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ImNephix

Revert the Wise Razor Stance

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14 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

Uh, tons of stances already had that. Including things like strafe right and left on some stances introduced with the Plains of Eidolon. The pauses in combos also being of alterable length with attack speed wasn't a good look either.

 

While a lot of stances have attacks on combos they probably shouldn't be on, dumping pauses, random bloc inputs, and random directional inputs and the occasional mid combo charge for what we have now is an improvement control wise.

u could press forward and do a combo without holding forward, lets see u change direction without a mouse while still going "forward"

if im moving in a direction and facing also in that direction (not the camera, the warframe) it should count as moving forward

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7 hours ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

u could press forward and do a combo without holding forward, lets see u change direction without a mouse while still going "forward"

if im moving in a direction and facing also in that direction (not the camera, the warframe) it should count as moving forward

Please don't start a fight ūüôā

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10 minutes ago, ImNephix said:

Please don't start a fight ūüôā

what fight? i was agreeing with them lol, u used to tap forward, now ur forced to hold it, with a controller that means u cant aim ur melee u can only melee forward to even use broken bull now, its worse now the it was

and yes u can set it to melee with the trigger but u cant use a mouse and keyboard onn ps4, becuase all of the menus only accept inputs from ur controller ven tho fortnight and warthunder let u remap ur controlls on a keyboard and mouse lol 

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

what fight? i was agreeing with them lol, u used to tap forward, now ur forced to hold it, with a controller that means u cant aim ur melee u can only melee forward to even use broken bull now, its worse now the it was

and yes u can set it to melee with the trigger but u cant use a mouse and keyboard onn ps4, becuase all of the menus only accept inputs from ur controller ven tho fortnight and warthunder let u remap ur controlls on a keyboard and mouse lol 

Sorry, I just reacted to your tone in the quoted response ^^

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8 hours ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

u could press forward and do a combo without holding forward, lets see u change direction without a mouse while still going "forward"

if im moving in a direction and facing also in that direction (not the camera, the warframe) it should count as moving forward

You only have to hold forward long enough to being taking a step forward, you don't have to hold it during the attack. That said, the (currently incomplete) intention of forward combos is to be combos you'd want to do while moving, and neutral combos ones you'd want to stop and do. This is even reflected in the damage bonuses, for most stances forward attacks deal 100% and neutral deal 300%. But the inputs not to perform Wise Razror's old pause combo if you wanted is Forward+Melee, Forward+Melee, Neutral+Melee x4. The difference now is you can completely aim every hit, stop at any time, or transition entirely into another combo. Based on how they did other stances, the first neutral melee should have been block+melee though, it is fairly awkward as an opening hit.

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6 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

You only have to hold forward long enough to being taking a step forward, you don't have to hold it during the attack. That said, the (currently incomplete) intention of forward combos is to be combos you'd want to do while moving, and neutral combos ones you'd want to stop and do. This is even reflected in the damage bonuses, for most stances forward attacks deal 100% and neutral deal 300%. But the inputs not to perform Wise Razror's old pause combo if you wanted is Forward+Melee, Forward+Melee, Neutral+Melee x4. The difference now is you can completely aim every hit, stop at any time, or transition entirely into another combo. Based on how they did other stances, the first neutral melee should have been block+melee though, it is fairly awkward as an opening hit.

u do for broken bull the spin attack, u have to be going forward each time u press the melee button, or u do a compleatly diffrent attack, and its like this for most combos now 

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Just now, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

u do for broken bull the spin attack, u have to be going forward each time u press the melee button, or u do a compleatly diffrent attack, and its like this for most combos now 

You can let go of forward during the attack animation though. You only need to be holding forward when you hit the key/button.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

You can let go of forward during the attack animation though. You only need to be holding forward when you hit the key/button.

Each spin of broken bull is a forward E

In PS4 that translates to forward circle

Say I want. To attack a guy behind me, I literly can't just change direction and keep doing broken bull

If the camera is north, my warframe is facing south, moving in the warframes forward, not the cameras, will never trigger broken bull

How hard is it to understand that I can't even press forward because in this case forward would mean attacking 180 degrees from the direction of the target?

In the old system I melee then pause, then melee into broken bull, then steer it with movement as I pressed the melee button..

