Bring back revenant to original concept he is boring

[aspeedninja]

Revenant is right now really boring to play and when I play him it's like I have to force my self to use his abilities

His 1 was better in original concept where there was not a stupid cap on how many you could have, and the ability had synergy with the rest of his kit, unlike now where it just feels disconnected

His 2 is fine but it should either give just a 90% damage reduction on the charges working kinda like nezhas helo, or not be recastable, it's just to powerful and to boring as it is right now

His 3 is fine as is 

His 4 is just one big S#&$ty excuse of an abitily, it's boring, looks crap and does not really fit his kit, make is so that it puts enemies effected by is 1 to sleep and take more damage and when they die the leave the tower of energy that can infect more enemies. It making enemies take more damage also makes it so that your weapons matter and you not just can use your 4 to kill everything

This is just a proposal for his kit, please if anyone has some other ideas or thinks that revenant is fine as he is, leave your feedback,I just want to see him get reworked, I dont really care how just make him more synergistic and less boring

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by aspeedninja
Just wrote something twice

[Circle_of_Psi]

His old concept had an 4th where he'll place down some kind of sentient like mist and everyone whuold fall asleep

[PsiWarp]

11 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

His old concept had an 4th where he'll place down some kind of sentient like mist and everyone whuold fall asleep

Yeah both it and Danse Macabre would put me to sleep, room-clear vs room of enemies that can't fight back, both quite boring.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Lol no absolutely not.

Revenants biggest issue right now is the massive conflict in his theme. His entire visual design is modeled after the Eidolons, but his ability design is modeled after vampires. This conflict ultimately makes him the absolute worst designed frame in the game, as well as being a massive piece of false advertisement to anyone who thinks that the Eidolon frame is going to be like the Eidolons.

His 1-3 are quite easily some of the clunkiness, poorly designed mess of abilities (no surprise when you learn how they came about). They can’t really do anything on their own and require synergy with an awful CC ability that easily gets killed by both yourself and squadmates.

Now as for Danse Macabre. Yes it is just another press 4 to win ability. But it’s still a good ability. The damage is nice, the damage adaptation is useful. Also it actually fits the theme of an Eidolon Warframe. It essentially makes the rest of his kit redundant. 
 

And that is all without going into the multiple anti synergies and contradictions within his kit.

So under no circumstances should Revenant be reverted back to his original design. Instead he should be completely reworked to be properly Eidolon themed and actually good.

[Circle_of_Psi]

14 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Yeah both it and Danse Macabre would put me to sleep, room-clear vs room of enemies that can't fight back, both quite boring.

Same

[Circle_of_Psi]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Lol no absolutely not.

Revenants biggest issue right now is the massive conflict in his theme. His entire visual design is modeled after the Eidolons, but his ability design is modeled after vampires. This conflict ultimately makes him the absolute worst designed frame in the game, as well as being a massive piece of false advertisement to anyone who thinks that the Eidolon frame is going to be like the Eidolons.

His 1-3 are quite easily some of the clunkiness, poorly designed mess of abilities (no surprise when you learn how they came about). They can’t really do anything on their own and require synergy with an awful CC ability that easily gets killed by both yourself and squadmates.

Now as for Danse Macabre. Yes it is just another press 4 to win ability. But it’s still a good ability. The damage is nice, the damage adaptation is useful. Also it actually fits the theme of an Eidolon Warframe. It essentially makes the rest of his kit redundant. 
 

And that is all without going into the multiple anti synergies and contradictions within his kit.

So under no circumstances should Revenant be reverted back to his original design. Instead he should be completely reworked to be properly Eidolon themed and actually good.

I do have a few ideas I can pick-straw, but gah, I'm terrible at such 

[kwlingo]

He was a go to before the self-damage rework. Now no one uses him because he was only here fore Kuva Bramma. 🙂

[DrBorris]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

-snip-

Lol no absolutely not

Eidolons have no gameplay character, the only character they have is their aesthetic.

