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On the change to Venari Heal

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)Sentiel said:

Why not remove Defence modes as well and just keep Exterminate?

Give the main game the Railjack mission variety.

I’ve figured out how DE is going to make the game harder.  Whenever they drop new content, anything that works well against new content gets the nerf hammer...  the next update is going to be corpus based, so God help Hildryn… just call it a fix, and say it was unintended… 

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So far, I understand that people cheese SS with Limbo because he can freeze Sentients, right?

Did DE forget Sentients have the ability to adapt? Why touch Limbo when they can give Sentients the ability to adapt to Limbo's Rift?

Make the enemies freeze upon entering Rift but start moving in a second or two and get slowly faster and faster until they ignore the Rift completely. It will give the team time and opportunity to kill them but they can't just AFK. The best part? It makes sense lore wise!

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58 minutes ago, (PS4)Sentiel said:

So far, I understand that people cheese SS with Limbo because he can freeze Sentients, right?

Did DE forget Sentients have the ability to adapt? Why touch Limbo when they can give Sentients the ability to adapt to Limbo's Rift?

Make the enemies freeze upon entering Rift but start moving in a second or two and get slowly faster and faster until they ignore the Rift completely. It will give the team time and opportunity to kill them but they can't just AFK. The best part? It makes sense lore wise!

Yeah .. No! Thats too much work for them. Its easier to just nerf Limbo and call it a fix. 

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1 hour ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Who jumped to conclusions?  The people mad about it said: 

It was not a fix, because the ability intentionally did that.  We were right.

it was, in fact, a nerf and it was due to the event.  Right again.

Missing the point, which I will reiterate here: There is a correct way to give criticism and then there is this thread.  Villifying everything before an explanation can ever be given and then even once it is STILL choosing to see the worst in something.

My point is that this community has stopped being able to give criticism without coming off as extremely toxic and overly dramatic, and even after DE listens to your concerns and adjusts things based on your feedback. Nerfs are going to happen, and things which were features are going to be re-evaluated and changed. Are we going to throw a tantrum every time this happens or do you suppose the community is still capable of providing feedback without coming off as insane conspiracy theorists? That's my concern. 

Maybe I'm wrong and DE are simply evil corporate sadists who have no desire beyond ruining your enjoyment and taking your money. I can't imagine that makes much business sense, but it seems to be the popular opinion. 

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18 minutes ago, Acos said:

There is a correct way to give criticism and then there is this thread.  Villifying everything before an explanation can ever be given and then even once it is STILL choosing to see the worst in something.

This would be fare in most cases.  But when DE tyed to nerf loot frames,  claming it was a bug. . The community learnt the only thing DE seems to hear is outcry. .  This nerf brought back the communitys PSD for getting told clear BS.  The community is just over nerfs as a hole. ..  I dbout they would of even giving an explanation if there was no outcry. .  Alot of the community just dont trust DE after the loot nerf drama  because it's was a blatant lie. ..  so they felt like O here we go agine. ...

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Acos said:

Missing the point, which I will reiterate here: There is a correct way to give criticism and then there is this thread.  Villifying everything before an explanation can ever be given and then even once it is STILL choosing to see the worst in something.

01. They labelled an intended in-game feature as "bug" and removed it because it was interfering with their event which is extremely broken, buggy and incomplete in the first place.

02. They admitted later that its an in-game feature not a bug, but they removed it because it was easier to do so than working on the OpLinks to make it immune to Venari healing. 

03. We only heard an official explanation from their experienced community management team after 3 days of community out-cry. They still called it an "Exploit" something they made as a feature 2 years ago.

The whole thing is frustrating, starting from the event, bugs, hotfixes, more bugs, network crashes, missing rewards, Incomplete event shop, premature nerfs and trying to sweep it under the rug wasnt taken lightly by the community. Little things add up and eventually feels like enough. 

If they think Venaris ability to heal defense targets is OP/unfair and needs a nerf, they have every right to do so. But nerfing things to make their event work instead of fixing their broken event in the first place is not OK. Broken half boiled premature events aren't OK. Lying and misdirecting the community is not OK. How about that for a feedback?

DE you had 7 years to get your act together, we expect you to get better with time not worse.

