On the change to Venari Heal

[Jarriaga]

2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

What if "DE" isn't a singular hive-minded entity, and there are different people working on different things at different times? Especially since everyone's working from home right now, this sounds like it could be a "wires crossed" thing.

Possible scenario: Venari isn't supposed to heal Oplinks, the bugfixer who fixed this issue didn't design Khora, wasn't aware of the normal interaction with Defense pods and flicked the switch for all defense point targets to fix the issue. Ideally, this is the part  where Skyers gets on the line with the bugfix team and says, "hey, not healing Oplinks is fine, but Venari's supposed to heal Cryopods."

Then you have:

1) People who don't know the game somehow assigned to "fixing" it, resulting in this debugger (Or team) changing an intended behavior as per Khora's tooltips thinking it was a bug.

2) People in charge of reviewing the debugger's work not knowing the game, because they don't know the debugger changed an intended behavior as per Khora's tooltips.

3) People in charge of patch notes not knowing the game and presenting to the world that they "fixed a bug" described as intended behavior as per Khora's tooltips.

Keywords here: Intended behavior as per Khora's tooltips, yet apparently, no one in the pipeline related to changing how the game functions was aware of this.

At which step of a ladder of several people not knowing their own game and being oblivious to the fact even Khora's tooltips say it was intended do you get to call them out for having no knowledge of their own game or a cohesive vision?

Edited April 1, 2020 by Jarriaga

[TheGrimCorsair]

And good riddance, no frame should be able to heal static defense targets.

[LascarCapable]

Removed PSA tag : this can only be used by admins.

[Jarriaga]

18 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Operation: Scarlet Spear: Titania Prime 27.3.6

• Fixed Venari’s Healing aura affecting the Oplink.
  • The Oplink is intended to not be affected by Abilities.

 

18 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Operation: Scarlet Spear: Titania Prime 27.3.6

• Fixed Venari’s Healing aura affecting Defense Targets.

 

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

That is definitely not true. One of the first things I did after reading this thread was to try it on human operatives, and it still works there, both the marking and the actual healing. I haven't tried sortie or arbitration defense, but rescue and syndicate operatives, which work identically, are healed by Venari's aura as always, so I'd imagine all human operatives are unchanged. I'd put plat on the fact that she'll still heal beast companions as well.

Edit: Just checked, and yes, Kavor defectors and beast pets are also healed.

I'm not aware of them having been able to do so, but I joined only a couple of years ago and Trinity in particular had had many, many limitations added to her power set before I got here. To my knowledge, the only things that could ever heal excavators were Vazarin and Venari.

Edit: And I believe only Trinity heals Sentinels, correct?

So they did actually fix it since it is now inline with every other single WF ability (that I can think of). It wasnt that long ago since they fixed invisible arrow on Ivara to not work on static defense objectives, while still keeping its usefulness on moving objectives.

It is possible that Garuda can also heal sentinels, not 100% sure though since I rarely use the scrap buckets on any frame.

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Irfir:

So Healing OPLinks with Khora is not intented while making OPLinks invulnerable with Limbo is?

That is BS!

vaz dash doesnt work too. healing them with aura is a joke and not worth it. santi magistar still works i guess?

event fails hard... we done 17 waves with 2 frosts and then i quit after 3k points and no bonus so far. its very boring and very risky (host migrations or hosts with 1k+ ping). so i dont bother to play for 5k points in one session. i better skip it.

 

[Totterson]

Still waiting on an official statement from DE on this. It's honestly tiresome how long this kind of thing has gone on.

 

It's happened with loot mechanics on a number of frames, it's happened with Cloud Walker on Wukong, it's happened with Radial Blind, who's gonna be next after this?

 

What I want to see is them putting major frame or weapon changes on a separate subsection of the patchnotes with their workshop-styled format. State the change, state the previous function, and give a why for the purpose of the change. This way as they're filling it out they can sometimes realize how bad some of the changes are before they make it to the live version of the game.