I want the direction of the warframe to be the forward direction so I can do forward combos independent of the camera, hell I'd like some kind of targeting for gunblades as well for this reason (that is a toggle in the options and not forced)

If ur going to tell me to just turn the cammera, I'd like u to then hold a controller first Mr PC Man

Edited by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

Each spin of broken bull is a forward E

In PS4 that translates to forward circle

Say I want. To attack a guy behind me, I literly can't just change direction and keep doing broken bull

If the camera is north, my warframe is facing south, moving in the warframes forward, not the cameras, will never trigger broken bull

How hard is it to understand that I can't even press forward because in this case forward would mean attacking 180 degrees from the direction of the target?

In the old system I melee then pause, then melee into broken bull, then steer it with movement as I pressed the melee button..

I want the direction of the warframe to be the forward direction so I can do forward combos independent of the camera, hell I'd like some kind of targeting for gunblades as well for this reason (that is a toggle in the options and not forced)

If ur going to tell me to just turn the cammera, I'd like u to then hold a controller first Mr PC Man

I play claw grip when I use controllers, I have since Megaman X dropped for the SNES. I could be hitting circle with my right index finger, with my second finder on the trigger buttons and thumb on the right stick. If I didn't just rebind all of my attack keys to triggers at least.

Also, unless it's just missing from PS4 options, there is a melee auto lock on toggle.

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10 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

I play claw grip when I use controllers, I have since Megaman X dropped for the SNES. I could be hitting circle with my right index finger, with my second finder on the trigger buttons and thumb on the right stick. If I didn't just rebind all of my attack keys to triggers at least.

Also, unless it's just missing from PS4 options, there is a melee auto lock on toggle.

there is but it effectively does nothing if ur holding forward

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On 2020-04-11 at 3:47 AM, Andele3025 said:

it was tied to multiple factors including fps, attack speed and "lag"/games tick calculation variance

My attack rate was literally never effected by anything but mods. I did not ever experience failures to connect my blows even with terrible latency, unless I completely disconnected altogether, and not damaging things because you DC'ed happens under the new system too. 

On 2020-04-11 at 3:47 AM, Andele3025 said:

There was no skill in pause and hold combos, just going into sim, getting the right attack speed mods (or if you didnt wanna bother with that, set up a macro) and then mashing lmb

There absolutely was method and technique to it; and if you wanted to do the cool moves you had to be willing to do more than just tap your finger repeatedly; and to be patient enough to get your timing right. Even with attack speed boosts like Berserker in effect, mindlessly hitting the E key without doing anything else would cause you to fail to perform the combo. The old system punished mashers, instead of coddling them. I miss that. The slide-attack spammers have gotten worse under 3.0.

Even the parts of Combos that did involve rapidly hitting E made sense under the old system, because they were usually a part of the combo that was a rapid series of blows. Under 3.0, hitting W+E in during a Combo is more likely to cause a flurry of blows like the rapid tapping used to; rather than the single more focused strike you'd expect. There is complete disconnect from the key inputs and the results on the screen, destroying any illusion of actually holding anything; in the same way that the asinine removal of Sword Alone (which, need I remind you, DE had to be told REPEATEDLY by players that melee felt intangible without it in-game) made it seem like we were twitching around fog and sparks.

On 2020-04-11 at 3:47 AM, Andele3025 said:

Why would the destraza need any puncture mods, its not a slash nor 85%+ physical weighted weapon thus elementals are better.

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO TELL YOU THAT IT WAS FUN TO CUSTOMIZE WEAPONS AND THAT I PREFERRED TO NOT  USE SOME BORING "META" WHEN I COULD FIND MY OWN BUILDS THAT WERE ALSO GOOD WITHOUT BEING INSTA-KILLERS BECAUSE THAT IS BORING. REAL RAPIERS WERE USED AS STABBING WEAPONS, I ENJOYED MAKING IT A SPECIALIZED CRIT/PUNCTURE TOOL AND IT MADE THEMATIC SENSE.

But when everything does 2k for effectively no effort, there's no point in customizing any of my weapons, and it's immensely infuriating. When the only effective difference between anything is that they have measly variations of 2%-5% critical hit/status chance, and everything has 

Much the same way that every Stance mod (as DE literally confessed in the launch notes of The Old Blood) "is based on a common framework of motions" now; so none of them look particularly distinct and any motivation or excitement I had about acquiring a rare Stance is dead. Why put in the effort, when they all make me do the same chopped-apart bastardization of old animation giblets?! 