Edited by --Aegis--MR9
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

This would be fare in most cases.  But when DE tyed to nerf loot frames,  claming it was a bug. . The community learnt the only thing DE seems to hear is outcry. .  This nerf brought back the communitys PSD for getting told clear BS.  The community is just over nerfs as a hole. ..  I dbout they would of even giving an explanation if there was no outcry. .  Alot of the community just dont trust DE after the loot nerf drama  because it's was a blatant lie. ..  so they felt like O here we go agine. ...

I read the topic in which Megan posted the clarification about what happened with the Venari change.

On page 2 of the topic, someone posted a screenshot pointing out the tooltip not matching the update. For the next 4 pages it was business as usual, with a smattering of “DE done lied” scattered amongst the posts and quoting that screenshot post.

On page 7, she posted the clarification.

Many people went nuts.

There were posts dripping with malicious sarcasm about how the patch notes were saying “fix” when they meant “nerf”, and cries of doom saying “Oh, they’ll nerf everything that heals“. There were posts that, even if they weren’t emotionally-charged, they spoke as if they knew what was happening within DE, and that it’s so obvious what is wrong

These were people who considered themselves hurt by DE’s actions in the past. And what did they do? They abused Megan in her topic because they thought they were abusing DE through her, because by attacking DE there was some sort of expectation that they would straighten up and fly right.

Don’t get me wrong; I saw, scattered amongst those toxic/ignorant posts, some  people thanked her for clarifying, even if the posters themselves weren’t happy with the fact that it came to be in the first place, and I can respect those.

But I look at those aforementioned awful posts, and I wonder... Am I supposed to be on their side?

As someone with no stake in the matter (I have neither Khora nor can I access Scarlet Spear) except to see Warframe improve, am I supposed to read those posts and think to myself “Boy, I can see they’re hurting, and I want to stand with them”?

‘Cause I can tell you whether I want to be standing shoulder-to-shoulder against whatever injustice gets thrown their way.

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Many people went nuts..............

As someone with no stake in the matter (I have neither Khora nor can I access Scarlet Spear) except to see Warframe improve, am I supposed to read those posts and think to myself “Boy, I can see they’re hurting, and I want to stand with them”?

You wouldn't understand why many people went nuts. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, --Aegis--MR9 said:

You wouldn't understand why many people went nuts. 

That’s right. So what am I supposed to make of what I see, if I don’t know why people went nuts?

I’m an outsider looking in, and people can either onboard me with their cause, or they can drive me away with their actions

 

 

 

edit: There’s something funny about this phrase that I just invented.... 🤔 ...I’m also onboarded by actions or driven away by causes too, right..? hrmmmm....

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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40 minutes ago, --Aegis--MR9 said:

We only heard an official explanation from their experienced community management team after 3 days of community out-cry. They still called it an "Exploit" something they made as a feature 2 years ago.

If they think Venaris ability to heal defense targets is OP/unfair and needs a nerf, they have every right to do so. But nerfing things to make their event work instead of fixing their broken event in the first place is not OK. Broken half boiled premature events aren't OK. Lying and misdirecting the community is not OK. How about that for a feedback?

To continue my role of devil's advocate or "white knight": 3-days response time is unheard of, at least in any MMO community I have been a part of. I would have killed for that kind of response time from FFXI, CoH, WoW, ESO, GW2, CoD, GTA, practically any other online game you could think of, especially given the current world-wide state of affairs. I don't think their team is very well put together right now considering; Even so they are still listening to community feedback and making adjustments, even for a relatively niche group of very vocal venari enthusiasts. They are listening to youThat should be... something. 

I didn't intemperate them calling Venari's heal an exploit specifically, rather that they were rushing to fix potential exploits with their event and "fixed" things that weren't meant to be "fixed". I'm willing to forgive poor word choice or internal miscommunication; They clarified their intent shortly there-after. Perhaps they were simply maliciously trying to cover their tracks after they blatantly announced an unpopular nerf to the benefit of... nothing? I don't buy it, since that doesn't really make any kind of sense.

I have given a lot of feedback over the years of playing this game, and I have generally found that increasing my dramatic output has not been necessary to illicit change. I'm sorry if you think that method has helped influence communication since I feel it will only encourage more of the same. 