 

They make us fill out sheets for feedback and bug reporting. It's only fair.

[ShaperOfForm]

I can tell some people here decided to react without all the facts or reading comprehension. Just grab the pitchforks and assume the worst.  

The tool tip says marked defense targets are healed. So if you can press 3 and it gets the heal icon above its head- it will be healed. 

What they fixed was non-moving targets cannot be healed. Meaning cryopods. Which self heal anyways and no other warframe ability heals them. 

Go into a defense arbitration and you can heal the defense target all you want. Otherwise their health won't regenerate. 

The heal now works as intended. The tool tip is still 100% true. Marked targets are healed.   

Note: I just finished testing this to confirm. I am not making any assumptions.  

Someone close this thread.  

Edited April 1, 2020 by ShaperOfForm

[(PSN)Viveeeh]

1 hour ago, IncuBB said:

Also it would be nice to put some brains into this damn cat.
Because sometimes she just stuck somewhere on the map like one of those NPC in Bethesda games.
I don't know... Add teleportation back to Khora, when Venari is out of certain range from her?

If you give Venari a command and she's out of range, she'll teleport to the target.

This doesn't change she's dumb though, bigger and stronger than basic kavats, with the same AI in her virtual skull.

15 minutes ago, ShaperOfForm said:

I can tell some people here decided to react without all the facts or reading comprehension. Just grab the pitchforks and assume the worst.

English isn't my native language, so pardon if I'm wrong, but as I understand, to this point Khora's ability screen mentioned a tip, which worked in the game as described. Maybe neither the tip description, nor Veanri's function to heal defence objectives was the way how the Dev's originally intended, but don't tell people their reading comprehension is lacking, because it isn't. 

Btw as someone who's playing with Khora a lot, I'm a bit embarrassed now, because I didn't know Venari can do that - I healed operatives, but I suppose just assumed inanimate targets cannot be healed, and haven't even tried. So I don't particularly mind what happened, but I very much mind how the "fix" was communicated. And I don't know what disturbs me more: the possibility that they wanted to sell a nerf as a bug fix, or that they didn't know what was intended or not, and what is communicated by their own game.

Edited April 1, 2020 by (PS4)Viveeeh

[nslay]

13 minutes ago, ShaperOfForm said:

The heal now works as intended. The tool tip is still 100% true. Marked targets are healed.   

 

 16 hours ago, Slaytanic93 said:

16 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Have you tried marking the objective to heal it after the changes, because I think the change only applies to the passive aura that is triggered when Venari or Khora dips below 90% HP.

I have. It doesn't work.

 

[SneakyErvin]

41 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

vaz dash doesnt work too. healing them with aura is a joke and not worth it. santi magistar still works i guess?

event fails hard... we done 17 waves with 2 frosts and then i quit after 3k points and no bonus so far. its very boring and very risky (host migrations or hosts with 1k+ ping). so i dont bother to play for 5k points in one session. i better skip it.

 

Just do it solo with Frost, it is quicker than in a group if you have the right elements for the job since it scales to the number of players. In a 4 man you may end up with 3 people with the wrong elements, dragging the fights out and gimping the time since you are still the only one dealing proper damage but needing more shots to down it.

[ShaperOfForm]

4 minutes ago, nslay said:

 

 

Nslay, I have no idea what you are trying to say. You didn't bother typing anything. 

I am assuming you are pointing to me saying it works and others saying it doesn't. 

I personally tested it and confirmed it works. Anyone that says it doesn't, must not know what they are doing. 

Being marked means having the heal icon above the NPC. Point at an NPC and press 3 when using Khora and the heal stance is active. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

-Quoted post removed for violating forum rules-

But the change is a fix, since stationary targets have never been intended to be able to be healed with frame abilities. There are other ways intended for them to have their life prolonged, like DR buffs or shielding them with domes/catas. They've fixed several frames that have not interacted as intended with static defense objects over time. Those frames still work on non-static objectives.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Letter13
Quoted post removed

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But the change is a fix, since stationary targets have never been intended to be able to be healed with frame abilities.