Vulpine Mask mainly slashes now, for God's sake. A rapier is literally only sharpened at the tip and about three inches down the blade. It shouldn't be making cuts with its edge down by the handle. Stances are vomit now, and once I finish letting loose the floodgate of anger that has reopened, I am returning to the original thread topic and showing how they just lazily rearranged the order of motions; while turning the remaining animations flailing and without buildup that every single Stance now looks like spastic flailing without rhythym and with the same set of twirls and clipped momentum/leaps. Wise Razor had a flow, and like everything else out of five-plus years of melee that worked, DE took a good, long look, and decided "OH, THAT'S WORKING MUCH TOO WELL, DESTROY IT".

On 2020-04-11 at 3:47 AM, Andele3025 said:

L2P again, if you want to use melee, you should be in melee mode, quick attack mode is for the gun people.

I. AM. LITERALLY. HOLDING. F KEY. TO LOCK IN. THE SAME AS UNDER THE OLD SWORD ALONE CONTROLS, WHICH IS HOW IT WORKS AGAIN, SINCE THEY SO KINDLY RESTORED WHAT THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE REMOVED FROM MELEE IN THE FIRST PLACE LAST HALLOWEEN. THE GAME DOESN'T CARE I'M IN SWORD ALONE, AND IT STILL TAKES ME OUT. THIS GLITCH BEGAN WITH BURIED DEBTS IN 2019, AND IT'S STILL HAPPENING.

"You're not getting pulled out of Exalted mode when you use Mouse2, and you're just lying about the bug." TELL THAT TO MY TALONS THAT ARE OUT OF VALK'S FINGERS BUT NOT CUTTING ANYTHING, BUDDY. 

Spoiler

Zbjo53a.jpg

See my energy still being drained? See how my beloved, once-Wolverine-style claw rampage is ending mid-swing, all because the idiot game thinks that I want to enter ironsights with my boring old guns at this particular moment? Do you bloody fathom how enraging this is when I wanted to maul someone to death? Let me do the Delusion Combo again without this crap happening, DE. RESTORE THE EXALTED MELEE MODE OVERRIDE.

On 2020-04-11 at 3:47 AM, Andele3025 said:

a easy instant 600%+ crit chance vs the now full build and stat stick helios decon 350~390% crit at best.pre arcanes or crit buff abilities (with a optimized build)

I literally never used the Acolyte mod/slide-spam memelord builds in the first place, because they were a boring, pre-prescribed meta. I really don't know how else to reiterate this to you or the developers: It was fun to actually put in EFFORT to make my weapons strong. Customization and controls should remain fully in the players' hands, and right now Warframe has mangled both of those elements of melee combat. I wanted Daggers, like all the weapon categories, to be viable, yes; not for Fang Prime to do as much damage as Galatine used to, and Galatine to develop such stupidly increased base damage that customizing Galatine is pointless and redundant, the same as 3.0 has turned the other "heavy" weapons. 

All that time spent personalizing Galatine Prime, Gram Prime, Paracesis, Wolf Sledge, Fragor Prime, and Tatsu; and for my efforts I was rewarded with DE making my dozens of forma meaningless by rendering modding redundant on the overwhelming majority of melee weapons, particularly the two-handers.

And finally, more than anything else: I a mad with DE and despise Melee 3.0 because I have every right to be angry. I used the control scheme that actually worked and had VFX that didn't make your eyes bleed quite happily for five years, ever since I joined in 2014. I was invested in 2.0 quite greatly, and it didn't let me down the way most aspects of  3.0 have and continue to fail. It felt better and looked better, it will always feel better and look better, I am likely never going to "AdJuSt" to the awkward, nuclear-bomb-bright-paricle-effect-spamming trash we've been given in its place, and my once-favorite method of combat has become insufferably frustrating and little fun to use ever since February 2019. 

And during that time, during both phases so far, DE made their feedback megathreads and asked the players what they thought, and when reasonable criticism of the very worst aspects that they persist in continuing to shoehorn in was given to them; DE IGNORED THE THREADS ANWAY.