Vampires have literally centuries of lore that can be used to build an interesting kit and give a Warframe gameplay character.

 

Thus, it would lead to a better designed Warframe if Revenant had the gameplay character of a vampire and the aesthetic style of an Eidolon. He should absolutely go back to his original design intent of being a vampire.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

21 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Lol no absolutely not

Eidolons have no gameplay character, the only character they have is their aesthetic.

Vampires have literally centuries of lore that can be used to build an interesting kit and give a Warframe gameplay character.

 

Thus, it would lead to a better designed Warframe if Revenant had the gameplay character of a vampire and the aesthetic style of an Eidolon. He should absolutely go back to his original design intent of being a vampire.

They have a variety of different laser attacks. Also they are part of the sentient faction so if DE is really pressed for ability ideas then they can borrow abilities from the other sentients.

Simply saying “oh well this was an easier choice to make abilities for even tho it doesn’t make sense, so it was only the most logical choice”: Well I guess the next DE should just stop making cohesively themed Warframes if they can just completely ignore the theme. Chroma too hard to rework? Make him demon themed, there’s like 500 times more types of demons than dragons. Hydroid to hard to rework? Make him planet themed, the earth is 75% water so that technically counts and there’s like a bajillion planets. Throw Jupiter’s red spot storm on him and let him cause earthquakes. The upcoming community Broken themed frame too hard to design for? Make its abilities have absolutely nothing to do with the theme of “broken”, completely defeating the purpose of picking the theme in the first place. Do you see how shallow your argument is? They cannot just ignore a frames theme.

Theres is also absolutely nothing that the vampire theme adds that benefits or works with the Eidolon theme. It’s not like Atlas where the Brawler theme benefits the rock theme. There’s no flow. Hell Danse Macabre literally makes the rest of his abilities useless and it’s the only properly Eidolon themed ability in his kit. They conflict massively and it just leads to Revenant constantly tripping over himself instead of having a kit that flows together.

There is nothing about Revenants current design that is good. And it’s all because that stupid vampire theme was shoved down his throat.

Edited March 29, 2020 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[DrBorris]

33 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

And it’s all because that stupid vampire theme was shoved down his throat.

Except that it was historically the opposite? Revenant was original leaning far more into Vampire themes, but after the Devstream where he was first shown off the community said "make it more like an Eidolon". Thus DE shoved more Eidolon down the Vampire Warframe's throat.

In addition, Eidolons absolutely do lead into vampires. Eidolons are undead corpses searching to become whole again. Vampires historically control the undead. I know that others have explained this to you even more explicitly and you have always just retorted with "no", so I am not sure why I even try.

 

And good lord you went all out on the strawmen arguments, I am actually a bit impressed by the degree you were able to misrepresent my point.

In my humble opinion, the problem with his kit and the reason it is so disjointed is because they shoved too much Eidolon into the Vampire.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

I'd take a full-blown Sentient kit over some vampire gimmick any day. Besides, Garuda clearly got the better half of the vampiric kit, what with her high sustain from the blood of her enemies. If they'd just remove that stupid gimmick, we'd truly be able to have an actual Sentient Warframe.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

53 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Except that it was historically the opposite? Revenant was original leaning far more into Vampire themes, but after the Devstream where he was first shown off the community said "make it more like an Eidolon". Thus DE shoved more Eidolon down the Vampire Warframe's throat.

In addition, Eidolons absolutely do lead into vampires. Eidolons are undead corpses searching to become whole again. Vampires historically control the undead. I know that others have explained this to you even more explicitly and you have always just retorted with "no", so I am not sure why I even try.

 

And good lord you went all out on the strawmen arguments, I am actually a bit impressed by the degree you were able to misrepresent my point.

In my humble opinion, the problem with his kit and the reason it is so disjointed is because they shoved too much Eidolon into the Vampire.

