Limbo is unfairly hated

[Travis05]

Its incredible how people treat you when playing limbo. In a defense mission you cant use the rift or they will just abandon. Or they will fight only outside it, making you look like a nuisance rather than helpful. Some even will harrass you in chat.

Couple years ago i stopped using limbo for reasons like these. With this event im experiencing the same stupid feedback from people, trying him on normal missions. Oh, but on the event they suddenly need you: "We need a limbo, our op links are being destroyed". Well guess what? Maybe you would have one if you werent so rude to limbo players. Hypocrite.

No matter how i see it, the rift is incredibly helpful on survival or defense. Im trying to empathize with people who hate it, but i simply cant. I can think only few reasons why this hate is produced:

1. People who havent one, or they never played with one. They dont understand his mechanics and get angry cause they think they are being trolled.

2. People who want to treat every mission like a extermination mission. They dont care about defending anything. They just want their stupid power fantasy, and no having to think. Just pressing click and see things dying. Cant spare a second, they have to maximize the kills and damage.

3. People who think his abilities are too cheesy and unfair and he should be nerfed.

 

The only group i would able to empathize is the last one. I think a nerf maybe is needed. But even then, i didnt see a single good idea about how to do this. Or they dont care about giving feedback, is easier to just insult limbo players. The reason why the devs didnt make changes i think is cause this. They havent good ideas about how to nerf and making him more "fair", but without turning him into something useless.

I think he definitively needs changes but i admit i havent ideas either. Making his abilities cost more energy, would make him more difficult to use and no just spawn cataclysm+stasis without interruption. Its no a perfect solution though. His 3 i dont use it much either, so maybe that would need changes too.

 

 

 

 

[kapn655321]

Limbo receives hate for confusing matters in a firefight, and having the capacity to remove some level of agency from other players. Ever seen folks get mad at a slowva? If the fight can be slowed by a player in any way, that player is expressing a degree of agency over other player's efficiency.. depending how sensitive a player is to that sort of thing, that could either be perceived as an afterthought area of improvement in theory, or a deliberate and malicious disaster on such a core level. I like Limbo and see his advantages, but focusing purely on the positive bias doesn't address the hows and whys of the upset players experience.

Edited March 30, 2020 by kapn655321

[Chewarette]

1- I don't want to play Wood Chopping Simulator.

2- He only creates mess on the battleground, either by using bright color and you can't see S#&$, or dark color and you can't see targets affected or not by his 3.

Yes, Limbo is a nuisance since his rework which completely failed him. Sure he is overpowered now, but he's a nuisance. Thanks to his 3, especially.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Chewarette

[Jiminez_Burial]

17 minutes ago, Travis05 said:

The only group i would able to empathize is the last one.

What about the group of people who get annoyed when they suddenly (through no action of their own) can't kill the thing they had lined a shot up for, and then have to either move out of the bubble or have to roll before they can continue to be effective in the manner they wanted to be?  Some of us want to be close to the defence objective while not being annoyed by this factor.  Limbo is the main Warframe (the only one that comes to mind) that stops you from making a kill in some way other than the target simply being killed before you can take the shot.  On the rare occasion I jump into a public mission (usually defence) and find a Limbo that is a hindrance to the way I want to play, then I leave at the next available mission success opportunity (so not abandoning, but leaving at the end of the 5 waves/5 minutes/round). 

[kapn655321]

I have a kind of controversial idea of how to fix Limbo..

Make a cosmetic to ward a player from their effect. They will not be protected or given energy by Cataclysm, but will be able to hit on either side of the Rift.
Ever use Operator in the Cataclysm, and shoot out? Similar.. but able to hit the things Inside, too.

"Isn't this OP? Like.. all the enemies will be frozen in place like fish in a barrel, and there's no tactical penalty to make that balanced."
Atlas petrify, Frost, Gara, etc... there are many frames already capable of completely stopping enemies in their tracks.

Similar ward cosmetics could be applied for other skills that cause frustration like, speed buff frames for instance.