But what do I know? Clearly I wasn't that big of a melee main prior to the nightmare of the past two years, and ObViOuSlY I never used enough melee weapons of different types in the first place to know which control scheme felt better and whether or not the new elements are a painful seizure-inducer.

That would be ridiculous, to claim that I know what I'm talking about. ToTaLlY. 

Spoiler

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How

Spoiler

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could I

Spoiler

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have experience and preferrence

Spoiler

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regarding melee weapons and their associated controls

Spoiler

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that would lead me to regard this "brave new direction"

Spoiler

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as a frustrating mess?

What EVER could be cause for me to be pissed off, let down, and all-around enraged, and not in the way that Valkyr thematically centers around?!

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Posted (edited)

Now back on topic: Wise Razor itself.

I anticipated bad changes were coming when I read more into Old Blood pre-release, and I pre-emptively saved the GIF files of the "outdated" Stances before the Wiki unwisely removed them; a move I consider suspiciously similar to helping dispose of crime evidence, as it prevents cross-comparison to prove what we've lost.

I'm glad I thought ahead to do that, because the OP is absolutely correct that Wise Razor has been mangled, just as badly as the Heavy Blade Stances.

 

"uPgRaDeD" and "SmOoThEr" Wise Razor: An Unfortunate Primer

Cutting Thrice combo under 2.0:

T7t32ky.gif

A simple, consistent three-slice swing; with the spin clearly deriving from the momentum of the prior slashes. Nothing comes out of nowhere with random spasms and zero flow to the motion. This is clean and clear, and it looks stylish.

 

Cutting Thrice combo under 3.0:

vMF12sv.gif

Isn't even the same combo, just a mangled and glued-together piecemeal of all the prior combos shoved under the stolen name. It inexplicably starts with the twirl that belongs in the middle of Threshing Grain; and instead of ending in the subtle, twirling third attack of the real Cutting Thrice combo, it akwardly truncates into the diagonal chops that should be in the beginning and end of Threshing Grain. The motions are disconnected from each other in style and rhythym, and it looks ugly and forced. This should be entitled "Junkie Attempts Cutting Six Ways from Sunday without Any Pattern".

I stand by my accusations that 3.0 didn't do a single blasted thing to improve Stances or combos, IT MADE THEM WORSE. And we're not done, folks!

 

Let's have a look at combo 2!

 

Threshing Grain under 2.0:

XM31ZTN.gif

A beautiful, rhythmic motion that clearly is driven by its own momentum from previous swings. The chopping at beginning and end is controlled and precise, and the spinning flip-slash has a clear build-up instead of immediately and inexplicably beginning without any wind-up. This is elegant, this is cool.

 

Threshing Grain under 3.0:

SuXaykA.gif

I - what?! This is literally just Cutting Thrice shoved under a new name, with the Stance now both out of order and still not having anything truly new added. New things, like, say, the thematically-appropriate fourth Combo we actually wanted Wise Razor to be expanded with; instead of @#!$ing up what was already amazing about it.

Ay, caramba.

 

Well, let's see if third time's the charm (spoiler alert, it isn't).

 

Calling Thunder under 2.0:

4qZVLZn.gif

A badass, beautiful, lunging onslaught that lives up to its name and concludes in an appropriately dramatic downward chop; and with each motion still having a clear rhythym and transition between each other. This does, indeed, make one feel like an angry god bringing down his wrath on the hubristic. Or rather, it used to.

 

Calling Thunder under 3.0:

UyvAQpg.gif

A couple of wildly-swinging, straight-sword-like chops, the slam anti-climactically jammed into the middle of the combo in an unfitting way; and finally another pair of imprecise horizontal chops. Yay. Totally just fine and dandy, DE. 

Because, you know, it's not like anyone enjoyed having a clear build-up of the Mouse2 combo into a concluding, lethal blow. Just randomly slapping frames of half-done work together in place of a good-looking and great-feeling Combo apparently is what "smoother, more dynamic moves!" means.

 

 

Edited by Maxim_M_Payne
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Posted (edited)
On 2020-04-19 at 12:19 AM, Maxim_M_Payne said:

My pause and hold rate was literally never effected by anything but mods. I did not ever experience failures to connect my blows even with terrible latency, unless I completely disconnected altogether, and not damaging things because you DC'ed happens under the new system too. 

