that warframe needs in it's basic game loop to help keep it fresh and replayable. The most recent operation highlights the problem.

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3 minutes ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

That is not what I mean. Doom Eternal has level design that takes advantage of it's parkour system, provides unique enemies with different designs that require different ways of taking them down, an interesting mod system for doom's weapons, challenging game play that is satisfying and rewarding. Things that warframe needs in it's basic game loop to help keep it fresh and replayable. The most recent operation highlights the problem.

And warframe has everything of that already. Maps with a lot of shortcut layouts you can go if you bullet jump and know where to go, weapon modding and tons of different weapons. It's just that the game is super easy once you get those mods and coz amount of gear there is a lot of stuff is super cheesable. Which is something Doom suffers from as well.

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17 hours ago, OvisCaedo said:

Every time warframe tries to "learn" things from other games, it seems to perpetually result in completely terrible results, because DE never actually understands how to make those mechanics work, so we just get half-assed things shoved in that don't add anything.

Agree
Kuva Lich is a example
F***k kuva Lich

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Just now, ChaosSabre said:

And warframe has everything of that already. Maps with a lot of shortcut layouts you can go if you bullet jump and know where to go, weapon modding and tons of different weapons. It's just that the game is super easy once you get those mods and coz amount of gear there is a lot of stuff is super cheesable. Which is something Doom suffers from as well.

From what I heard, DOOM is only cheesable when you play on a difficulty lower than nightmare. At nightmare beyond, it becomes more of a combat puzzle where you have to use all weapons at disposal and can't just rely on one method to handle every enemy. In warframe, you usually can crowd control or nuke everything which eventually becomes boring but mainly used regardless. 

I am aware of how warframe has what doom has, but Doom Eternal does it better in a more satisfying way that can be challenging yet fun and rewarding. The mods are also a lot more interesting in Doom Eternal than warframe and are gained through progression rather than randomly finding mods that you have to upgrade. apply forma to your weapon to allow for space, etc.

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1 hour ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

You must've missed the patch notes where they rebalanced and capped how accurate enemies become.

... which implies that enemy accuracy still increases with level. I am well aware of the patch notes; I am simply pointing out that the problem persists even after those changes, as can be assessed by playing the game.

Quote

As far as hitscan goes, aim faster, shoot faster, break line of sight and re-engage. They don't instantly snap fire, you've got about a second or so to the kill the enemy once you enter their optimal range.

Please demonstrate how this immunizes the player against enemy fire in an actual in-game scenario, where combat is typically not based around darting to and from cover every literal second.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

From what I heard, DOOM is only cheesable when you play on a difficulty lower than nightmare. At nightmare beyond, it becomes more of a combat puzzle where you have to use all weapons at disposal and can't just rely on one method to handle every enemy. In warframe, you usually can crowd control or nuke everything which eventually becomes boring but mainly used regardless. 

I am aware of how warframe has what doom has, but Doom Eternal does it better in a more satisfying way that can be challenging yet fun and rewarding. The mods are also a lot more interesting in Doom Eternal than warframe and are gained through progression rather than randomly finding mods that you have to upgrade. apply forma to your weapon to allow for space, etc.

Nah you only got one option in Doom Eternal. Use all your guns till they run out of ammo then find that one lone imp to refill it once you are out. Also enemy AI doesn't know how to deal with columns plus conga lines so you can exploit that on all difficulties. The only difference is that you'll be mashing the dash button all the time on higher ones and enemies are more aggressive. Warframe needs to make you play it more and have more repetition plus monetization options. They need to earn money somehow with time savers. You can't really compare those upgrade progressions the same way. It's like saying why doesn't Warframe have the leveling system from Dark Souls and weapon stat affinities.

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4 hours ago, supernils said:

Warframe is clearly harder to balance than Doom. Doom is a single player start to finish theme park. Warframe is a Multiplayer game supposed to keep you playing indefinitely. But I agree that there are balancing issues.

Yeah, the multiplayer aspect of Warframe does make balancing it more difficult than a single player game like Doom. But, it also makes it even more important.

In a single player game, you can always intentionally handicap yourself to make things more challenging. Like never using the BFG, or never taking any weapon upgrades or whatever. But in a multiplayer game, you have to get everyone you might play with to agree to your limitations as well. It doesn't matter if you bring your weak, un-catalyzed weapons to match the low level mission you're doing if someone else brings all their best stuff. You will just end up getting left behind while they instantly nuke everything. So it ends up being up to the game creators to make sure that can't happen.

