Bring back revenant to original concept he is boring

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

47 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

That kind of mentality doesn't work around here when you have reworks like Wukong's & Vauban's that change the kit in a major way. Mesmer Skin & Danse Macabre are debatably the only abilities that seem reasonable enough to stay.

And those 2 abilities don’t work well together as Memsmer actively prevents Danse from taking advantage of its scaling mechanic, and aside from not being Eidolon themed Mesmer skin isn’t a very good tank ability.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

46 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

  I think thrall is a perfectly acceptable ability that only needs a little bit of polish.  I could understand the removal of Reave though.

At what point in an Eidolon capture does the Teralyst mind control your Warframe and make it attack your squad mates?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Debatable.  Oberon comes to mind.

I've literally been down this road with you more times than I care to count.  Any legitimacy you have to your points is drowned out and diluted to meaningless drivel because you have such a massive hate for the frame that skews any objectivity you could ever have.  You go out of your way to trash the frame.  I'm not going to ever take you seriously because of that.

Please re-read.  I said they're not in the habit of.  Just because there is an example that exists does not mean it sets the expectation that such an idea should be considered a good one.  There are plenty of Ember mains that were/are against this.

Oberon theme makes sense. Also, he’s actually a good Warframe.

I can be objective and rage filled at the same time. Just because I’m infuriated by how DE handled this frame doesn’t invalidate any point I’ve made about him. And the fact that you’re trying to discredit me on the simple merit of “being angry” is honestly pretty sad.

Wukongs 1 2 and 3 act completely different from how they used to. Just like how Embers 2 3 and 4 are complete different from before.

If a frames bad enough and disliked by the community enough it’ll get reworked. And considering Revenants one of the least played frames and has a literal laundry list of issues. He qualifies for a rework. Also note that the backlash to Ember rework came after she was already reworked and it was exclusively from people that didn’t understand that there was absolutely zero chance DE was going to make WoF super powerful.

Edited March 30, 2020 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

20 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

At what point in an Eidolon capture does the Teralyst mind control your Warframe and make it attack your squad mates?

I acknowledge your hilarious attempt here.  But I will not entertain that trail of thought.

15 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Oberon theme makes sense. Also, he’s actually a good Warframe.

A frame about nature using radiation to damage people.  Makes total sense.  /s.

15 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I can be objective and rage filled at the same time. Just because I’m infuriated by how DE handled this frame doesn’t invalidate any point I’ve made about him. And the fact that you’re trying to discredit me on the simple merit of “being angry” is honestly pretty sad.

Yes a person can absolutely be passionate and still be objective.  You're not that person.  I don't need to discredit you.  Anyone whos been around here long enough has seen you go out of your way to downplay positives about his kit.  But sure, we can pretend you're an absolute paragon of an individual when it comes to Revenant.

15 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Wukongs 1 2 and 3 act completely different from how they used to. Just like how Embers 2 3 and 4 are complete different from before.

Pre wukong rework was a survivalist who beat people with a stick.  Post rework he's a survivalist who beats people with a stick.  Just because he survives differently now an has an additional way to damage people (via his clone) doesn't mean he's changed out of the niche he was in.  Ember went from a weapon buffing platform to a nuker support frame.  You're grasping at straws.

15 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

If a frames bad enough and disliked by the community enough it’ll get reworked. And considering Revenants one of the least played frames and has a literal laundry list of issues. He qualifies for a rework. Also note that the backlash to Ember rework came after she was already reworked and it was exclusively from people that didn’t understand that there was absolutely zero chance DE was going to make WoF super powerful.

I mean.  You can believe that all you want.  History doesn't support that.  DE often changes frames based on a gameplay need.  Not because people boycott on their website.  There are plenty of frames that qualify for a touch up.  You're not asking for one.  You're asking for a new frame.  That's hilarious.  Let's just completely forget about the two most notable ember mains here giving legitimate reasons on why they disliked the frame rework just to make your non existent argument have a leg to stand on.

[CthuluIsSpy]

So I've been trying out Revenant and I agree he does need a rework.

From what I observed, Revenant is a Warframe who belongs in a game that's not warframe.

Take his Enthrall for example - in any other game, Enthrall would be a powerful ability. Its a mind control ability that spreads its influence to other enemies. That's really powerful in a single player game, but NOT in Warframe, which is a co-op game where your thralls would be gunned down instantly by your team mates, making it more or less useless. 

Now take mesmer skin. Mesmer skin is one of his more powerful abilities and against small numbers of enemies it is useful, but against hordes (which you will encounter in Warframe) its charges run out pretty fast and its free Enthrall gimmick doesn't work for the above reasons.