Except it was and the massive outcry at heavy attacks being auto triggered is just the cherry ontop of the proof (that can be seen in everything from old videos describing cleaving whirlwind.

Quote

There absolutely was method and technique to it; and if you wanted to do the cool moves you had to be willing to do more than just tap your finger repeatedly; and to be patient enough to get your timing right. Even with attack speed boosts like Berserker in effect, mindlessly hitting the E key without doing anything else would cause you to fail to perform the combo. The old system punished mashers, instead of coddling them. I miss that. The slide-attack spammers have gotten worse under 3.0.

Except there wasnt because only block combos had any skill to them due to block being a animation cancel which can still be kinda done, only due to the increased combo continue timer there is no longer any benefit to it (and most good block attacks got gutted.

And slide attacking is the only thing left with any niche or skill because its the only attack animation that kept partial keyboard steer.

Quote

Even the parts of Combos that did involve rapidly hitting E made sense under the old system, because they were usually a part of the combo that was a rapid series of blows.

Objectively not true, it was just a random choice of pause or hold in the place where the node tree branched off into the different attack branches/options.

Quote

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO TELL YOU THAT IT WAS FUN TO CUSTOMIZE WEAPONS AND THAT I PREFERRED TO NOT  USE SOME BORING "META" WHEN I COULD FIND MY OWN BUILDS THAT WERE ALSO GOOD WITHOUT BEING INSTA-KILLERS BECAUSE THAT IS BORING. REAL RAPIERS WERE USED AS STABBING WEAPONS, I ENJOYED MAKING IT A SPECIALIZED CRIT/PUNCTURE TOOL AND IT MADE THEMATIC SENSE.

But when everything does 2k for effectively no effort, there's no point in customizing any of my weapons, and it's immensely infuriating. When the only effective difference between anything is that they have measly variations of 2%-5% critical hit/status chance, and everything has 

 

So you never used a weapon with combo counter above 2x? Again thats a l2p issue of you not knowing how to use weapons before and now that the floor has been raised to what the good average was (slightly lower) with the ceiling massively nerfed almost all melee is by raw stats viable, even if the stances are gutted with animation locks.

Quote

Vulpine Mask mainly slashes now, for God's sake. A rapier is literally only sharpened at the tip and about three inches down the blade. It shouldn't be making cuts with its edge down by the handle. Stances are vomit now, and once I finish letting loose the floodgate of anger that has reopened, I am returning to the original thread topic and showing how they just lazily rearranged the order of motions; while turning the remaining animations flailing and without buildup that every single Stance now looks like spastic flailing without rhythym and with the same set of twirls and clipped momentum/leaps. Wise Razor had a flow, and like everything else out of five-plus years of melee that worked, DE took a good, long look, and decided "OH, THAT'S WORKING MUCH TOO WELL, DESTROY IT".

I. AM. LITERALLY. HOLDING. *#$!KING F KEY. TO LOCK IN. THE SAME AS UNDER THE OLD SWORD ALONE CONTROLS, WHICH IS HOW IT WORKS AGAIN, SINCE THEY SO KINDLY RESTORED WHAT THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE REMOVED FROM MELEE IN THE FIRST PLACE LAST HALLOWEEN. THE GAME DOESN'T CARE I'M IN SWORD ALONE, AND IT STILL TAKES ME OUT. THIS GLITCH BEGAN WITH BURIED DEBTS IN 2019, AND IT'S STILL HAPPENING.

1. Rapiers were sharpened even down to the part that enters the hilt (except on basket hilts) and could cut, but thats not relevant.
2. Yes, stances are trash, but its because of what MECHANICAL PROPERTIES were ripped up or messed up and then the animations glued together with animation locks, not how they look. What animation is run by the skeleton has no intrinsic ties with what the game actually does.
3. The only bug that remains with melee mode is that you are dropped in your first equipped weapons mode when your character is reset/fall out of bounds. Even transference-death resetting to first equipped weapons mode got fixed in one of the lich updates.

Quote

"You're not getting pulled out of Exalted mode when you use Mouse2, and you're just lying about the bug." TELL THAT TO MY TALONS THAT ARE OUT OF VALK'S FINGERS BUT NOT CUTTING ANYTHING, BUDDY.

