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Slaytanic93

On the change to Venari Heal

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On 2020-04-01 at 12:42 PM, Jarriaga said:

-snip- ...people who don't know the game... -snip-

Yeah, you probably have the gist of one or more of the scenarios you describe. People make mistakes. What I'm saying is, before we pop on tinfoil hats and start lighting torches, let's remember:

- Everyone is working from home right now. Communication isn't as easy, fast or comprehensive as in one physical office space. Mis- or lack of communication is a lot easier.

- With hundreds of people working on a massive project, no single person can be expected to remember literally everything about the game.

- "knowing the game" is a stupidly vague term to base a point on in the first place. There are players out there who can rhyme off their best build for any weapon you can name, they may "know the game", but they still have no clue you can break Frost's 3 with his 1.

On 2020-04-01 at 10:52 AM, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

Ether way ,community outrage is the only way to get DE to notice this " mistake " and fix it

I don't think it is. Bring things to attention, give feedback, but don't be a Karen about it. Be mature about things.

Outrage is just a great way for creators to start thinking, "wow, look at this spoiled, tantrum-throwing a**hole, I'm just going to ignore what he says on principle".

On 2020-04-01 at 10:52 AM, Zeclem said:

they are a single company. companies arent communities, they are expected to have a singular vision and are expected to work in unison through their chain of command. 

Ever had a boss come and ask you how a task was going, but you didn't know you had that task because it was someone else's job to tell you to do it?

I have a feeling it's something like this happening with Venari. People work in unison, but they do not share a brain, so some thoughts get left out or forgotten. Someone was asked to fix an interaction, figured the entire type of interaction was the issue, but the niche feature that's part of the game was overlooked when this happened. It happened when Hysterical Assault was borked when Channeling got removed, it happened when Kavats were added and we were allowed to breed Kavbrows, it's probably what's happened with this.

I think people who are talking about "company vision" and "community feedback" are overreacting and making much too big a deal out of this, putting on a tinfoil hat and thinking this is some kind of malicious attack on tooltip features when it was really, very likely, a genuine mistake.

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Just now, SenorClipClop said:

Ever had a boss come and ask you how a task was going, but you didn't know you had that task because it was someone else's job to tell you to do it?

if that happens too often, which it does with DE, theres a problem with that company.

Just now, SenorClipClop said:

I think people who are talking about "company vision" and "community feedback" are overreacting and making much too big a deal out of this, putting on a tinfoil hat and thinking this is some kind of malicious attack on tooltip features when it was really, very likely, a genuine mistake.

its almost like de has spent the goodwill they gathered over the years.

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4 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

if that happens too often, which it does with DE, theres a problem with that company.

How often does this actually happen, though?

5 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

its almost like de has spent the goodwill they gathered over the years.

You could certainly debate it. Hard to gauge a genuine community satisfaction though when about 10% has always been thinking DE is the boogeyman actively trying to destroy their every hope and dream. Too many people impulsively crybullying to really get a sense of it.

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Simply reason for the nerf is they don't play the game and the players always using the options available in a said mission. They want us to loot less and slower and in ultimately making the game more tedious than it is actually. I know they want money from the players but making the game worse is not the option to go. If they added an ability or anything in the game they must playtest it with the normal version and not in the dev version. Sadly the pc players are the test subjects and the bug testers aswell. Saying fix something without wording correctly makes them less reasonable. Actually I think they could go with this instead of fixed  " We are going to change this ability because we feel this ability makes the game more easier and we are not wanted this ability do the X,Y. ". Basically this but the rhetoric is always shady there.

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Every time DE introduces an event they realizing it how their games works. Surprise the players use x-y items to do z things and these events shows that what peoples will use for do a job. DE then nerf because they think that is a bad meta and they forgot what they did. Who coded then the Venari if they does not knew the Venari capable to heal objectives? 

I did not read the forums lately but I feel the forums are waste of time because no matter how many feedbacks you send to them they always using just band aids and "fixing" what not should be fixed or just weakly communicates on what is their intention. Without a clear direction and vision this game never will be great. 

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2 hours ago, --Aegis--MR9 said:

Khora mains don't care about the event. They are upset because this silly bug infested event combined with DE's lack of will to fix things properly took away their ability to solo 1h+ kuva survivals or little bit of breathing room in sortie defences. 

I don't know if you missed this, but while there were some people very early in this thread incorrectly assuming and stating as fact that human operatives couldn't be marked and healed, that was never the case and no one who tested anything ever said it was, and it was repeatedly corrected by the people who had. Doesn't help with your kuva capsules, of course, but the Khora mains upset about sortie defenses are literally not paying attention.