Beyond that, In the regards more to Scarlet Spear & less to venari specifically; DE has, for as long as I've known them, released content and adjusted for player feedback, especially for the PC community. I am very used to them doing things this way so I am not bothered when content ships with bugs that didn't come up until thousands of people were providing feedback or the reward schema feeling off. I can understand this not jiving with a newer player base who wants perfect content at launch, but the thing to understand about DE's method is that it allows them to push content much sooner than they could otherwise and fix bugs that they likely wouldn't have come across internally anyway. You know that joke we all tell about Warframe never leaving Beta? It's not really a joke. 

I don't think it's a bad method either; I've done a lot of different games and watched developers take much longer to release less content than DE does for an event and you know what? There are always bugs. There are always oversights. There are always problems. DE took 3 days to specifically address yours. That should be something. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Acos said:

There is a correct way to give criticism and then there is this thread.  Villifying everything before an explanation can ever be given and then even once it is STILL choosing to see the worst in something.

It gives the thread traction and visibility. 

I made an account here recently mostly to give feedback and report issues and none of my feedback and bug posts got any attention and none of the issues have been fixed.

If the correct way to give criticism doesn't work and there are MANY civil and well written posts about Venari Heal, Scarlet Spear issues and MANY more recent issues, this way likely won't work either, but people want to try another approach as well before they can give up.

EDIT

Just to clarify, I'm not defending nor supporting such behaviour, but I can understand the frustration that lead to this whole mess.

Edited by (PS4)Sentiel
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23 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I read the topic in which Megan posted the clarification about what happened with the Venari change.

On page 2 of the topic, someone posted a screenshot pointing out the tooltip not matching the update. For the next 4 pages it was business as usual, with a smattering of “DE done lied” scattered amongst the posts and quoting that screenshot post.

On page 7, she posted the clarification.

Many people went nuts.

There were posts dripping with malicious sarcasm about how the patch notes were saying “fix” when they meant “nerf”, and cries of doom saying “Oh, they’ll nerf everything that heals“. There were posts that, even if they weren’t emotionally-charged, they spoke as if they knew what was happening within DE, and that it’s so obvious what is wrong

These were people who considered themselves hurt by DE’s actions in the past. And what did they do? They abused Megan in her topic because they thought they were abusing DE through her, because by attacking DE there was some sort of expectation that they would straighten up and fly right.

Don’t get me wrong; I saw, scattered amongst those toxic/ignorant posts, some  people thanked her for clarifying, even if the posters themselves weren’t happy with the fact that it came to be in the first place.

But I look at those aforementioned awful posts, and I wonder... Am I supposed to be on their side?

As someone with no stake in the matter (I have neither Khora nor can I access Scarlet Spear) except to see Warframe improve, am I supposed to read those posts and think to myself “Boy, I can see they’re hurting, and I want to stand with them”?

‘Cause I can tell you whether I want to be standing shoulder-to-shoulder against whatever injustice gets thrown their way.

Ok  thank you for the clarification. .

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

Ok  thank you for the clarification. .

😋 

Sorry for dumping a wall of text on your lap 😓

Edited by (NSW)Greybones

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

"Do you work at DE and know it was intended?  The big fat 'intentional' tag on the ability doesn't mean it was intentional."  "Objectives that you defend are not necessarily 'Defense Objectives.'" Those are real things I've watched you people spout trying to defend this mess.  There was even the guy in this thread trying to argue over the capitalization of the wording in the tip to prove that it wasn't inten- Oh, there's Megan calling it intentional.  This is all the concrete proof that anyone could ever need that people who blindly go along with and defend every choice a developer makes, do in fact exist.

That's why i tagged them on Meg's announcement.

4 hours ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

I’ve figured out how DE is going to make the game harder.  Whenever they drop new content, anything that works well against new content gets the nerf hammer...  the next update is going to be corpus based, so God help Hildryn… just call it a fix, and say it was unintended… 

Alongside magnetic and toxin damage.

Edited by Jarriaga
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14 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Well, there it is:

So Venari's original function of healing stationary targets was intentional.

@SneakyErvin & @ShaperOfForm Come back here to argue semantics.