Edited March 30, 2020 by kapn655321

[(XBOX)Tyreal2012]

 

1 minute ago, Chewarette said:

2- He only creates mess on the battleground, either by using bright color and you can't see S#&$, or dark color and you can't see targets affected or not by his 3.

This ^^

Now ive played with some good limbos in the past as well, but overall I really dont like him, I throw him in with Frost too - a superb defense frame, but most dont know you can collapse Snow Globes so they leave them on the playing field - also i cannot shoot IN to a or THROUGH a snow globe.

[NovusKnight]

I like to think I have mastered all of Limbo's kit, characteristics, and applications. Been using him stupidly successful for years, and could solo sorties even pre-rework.

in my opinion, Limbo is simply too demanding of a user's brain cells compared to other warframes, the moment something complex happens. People are used to pressing 4 and seeing numbers all over, which won't happen with our top hat gentleman. Add to that his mechanics being completely different from literally every other frame, and it's understandable a lot of people simply can't understand him. He is horribly balanced, too. Grineer or infested? You already won by pushing a measly two buttons. Corpus or infested? #*!%ing go home and cry in a corner at being useless against those nullifier bullies breaking your cataclysm. Or do a mental marathon of micromanaging rift surge, stasis, your iframes, energy conga line and nullifier AoE to not die, something very few other frames directly struggle with.

[Swagernator22663]

Children hate him.

[AlphaPHENIX]

31 minutes ago, Travis05 said:

1. People who havent one, or they never played with one. They dont understand his mechanics and get angry cause they think they are being trolled.

I've got a Limbo, granted I rarely play Limbo.

But I still don't understand why DE thought it would be needed to add this little detail to Banish - ''If Limbo is in the material plane, only material-bound targets will be banished into the Rift plane for 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 seconds; if Limbo is in the Rift, then only Rift-bound targets will return to the material plane.'' It annoys me greatly.
I don't think I will ever get used to roll turning your Rift on and off. True, it is useful, but my bullet jump + mid-air roll muscle memory...
Also I miss the old version of Stasis; for roleplay purposes.

[kapn655321]

Rather than each side of this discussion trying to punch down at one another..

The important thing to remember is, each player has their own unique style, expression, intent, and interests. Warframe is fantastic at affording that option to any player through their own kit. "Why can't they just deal with playing the way that I see it?" is the pot calling the kettle black. Whether you think a play style is too simple, unnecessarily complicated, whatever, the point is that in improving the design of the game, it behooves all of us to determine a compromise that takes nothing away from each player's agency to enjoy their game.. whether that's by being able to play without being insulted, having a player complicate your intent, etc.

[kapn655321]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Tyreal2012 said:

i cannot shoot IN to a or THROUGH a snow globe.

Players shooting through either side of the snow globe should gain cold like Volt's shield gives lightning, with no interruption to bullets.

[LascarCapable]

I heard Limbo makes stuff much easier during the event. You should be welcome there.

Anyway, you definitely want a pre-made with people who can play around you. I recommend avoiding public missions as Limbo where people can't appreciate his services.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Ever had to endure a slow as hell Hydron run with a max range Limbo? The same one that freezes enemies right at their spawn points, preventing them from approaching the defense target that doesn't really need defense? It truly is disheartening. Yet Limbo always shined as a low range sortie defense frame.

Like others mention, same goes for bad Frosts and bad Novas.

It's about how you use it. Limbo gets fairly hated due to the brainless Limbo players who misuse him.

(Image caption off on purpose)

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[kwlingo]

6 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

I heard Limbo makes stuff much easier during the event. You should be welcome there.

Anyway, you definitely want a pre-made with people who can play around you. I recommend avoiding public missions as Limbo where people can't appreciate his services.

I agree with everything. Limbo is not wanted for content that is too easy because most frame can handle the content themselves. But once the levels go beyond weapon damage then Limbo will become the go to Frame. His kit is geared for infinite high level but on low levels the community doesn't need his abilities.