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8 hours ago, Acos said:

Villifying everything before an explanation can ever be given and then even once it is STILL choosing to see the worst in something.

I don't need an explanation to understand that given their phrasing and their history of doing this exact thing, that the nerf was being spun as a "fix" to make it look like not a nerf, which is dishonest.  I don't need someone to tell me they're lying when they're caught in it and have been caught in the same lie before.  You want examples?  People are bringing up examples of them doing this in the past all over the forums and subreddit.  I'm not choosing to see the worst, I'm choosing to see the truth.

They're putting out trash content, nerfing things that don't suit their specific content, spinning their nerf as a fix, and now they're back peddling by calling the fix, that they admit was intended all along, an exploit.  The fact that they are now labeling it an exploit is only further proof of the mindset behind the initial lie.

The fact that they are nerfing part of the core game based on a time-limited event is also worrisome.  The fact that they are focusing on player nerfs at all when there are much, MUCH more important things they need to be working on to get back the goodwill they used to have with their players and get the game into a better state is also worrisome.

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2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

I don't think it is. Bring things to attention, give feedback, but don't be a Karen about it. Be mature about things.

Outrage is just a great way for creators to start thinking, "wow, look at this spoiled, tantrum-throwing a**hole, I'm just going to ignore what he says on principle".

I fully agree with you,,  when I say outrage I mean speaking up,,  been loud, not being an %$#@ about it..  They didn’t respond to as anyway. They responded to reddit…..

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7 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

There were posts dripping with malicious sarcasm about how the patch notes were saying “fix” when they meant “nerf”

They did say fix and meant nerf.  That ship has sailed.  That's what happened.

7 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

“Oh, they’ll nerf everything that heals“.

They've already said they're now "reviewing" those things.  Historically, that means nerfs are coming.


They've been at this MO for quite a while now.  People are tired of it.  I used to get shouted down for the mere suggestion that anything was wrong.  The first 3 pages of upcoming patch notes used to be filled with "Thank you, DE.  We love you, DE.  You're amazing, DE."  If a dev deigned to visit the subreddit and make a comment, they were instantly upvoted into the hundreds or even thousands regardless of what they said, sometimes higher than the upvote count for the post itself.  Celebrity worship at it's finest.  They could literally go into a complaint thread on the subreddit, make one comment that was the most politely worded "#*!% you guys, learn to deal with it, we're not changing anything." you've ever seen, and despite not hearing anything they wanted to hear, the players would still upvote them into the hundreds.

One of the devs went into a complaint thread on the subreddit yesterday and just reposted Megan's comment to make it worse by calling it an exploit "clarify" what happened and they were instantly downvoted into the negatives and there was a loooong trail of furious comments after that.  I went from getting crucified by white knights and the general player base alike for making negative feedback posts, to getting multiple PM's in support of me voicing my negative opinions on the game, despite frequent moderation.

There has been a massive sea change in the position of the player base and how they feel about the devs and it is entirely the devs own doing.  You can't spend (at least) 2 years breaking promises, introducing more bugs than you fix, and nerfing anything the players think is fun while not adding more fun to the game and instead adding grind after you promised a decrease in grind and expect your players to still have that same energy.

They got rid of one slot machine mechanic one time and had them talking about it documented on video, and they rode that wave of goodwill for years.  Most of the goodwill has burned up.  People are angry because a lot of us have well over 1,000 hours invested and lord knows how much money and feel the game is declining rapidly.  DE decides where this goes from here by their actions, not their spin, and if they stay down this path relations will only get worse.

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16 hours ago, Acos said:

I'm glad we all waited for developer response before jumping to conclusions or becoming enraged by our own assumptions for 9 pages. 

That sounded so authoritarian I almost thought I was being told that im not allowed to voice my complaint, consume and never think.

 

We were just proven right two times in a row. It wasn't a fix, it was a nerf like DE always does, and it was explicitly said that it was intentional.

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On 2020-03-31 at 3:01 PM, Slaytanic93 said:

Following the recent Hotfix, Venari was changed to no longer be able to heal OpLinks, under the justification that OpLinks aren't meant to be affected by any abilities.

So far, so good. It's an event, and supposed to bring some challenge, I guess... No big deal.

This OP is from Tuesday so there have been a few hotfixes since but as of the last (27.3.8 + 27.3.8.1) patch...ran a ground mission...Nova, Frost, Rhino...and amazingly the Oplinks were regenerating health. So maybe the 'fix' was to break a frames healing but to give Oplinks self regeneration powers!