I wish I knew where I heard it, but I once heard a great quote about this: Given the chance, players will optimize the fun right out of a game. This is where things like the meta, and dominant strategies come from. In general, players will always use the best thing they can. Given the choice between a pea shooter, or a nuke, they will almost always choose the nuke. Doesn't matter if the nuke completely ruins the game, and makes it super boring, it will still be the most popular choice.

This is why I don't use Rivens or Arcanes. They make you way more powerful then you need to be. The only reward you get for all the time and effort spent farming them is that the game becomes less fun, because its now even easier than it already was. But having to intentionally skip out on whole sections of the game like that to avoid ruining everything for myself is terrible design.

This is also another perfect example of a part of Warframe that has no reason to exist. There is no balance, because they are a counterpoint without a point. Whenever a player gains more power, it should be to overcome the ever greater challenge they are about to face. But there is nothing like that for Rivens or Arcanes. This game never gets tough enough that you require the massive power boosts these items offer. I have never once felt like I needed either of them in the entire time I have played this game. They basically feel like chat codes that you have to grind for. But, because of Warframe being a multiplayer game, I still can't completely avoid these cheat codes. If I join a squad where someone else has this power, it still makes things way easier for me, whether I want it or not.

And, unfortunately, there is one key thing that will always keep Warframe like this: The grind. Challenge means that there is a decent chance of failure. But failure doesn't fit with a super grindy game, because failure means missing out on loot chances, which is super frustrating. This is why almost everyone takes the most powerful loadout into every mission no matter what. Its just more efficient that way. And with a grind like this, doing it efficiently is the only thing that matters.

So there will never be balance, and never be challenge. There will never be the engaging gameplay loop that those two things can bring. Because DE would much rather take the lazy way out and make a grind, not a game.

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4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

There is in fact an element of dodging in that enemies will be less accurate against a rapidly-moving player, but part of the problem is that enemy accuracy scales with their level, and many enemies have hitscan weapons: as such, even in a system originally designed to let the player evade damage through parkour, the game reaches a state where the player will randomly get hit even when moving as fast as they can (and, coupled with higher status chance on enemy weapons at higher levels, this also means even more damage through Slash procs in addition to the damage scaling). Removing hitscan weaponry altogether and adjusting the formula for enemy accuracy would go a long way towards letting players properly dodge damage, as currently we're expected to tank it through either shield gating or massive amounts of EHP through base stats or steroids.

Making most, if not all weapons hitscan is lazy game design. This, along with fully recharging health, is the main reason why almost all shooters since Halo came out have been so boring. Hitscan weapons are basically too good to be fun. The only way to keep them from being overpowered is to introduce other huge limitations, like random inaccuracy and aim bloom. But that takes too much skill away from the player, and makes hitting things more about luck than anything else.

Most good enemy interactions come from the counterplay opportunities they present. The enemy does something, and the player has to do something to deal with it. Hitscan weapons rarely allow for good counter actions, because not getting hit is more about luck, than skill. You can't see the enemy's attacks coming and react, you just have to cross your fingers and hope you don't get hit. And simply having "shoot them first" as the best option in every situation isn't exactly interesting, either.

Hitscan does have its place, though. Like when you have a specific counter to it, like the pipe bombs in Duke Nukem 3D. The hitscan enemies in that are devastating in open combat, because its nearly impossible to avoid getting hit by them. But, the pipe bombs let you attack them indirectly, so if you do it right, they can't shoot back. Perfect counterplay.

But, of course, Waframe just took the easy way out. Most player weapons are hitscan, and most of the enemies are hitscan, because simply asking hit? yes/no is much easier than coding the bounce arc of a grenade, or the turn rate of a homing missile. But its also nowhere near as fun. And no matter how they tune the random inaccuracy of the enemies, it won't really help in the end, because combat will still be more about rolling dice than being good.

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3 hours ago, ChaosSabre said:

Nah you only got one option in Doom Eternal. Use all your guns till they run out of ammo then find that one lone imp to refill it once you are out. Also enemy AI doesn't know how to deal with columns plus conga lines so you can exploit that on all difficulties. The only difference is that you'll be mashing the dash button all the time on higher ones and enemies are more aggressive. Warframe needs to make you play it more and have more repetition plus monetization options. They need to earn money somehow with time savers. You can't really compare those upgrade progressions the same way. It's like saying why doesn't Warframe have the leveling system from Dark Souls and weapon stat affinities.