Reave is just a bad ability. Awkward to use, doesn't seem to do much, relies on Thralls which you won't have because they'd be killed by your team mates.

Danse Macabre is the only ability that actually feels like it belongs in Warframe. Its a room clearer that adapts itself to enemy defenses, which goes along with Revenant's sentient trait.

So yeah, Revenant needs some love. 

Maybe enemies affected by enthrall should be flagged as allies, and Revenant can recast enthrall to remove it and deal a large chunk of damage in the process, maybe getting energy back if they die? I dunno, the point is, he's not really fun to play co-op. Solo, yes, because Enthrall actually works as intended, but Warframe isn't a solo game.

[Marine027]

vor einer Stunde schrieb CthuluIsSpy:

Maybe enemies affected by enthrall should be flagged as allies

They actually are in some way, Mesa can't target thralls with her 4 as example.

Same goes for targeted abilitys overall i think from others.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I acknowledge your hilarious attempt here.  But I will not entertain that trail of thought.

A frame about nature using radiation to damage people.  Makes total sense.  /s.

Yes a person can absolutely be passionate and still be objective.  You're not that person.  I don't need to discredit you.  Anyone whos been around here long enough has seen you go out of your way to downplay positives about his kit.  But sure, we can pretend you're an absolute paragon of an individual when it comes to Revenant.

Pre wukong rework was a survivalist who beat people with a stick.  Post rework he's a survivalist who beats people with a stick.  Just because he survives differently now an has an additional way to damage people (via his clone) doesn't mean he's changed out of the niche he was in.  Ember went from a weapon buffing platform to a nuker support frame.  You're grasping at straws.

I mean.  You can believe that all you want.  History doesn't support that.  DE often changes frames based on a gameplay need.  Not because people boycott on their website.  There are plenty of frames that qualify for a touch up.  You're not asking for one.  You're asking for a new frame.  That's hilarious.  Let's just completely forget about the two most notable ember mains here giving legitimate reasons on why they disliked the frame rework just to make your non existent argument have a leg to stand on.

So you admit that Enthrall makes absolutely no sense on an Eidolon frame.

Would you rather he deal puncture damage?

I’m not downplaying anything. I’m simply looking for every issue the frame has to strengthen the argument that he needs a rework. Ok it takes effort to make a scaling one shot suck. And Revenant put in that effort.

Iron staff sucked pre rework. So he was literally just “not die boy”. Post rework he’s a minion summoning, self healing, spy vault running, tank that still has no reason to use Iron staff because it still sucks.

Embers weapon buffing was the last thing she was decent as. But that doesnt suddenly delete her intended role as an AOE Damage dealer. So she sucked at her primary role. 
 

Well then let’s look at all the things Revenant is best at. Liches....just Liches. And you don’t even really need him for them. Yeah he need rework. Now!

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, CthuluIsSpy said:

So I've been trying out Revenant and I agree he does need a rework.

From what I observed, Revenant is a Warframe who belongs in a game that's not warframe.

Heh. I came to the same conclusion. He honestly feels like a character that would fit better in a game like League of Legends.

But one of Revenants issues is the fact that at their base his 1-3 are garbage abilities that try to survive off their synergies. They’re also the vampire themed powers of his kit. So the best thing for Revenant is to replace entirely.

[(NSW)Gunz]

19 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Go figure a GHS fan who thinks Revenants one shot gimmick is actually good

Ok, so.

Firstly, wow, I wear the GHS glyph with pride for the GHS community, not for the content. No need to attack someone who isn't even a part of this discussion.

Secondly, I never said it was good, I said it was more effective at high levels. I only ever use Revenant in index for mesmer skin abuse, he's so boring to use and does nothing other frames can't do better.

19 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

And with the decrease of enemy armor scaling, simple damage abilities scale further than they ever have before

Ah yes, making enemies in high level laughably easy to kill. Ok, so he can scale into sortie level with no effort now and can probably go half an hour into arbs without needing to resort to mesmer skin enthrall cheese, but eventually he'll be forced into that boring strategy. And at that point, I'll be sitting there as vauban just tossing down bastilles and flechette orbs which actually do scale infinitely, and I'll be safe for hours.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Gunz said:

Ok, so.

Firstly, wow, I wear the GHS glyph with pride for the GHS community, not for the content. No need to attack someone who isn't even a part of this discussion.

Secondly, I never said it was good, I said it was more effective at high levels. I only ever use Revenant in index for mesmer skin abuse, he's so boring to use and does nothing other frames can't do better.