But why was he vampire themed to begin with? His first inception was the concept art that titled it as an EIDOLON WARFRAME. He looks like an Eidolon. Now I don’t know about you but the last time I checked vampires were giant hulking mechanics behemoths that shot lasers. The only reason there’s a vampire theme in him at all is because for some reason they had Rebecca design his abilities and she took that one single opportunity to put a vampire frame in the game with complete disregard for the frames actual intended theme.

Just because something is undead doesn’t not immediately make it a vampire. Do you have any idea how many different forms of undead there are? The idea of “Oh well he’s technically undead so we can just completely ignore the theme of the frame and put in our own unrelated theme that loosely connects” is BS.

Strawman? You said that if a frame is to hard to build around it’s theme DE should just ignore the theme. Do you have any idea how insane that argument is? Making a proper, good Eidolon themed Warframe isn’t hard. They just need to put someone who actually knows how to design video games. Not get the community director to do it.

If DE wants to make a vampire frame then they can make a seperate frame who’s backstory and appearance aren’t directly tied to an already established game faction that are very clearly not vampires. Not shove themes we’re they don’t belong in acts of self service.

[Madway7]

4 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Eidolons have no gameplay character, the only character they have is their aesthetic.

Rhino stomp but with knockback and additional effects

A variety of laser attacks

Ability to spawn in support minions

Ability to buff those minions

Ability for the minions to support them

Two big AoE attacks (one being the Hydrolyst timebomb, the other being the general magnetic AoE)

A weird health gate mechanic that could be turned into an ability (different, but maybe somewhat similar what mesmer skin is now)

Ability to teleport (which probably wouldn't turn out to be a good ability but it's something)

 

4 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Vampires have literally centuries of lore that can be used to build an interesting kit and give a Warframe gameplay character.

Which is good and they should have just saved it for a fully fledged vampire frame

 

3 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Revenant was original leaning far more into Vampire themes, but after the Devstream where he was first shown off the community said "make it more like an Eidolon". Thus DE shoved more Eidolon down the Vampire Warframe's throat.

Tennocon a few months before the devstream 

So I feel like it was the opposite, Rebb liked vampires, they gave Rebb control over the concepts for his abilities since the team was hard at work on Fortuna (which also messed him up post release)

 

 

3 hours ago, DrBorris said:

In addition, Eidolons absolutely do lead into vampires. Eidolons are undead corpses searching to become whole again. Vampires historically control the undead. I know that others have explained this to you even more explicitly and you have always just retorted with "no", so I am not sure why I even try.

Very loose concepts that have been interpreted in many different ways over various generations, they can have similarities and differences, regardless they are not the same thing.

 

3 hours ago, DrBorris said:

In my humble opinion, the problem with his kit and the reason it is so disjointed is because they shoved too much Eidolon into the Vampire.

I feel the opposite here

Edited March 29, 2020 by Madway7

[DrBorris]

 

2 hours ago, Madway7 said:

Tennocon a few months before the devstream 

"Vlad" was shown off on Devstream 112 on June 1st, 2018. Tennocon was July 7th, 2018. I believe that Tennocon was only when the new name "Revenant" was confirmed, but we knew about "Vlad" far prior to Tennocon.

2 hours ago, Madway7 said:

Very loose concepts that have been interpreted in many different ways over various generations, they can have similarities and differences, regardless they are not the same thing.

My point with that statement is that Revenant being a Vampire isn't out of left field, Eidolons are not just Sentients. The position a Eidolon has next to a Sentient, and the concept of a Warframe being infused with Eidolon-ness, can be logically brought to a vampiric theme without the assumption that they were mashed together just because Rebb was involved. Eidolons are zombies, so making an Eidolon Warframe the king of zombies (Vlad) is a pretty straight shot.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

10 hours ago, aspeedninja said:

Revenant is right now really boring to play and when I play him it's like I have to force my self to use his abilities

His 1 was better in original concept where there was not a stupid cap on how many you could have, and the ability had synergy with the rest of his kit, unlike now where it just feels disconnected
 

his 1 was never uncapped in the amount if enemies you could control. You may be thinking of nekros. 