And I never implied it wasnt. I implied the tip can be interpreted both ways due to how it is actually written and formated. As I said, the tooltip is probably not 100% correct in either case, so one cannot claim it as proof to it working correctly as it did. Especially not when we have knowledge about other healing abilities from frames not working on static objects. So like I said, only DE knows if it was intentional or not. Which they've now said it was, in which case they should also change the tooltip accordingly, that is if they refer to targets outside of Defense mode aswell, which they still arent very clear on.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

But I look at those aforementioned awful posts, and I wonder... Am I supposed to be on their side?

You are supposed to be on your own side:

- Do not blindly go along with the community.

- Do not blindly go along with DE's decisions.

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17 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

You are supposed to be on your own side:

- Do not blindly go along with the community.

- Do not blindly go along with DE's decisions.

Thanks for the tip, but I’ll stand with those I respect. Not out of blindness, but with critical thought and trust.

There’s more than a few here on the forums I respect

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And I never implied it wasnt. I implied the tip can be interpreted both ways due to how it is actually written and formated. As I said, the tooltip is probably not 100% correct in either case, so one cannot claim it as proof to it working correctly as it did. Especially not when we have knowledge about other healing abilities from frames not working on static objects. So like I said, only DE knows if it was intentional or not. Which they've now said it was, in which case they should also change the tooltip accordingly, that is if they refer to targets outside of Defense mode aswell, which they still arent very clear on.

Right.....

23 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But the change is a fix, since stationary targets have never been intended to be able to be healed with frame abilities.

22 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The game has seperated those things for a long time, it was just overlooked with Venari.

 

18 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

All the angry khora players are relying on a tip in the game to back up their statement about venari being nerfed and not fixed. Even though the tip from the game they rely on states something completely different, if you have the slightest knowledge about the english language.

And I assume the reddit thing was provided by a khora main (or atleast seemed like you implied that), thus someone who obviously doesnt have a way with words since it was angry based on a change that even the tip in the game states was justified, even though the mechanic worked differenlty in-game. Since it worked differently than described it was obviously a fix.

18 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You mean a lack of a way with words because they cant even read two lines in a tip properly, even when they try to use it to back up their opinion.

And the absolute best of the best when placed on the context of the above:

22 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I have no need to prove it since I simply use common sense.

No, you didn't just "imply the tip can be interpreted both ways due to how it is actually written and formatted". You were so sure of it being an actual obvious fix to a bug (In your high horse) that you started labeling people who didn't agree with you as having reading comprehension issues that can't even read two lines. No dude, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too by placing yourself in the fence now, as measured and collected, after having the balls drop the common sense argument on top of that when it failed spectacularly.

Take this is a lesson in humility.

Edited by Jarriaga
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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Thanks for the tip, but I’ll stand with those I respect. Not out of blindness, but with critical thought and trust.

There’s more than a few here on the forums I respect

Unless you happen to believe those you respect and trust are infallible and unable to get things badly wrong when being critical, assigning additional weight because of who they are, then it's no different from blindly following.

- Do not blindly go along with those you respect and trust. In fact, these are people it's the hardest to be critical against.

Be selfish. Think and reason from the perspective of a customer and defend your own rights.

DE need no defenders. The community doesn't need soldiers. People you trust are not exempt from getting high smelling their own farts. Neither you or I.

Edited by Jarriaga
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2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Right.....

 

And the absolute best of the best when placed on the context of the above:

No, you didn't just "imply the tip can be interpreted both ways due to how it is actually written and formatted". You were so sure of it being an actual obvious fix to a bug (In your high horse) that you started labeling people who didn't agree with you as having reading comprehension issues that can't even read two lines. No dude, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too after having the balls to on top of that dropping the common sense argument when it failed spectacularly.

Take this is a lesson in humility.

How does any of that say the opposite of what you quoted? It was based on the same tip to show it can be interpreted both ways, which it can, which I also said in one of my earlier posts (that you so willingly ignored to include).

We still dont have an actual confirmation that DE are refering to anything ouside of the Defense mode either, that is the only thing that actually needs a clarification. Since the tip itself is obvious regarding what it refers to within Defense. Which is static objectives only, which I admit means that in Venrai's case it was special behavior since the tip specifically states that her healing is intended to be used on static Defense objectives. Which means my "common sense" comment may have been out of line since I didnt account for the wording refering to static objectives only. There is simply no reason why it should refer to those that are mobile, since they are already covered by the skill mechanics naturally, since they are allies, so the aura already effects them when it heals and you can target them for dedicated uptime aswell that ignores Venari's other trigger variables and turns the target into the trigger. You however do not need to target them in order for them to get healed under normal circumstances.

