PVP Idea (hear me out lol)

[(XBOX)AlphaGuy113]

Let me start by saying that this may be a bit long winded.. This is an idea I have had for a long time now but I'm not much of a forum person so I have never expressed my opinions or ideas.

If any of these ideas have ever been mentioned I apologize. Please don't turn this into an verbal fighting ring. Just give opinions and concerns.

Keep it clean please 🙃

Weapons

Instead of trying to balance a ton of weapons.. why not stat weapons of the same type the exact same? That way players can add mods to change the fighting style and add elemental effects. For example, cold may slow the target & radiation can reduce healing. Add a 20 second immunity from the applied effect to the affected player. No mods for damage/speed/reload speed/fire rate.. for obvious reasons. As for weapon customization, if you have a weapon in the main game (PVE part of the game) max rank.. you unlock the skin for that weapon in conclave. Less time balancing weapons and now players can essentially bring whatever weapon they want into conclave (aesthetically of course)

Warframes & Abilities 

This is where it gets fun.. Abilities will need to be altered of course.. some frames will be easier than others. Allow the community to help with some of the ideas on how to change those abilities in exchange for a little plat or something? (Competition where the community votes for the winner) There are so many frames with so many unique abilities it will be extremely difficult for a small team to  make progress with this without a little help.. let the ones in the community that care for conclave help? I'm sure if needed you can "borrow" an ability animation from another warframe to save some resources as well. 

Obviously, we don't expect all Warframes to be available immediately.. 

Movement

Let's be honest.. we take pride in out abilities to traverse the terrain at near light speed but it's hard to shoot a highly caffeinated fly with an arrow. That being said, something needs to be done. I have a simple idea.. Slow..It..Down.. alot. I'm talkin slow enough for melee combat to be a battle, not jumping and sliding contest. There should be some story behind this. Such as.. the conclave is a training arena where Tenno hone their skills and get stronger so the gravity is altered creating the "slowed effect". There could be a switch that changes the gravity back to normal for a minute somewhere on the maps or a power up that you can pickup that will temporarily make you immune to the change in gravity.

There's my idea, do with it what you will. I have a few ideas for game types as well.. kind of pointless to go into that as the pvp system needs to be in working condition first. I would be happy with a 1v1 & 2v2 on a small map though.. like a 2 story dojo with an almost empty room.

To end I want to share why I decided to post this.. I obviously love Warframe and am amazed at how far it has come. I also LOVE PVP and find myself getting burned out completing the same style of missions. This makes me put it down and I may not play it again for several months. If there was a good pvp system I would no doubt play it more and be more inclined to make ingame purchases to help speed up the grind a little. 

Don't waste anyone's time by saying "If you want PVP then go play (insert game title here)".. trust me, I do. That is why I'm posting this in hopes of creating a change so that I dont feel obligated to do so. As I said before, I love Warframe.

+1 for my first post? 😅

Edited March 28, 2020 by (XB1)AlphaGuy113
There may have been a typo.. or 6. I did this from my phone mmkay!?

[krc473]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)AlphaGuy113 said:

+1 for my first post? 😅

Don’t waste people’s time by begging for rep. It is never a good idea.

7 minutes ago, (XB1)AlphaGuy113 said:

Let's be honest.. we take pride in out abilities to traverse the terrain at near light speed but it's hard to shoot a highly caffeinated fly with an arrow. That being said, something needs to be done. I have a simple idea.. Slow..It..Down.. alot

But what do we have if you take away our movement ability? That is what makes Warframe unique. Instead of making it like every other PvP type mode in other games, let it keep the thing that is unique to Warframe. The rest sounds sensible to me. I probably wouldn’t play it, but I am not much of a straight PvP fan. I prefer it when it involves taking castles/towers etc as well. See Elder scrolls online PvP.

[TARINunit9]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)AlphaGuy113 said:

To end I want to share why I decided to post this.. I obviously love Warframe and am amazed at how far it has come. I also LOVE PVP and find myself getting burned out completing the same style of missions. This makes me put it down and I may not play it again for several months. If there was a good pvp system I would no doubt play it more and be more inclined to make ingame purchases to help speed up the grind a little. 