10 hours ago, aspeedninja said:

His 2 is fine but it should either give just a 90% damage reduction on the charges working kinda like nezhas helo, or not be recastable, it's just to powerful and to boring as it is right now

his 2 is his best ability, and to change it to another boring DR ability would be a absolute waste. It already has built in limitations (low charge count, not immune to AoE attacks) and its far from overpowered

10 hours ago, aspeedninja said:

His 3 is fine as is 

how is his 3 fine but his 2 needs help?!?! His 3 is objectively his worst ability, because at least his 1 can be used in general gameplay without purposely gimping yourself. 

10 hours ago, aspeedninja said:

His 4 is just one big S#&$ty excuse of an abitily, it's boring, looks crap and does not really fit his kit, make is so that it puts enemies effected by is 1 to sleep and take more damage and when they die the leave the tower of energy that can infect more enemies. It making enemies take more damage also makes it so that your weapons matter and you not just can use your 4 to kill everything

seeing as how his 4 is the only other useable ability (besides his 2) making his 4 an AoE damage buff to only mind controlled enemies would be about as effective for revenant as a kick in the groin. 

10 hours ago, aspeedninja said:

This is just a proposal for his kit, please if anyone has some other ideas or thinks that revenant is fine as he is, leave your feedback,I just want to see him get reworked, I dont really care how just make him more synergistic and less boring

 

Revenants problems are not that he is too synergistic, but that his synergies are forced or actively detrimental to his kit. For a proper change, he would need a lot more help then just a few paragraphed ideas. 

[Madway7]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

his 1 was never uncapped in the amount if enemies you could control. You may be thinking of nekros. 

In the first stream where he was shown off his 1 was uncapped, but it worked in a different way, there was 3 phases to becoming a thrall rather than they just become a thrall right away.

 

18 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

"Vlad" was shown off on Devstream 112 on June 1st, 2018. Tennocon was July 7th, 2018. I believe that Tennocon was only when the new name "Revenant" was confirmed, but we knew about "Vlad" far prior to Tennocon.

It's kinda hard, but look at the date below name on the img

I'm pretty sure they work with multiple codenames while making a frame, so that doesn't matter much here.

 

22 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

My point with that statement is that Revenant being a Vampire isn't out of left field, Eidolons are not just Sentients. The position a Eidolon has next to a Sentient, and the concept of a Warframe being infused with Eidolon-ness, can be logically brought to a vampiric theme without the assumption that they were mashed together just because Rebb was involved. Eidolons are zombies, so making an Eidolon Warframe the king of zombies (Vlad) is a pretty straight shot.

It's not too weird, but still, Eidolons are a thing and what they do doesn't match with what Revenant does or how he goes about it. 

 

Also I completely disregard his lore seeing as it was made in a rush and used to justify however he turned out (no matter how that may have been at the time). If they stated right away that they had a quest planned I would have seen it another way, but what happened was one week they state no quest and the next stream they said they did decide on doing a quest.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

13 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

In the first stream where he was shown off his 1 was uncapped, but it worked in a different way, there was 3 phases to becoming a thrall rather than they just become a thrall right away.

 

Ahh, i remembered it having a cap even then too, my bad

[(NSW)Gunz]

10 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Now as for Danse Macabre. Yes it is just another press 4 to win ability. But it’s still a good ability. The damage is nice, the damage adaptation is useful. Also it actually fits the theme of an Eidolon Warframe. It essentially makes the rest of his kit redundant. 