You never played the newest doom then. Especially not on nightmare. 

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25 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

You never played the newest doom then. Especially not on nightmare. 

Didn't play Nightmare coz I have no interest in that. But saw people doing it. Played on Hurt Me Plenty here. Only difference I noticed is that you gotta dash all the time coz stuff hits like a truck.

And seriously lead a Marauder near a column if you don't believe me you can't exploit AI easily in that.

 

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6 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

Making most, if not all weapons hitscan is lazy game design. This, along with fully recharging health, is the main reason why almost all shooters since Halo came out have been so boring. Hitscan weapons are basically too good to be fun. The only way to keep them from being overpowered is to introduce other huge limitations, like random inaccuracy and aim bloom. But that takes too much skill away from the player, and makes hitting things more about luck than anything else.

I largely agree with this post: I think hitscan weaponry, like regenerating health, can have its place, as you mentioned, it's just that Warframe is really not good at accommodating it: in a standard shooter, it's fine for the player's weapons to be hitscan, and even for the enemy's, provided that there is a good enough system of health recovery and cover, because projectiles won't make a difference in most mid- to close-range combat with slow overall movement. Warframe, on the other hand, has combat at all ranges, doesn't give the player any stable innate ways of recovering health, and is completely out of balance: this means hitscan weaponry on players has to be balanced out in open worlds by damage falloff, a mechanic that kills diverse gameplay in the name of attempted balance, whereas hitscan weaponry on enemies is directly responsible for screwing over frames that don't have major survivability tools, even though our main means of survivability is supposed to be movement.

Really, I think it would be to the game's significant benefit if a) all hitscan weapons were given fast-moving projectiles, b) our weapons had perfect accuracy by default,  c) our essential multishot mods were removed and compensated for, d) damage falloff were removed, and e) enemies became significantly less accurate than now while we parkour. We'd depend less on steroids to survive, and our weapons would feel a lot cleaner to use, with less technical load overall with the reduced multishot (which itself achieves nothing really in gameplay terms). At the very least, enemy weapons should not be hitscan, not unless enemies are made to be completely inaccurate while we're moving at full speed.

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17 hours ago, BRZZAFK said:

Maybe try to said that to your girl/boyfriend and see what happen? I mean if we talking about learning from other then you basically can learn from anything, even from bad things. But if we talking about lecturing other to learn then. That never end well.

Ok, good to know you're a troll. Have a nice day.

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23 hours ago, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

The Crucible, BFG, & Unmaykr don't count?

Well, the shotgun does have the full-auto upgrade which does a lot of damage, killing an Arachnotron in only a few seconds

The ballista where both upgrades do incredible amount of damage too, the Destroyer Blade alone can kill all enemies in front of you with only one shot

The scope mod for the machine gun can kill another Arachnotron in only three shots, again, one of the toughest enemies

The rocket launcher too has been significantly buffed since DOOM 2016

But what about the rest of the weapons? What about your pistol or other small arms? Can you boost their damage to catch up with the BFG?

On 2020-03-27 at 8:31 AM, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

I think that's one of the things OP was talking about, in warframe, it's all or nothing

Either you one-shot, or you get one-shot, not very entertaining

The mobility in Doom Eternal is pretty spot on, in warframe the bullet jump feels slow, & the roll is pretty useless in battles. Enemies also all have one or two weaknesses that you can take advantage of to make the fight way easier, while in warframe one enemy is barely different from another, warframe has a lot of enemies (just look at the codex to see), but they pretty much all come down to: "shoot until dead"

You want weaknesses like in DOOM? Oh, I can arrange that, probably with an enemy that requires you to use parazon or some strategy but remembering your condition on your previous thread, I don't think you can keep your focus on that enemy when you can't keep your focus from not stabbing the larvling and I doubt you won't complain later

On 2020-03-27 at 8:31 AM, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

That's were you're wrong, DOOM Eternal has replayability, either for getting more weapon points by killing demons, or looking for the secret encounters & secret areas to kill more demons & get suit tokens, (I don't count collectibles)

And what do you get from getting more weapon points after finishing the game once? And secret areas? Let's say secret areas that contain sabotage cache actually drop something ultra rare and exclusive, will you spend your time just to find them?