Don't waste anyone's time by saying "If you want PVP then go play (insert game title here)".. trust me, I do. That is why I'm posting this in hopes of creating a change so that I dont feel obligated to do so. As I said before, I love Warframe.

+1 for my first post? 😅

I apologize in advance if you get any hostility over this.

See, Warframe is typically a refuge for people who DON'T enjoy PvP. So many games on the market, especially free2play ones, have a habit of making all the other content eventually circle back to the PvP content. They want you fighting other players. You're either A) eventually expected to stop "messing around" with that "baby" PvE stuff, and start playing the REAL game in PvP format, or B) not even given any PvE content in the main game, with it sometimes coming in years down the line

Warframe stands out from the crowd by not doing that. Warframe is a rare case of a game that lets you get a true feeling of 100% completion without a single match of PvP (excluding that Snowball Fight/Quick Steel experiment they did one year). This has a side effect of making many fans, who signed on for exactly that, incredibly hostile to the notion that the devs should "waste" their time doing ANYthing with the PvP. As if the continued existence of PvP in this game is the reason that Law of Retribution hasn't been re-added to the game

[(XBOX)AlphaGuy113]

I can respect that.

I appreciate your opinion and you have no doubt been in this community a bit more than I. When they approached pvp, they had a vision. This post is nothing more than my opinion on how to hopefully steer them closer to that vision vs cutting ties with the idea. 

[(XBOX)AlphaGuy113]

@krc473

I wasn't begging for rep, didnt even know it was a thing. Kind of an odd thing for someone to do tbh.. 

Sorry if it was unclear, I'm not suggesting removing mobility. Just making it so that  it is slowed down to the point where players have to block in combination with sliding around and jumping. As it stands, melee combat in conclave is 90% slide attack and come down from the heavens to to and split the planet into.

[krc473]

21 minutes ago, (XB1)AlphaGuy113 said:

Sorry if it was unclear, I'm not suggesting removing mobility. Just making it so that  it is slowed down to the point where players have to block in combination with sliding around and jumping. As it stands, melee combat in conclave is 90% slide attack and come down from the heavens to to and split the planet into.

This is what I mean. The fast paced mobility is what people want. If you slow it down you are just making it more like other games. This of course does depend on how slow you actually make it. I don’t know if this is a bad thing or not. Personally, I would rather keep it fast paced. Maybe I am not understanding what you mean, there isn’t really much information on what you want (ideally it would show videos, but that is impossible I know).

 

I would be happy with any PvP that was actually good, and still felt like I was playing Warframe. I have more ambitious suggestions, but let’s get a suitable base first.

[(XBOX)AlphaGuy113]

Think stamina bar. Something, anything that makes it so that you can't constantly hop around in PVP. "Slowing down" may not have been the correct terminology.. the current movement makes aiming incredibly difficult and melee combat can become similar to jousting on ice. 

PVP shouldn't be like PVE. I think too much time has went into weapon balancing in PVP vs hyper mobility. 

[Tyreaus]

15 hours ago, (XB1)AlphaGuy113 said:

Think stamina bar.

This used to be the case and has been floated and shot down many times in the past.

IMO I don't think mobility by itself is a problem. It's that mobility is, largely, risk-free. There isn't a point you wouldn't want to be hopping around. (Indeed, rolling provides damage reduction)

If hopping around makes players more vulnerable to damage, then they trade off speed for takiness mid-match. Considering there are PvP mods that literally have this effect, I don't think it's that far-fetched a concept.

As far as the rest of the OP goes: the general problem is DE wants PvP to act like PvE. So weapons have (just about) identical accuracy and fire rates, with modifications to clip sizes and damage. Is that necessarily a good idea? Probably not. I think allowing weapons to be more like skins for Conclave-specific weapons, as I think was suggested, would work much better. Simple isn't bad, especially when the crux of Conclave is in immediate action, not RPG numbers-crunching. Same goes for Warframe abilities, which are quite all-over-the-place in terms of efficacy (Hi Equinox).