The damage is only nice for starchart level missions. Once you get into sortie and arbitration levels, the damage output is far too low to justify the energy cost, especially considering how effectively he can combo enthrall and reave to deal high damage and lifesteal for a combined lower energy cost than sustaining his 4 to deal equivalent damage. Making his 4 synergize with the rest of his kit by making enthralled enemies rupture into those damaging pillars on command as well as send out a radial CC effect like sleep would be far more effective. The most fun frames to use are the ones with abilities that can combo off each other.

Saryn

Wukong

Vauban

Harrow

Wisp

Just as examples.

 

The frames that are less fun are the ones like Excalibur, Rhino, Valkyr, and Chroma, where the abilities feel disconnected from one another and have little to no benefit to use in concert. I know fun is subjective and some people are quite content to be that Excal or Valk that just presses 4 and mashes melee and there's nothing wrong with that. It's the most accurate measuring stick I could use to try and make my point. DE, please make more frames with ability synergy.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

14 minutes ago, (NSW)Gunz said:

The damage is only nice for starchart level missions. Once you get into sortie and arbitration levels, the damage output is far too low to justify the energy cost, especially considering how effectively he can combo enthrall and reave to deal high damage and lifesteal for a combined lower energy cost than sustaining his 4 to deal equivalent damage. Making his 4 synergize with the rest of his kit by making enthralled enemies rupture into those damaging pillars on command as well as send out a radial CC effect like sleep would be far more effective. The most fun frames to use are the ones with abilities that can combo off each other.

Saryn

Wukong

Vauban

Harrow

Wisp

Just as examples.

 

The frames that are less fun are the ones like Excalibur, Rhino, Valkyr, and Chroma, where the abilities feel disconnected from one another and have little to no benefit to use in concert. I know fun is subjective and some people are quite content to be that Excal or Valk that just presses 4 and mashes melee and there's nothing wrong with that. It's the most accurate measuring stick I could use to try and make my point. DE, please make more frames with ability synergy.

If you think Danse Macabre is only good until level 50 you’re building him wrong.

Go figure a GHS fan who thinks Revenants one shot gimmick is actually good. It’s slow af and too low range to ever be of any practical use in gameplay. And with the decrease of enemy armor scaling, simple damage abilities scale further than they ever have before. Meaning you’ll never feel like you have to rely on the gimmick to kill high levels.

What good is a life steal ability if the frames primary form of defense doesn’t rely on their health? It would be like giving Rhino a self heal. It’s absolutely worthless.

You listed frames that CAN combo their abilities. But one of Revenants biggest issues is that he HAS to combo his abilities if he wants to do anything of significance. The issue is all those synergies are tied to Enthrall which can’t survive long enough to ever be of benefit to you. So he never has access to his very necessary to perform synergies the instant you have a squadmate. And his base abilities are so awful and poorly designed they have nothing beneficial to offer Revenant or his squadmates. Except for Danse which offers good adaptive damage is a wide AOE.

 

[DrBorris]

30 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

-snip-

I'm curious, why are you so against the idea of Revenant leaning into Vampire themes? I feel like I have made a good enough case that you can at last understand the perspective I am coming from, what is it about Revenant being a Vampire that is so bad?

Personally, I don't see anything innately interesting in playing as an Eidolon. They have big lasers and a bunch of immunity, DE can surely make something work with that. But given that a Vampire has a bit more behind it compounded with there being similarities between the two (in regards to minions), just leaning all of the way into Vampire feels to me as though it will create the more interesting Warframe. It is not like Eidolon aspects would disappear, that tone could still run through a Vampire's kit.

 

Just for example, I would rather see Revenant take a cue or two from Saryn. Saryn's first ability effectively sentences an enemy to death, an enemy affected by spore will die. If unlimited killing is okay, why isn't unlimited light CC? When you unlimit Revenant's thralls, that opens up many other options for the rest of his kit. Build Revenant's gameplay loop around enthralling, exploiting Thralls, and executing Thralls. Let Vlad have his undead army (not undead posse).