Ah yes, making enemies in high level laughably easy to kill. Ok, so he can scale into sortie level with no effort now and can probably go half an hour into arbs without needing to resort to mesmer skin enthrall cheese, but eventually he'll be forced into that boring strategy. And at that point, I'll be sitting there as vauban just tossing down bastilles and flechette orbs which actually do scale infinitely, and I'll be safe for hours.

GHS is clickbait that overblows niche gimmicks as viable gameplay options. It’s actively harmful to discussions about a frames or weapons usefulness when you have everyone saying Nyx needs a rework and you have him in the corner saying she’s Overpowered because she’s a hard to kill snail with armor strip.

Lol, Danse scales up to atleast level 135 (and most likely further). It would comfortably scale even better if Mesmer skin wasn’t actively restricting its scaling mechanic. And by the time the Enthrall/Reave gimmick needs to be abused you’ve already likely spend over 5 hours in the mission and should probably take a break as you’re not receiving anything beneficial for that time. So an ability that you have to wait that long for it to every be considered useful is a bad ability.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

14 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

So you admit that Enthrall makes absolutely no sense on an Eidolon frame.

laughs

14 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Would you rather he deal puncture damage?

And there we go side stepping the topic. 😄

14 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’m not downplaying anything. I’m simply looking for every issue the frame has to strengthen the argument that he needs a rework. Ok it takes effort to make a scaling one shot suck. And Revenant put in that effort.

Anyone can go look at your post history mate.  You literally shouting down any positive someone brings up about his kit is the literal example of downplaying.

14 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Iron staff sucked pre rework. So he was literally just “not die boy”. Post rework he’s a minion summoning, self healing, spy vault running, tank that still has no reason to use Iron staff because it still sucks.

His stick's performance doesn't matter.  His niche stayed the same.  He was a hard to kill melee boy before.  he still is now.  The way he gets to that point is what changed.  Not the overall end goal.  You're still just grasping.

14 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Embers weapon buffing was the last thing she was decent as. But that doesnt suddenly delete her intended role as an AOE Damage dealer. So she sucked at her primary role. 
 

She was pretty damned good at it.  You'd know that if you actually knew her kit.  And her sucking at her "role" isn't even what's being discussed about here.  It's that she changed from one completely seperate style to another one post rework.  You're not actually putting up anything that changes this fact.  Just continuing to pull fluff out of no where.

14 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Well then let’s look at all the things Revenant is best at. Liches....just Liches. And you don’t even really need him for them. Yeah he need rework. Now!

I'm not even sure what this is meant to be a response to in what you've quoted from me.  Not like it matters.  You're perfectly content to continue to just move the goal posts of a given discussion around just to try and cobble together something resembling a point.  It's rather comforting that I can leave the forums and your general borderline troll posting about Revenant remains a universal constant.  But I think i've had my fill for the next few months.  Keep on keepin on.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

17 hours ago, CthuluIsSpy said:

So I've been trying out Revenant and I agree he does need a rework.

From what I observed, Revenant is a Warframe who belongs in a game that's not warframe.

Take his Enthrall for example - in any other game, Enthrall would be a powerful ability. Its a mind control ability that spreads its influence to other enemies. That's really powerful in a single player game, but NOT in Warframe, which is a co-op game where your thralls would be gunned down instantly by your team mates, making it more or less useless. 

Loki, oberon, and Nyx also have ways to manipulate enemy behavior and said abilities (or in oberon's case a status proc his kit is based around) were all considered powerful in their own right.  So saying enemy manipulation can't be powerful in a game like warframe is just flat out false.

17 hours ago, CthuluIsSpy said:

Now take mesmer skin. Mesmer skin is one of his more powerful abilities and against small numbers of enemies it is useful, but against hordes (which you will encounter in Warframe) its charges run out pretty fast and its free Enthrall gimmick doesn't work for the above reasons.

See the thing is you're never shot at by enough enemies at a single time to actually delete your charges instantly.  This is because the game is coded in a specific way to never have more than X amount of enemies firing at you at one time.  The only unit that ignores this is melee units.  And you're afforded ample mobility on any frame with the parkour system.  So that's not really an issue.  Even so it's not hard at all to upkeep his charges.  And even if we want to call his enthrall mechanic poor (which I disagree with) it's still a free stun on an enemy.  Which means it's one less enemy shooting at you ripping those charges away.  There are certainly more practical ways to be tanky.  But Skin's method certainly isn't poor.  In fact prior to reworking/removing self damage he was the only tank who couldn't kill himself with self damage due to how the charges work.