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54 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

They did say fix and meant nerf.  That ship has sailed.  That's what happened.

They've already said they're now "reviewing" those things.  Historically, that means nerfs are coming.


They've been at this MO for quite a while now.  People are tired of it.  I used to get shouted down for the mere suggestion that anything was wrong.  The first 3 pages of upcoming patch notes used to be filled with "Thank you, DE.  We love you, DE.  You're amazing, DE."  If a dev deigned to visit the subreddit and make a comment, they were instantly upvoted into the hundreds or even thousands regardless of what they said, sometimes higher than the upvote count for the post itself.  Celebrity worship at it's finest.  They could literally go into a complaint thread on the subreddit, make one comment that was the most politely worded "#*!% you guys, learn to deal with it, we're not changing anything." you've ever seen, and despite not hearing anything they wanted to hear, the players would still upvote them into the hundreds.

One of the devs went into a complaint thread on the subreddit yesterday and just reposted Megan's comment to make it worse by calling it an exploit "clarify" what happened and they were instantly downvoted into the negatives and there was a loooong trail of furious comments after that.  I went from getting crucified by white knights and the general player base alike for making negative feedback posts, to getting multiple PM's in support of me voicing my negative opinions on the game, despite frequent moderation.

There has been a massive sea change in the position of the player base and how they feel about the devs and it is entirely the devs own doing.  You can't spend (at least) 2 years breaking promises, introducing more bugs than you fix, and nerfing anything the players think is fun while not adding more fun to the game and instead adding grind after you promised a decrease in grind and expect your players to still have that same energy.

They got rid of one slot machine mechanic one time and had them talking about it documented on video, and they rode that wave of goodwill for years.  Most of the goodwill has burned up.  People are angry because a lot of us have well over 1,000 hours invested and lord knows how much money and feel the game is declining rapidly.  DE decides where this goes from here by their actions, not their spin, and if they stay down this path relations will only get worse.

100% my friend.  I got into this game because of skillup and the noclip documentry...  . Just it's before fortuna..  it all sounded amazing. . What cool devs.  How cute is rebb..  and I watch the last two tennocoins  and couldn't wait for railjack and new war at Christmas. .

The way it was all handled was so disappointing.. I felt lied too and haven't brought a PA since. ....I'm only waiting for the new war to drop. .. if that's another harf baked update full of broken promises. .. I'm out.  That's not hyperbolic anger. .... 

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On 2020-04-02 at 7:57 PM, ItsDaKoolaidDude said:

That sounded so authoritarian I almost thought I was being told that im not allowed to voice my complaint, consume and never think.

 

We were just proven right two times in a row. It wasn't a fix, it was a nerf like DE always does, and it was explicitly said that it was intentional.

You're going to get super moderated for the insults.  RIP, brother.

Witnessed.

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16 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

You're going to get super moderated for the insults.  RIP, brother.

Witnessed.

Witness me

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As player with near 3y playing game I very much love Warframe. Ignored a lot of nerfs ( Banshee was very badly executed) and I stayed quiet and played... but

No wonder Veteran players , like from my ex -clan- Warlord went 6 months ago to play Destiny 2, because -he was sick of manipulating words( Venari healing Aura on TIPS is now OPERATION  EXPLOIT) , constant bad changes in Warframe abilities (Slash and Nekros, Arcane Velocity and MESA.), and whole last year just NERFING STUFF.

That's just RUINING FUN and making more and more angry players, who in end  QUIT, not making pause in playing Warframe.


Im playing mostly KHORA, and Im angry. Who ever got idea to change YOUR words and explaining in TPIS of warframes abilities - and remove healing aura for  DEFENSIVE OBJECTS - Better should repair bugs in game instead ...

and whats worst- Venari was very slowly healing all defencive objects.

Please DE dont behave like this.. dont make people sad and after angry... 
Also.. stay healthy and safe

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2 minutes ago, gordianknot said:

Please DE dont behave like this.. dont make people sad and after angry... 

Something tells me they'll never care or listen.

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"We’re doing a deeper review on abilities that heal Defense Targets that we can speak to in the coming days."

Incoming Venari nerf. They are gonna remove her ability to heal the defense targets now. Rip venari.

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4 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

They did say fix and meant nerf.  That ship has sailed.  That's what happened.

If that ship has sailed, why is the wake destroying some people? 

That ship hasn’t sailed. It plays too much the crucial part that people are using to make a “Betrayed Players” argument in defense of awful behaviour.

edit: I’m no fan of celebrity worship either. Blech!