 

30 minutes ago, ShaperOfForm said:

The tool tip says marked defense targets are healed. So if you can press 3 and it gets the heal icon above its head- it will be healed. 

What they fixed was non-moving targets cannot be healed. Meaning cryopods.

The tooltip says defense targets. It doesn't separate moving targets from stationary targets, and true to the wording that didn't discriminate, it worked on all.

If you need to add additional words in order to justify a "fix" that contradicts wording that did exactly what it said it did, you are grasping at straws.

In other words:

- "Works on yellow paint".

- "Yeah, but it was never meant to work on yellow shade 23".

Edited April 1, 2020 by Jarriaga

[ShaperOfForm]

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But the change is a fix, since stationary targets have never been intended to be able to be healed with frame abilities. There are other ways intended for them to have their life prolonged, like DR buffs or shielding them with domes/catas. They've fixed several frames that have not interacted as intended with static defense objects over time. Those frames still work on non-static objectives.

A valiant effort mate. You'll be accused of being a white knight for just being rational and logical. This person you are trying to reason with is delusional and a strong sense of entitlement. They want to throw a tantrum and make sure everyone knows they are upset when they leave. Not worth the effort. 

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by ShaperOfForm

[ShaperOfForm]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

The tooltip says defense targets. It doesn't separate moving targets from stationary targets, and true to the wording that didn't discriminate, it worked on all.

If you need to add additional words in order to justify a "fix" that contradicts wording that did exactly what it said it did, you are grasping at straws.

In other words:

- "Works on yellow paint".

- "Yeah, but it was never meant to work on yellow shade 23".

The tooltip literally says "Venari's Heal posture can heal Defense objectives when marked!"

That is still what the ability does. If the target is marked they are healed. You can't mark cryopods. No warframe could heal cryopods. 

They are being consistent. 

Why are people so upset about not being able to heal cryopods. They self heal. There is no reason to cast heal on a cryopod.  

Moving defense targets don't self heal. Those are the things you would want to heal. And guess what? You can! 

[nslay]

18 minutes ago, ShaperOfForm said:

Nslay, I have no idea what you are trying to say. You didn't bother typing anything. 

I am assuming you are pointing to me saying it works and others saying it doesn't. 

I personally tested it and confirmed it works. Anyone that says it doesn't, must not know what they are doing. 

Being marked means having the heal icon above the NPC. Point at an NPC and press 3 when using Khora and the heal stance is active. 

 

Why say what was already said on page 1 of this thread. That poster tested it and claims it doesn't work.

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

 

The tooltip says defense targets. It doesn't separate moving targets from stationary targets, and true to the wording that didn't discriminate, it worked on all.

If you need to add additional words in order to justify a "fix" that contradicts wording that did exactly what it said it did, you are grasping at straws.

In other words:

- "Works on yellow paint".

- "Yeah, but it was never meant to work on yellow shade 23".

The game has seperated those things for a long time, it was just overlooked with Venari.

[ShaperOfForm]

1 minute ago, nslay said:

Why say what was already said on page 1 of this thread. That poster tested it and claims it doesn't work.

Its cool mate. You don't have to believe me or anyone else. Just try it for yourself, but make sure you do it properly. 

The target has to be marked with the heal icon. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, nslay said:

Why say what was already said on page 1 of this thread. That poster tested it and claims it doesn't work.

But he didnt test it. If he did he'd know that it does work on the objectives that everything else is intended to work on.

He complains about not being able to heal stationary targets. When the #*!% have we ever had a need to heal stationary targets? Those are star chart defense objects.

[Jarriaga]

21 minutes ago, ShaperOfForm said:

The tooltip literally says "Venari's Heal posture can heal Defense objectives when marked!"