17 hours ago, CthuluIsSpy said:

Reave is just a bad ability. Awkward to use, doesn't seem to do much, relies on Thralls which you won't have because they'd be killed by your team mates.

I agree.  It's his poorest ability in his kit.

17 hours ago, CthuluIsSpy said:

Danse Macabre is the only ability that actually feels like it belongs in Warframe. Its a room clearer that adapts itself to enemy defenses, which goes along with Revenant's sentient trait.

Enthrall through multiple ways has it's own usage.  I do think Enthrall needs looking at.  To be touched up.  But imo the only ability in his kit that's actually poor is reave.

17 hours ago, CthuluIsSpy said:

So yeah, Revenant needs some love. 

I agree.  But some insist that he needs a totally new kit.  And that's where people are disagreeing upon.

17 hours ago, CthuluIsSpy said:

Maybe enemies affected by enthrall should be flagged as allies, and Revenant can recast enthrall to remove it and deal a large chunk of damage in the process, maybe getting energy back if they die? I dunno, the point is, he's not really fun to play co-op. Solo, yes, because Enthrall actually works as intended, but Warframe isn't a solo game.

That goes against Revenant's current gameplay loop.  Thralls exist to die.  Not to soak damage for him.  The problem is Revenant can only create one thrall at a time.  meaning in a squad of players he can't capitalize on thrall making and killing very easily.  He can't keep up the pace.  If he had the ability to make multiple thralls at once in some fashion this would be far less of an issue.  Then the next thing would be to adjust the reward for killing thralls.  And then finally either overhauling reave or replacing it.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

26 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

laughs

And there we go side stepping the topic. 😄

Anyone can go look at your post history mate.  You literally shouting down any positive someone brings up about his kit is the literal example of downplaying.

His stick's performance doesn't matter.  His niche stayed the same.  He was a hard to kill melee boy before.  he still is now.  The way he gets to that point is what changed.  Not the overall end goal.  You're still just grasping.

She was pretty damned good at it.  You'd know that if you actually knew her kit.  And her sucking at her "role" isn't even what's being discussed about here.  It's that she changed from one completely seperate style to another one post rework.  You're not actually putting up anything that changes this fact.  Just continuing to pull fluff out of no where.

I'm not even sure what this is meant to be a response to in what you've quoted from me.  Not like it matters.  You're perfectly content to continue to just move the goal posts of a given discussion around just to try and cobble together something resembling a point.  It's rather comforting that I can leave the forums and your general borderline troll posting about Revenant remains a universal constant.  But I think i've had my fill for the next few months.  Keep on keepin on.

I’ll take that as nervous laughter indicating a “yes”.

The goal is to show that Revenant isn’t as good as people claim. And I’m incredibly effective and ruthless at it.

Wukong has the best AI companion in the game now that completely makes his stick no longer a desirable thing to use as it’s significantly weaker than Wuclone with a good gun.

Ember could buff the damage of Ignis and that was pretty much it. Not exactly a great damage buffer when you can only do it for one weapon. She couldn’t survive higher levels long enough to make use of that tho and her damage output was garbage because it was passive AOE. What DE did was make her a more active damaged dealer allowing the AOE damage to deal more damage.

Revenant needs a rework. And I’m going to keep pushing that until he does. So you and everybody else can keep bashing on me for it. It’s  not going to stop me.

[(NSW)Gunz]

16 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

GHS is clickbait that overblows niche gimmicks as viable gameplay options. It’s actively harmful to discussions about a frames or weapons usefulness when you have everyone saying Nyx needs a rework and you have him in the corner saying she’s Overpowered because she’s a hard to kill snail with armor strip.

Again, totally irrelevant, to this discussion.

[AltairFerenc]

On 2020-03-29 at 2:20 PM, aspeedninja said:

His 2 is fine but it should either give just a 90% damage reduction on the charges working kinda like nezhas helo, or not be recastable, it's just to powerful and to boring as it is right now

It was not recastable nad everyone complained about it because when it run out you just died without having a chance to recast it after a certian enemy level was achived, wich was not too high. Now you atlest can't by die by doing absolutly nothing, not just die doing absolutly nothing.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Gunz said:

Again, totally irrelevant, to this discussion.

People overhyping bad frames is incredibly relevant.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Gunz said:

Again, totally irrelevant, to this discussion.