L2P and press LMB then. If they are out and you were in melee mode before you entered, they wont ever leave. Or just weapon swap again to melee (no animation will run, but the sound que is notable).

Quote

 RESTORE THE EXALTED MELEE MODE OVERRIDE.

ITS THERE, STOP BEING A GUNQUICKHOT AND BE IN MELEE MODE IF YOU WANT TO MELEE.

Quote

 literally never used the Acolyte mod/slide-spam memelord builds in the first place, because they were a boring, pre-prescribed meta. I really don't know how else to reiterate this to you or the developers: It was fun to actually put in EFFORT to make my weapons strong. Customization and controls should remain fully in the players' hands, and right now Warframe has mangled both of those elements of melee combat. I wanted Daggers, like all the weapon categories, to be viable, yes; not for Fang Prime to do as much damage as Galatine used to, and Galatine to develop such stupidly increased base damage that customizing Galatine is pointless and redundant, the same as 3.0 has turned the other "heavy" weapons. All that time spent personalizing Galatine Prime, Gram Prime, Paracesis, Wolf Sledge, Fragor Prime, and Tatsu; and for my efforts I was rewarded with DE making my dozens of forma meaningless by rendering modding redundant on the overwhelming majority of melee weapons, particularly the two-handers.And finally, more than anything else: I a mad with DE and despise Melee 3.0 because I have every right to be angry. I used the control scheme that actually worked and had VFX that didn't make your eyes bleed quite happily for five years, ever since I joined in 2014. I was invested in 2.0 quite greatly, and it didn't let me down the way most aspects of  3.0 have and continue to fail. It felt better and looked better, it will always feel better and look better, I am likely never going to "AdJuSt" to the awkward, nuclear-bomb-bright-paricle-effect-spamming trash we've been given in its place, and my once-favorite method of combat has become insufferably frustrating and little fun to use ever since February 2019. And during that time, during both phases so far, DE made their feedback megathreads and asked the players what they thought, and when reasonable criticism of the very worst aspects that they persist in continuing to shoehorn in was given to them; DE IGNORED THE THREAD

No you dont, L2P, you aint complaining about anything thats actually broken like the removal of sprint influencing dash distance, forward combos animation locks resulting in static combos moving you forward faster, removal of partial steer from almost all attacks that dont have free movement, removal of a lot of free movement on attacks, removal of movement slowdown on some attacks that now got animation locks (or worse, can go at nonsense speed), animation trims that also cut the attacks velocity modifiers resulting in stuff like air attacks that kill your speed and drop you down instead of maintain most of your vertical path or dashes that yeet you 40 rooms off if done down a slope/pseudo copter, etc.

Edited by Andele3025

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-04-19 at 10:01 PM, Andele3025 said:

ITS THERE, STOP BEING A GUNQUICKHOT AND BE IN MELEE MODE IF YOU WANT TO MELEE.

It. Is. Not. There. There is no override. I have repeatedly and specifically stated that I am holding F to enter the restored mechanic of Sword Alone, which is precisely the "melee mode" you keep referring to. Exalted Weapons are interrupted if I try to due a Mouse2 Stance combo, and it's been that way since Buried Debts.

Did you actually read what I posted already? Or do you simply want to keep insulting me and ignoring what I say?

On 2020-04-19 at 10:01 PM, Andele3025 said:

So you never used a weapon with combo counter above 2x? Again thats a l2p issue of you not knowing how to use weapons before and now that the floor has been raised to what the good average was (slightly lower) with the ceiling massively nerfed almost all melee is by raw stats viable, even if the stances are gutted with animation locks.

I am Sage rank and have played over 4,000 hours, despite my current heartbreak about the state of melee combat. I am not a new player, and I am by no means inexperienced. I joined in 2014. 

Yet, somehow, inexplicably, you have both insulted me again and implied I have no melee experience through a circular logic I am trying desperately to fathom; much as I struggle to understand DE believing that melee combat has changed for the better.

I thought it was pretty clear that my general point with that paragraph is, "Weapons were buffed too much, and now everything is so strong that the Modding system, which was half the fun, is redundant and pointless; and I find this intrinsically unsatisfying."