I don't think weapons and Warframes should, at their core, be treated differently in terms of this revision. If weapons are going to be like skins for a few underlying Conclave weapons to make things simpler, Warframes should probably follow a similar suit. Give us auras that grant ability sets, for example. Or don't: go to the community to revise abilities. But then do the same for weapons. Why wouldn't you give them similar treatment?

Edited March 28, 2020 by Tyreaus

[Rubbertubtub01]

If y'all so worried about movement, DE could just put a cap on the mobility stat of maybe 1.0 or 0.9 and adjust the warframe ehp stats to suit. 

[TaigenRaine]

I think that because Warframe is a PVE game... the PVP in it should also be ..  PVE.

Conclave shows the issues of trying to balance Warframe combat against each other, but a competitive PVE style gamemode could be really fun.

Something like a gauntlet, you run a course with various enemies and mission types (so you can't just bring that one perfect frame for the content), and the run is scored based on time and kills or some such.  Maybe have bonus objectives so that you can inflict hazards on the opposing team if you complete them.  Could also be done in something like the simalacrum tileset with clear floors so you can see the other team and what kind of progress they are making (and better plan your hazards).  Would have to be as random as possible though to avoid building up a 'meta', but I think it could be a fun mode to give really OP players something to flex against each other with (though matches should definately be sorted by MR/playtime).

[Tachmag]

10 hours ago, TaigenRaine said:

I think that because Warframe is a PVE game... the PVP in it should also be ..  PVE.

 

Halo is a PvE game with PvP. 

CoD was a PvE game with PvP.

The Unreal series was originally PvE with a few PvP arenas tacked on.

 

That argument is invalid.

 

[TaigenRaine]

10 minutes ago, Tachmag said:

Halo is a PvE game with PvP. 

CoD was a PvE game with PvP.

The Unreal series was originally PvE with a few PvP arenas tacked on.

 

That argument is invalid.

 

Halo is a game where everyone has the same set of guns and the exact same health/armor/traits.

CoD is a game where everyone has the same set of guns and the exact same health/armor/traits.

Unreal series is a game where everyone has the same set of guns and the exact same health/armor/traits.

 

Warframe has 42 different characters with radically different abilities, hundreds of weapons that not everyone has access to, with different power levels and a modding system that can make those weapons vary from hardly any damage at all to one shotting enemies with thousands of EHP.  All of these weapons and abilities are designed to be used against NPCs with no thought on how it might work in a PVP sense.

To compare that to a standard FPS is absolute nonsense.  They tried to make a PVP section... even made seperate abilities for it because some just didn't work at all in a PVP context, and it absolutely flopped.  So other suggestions are absolutely valid.

[Tachmag]

31 minutes ago, TaigenRaine said:

Warframe has 42 different characters with radically different abilities, hundreds of weapons that not everyone has access to, with different power levels and a modding system that can make those weapons vary from hardly any damage at all to one shotting enemies with thousands of EHP.  All of these weapons and abilities are designed to be used against NPCs with no thought on how it might work in a PVP sense.

You realise PvE mods aren't in PvP, right? So you can't deal thousands of damage.

 

I do agree that there is a massive selection of weapons and frames, which makes PvP hard to balance. If it were up to me, I'd make a separate, more concise arsenal for PvE in order to facilitate balance.

[TaigenRaine]

3 minutes ago, Tachmag said:

You realise PvE mods aren't in PvP, right? So you can't deal thousands of damage.

 

I do agree that there is a massive selection of weapons and frames, which makes PvP hard to balance. If it were up to me, I'd make a separate, more concise arsenal for PvE in order to facilitate balance.

I was listing this as just part of the general challenge of translating the PVE game into the PVP game.  It is a nightmare, the attempt at it was a failure, and now every new frame and weapon they make they have to make twice - one for how it will work in the normal game and one for how it will work in conclave - despite the fact that barely anyone plays it.

[SpicyDinosaur]

On 2020-03-28 at 2:00 AM, TARINunit9 said:

I apologize in advance if you get any hostility over this.