That is still what the ability does. If the target is marked they are healed. You can't mark cryopods. No warframe could heal cryopods. 

You can't mark cryopods you say? Did you ever play Khora before the update? Cryopods, mobile defense terminals, and excavators were marked with the shuriken icon when targeted for healing. Same for the Oplink.

If you didn't know that, then why are you presenting factually incorrect information as justification for DE's actions? 

21 minutes ago, ShaperOfForm said:

Why are people so upset about not being able to heal cryopods. They self heal. There is no reason to cast heal on a cryopod

 

As others have pointed out, if they had called it a change then it would be treated as nothing more than a simple nerf. The problem here is them calling it a "fix", as in, an error, a bug, an unintended behavior, which is a blatant lie at worst or terrible team communication with debuggers that don't play the game at best, as exemplified by the tooltip doing exactly what it said it did, marking targets (Stationary or not) with a shuriken icon and healing them-

Edited April 1, 2020 by Jarriaga

[Man_In_Suitcase]

Ugh back here again I see. Let's review now what DE has nerf'd that I can recall which wasn't intended shall we?

-Syndicate weapon mods proccing their AoEs whilest running an exalted ablilty being nerf'd. Reason why? "Wasn't intended" Despite it being originally intended for sometime. (I can't find the update patch notes thread in regard to that statment, but remember reading it...)

-Chroma's Elemental Ward and Vex Armor nerf. So Chroma having wrong multiplier values to these abilities was just fine for years until Eidolons came about...Funny how this nearly perfectly mirrors the reason Khora's Venari nerf, it couldn't just be be a coincidence, right?

Look, I don't even play Khora but this fix is down right disingenuous. Warframe shouldn't be called "Ninjas Play For Free" but "Warframe, Working As Intended, Till It's Not."

[CopperBezel]

2 hours ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

That kind of statement is not true even on Fighting games, and they're more concerned about balance than DE will ever be.

The phrasing was a bit ambiguous I suppose. I didn't mean there aren't better and worse frames, I meant that there aren't better frames than Khora, specifically. All of these references to her as a "niche" frame and complaints that she's useless now are just bizarre to me. Hard CC over huge areas, millions of damage, and apparently she's ruined because she can't heal excavators anymore, which I did always assume was probably a bug. 

If she's a niche frame, it's a lot of niches, from ESO to Index to Defection....

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Disagree. Her healing was not usefull enough to be considered for player heals, she absolutely cannot compete in this field with any other support Frame.

The base rate is higher than Oberon's. It doesn't come with the other dressings, but if it doesn't seem like enough healing, that's wholly due to Venari's glitchy behavior, which is as much an issue for inanimate defense targets as it is for warframes, so....

Edit: Which is to say, you aren't wrong that her healing is more useful on operatives than on players, but that's because it's healing, and players have plenty of fast and convenient ways to do that without involving a support frame.

Edited April 1, 2020 by CopperBezel

[ShaperOfForm]

1 minute ago, Sovyul said:

i don't even play the game anymore, i'm just watching DE burn for their sins

Boy are they suffering. Thanks for hanging out in a forum for a game you don't play. 

[nslay]

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But he didnt test it. If he did he'd know that it does work on the objectives that everything else is intended to work on.

He complains about not being able to heal stationary targets. When the #*!% have we ever had a need to heal stationary targets? Those are star chart defense objects.

9 minutes ago, ShaperOfForm said:

Its cool mate. You don't have to believe me or anyone else. Just try it for yourself, but make sure you do it properly. 

The target has to be marked with the heal icon. 

I will test it tonight. I remember only two examples of stationary targets that do not heal. The Supply Vault on PoE (hack/unlock the supply vault bounty phase) and the Hacked Coil Drive on Fortuna (hijack and hack the Coil Drive bounty phase).

Personally, I use Revenant for these open world bounties. For these defense bounties, I just Enthrall enemies and let them aggro each other while I just wait for the timer to expire!