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

11 hours ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

I'd take a full-blown Sentient kit over some vampire gimmick any day. Besides, Garuda clearly got the better half of the vampiric kit, what with her high sustain from the blood of her enemies. If they'd just remove that stupid gimmick, we'd truly be able to have an actual Sentient Warframe.

I mean.  If you ever looked into Vampire lore their capabilities among pretty much any aspect about them has a wide variety of interpretations.  Garuda is clearly the more violent and bloody take on them.  But very old Vampire folk lore focuses heavily on their ability to thrall people and disappear in a cloud of mist/bats.  Neither version is really better or worse.  it's preference.

 

As far as Revenant goes they should just go one way or the other.  full vamp/specter or full eidilon.  And then release another frame with the other theme.  I doubt either will happen though.  So people (you know who you are) need to let it go already.  DE isn't in the habit of reworking a frame into a new frame entirely.  Especially when it's over something as trivial as theme clashing.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

r full eidilon.  And then release another frame with the other theme.  I doubt either will happen though.  So people (you know who you are) need to let it go already.  DE isn't in the habit of reworking a frame into a new frame entirely.  Especially when it's over something as trivial as theme clashing.

1. Revenant is the first example of a massive conflict clash in themes that do not benefit the frame. And given the fact that it’s the primary cause of him being a bad frame. I’d say it’s far more than “trivial”.

2. The problems with Revenant extend far past just his theme. His abilities are some of the absolute worst in the game, and given he came out in 2018 that’s just pathetic. 
 

3. they made Ember practically an entirely new frame. They can do the same for Revenant.

Edited March 30, 2020 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

1. Revenant is the first example of a massive conflict clash in themes that do not benefit the frame.

Debatable.  Oberon comes to mind.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

2. The problems with Revenant extend far past just his theme. His abilities are some of the absolute worst in the game, and given he came out in 2018 that’s just pathetic. 
 

I've literally been down this road with you more times than I care to count.  Any legitimacy you have to your points is drowned out and diluted to meaningless drivel because you have such a massive hate for the frame that skews any objectivity you could ever have.  You go out of your way to trash the frame.  I'm not going to ever take you seriously because of that.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

3. they made Ember practically an entirely new frame. They can do the same for Revenant.

Please re-read.  I said they're not in the habit of.  Just because there is an example that exists does not mean it sets the expectation that such an idea should be considered a good one.  There are plenty of Ember mains that were/are against this.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I mean.  If you ever looked into Vampire lore their capabilities among pretty much any aspect about them has a wide variety of interpretations.  Garuda is clearly the more violent and bloody take on them.  But very old Vampire folk lore focuses heavily on their ability to thrall people and disappear in a cloud of mist/bats.  Neither version is really better or worse.  it's preference.

 

As far as Revenant goes they should just go one way or the other.  full vamp/specter or full eidilon.  And then release another frame with the other theme.  I doubt either will happen though.  So people (you know who you are) need to let it go already.  DE isn't in the habit of reworking a frame into a new frame entirely.  Especially when it's over something as trivial as theme clashing.

That kind of mentality doesn't work around here when you have reworks like Wukong's & Vauban's that change the kit in a major way. Mesmer Skin & Danse Macabre are debatably the only abilities that seem reasonable enough to stay.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 minute ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

That kind of mentality doesn't work around here when you have reworks like Wukong's & Vauban's that change the kit in a major way. Mesmer Skin & Danse Macabre are debatably the only abilities that seem reasonable enough to stay.

Wukong and Booben didn't change anywhere near as drastically as you're stating.  And if you truly believe so then you didn't grasp those kits fully prior to their reworks.  Ember is the only frame that has been changed to be practically a new frame.  The only other one that's even close to Ember that comes to mind is Saryn.

And I disagree.  I think thrall is a perfectly acceptable ability that only needs a little bit of polish.  I could understand the removal of Reave though.