See, Warframe is typically a refuge for people who DON'T enjoy PvP. So many games on the market, especially free2play ones, have a habit of making all the other content eventually circle back to the PvP content. They want you fighting other players. You're either A) eventually expected to stop "messing around" with that "baby" PvE stuff, and start playing the REAL game in PvP format, or B) not even given any PvE content in the main game, with it sometimes coming in years down the line

Warframe stands out from the crowd by not doing that. Warframe is a rare case of a game that lets you get a true feeling of 100% completion without a single match of PvP (excluding that Snowball Fight/Quick Steel experiment they did one year). This has a side effect of making many fans, who signed on for exactly that, incredibly hostile to the notion that the devs should "waste" their time doing ANYthing with the PvP. As if the continued existence of PvP in this game is the reason that Law of Retribution hasn't been re-added to the game

This is just your opinion and conjecture. If DE moved towards endgame PvP content, it would technically be the end game the try hard vets keep crying for. Not that they would appreciate it.

 

PvP is still there for a reason, some people like it. If you have stats to show regarding your statement, please do.

 

No one forces you to play Conclave.

 

Actually, why are you even in the conclave section. You don't even play the mode.

[SpicyDinosaur]

1 hour ago, TaigenRaine said:

I was listing this as just part of the general challenge of translating the PVE game into the PVP game.  It is a nightmare, the attempt at it was a failure, and now every new frame and weapon they make they have to make twice - one for how it will work in the normal game and one for how it will work in conclave - despite the fact that barely anyone plays it.

good to see someone with some real insight into the game. I await the charts you have that explain how many people regularly play PvP.

[TaigenRaine]

1 hour ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

good to see someone with some real insight into the game. I await the charts you have that explain how many people regularly play PvP.

I am so glad you recognise my insight.  Let me share some more of it with you since you are so interested in just how sparse participation in Conclave is.

I looked at the profiles of the top 100 of my clan.  My clan is a very generic one, it's not specialized in any content, so it is a fair representation of typical warframe playerbase.

Of those 100, 11 had the rank of Mistral (1 Rank up from 0, standing capped at 22000, requires 5000 standing to rank up to this.)

1 had a rank of Whirlwind (2 Ranks up from 0, requires 5000 then 22000 standing to rank up, capped at 44,000)

The remaining 89 have the rank of Neutral, which is rank 0, standing between 0 and 5000.  The vast majority of these had 0 standing.

So 12% of the top 100 of my clan had any meaningful progress in Conclave, and the very best is rank 2 out of 5.

Since you like charts, here you go:

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by TaigenRaine

[TARINunit9]

10 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

This is just your opinion and conjecture.

And a repeated pattern that has been consistent over the last four years whenever people make threads about PvP

[SpicyDinosaur]

Neither of you actually have access to any of the necessary data. Looking at some of your clan members or thinking you see a repeating pattern does not accurate data make.

 

You could be right for all I know, but your opinions are not coming from a reliable place.

 

None of that even matters, let people enjoy the game modes that exist, even if you don't like them. You are never forced to play PvP, it literally has no bearing on your enjoyment of the game.

[TaigenRaine]

53 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Neither of you actually have access to any of the necessary data. Looking at some of your clan members or thinking you see a repeating pattern does not accurate data make.

 

You could be right for all I know, but your opinions are not coming from a reliable place.

 

None of that even matters, let people enjoy the game modes that exist, even if you don't like them. You are never forced to play PvP, it literally has no bearing on your enjoyment of the game.

I didn't once say remove Conclave, and I didn't see any place Tarin did either.  You are literally arguing with your own insecurities.  However, since you brought it up, Conclave actually does have a bearing on my enjoyment of the game, because they have to make every frame twice - once for the vast majority of players who do PVE content, and again for Conclave.  That means updates take longer.

Still not saying it should be removed, but I would like to see competitive modes as well that aren't direct frame vs frame combat (and still use the normal PVE combat instead of something like Lunaro).

As far as data, what do you think is more likely, the 100 players I looked at are misrepresenting conclave participation, AND everyone who says Conclave is extremely unpopular is wrong AND the devs who have said that participation is low and thus they have de-prioritized it are lying - OR - you are in denial about your favorite niche gameplay mode.

[Stormdragon]

1 hour ago, TaigenRaine said:

However, since you brought it up, Conclave actually does have a bearing on my enjoyment of the game, because they have to make every frame twice

Do you even know what you're talkimg about? A quick glance at the conclave arsenal would be enough to realize that neither revenant or any of the frames released after him has been "done twice", same applies for some frames who got reworked after said release like Wukong, Vauban and Ember, so you're just talking from misinformation. 