 

Losing faith happens. Some are left thinking “Guess we’ll see whether I was right to trust them. I’ll be sad and hurt if it turns out I can’t”. Some are left thinking “I’m so done. Peace out”, and they leave. Some are left thinking “Alright, I trusted them enough, time to give as good as I got”.

That last one. I have not the words to describe my feelings regarding people who feel so hurt by a game’s necessary evolution, however it manifests, that they’d feel the need to attack it.

The thing is, to DE, who we are individually, with our feelings, is a community. Sometimes, very rarely, we may be singled out as a source of inspiration. But most of the time, we have our individual names and opinions that ultimately mean little except to each other and ourselves, and instead it’s the combination of our small voices that make waves.

This is hardly an unreasonable approach to a large group of people, mind you. Unless someone has a better way of doing it?

What I’m witnessing right now is a community that makes waves by screaming and shouting, and because I’m part of that community I’m being swept up in it and my own voice is being added to the masses without my consent.

And I detest it so much.

There’s so much anger, but it’s to make DE stronger. It’s because people love Warframe, it’s because people want DE to listen again, it’s because they want DE to be on their side.

Right?

And this is how they want it to happen? 🤔

 

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43 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

And this is how they want it to happen?

Very little changes if we quietly do things, this has been proven time and again. Waves need to be created by shouting and voice our concerns and opinions to get them seen and heard.

Make enough noise and people in power will make the change or influence it. Be it outside influence (Jim Sterling being an example) or Warframe partners, that help put pressure on DE to make changes that they might not be so willing to change. Even if it's for the betterment of the game or just because they make sense.  

DE even now clings onto a reward bonus for SS even though it isn't working correctly, and those that don't reach the bonus (or miss it, even by 1 point) don't get the bonus at all, even though they worked just as hard. Instead, DE fights to keep it in - to the detriment of the event - by increasing the base amount of credits you get. Which is a nice addition, but doesn't solve the problem, band-aid on the bullet wound as it were. 

 

48 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’m being swept up in it and my own voice is being added to the masses without my consent.

Technically, if you're happy with how Warframe is right now, simply not voicing your opinion is good enough. If you aren't happy but don't agree with how others portray things, then simply make your own topic on the matter and discuss there. 

 

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1 hour ago, Tinklzs said:

Technically, if you're happy with how Warframe is right now, simply not voicing your opinion is good enough. If you aren't happy but don't agree with how others portray things, then simply make your own topic on the matter and discuss there. 

I totally agree with not voicing my opinion. I hate having people learn about me through what I say, and if I can find someone else willing to say things like “I like this thing!” I’d much rather let them speak for me. Within reason. Regarding my own topic, trust me I would, but I’d be called out for meta-complaining and probably locked 😔

I’ll definitely need to give the rest of your post some consideration 🤔 There’s something inherently wrong with what I see as defense of abuse, but I haven’t quite worked out how I’ll phrase it within the context you’ve provided, or even what it is that I’m going to phrase, and you’ve given me food for thought

edit: Was just scrolling through the forums, thinkin’ about what you said, and came across this post

I hate using the OP in a way it wasn’t meant to be used, but I liked how objective the poster was, and it compelled me to look through the comments to see what people had to say.

Some of them brought up old tweaks and changes to Warframes, and how people reacted to them. It felt applicable to the current topic I’m posting this in

For the record I like how the OP was written for this topic that I’m posting in, and sorry that it keeps getting digressed on my behalf 😓

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This kind of behavior from DE scares me, labeling clearly stated game mechanics as bugs so they can remove the functionality of something just because it makes a boring and repetitive event trivial. By this logic, they could literally do anything they wanted and we would have no way to avoid the nerf aside from raging at them. If they remove a functionality from Revenant (my favorite frame) with the excuse of it being a “bug”, I’m just going to stop playing.

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I think I’ve got my response to what you said, @Tinklzs.

You’re right that we make noise to be heard. It’s absolutely correct to think that the wave we make together should be worth listening to. That’s the value of us as a community being able to influence the game we play. I retract my initial impression that you were supporting abuse, after mulling over what you said.

But what is the noise we are making as of this moment? On this forum, Reddit, and elsewhere, what do you think DE is hearing as of this writing?

I’ve seen many posts that make good points. “I’m confused as to how this is a fix when it’s got its own tooltip, please clarify” is an example. It was odd that there was a conflict going on there, and asking for clarification is completely justified.