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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

I largely agree with this post: I think hitscan weaponry, like regenerating health, can have its place, as you mentioned, it's just that Warframe is really not good at accommodating it: in a standard shooter, it's fine for the player's weapons to be hitscan, and even for the enemy's, provided that there is a good enough system of health recovery and cover, because projectiles won't make a difference in most mid- to close-range combat with slow overall movement. Warframe, on the other hand, has combat at all ranges, doesn't give the player any stable innate ways of recovering health, and is completely out of balance: this means hitscan weaponry on players has to be balanced out in open worlds by damage falloff, a mechanic that kills diverse gameplay in the name of attempted balance, whereas hitscan weaponry on enemies is directly responsible for screwing over frames that don't have major survivability tools, even though our main means of survivability is supposed to be movement.

Really, I think it would be to the game's significant benefit if a) all hitscan weapons were given fast-moving projectiles, b) our weapons had perfect accuracy by default,  c) our essential multishot mods were removed and compensated for, d) damage falloff were removed, and e) enemies became significantly less accurate than now while we parkour. We'd depend less on steroids to survive, and our weapons would feel a lot cleaner to use, with less technical load overall with the reduced multishot (which itself achieves nothing really in gameplay terms). At the very least, enemy weapons should not be hitscan, not unless enemies are made to be completely inaccurate while we're moving at full speed.

As you said, hitscan weapons do have their place. But using them everywhere is just lazy, and offers no variety. Hitscan guns always tend to feel very similar to one another. This is why I think that the Unreal series has the best arsenal of weapons in any game. It has a mix of both hitscan and projectile weapons, and they each have a very well defined set of strengths and weaknesses that gives each one a specific role. But that becomes much harder to do when your game has a thousand weapons, like Warframe.  But I would much rather have an arsenal of seven amazing weapons, than a thousand bland ones.

I have also always respected Borderlands for using fast projectiles on most of its guns, instead of just hopping on the hitscan train like everyone else at the time. Its a small difference, since they are so fast, but it still matters. The little details like that are what make certain games truly great.

There also really needs to be more progression with the enemy types in Warframe. At low levels, you should only fight simple enemies with easy to deal with attacks, and move on to much tougher and more dangerous types at higher levels. The same way it works in Doom, or Dark Souls, or any decently challenging game. Good challenge progression doesn't come from just giving the same enemies higher stats, it mostly comes from making the player deal with entirely new and unknown threats. And If DE wants to give enemies hitscan weapons, they should save them for the toughest ones, not give them to the basic grunts. Because nearly unavoidable damage like that is a serous threat.

Also, movement is even more important when dealing with projectile weapons, so this would make all the fancy parkour maneuvers more important. The entire reason the original Doomguy is so hard to kill is that he can outrun almost every projectile attack in the game. But he still can't outrun the shotgun guy or chaingun guy's attacks, just like how the Tenno can't parkour away from the spray of a thousand Grakatas.

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I agree map design could use some more work. Warframe has a lot of 3 dimensions mobility but the map design is no better than a generic third person shooter. Use of parkour is unnecessary in most cases. Jupiter tileset rework was a step in right direction IMO but clearly DE can put more effort.

It's true that warframe enemies are largely uninteresting and is generally using the same pattern which is keep shooting until it's dead. Nox and Elite Shield Lancer were a nice try to introduce challenge but they can try to mix in hacking or Mercy too. Kuva Guardians are rather good for involving operators but it still feels pretty clunky to keep switching in/out. Could use more work. They can consider making minibosses which you will encounter once or twice in a mission which is difficult to take down but gives better rewards, as an optional challenge.

 

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The issue is that the only way to implement those things would be major nerfs. If you ever bother to scan all the sentients (or try to solo them taking your time), you'll see that they're all mechanically distinct and interesting fights in a nutshell. The issue is that we have novas and limbos to cc them to oblivion, invalidating them, every dps frame, being able to completely ignore any interesting mechanic the sentients may have and stealth frames that will never even be hit. All these things would have to be nerfed to be able to insert the level of gameplay DOOM offers into warframe. That's why, although a beautiful pipedream, I find this incredibly unlikely.

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