If the intended behavior was for it to work on all static targets in all mission types, then they should have made that clearer in the tip, since Defense is a very specific mode and the wording of the tip puts focus on that mode.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Unless you happen to believe those you respect and trust are infallible and unable to get things badly wrong when being critical, assigning additional weight because of who they are, then it's no different from blindly following.

- Do not blindly go along with those you respect and trust. In fact, these are people it's the hardest to be critical against.

Be selfish. Think and reason from the perspective of a customer and defend your own rights.

DE need no defenders. The community doesn't need soldiers. People you trust are not except from smelling their own farts.

What... are you trying to convince me of...? 🤔 That I’m unable to think for myself...? That I think people are perfect?

You’re really pressing on me, and I’m not sure what you’re trying to do.

Are you warning me? Educating me of the ways of the world? Are you taking the handful of posts that I’ve made, crafting an impression of me in your mind, and deciding that I’m somehow lacking in reasoning capability?

You seem to be imparting some sort of wisdom for me to consume, yet all I am is confused as to why you think I need it 😔

Edited by (NSW)Greybones

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6 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

That I think people are perfect?

I got the impression you give more weight to opinions from people you trust, as exemplified by your response on which opinions to side with. And I'm not even referring to 100% trust, but a meager +1 simply because you trust them. If that's not the case then disregard.

If it is the case, then at least consider the advice.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I got the impression you give more weight to opinions from people you trust, as exemplified by your response on which opinions to side with. And I'm not even referring to 100% trust, but a meager +1 simply because you trust them. If that's not the case then disregard.

If it is the case, then at least consider the advice.

Ah yeah, I can see how you would come to that conclusion.

It’s all good, whatever negative impression implied is now water under the bridge.

Usually I’m really hesitant to do a +1 like to a post because, while I can see points against DE that I’d agree with or I can see someone making a good point in DE’s defense, it’s almost never as simple as what they’re saying. Finding someone’s post I agree with without explaining what I’m agreeing to is a rarity 😛 

I’ll gladly take what you said as food for thought.

edit: I’ve talked enough about myself in this topic about something very different 😓

Edited by (NSW)Greybones

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44 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Unless you happen to believe those you respect and trust are infallible and unable to get things badly wrong when being critical, assigning additional weight because of who they are, then it's no different from blindly following.

- Do not blindly go along with those you respect and trust. In fact, these are people it's the hardest to be critical against.

Be selfish. Think and reason from the perspective of a customer and defend your own rights.

DE need no defenders. The community doesn't need soldiers. People you trust are not exempt from getting high smelling their own farts. Neither you or I.

Making demands about your own little corner of the content with no consideration of other players or the game as a whole is weird and gross and counterproductive and is the opposite of being a smart consumer. In cases that the community is divided on something, like the self-damage argument, you're just competing to be louder; everywhere else you're just demanding the game makes you more powerful and especially that players never lose an inch in anything they've ever been given in that direction. In every case, you're creating conversations no one wants to be a part of and demanding a worse product so long as it caters to you.

Keeping every weird meta advantage in a build is not a damn right. 

But Khora is only like my #3 or #4 in usage and I'm still 4k points short of the third Scarlet Spear emblem, so I'm sure I can't possibly understand the tragedy you're all enduring. = P

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42 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

keeping every weird meta advantage in a build is not a damn right. 

But Khora is only like my #3 or #4 in usage and I'm still 4k points short of the third Scarlet Spear emblem, so I'm sure I can't possibly understand the tragedy you're all enduring. = P

Here is the shocking part, atleast for me. I did quite some SS runs, and never once, encountered a Khora. On the other hand, there is always a limbo. And when you have a limbo, max run in ground or space is easy clap. 

Khora mains don't care about the event. They are upset because this silly bug infested event combined with DE's lack of will to fix things properly took away their ability to solo 1h+ kuva survivals or little bit of breathing room in sortie defences. 

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