I’ve also seen so much more aggressive behaviour. It’s okay to be mad, people, but keep it on-point and leave the emotion at the door as much as possible. For some, they can’t keep the vitriol from leaking into otherwise good points. For others, objectivity has flown out the window, and “I’m So Mad!” has replaced it. For others still it’s scathing wit meant to hurt or conspiracy meant to discredit. A lot of it is just spite in general.

According to @(XB1)TehChubbyDugan the clarification response on Reddit got downvoted into oblivion. Why would people take the clarification asked for by players and throw it back into someone’s face? The answer’s in that topic, after the response, and it’s not pretty and is in fact painful and saddening to read.

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2 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

what do you think DE is hearing as of this writing?

DE will hear whatever they want to hear. A great example is rahetalius talking about DE's support of the lotus council + some of the moderators (chat and otherwise). Even though what he said was truthful, DE took offense to it calling it character assassination (basically) on twitter and said they were disappointed in him / wanted him to stop attacking them. Even though he had support from a good size of the playerbase.

This, Kuva liches, Railjack SS etc. will be no different. DE will do whatever they want until they determine our complaints are a roadblock and decide to do something about it, for better or worse. We just hope they make the 'right' choices so we feel like staying, that's the only thing.

2 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Why would people take the clarification asked for by players and throw it back into someone’s face?

You sound very naive when saying this. Going to be blunt. 

DE knew full well of Khora's abilities (and limbos) well before this event was conceived, no excuse for them not to have made OPlinks with those abilities in mind and made announcements/changes accordingly. Them nerfing venari out of nowhere, saying it was an exploit, when other frames/mechanics exist that are much much higher on that spectrum, while still being 'legal' mechanics. DE just has lack of foresight (as usual) seen someone playing with a toy DE said we could have (khora venari) then ripped it out and said "I didn't say you could have this". Only after the VERY LOUD NOISES did DE try to save face and say it was a mistake. 

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37 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

Only after the VERY LOUD NOISES did DE try to save face and say it was a mistake. 

Even worse after that they lied about it and tried to frame it as another thing.

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12 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

what do you think DE is hearing as of this writing?

"Stop lying."  "Stop putting BS spin on things."  "Be honest."  "Stop nerfing us."  "Fix your game."  "Do the things you promised you'd do."

I got sent home from work because I developed a cough, so I've had plenty of time to lurk the forums.  Especially since I'm not going to be playing until they undo that ridiculous nerf.  Just gonna be on the forums doing my thing, lurking around ever so often, whenever I'm not playing a different game.  That's what I've seen on the forums the most.  Those sentiments.  Some are very angry.  Some are being overly reasonable.  Considering I understand how to read the points someone is making without focusing on their tone, or any colorful language, I can see the points people are making for exactly what they are.  Those are the points they should be hearing, although most likely all they can see is the emotional tone of the posts, and completely miss the point because of it.  They want us to choose our words very carefully, but they think they can get away with labeling a skill as a bug, then backpedal into it just being an "exploit."

 

 

12 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

the clarification response on Reddit got downvoted into oblivion. Why would people take the clarification asked for by players and throw it back into someone’s face?

First, and this is important:  Most of us did not ask for clarification.  Most of us saw it for what it was immediately.  It was spin.  It was dishonesty.  The only proof I need to believe that is their word choice after they "clarified" what they meant.  The number of times they've done this exact same thing in the past though, labeled something for what it's not to spin it to look better for them, is the only thing I needed to believe it before the backpedal.  We didn't want clarification.  We wanted a damn apology.  A sincere one, where you say "We were wrong to phrase it that way, it was obviously intended, we just didn't want it for the event.  It works for defense objectives again, just not the event."  Not "We made a mistake, it was intended, we just wanted to fix the exploits as fast as possible which is why we did it the way we did."

Second is that word choice after the backpedal.  They clearly labeled it an exploit.  There's plenty to unpack there.  First, well it wasn't a goddamn exploit.  It was a skill being used as intended.  It wasn't even game breaking by all accounts.  It was just a thing that happened, like Mesa killing enemies and Frost putting up globes.  Warframes gonna Warframe.  Secondly, it's an accusation being casually leveled at any and all players that used it.  Those players were being exploitative.  They were doing something wrong.  People really, really don't like being falsely accused of things.  When you lie to people, then backpedal on that lie by falsely accusing them of exploits for using a skill as it was intended to be used, people like that much less.  When you do all of those things while still making zero plans to undo the damage you've done with kneejerk reactionary nerfs you get downvoted into oblivion and your players start pricing out pitchforks on Amazon.  That was the sum of the furious string of comments made after the dev's "clarification."  It was anger, and it was justified in my eyes.

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