Im just glad they changed his kit a while back to allow bullets to fly. lol

[Squick]

Visuals that range from annoying to blinding, can prevent people from hacking (I've had multiple limbos get me killed while I was hacking in sorties by using cataclysm nearby), and then there's the ones that have never heard of effective hit point mods that go down if something so much as glances at them outside of stasis.

 

Lots of ways limbo can be incredibly annoying, even unintentionally. Very few ways he can be used well. Fortunately, most people seem to understand long duration cataclysm + stasis and never touch anything else at least.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

50 minutes ago, Swagernator22663 said:

Children hate him.

People that think they know how to play warframe hate him.

[Robolaser]

I mostly have two issues with some Limbo players: needlessly large bubble and very bright colors.

People want to feel helpful too, or just have fun killing things without too much interference. I think it's the same problem as with nuke frames. I don't use Limbo, but when i use Legerdemain Mirage in public games for example, i limit my build range to medium and don't spam it unless we start getting overwhelmed. I noticed this results in much less early extractions or "lone wolf 3 rooms away" behavior.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Robolaser

[SinergyX]

Only part i hate about Limbo is the mechanics behind it for other frames. You happy shooting stuff, few ability, suddenly no damage anymore.. oooh, bubble, melee them. Oooh wait, not anymore, bubble went smaller and now they are outside again and you cant hit em at all.

[Sharkgoblin]

if you play him on defense missions that requires enemies to be killed to go on, then you are trolling

if you play him on defense missions with a timer and someone bothers you then you found a S#&$ter that doesnt deserve to be considered

 

[AnatharsWrath]

Here's my issue with Limbo players. There is a time and a place when one might need a Limbo. bringing a limbo to a Lith mobile defense fissure (or any other low level easy mission like a hydron short affinity run) isnt necessary (unless you are re-leveling due to forma then i kinda understand).

If you need that level of defense for a mission where a firm breeze could kill an enemy i dont want to be anywhere near a rift zone. it just prevents me from killing distant enemies with my pinpoint semi-auto primary and i have to run out to engage then enemy which is fine. I can move away and be alright but i will lament that i the enemy basically gets to sit around and be a non-threat due to stasis if i remain near the objective. They are barely a threat as is, so shooting what amounts to cardboard cutouts in drug-induced silly zone isnt all that fun for me.

that being said, i do welcome Limbos in missions like SS murex runs or level 100 sortie M-Defs with nonsense like radiation hazard cause ive seen the mission fail several times cause some hapless tenno got irradiated right as they cast a nuke or was shooting near the console causing it to die instantly. 

Regardless of my feelings though, i do not believe i ever yelled at a limbo player or harassed one. I try not to cast shame on anyone cause i too play questionable frames at times in some missions cause im bored and want to mix it up.

[TastyTaro]

i believe people have problems with players rather than actual frame. it's like slow nova of survival >_> frame is ok, but players tend do stupid things, making experience of other players... worse.

[kapn655321]

11 minutes ago, Kel_Silonius said:

i believe people have problems with players rather than actual frame. it's like slow nova of survival >_> frame is ok, but players tend do stupid things, making experience of other players... worse.

The alleged stupid thing slowva does to upset people, is cast 4. It's not the players intent to slow down the turn around of enemies,.. it's likely their intent to make the enemy less threatening, more approachable, and easier to kill. The problem is in how it impacts efficiency of certain goals. Should slowva have a provision to improve affinity and loot drops for instance, it would make up the difference to some extent. These things hinge on the intent of other players, and state of meta and dominant strategy, and how that is counter balanced as to not have your choices be a detriment and inconvenience to others.