Somehow, you took that as a sign I have never touched a single melee weapon in my entire time with Warframe; despite the fact I literally included screenshots of the sheer number of melee weapons I have used and mastered over time, and I included them with the EXPRESS PURPOSE of showing that I preferred that vast variety of statistics and weapon types. A diversity that is now only visual.

When every melee weapon is statistically similar, without any real damage, critical chance, or status effect specialization; absolutely none of the weapons feel unique.

On 2020-04-19 at 10:01 PM, Andele3025 said:

Objectively not true, it was just a random choice of pause or hold in the place where the node tree branched off into the different attack branches/options.

That is literally the reason the old system gave more freedom; the reason that I will never stop despising what was foisted upon us and want the old control scheme back! That was exactly what made the old Combos feel organic and natural! I could partially perform one, and transition into the moves of another! I could conversely perform a whole Combo, and then slide into another without pause! Those pauses and holds you took such issue with were never difficult for me to perform, and they got even shorter with increasing base attack speed; to say nothing of buffs like Berserker or Warcry!

I never struggled with a single darn aspect of it as a control scheme, and I am getting sick of flippant responses that tell me I'm a liar and can't trust my own memory! I know I found it more fun, and I most assuredly used it without a single grievance for over five years! Half a decade without a hiccup, and then Old Blood managed the impressive feat of angering me even more than Operation: Buried Debts did!

I cannot find a way to adequately phrase the frustration you and the developers are provoking. I've been insulted by players like you and ignored by the developers for months; and I have run out of ways to state that IT JUST PLAIN FELT BETTER AS A CONTROL SCHEME AND DIDN'T HAVE THE ENRAGING CLUNKY-NESS OF "GLOrIOuS" 3.0's glued-in-place, neutered Frankenstein's Monsters' of Combos.

I am not going to "learn" or "adapt" to a control system that was a downgrade from the prior one since the moment of its conception. Warframe is not some side-stepping fighting game; it is a three-dimensional and unique experience that falls into multiple simultaneous genres. By reducing melee Combos to the movement-locked, formulaic, required-to-be-performed-in-full type of combos that the likes of Street Fighter or Guilty Gear contains, Warframe has lost that dynamic feeling; and melee combat comes across as an especially mediocre port of a fighting game. 

When you tell me to "LEARN TO PLAY", as I assume your dismissive acronym stands for, you don't actually mean, "Learn to play the game".

What you really mean to tell me is:

 "Your investment in the game, and experience enjoying its melee combat before a series of very bad changes drove it into the ground, are both meaningless. The developers are never wrong and don't get to be criticized, despite these being Forums with sections that are explicitly labeled Feedback. You are somehow a liar despite having spent over 4,000 hours with a vested interest in this fictional world. And clearly, both your sense of fun and personal input as part of this vast player community don't matter, because I disagree with them; even though you have posted Screenshots and GIFs plainly showing evidence of these issues."

In a thread, need I remind you, about people's dissatisfaction with the changes to Wise Razor. 

I don't fathom why you felt the need to go out of your way to argue with me in a thread that is already about disliking the melee changes; and I am utterly sick of both contrarians and Melee 3.0 itself.

Don't put words in my mouth. Don't tell me that I didn't have fun using the old controls and mechanics that I utterly preferred; and then have the audacity to tell me that I am enjoying our "ReFiNeD" and "SmOoThEr" new melee and its butchered steering, when I am emphatically NOT enjoying myself.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Maxim_M_Payne

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Posted (edited)

I've done my best to be polite, I've shown how things have been awkwardly rearranged, and I stand by my stance to revert everything.

I will never be able to have fun with melee again, not under this wreck we currently have. I've tried. I "gave it a chance", in fact, I gave it eight months; and then October 2019 arrived, and removed all the coolest moves both from the Stances and from the game, and managed the impressive feat of making 3.0 even worse than it already was.

I don't feel like a ninja, I don't feel like a brave warrior defending the Origin System, and I definitely don't feel like anything more than a generic glowing sci-fi man with a gun any more.

Developers don't listen, other players demean me for having an opinion, and none of what I used to enjoy doing is even physically possible.

Valkyr was what sold me on Warfame, alongside its melee combat, back when I first joined during Tubemen of Regor.