14 hours ago, TaigenRaine said:

So 12% of the top 100 of my clan had any meaningful progress in Conclave, and the very best is rank 2 out of 5.

Do you even know how to get a realiable source of to get a proper sample to analyze? Using nothing but "the top 100 of your clan" is already awful. How did you decide who are those "top" players? What if players out of the top 100 have a different behavior to the ones on your sample? And what about those out of your clan? Do you really think that you'll convince anyone with such a deep study?

[SpicyDinosaur]

2 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Do you even know what you're talkimg about? A quick glance at the conclave arsenal would be enough to realize that neither revenant or any of the frames released after him has been "done twice", same applies for some frames who got reworked after said release like Wukong, Vauban and Ember, so you're just talking from misinformation. 

Do you even know how to get a realiable source of to get a proper sample to analyze? Using nothing but "the top 100 of your clan" is already awful. How did you decide who are those "top" players? What if players out of the top 100 have a different behavior to the ones on your sample? And what about those out of your clan? Do you really think that you'll convince anyone with such a deep study?

It's a waste of time arguing with them and their "data."

[Stormdragon]

5 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

It's a waste of time arguing with them and their "data."

Yeah, luckily i have quite some time to waste by now. I'd actually dislike it if "studies" like that one became the chart of misinformation 2.0

[TaigenRaine]

By 'top' I mean the first 100 members listed by default, which encompass players of all sorts or MR and playtimes.  Other then joining a particular clan, there is nothing that links them together.  I could do a similar look through region chat, the results are not going to be much different.

There wouldn't even be a 'study' if someone didn't get all sarcastic about a comment that is common knowledge, that conclave participation is quite low.  It took all of 20 minutes to get exactly what I expected to see.  100 is a pretty decent sample size when you randomly select the profiles and was plenty enough for the purpose of backing up my statement.  It might not be 12% exactly for game-wide participation, but it does show that the number is going to be quite low.

I was ready even to be proven wrong by what I found when I started.  The fact is though I was not.  If you can find a random sampling of players (not like from a PVP clan or some such) that shows significantly higher participation then go ahead.

Edited April 9, 2020 by TaigenRaine

[Stormdragon]

48 minutes ago, TaigenRaine said:

By 'top' I mean the first 100 members listed by default, which encompass players of all sorts or MR and playtimes.  Other then joining a particular clan, there is nothing that links them together.  I could do a similar look through region chat, the results are not going to be much different.

There wouldn't even be a 'study' if someone didn't get all sarcastic about a comment that is common knowledge, that conclave participation is quite low.  It took all of 20 minutes to get exactly what I expected to see.  100 is a pretty decent sample size when you randomly select the profiles and was plenty enough for the purpose of backing up my statement.  It might not be 12% exactly for game-wide participation, but it does show that the number is going to be quite low.

Huh, if 100 players is a representative sample, i could just grab my clan plus some players from other conclave focused clans (yes, these exist unlike popular belief) and a handful of conclave regulars from the discord (which also exists and is big enough to fulfill DE's requirements to be seen as a fansite), and use that to claim that 100% of the playerbase is ranked typhoon and likes conclave. And this could be even better since i'd still be grabbing people "randomly" from a source where i already know what to expect.

Can you see now why your study with 100 players is meaningless? Amd even smaller when other numbers from the community are too big to make a 20 minutes study, such as today's peak on steam charts (76.1K players and doesn't count standalone PC players nor consoles), or the 5,3 millions of players registered on forums (easy to see on the forums' main site, which is still not big enough to be an indicative sample of players since it only counts players who have logged in at least once to forums) and that's before i even mention the last amount of registered players (across all platforms) mentioned by DE.

Quote

I was ready even to be proven wrong by what I found when I started.  The fact is though I was not.  If you can find a random sampling of players (not like from a PVP clan or some such) that shows significantly higher participation then go ahead.

Since your sample was your clan, i guess my friends list would be enough ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited April 9, 2020 by Stormdragon