Speaking of which.. what would you guys think if Limbo's Cataclysm shrunk in stages, rather than over time? 20% intervals of it's duration at cast, rather than constantly leaving enemies in this awkward zone. This at least would staunch a portion of the conflict surrounding ease of use.. likewise visuals _{(make surfaces untextured or replaced with Simulacrum flooring to identify Cataclysm area without bring intrusive colors)}.. a stark visual overhaul of what represents an enemy in the rift _{(like a unique place holder instead of the enemy,)} and the ability to opt out entirely should there be no workable solution to you.. _{(that being a a preference that borders on stylistic, is why I suggest the Ward cosmetic function earlier.)}

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

1 hour ago, AnatharsWrath said:

Here's my issue with Limbo players. There is a time and a place when one might need a Limbo. bringing a limbo to a Lith mobile defense fissure (or any other low level easy mission like a hydron short affinity run) isnt necessary (unless you are re-leveling due to forma then i kinda understand).

If you need that level of defense for a mission where a firm breeze could kill an enemy i dont want to be anywhere near a rift zone. it just prevents me from killing distant enemies with my pinpoint semi-auto primary and i have to run out to engage then enemy which is fine. I can move away and be alright but i will lament that i the enemy basically gets to sit around and be a non-threat due to stasis if i remain near the objective. They are barely a threat as is, so shooting what amounts to cardboard cutouts in drug-induced silly zone isnt all that fun for me.

Enemies that are level 25 or lower get instantly annihilated by a single cast of Cataclysm. The opening blast alone kills them. You won't see them get stopped by Stasis at all. If they try to enter the event horizon coming from the outside, the rift transition will kill them before you even see them. And its not like there aren't Limbo nuke builds used on Hydron. At least up to wave 10 only.

Basically, the reason why people hate Limbo is because they're not team players. 

They want to be the star. They want to be the hero. If not, then their ego takes a hit. Limbo is not a solo frame. He is a team frame for the simple fact that no other warframe in the game requires as much coordination in a squad that has a Limbo in it.

[DroopingPuppy]

Limbo is hated just because he was designed to be hated by DE. His faulted mechanism already hurts the community for years, so it is no wonder that why we still hate him. If we don't hate him, then it is something gone horribly wrong actually.

The funny thing is I am actually value his good side - as an auto-win button on mobile defense. But I am also hurted by Limbo badly too, and the presence of him makes opt to abandon the mission when there is a Limbo - especially have very large Cataclysm - and it forced me to have the habit to roll constantly(for Limbo spread the lift to trap us constantly every time he rolls, so I have to roll constantly to avoid it immediately).

But I bet that most people are simply remove him entirely from the game if they could, that I can't help. They are right because Limbo's design is so wicked and is designed to protect the enemy while hampers the 'ally' Tenno, and without too great care he simply becomes the enemy of Tenno.

The past was more fatal. He was able to simply stop playing the mission and forces the other players to ragequit on the defense/survival mission or ALL void fissure mission. For now at least it is not possible until he spams his 3, but still his presence is annoying unless he only use minimized cataclysm to protect defense object.

The point is, the core of the problem is his bad design that is even malevolent. If you use the other frame carelessly, it is only you that is penalized. But Limbo penalizes everyone, not just Limbo himself, and it penalizes the entire team unless he have great care to them. While we may blame some Limbo player, but DE have the responsibility for they make that malignant design.

Edited March 30, 2020 by DroopingPuppy

[DroopingPuppy]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Enemies that are level 25 or lower get instantly annihilated by a single cast of Cataclysm. The opening blast alone kills them. You won't see them get stopped by Stasis at all. If they try to enter the event horizon coming from the outside, the rift transition will kill them before you even see them. And its not like there aren't Limbo nuke builds used on Hydron. At least up to wave 10 only.

Basically, the reason why people hate Limbo is because they're not team players. 

They want to be the star. They want to be the hero. If not, then their ego takes a hit. Limbo is not a solo frame. He is a team frame for the simple fact that no other warframe in the game requires as much coordination in a squad that has a Limbo in it.

That's not true at all. Limbo's design is too selfish and what he can do is forces the others to follow his style or bust. He acts as a judge in the game, penalizes everyone as he pleases or they needs to strictly follows his lead. That's not the team play. Thats only playing tyranny.