There's no longer any joy to using melee combat or her. Warframe is a more boring version of BIONICLE now, without all the neat swords. I've gathered a vast set, and yet every single one is now just a dust-gathering collectible without any entertainment.

I sometimes login, I adjust a few colors or rearrange pieces of armor, but there's nothing left to play with. The most vital pieces are missing or deformed; the instructions insist on the least fun method of playing with my toys, and pretend that there was never a more satisfying way; and as the icing on the cake, the other kids tell me that I should be happy that the plastic is melted, the joints are stiff, the weapons are all cast from the same predictable mold, and the company has killed its customer service.

So much for being Tenno Nuva; now we're a few TECHNIC parts jammed together haphazardly.

 

 

Edited by Maxim_M_Payne

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5 hours ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

It. Is. Not. There. There is no override. I have repeatedly and specifically stated that I am holding F to enter the restored mechanic of Sword Alone, which is precisely the "melee mode" you keep referring to. Exalted Weapons are interrupted if I try to due a Mouse2 Stance combo, and it's been that way since Buried Debts.

No its not, holding tab/weapon swap is. Again proving your entire post, except for the mechanical downsides of DE using animation locks as glue (which DOES URGENTLY NEED TO GET FIXED), is L2P issues.

5 hours ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

I cannot find a way to adequately phrase the frustration you and the developers are provoking. I've been insulted by players like you and ignored by the developers for months; and I have run out of ways to state that IT JUST PLAIN FELT BETTER AS A CONTROL SCHEME AND DIDN'T HAVE THE ENRAGING CLUNKY-NESS OF "GLOrIOuS" 3.0's glued-in-place, neutered Frankenstein's Monsters' of Combos.

 

Because the control scheme itself being individual keybinds AND not dependent on a broken keydown/keyup system is OBJECTIVELY better, its just that DE raped the mechanical properties of stances (such as replacing slowdowns, sprint dash speedup, etc for hard animation locks) while doing so for literally no reason.

5 hours ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

Don't put words in my mouth. Don't tell me that I didn't have fun using the old controls and mechanics that I utterly preferred; and then have the audacity to tell me that I am enjoying our "ReFiNeD" and "SmOoThEr" new melee and its butchered steering, when I am emphatically NOT enjoying myself.

I didnt, i just told you you had no taste and are wrong from good game design point and control scheme. Having individual keybinds and no RNG based inputs is objectively better and isnt the source of the problem of melee 3.0 as some stances like Vermilion Storm, which has no animation locks on its forward combo, prove.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

I didnt, i just told you you had no taste and are wrong from good game design point and control scheme

That is literally telling me that my feedback is pointless and I should shut up even though I'm not having fun. 

I've gotten used to that attitude, and I won't.

Edited by Maxim_M_Payne
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12 hours ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

That is literally telling me that my feedback is pointless and I should shut up even though I'm not having fun. 

I've gotten used to that attitude, and I won't.

It is useless tho because you aint addressing a issue and want to regress the keybinds into a inferior console pleb gun-play form instead of one suited for melee.
Also it doesnt matter if you wont shut up, because the hold to heavy mess has 100% proven that DE themselves now realized that the keydown/keyup detection of the engine doesnt work for tick based effects with variable modifiers.

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On 2020-04-03 at 1:02 PM, Luciole77 said:

Who are making this changes?

 

Sometinhg is wrong DE! corinth prime, and this stance....!

I agree this stance feels slow and they killed the flow of it and that it should be fixed.

But there is nothing wrong with Corinth Prime.

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Melee 3.0 needs a total rework to incorporate the range of best melees in melee 2.0 and bring back Maiming Strike’s flat CC%. Also remove all clunky and pauses of those awful new animations in melee 3.0. Let’s keep asking DE. Share the thoughts. 

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On 2020-04-03 at 9:20 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

They absolutely destroyed the flow of the stance.

Not just this, the flow of melee 2.99 is basically destroyed. That designer that came up with this idea should be fired, he made the new melee system so clunky and not Warframe. I felt that DE was trying to copy something else and failed miserably. Don’t change what already works and only add what can make it better. DE keeps destroying great designs and their mechanics and replacing them with C grade substitutes. 

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At the very least let us use other stances, Decisive Judgement is even described as being double handed so in theory it should work for a two handed Nikana. 

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