Edit because tis rude

Edited March 31, 2020 by (XB1)Knight Raime

[(XBOX)LZonut]

Revenant's mesmer skin and reave are the 2 abilities that have the most potential to be changed. Mesmer skin for one doesn't make sense, Eidolons never do anything close to stunning enemies after being hit. It makes no sense having a charge system unless it was trying to mimic synovia, which in that case, it should function as multiple health bars for a max of 6 bars of health (max synovia on eidolon we see). This works because reave is based on healing which is nice when you have a big health or shield pool, and it also synergizes with his 4, allowing you to take damage to dish it out, which is a main feature of 4 that would allow it to scale better and be worth the energy cost. Not only that, but it gives you a reason to try and kill thralls. If you don't want to change his 2, fine, then we change his 3 because healing on his kit makes no sense, and it could mimic something else from the eidolon. It should do something to thralls killed, like turn them into a spectral form if they die so they can still enthrall a lot.while being unable to be instantly wiped by teammates.

[CthuluIsSpy]

Le 31/03/2020 à 06:44, (XB1)Knight Raime a dit :

Loki, oberon, and Nyx also have ways to manipulate enemy behavior and said abilities (or in oberon's case a status proc his kit is based around) were all considered powerful in their own right.  So saying enemy manipulation can't be powerful in a game like warframe is just flat out false.

Perhaps, but they don't have abilities that gain bonus effects if they have mind controlled units, do they? Revenant does, and those bonus effects will never come into play because the thralls will be gunned down by your own team mates. That's just bad design. It can be a powerful ability, but in relation to the rest of Rev's abilities? Not great.

I will concede that I was wrong about Mesmer skin after playing Rev a little more - it is extremely powerful outside of intense firefights, and even then that's more of a question of not being able to kill enemies fast enough; that's a equipment problem, not a ability problem. The free Entrall is sort of useless though for the aforementioned reason - yay, you get a free thrall...who gets gunned down instantly by your team mates and the geyser his corpse makes doesn't touch anything because any surrounding enemy was also gunned down.

Reave is still sort of useless? I actually found its more useful as a mobility tool than an attack, as it ignores model collision. I still don't see any effect on enemy health bars though, so I'm not sure if its just bad or if I'm using it wrong.

Edited April 2, 2020 by CthuluIsSpy

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

19 hours ago, CthuluIsSpy said:

Perhaps, but they don't have abilities that gain bonus effects if they have mind controlled units, do they? Revenant does, and those bonus effects will never come into play because the thralls will be gunned down by your own team mates. That's just bad design. It can be a powerful ability, but in relation to the rest of Rev's abilities? Not great.

Well.  If Nyx mind controls a healing ancient she and her allies directly benefit from that controlled target's aura.  But I was more referring to chaos on her.  Oberon and loki don't gain any kind of stat based or direct advantages no.  But i'd blame this failure on the synergy itself rather than the thrall mechanic.  As Revenant technically gains benefits just for thralling an enemy even if he doesn't reave on them.  Thralls are meant to die.  So I don't agree with trying to make them less likely to die.  I'd rather they just let Revenant make more thralls and make them quicker.

19 hours ago, CthuluIsSpy said:

I will concede that I was wrong about Mesmer skin after playing Rev a little more - it is extremely powerful outside of intense firefights, and even then that's more of a question of not being able to kill enemies fast enough; that's a equipment problem, not a ability problem. The free Entrall is sort of useless though for the aforementioned reason - yay, you get a free thrall...who gets gunned down instantly by your team mates and the geyser his corpse makes doesn't touch anything because any surrounding enemy was also gunned down.

I don't personally take Revenant outside solo unless i'm playing with friends.  And in that case it's usually niche based situations.  Like thermia captures or the index.  (still haven't quite figured out whos better at index.  Him or Hyldrin.)

19 hours ago, CthuluIsSpy said:

Reave is still sort of useless? I actually found its more useful as a mobility tool than an attack, as it ignores model collision. I still don't see any effect on enemy health bars though, so I'm not sure if its just bad or if I'm using it wrong.

The only tangible benefit you're going to find with Reave is if you build for 200+ power strength.  This will let Revenant one shot thralled enemies regardless of their health/armor values.  The design of it was meant to be a way for Revenant to sustain.  But since he can very easily "no u" enemies via enthrall and has mesmer skin backing him up it's just more of a utility damage ability.  If it just did that damage all the time without thralling then it would be a decent way to chunk some health while you reposition.

But as I said, I think it's his weakest ability and either needs a heavy redesign or replacement.  Enthrall is a solid ability at it's core.  The loop of creating thralls to kill thralls for benefits is a decent loop.  It's mainly just upkeep with making thralls and the reward structure for doing either that's not really there.  I'd prefer it if they would work on this rather than just scrapping most of his kit for something else.  but ultimately if they do such a thing and said rework turns out to be very good i'd still likely enjoy him.  I just don't think it's neccessary to essentially reboot his kit.