Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets

[[DE]Rebecca]

Tenno,

Earlier this week we were ‘Tip’ped off to a problem of our own creation:

Claiming a ‘fix’ for Venari + Healing + Inanimate Objects when a Tip from the community creation verifies it’s intended. How can this be? Well, you can see the history here the topic is not over:

“We made a hasty change in Hotfix 27.3.6 that removed Venari’s Heal aura from affecting Oplinks AND Defense Targets. Firstly, the terminology of calling Venari’s Defense Target healing a ‘fix’ was incorrect, so apologies there on my behalf. It’s correct to say it was a feature for Venari, considering it had its own Tip for it! The change stemmed from our desire to resolve Operation exploits as quickly as possible, and we didn't communicate this properly.

We’re doing a deeper review on abilities that heal Defense Targets that we can speak to in the coming days.
Apologies as well for the late reply on this topic. We’ll update everyone when we’ve dug deeper and have an action plan.

We have been heads down several days on discussions - and ultimately what we want is more ‘Healing’ abilities to work to allow for more strategies to emerge in various mission types. We want there to be lots of options instead of one ‘perfect’ option. The decision to not allow heals to work on these defensive targets is an old one, and it arose from Trinity's Blessing. The fact that it was a 100% heal meant that it trivialized any Defense mission. Since then we have been blocking heal on most abilities (not super consistently) without reflecting back on the original design decision.

Now that that we have reviewed it, we feel like healing these objectives can serve well as an alternative or a complement to the commonly used defensive abilities, such as Frost's Snow Globe, Gara's Mass Vitrify, Limbo's Cataclysm. 100% heals is not what we want to do, so we are instead trying to allow the effects but adjusted as to not trivialize the game modes.

Here are the next steps:

Warframe Abilities / other items that provide healing will work on Defendable Objects in 3 ways:
 

1. Fine as is
2. Needs a cap
3. Change “Burst Heal” into “Heal Over Time”
   
    

Heal Source	Normal effect	Effect on all types of static Defendable objects (Cryopods, Excavators, etc) NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions	How does this already work on the live build?
Gara - Mending Splinters	3 HP per sec for each active splinter	Fine as is.	As is
Hildryn - Haven	500 Max Shields 80% faster Shield recharge	Fine as is, will inherit the Normal effect behaviour.	On live does nothing
Trinity - Blessing	Up to 100% HP and Shield restore	Previously did nothing. Now, will Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack	On live does nothing
Equinox - Mend	25 Shields for each enemy killed Burst heal based on how much damage was dealt Notes: Since the heal amount is based on player damage, the numbers are astronomical which will lead to imbalances outside our goal here.	Previously did nothing. Now, Allow the Shields component to work and heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack.	Does not affect (health nor shield)
Vazarin - Protective Dash	5 seconds invulnerability 60% Heal over 5 seconds	No invulnerability Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack	Works at full effect
Khora - Venari	Heal for 50 hp/sec	Fine as is. Will return functionality that kicked this whole Workshop off.	We will be returning the functionality it had before
Hydroid - Curative Undertow	Heals 30% hp every 1.5 secs when ally stands on it	Previously did nothing. Heal for 100 per 1.5 sec	On live does nothing
Harrow - Penance	Heals allies for a % of damage dealt Notes: Similar to Equinox, very hard to balance for this since it’s based on damage dealt.	Heals are capped up to 50 per.	On live does nothing
Oberon - Renew	125 burst heal 50 health per sec	Previously did nothing. Now, Fine as is and will inherit this behaviour.	On live does nothing
Garuda - Blood Siphon	Heals by % of missing health	Doesn’t apply, for flavor we think this shouldn’t.	On live does nothing
Inaros - Scarab Swarm	Heals for damage dealt by Swarm Projectile divided by allies in range.	Fine as is, will inherit this behaviour.	On live does nothing
Nidus - Ravenous	Heal allies standing on it for 20 HP per second	Fine as is, will inherit this behaviour.	On live does nothing
Wisp - Vitality Mote	Increase max hp by 300 and heal for 30 hp per second	Fine as is, will inherit this behaviour.	On live does nothing
Volt - Capacitance	Grants shields based on 3% of damage dealt	Capped at 250 shields, no overshields	On live does nothing
Titania - Passive	4 Heal Per Second for 20 Seconds,	Fine as is	On live does nothing
Sancti Magistar	Heals for damage dealt in an AoE	Heal for up to 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack with other players. Going from a burst to Heal over Time.	Going from burst to heal over time
Ancient Healer	Heal for 100 HP every 20 seconds	Fine as is	As is
Rejuvenation Aura	Heal 3 HP per sec	Fine as is	As is
Arcane Pulse	60% Chance to heal for 150 HP when picking up a globe with a 15 sec cooldown.	Fine as is	As is

Next let’s talk Damage Reduction. The above covers healing efforts, but what about abilities that reduce incoming Damage? It’s completely inconsistent on live right now, so we are making changes.
 

Damage Reduction

Damage Reduction Source	Normal effect	Effect on all types of static Defendable objects (Cryopods, Excavators, etc) NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions.	How does this already work on live?
Trinity - Blessing	50% Damage reduction unmodded	Capped at 50% Damage Reduction	On live does nothing
Mirage - Total Eclipse	Grants 75% Damage reduction to allies	Capped at 50% Damage Reduction	On live does nothing
Titania - Thorns	50% damage redirected to enemies	Fine as is	On live does nothing
Gara - Splinter Storm	70% Damage reduction	Capped at 50% Damage Reduction	Works at full effect
Ember - Immolated Radiance	50% of Immolates Damage reduction applies to allies	Capped at 50% Damage Reduction	On live does nothing
Baruuk - Desolate Hands	80% Damage reduction	Capped at 50% Damage Reduction	On live does nothing
Harrow - Warding Thurible	40% Damage Reduction	Capped at 50% Damage Reduction	Works at full effect
Nezha - Warding Halo	Absorbs 90% of damage	Capped at 50% Damage Reduction	On live does nothing

 

We are aiming to ship this bigger revision on Defendable Object healing in a near Hotfix - stay tuned as we dive deeper into this. We just wanted everyone to be aware of the intent within the same week we created the miscommunication and inconsistency.

Stay home, stay safe, have an awesome weekend Tenno!

Quote

This change is now live!

If you have further feedback, please use the following thread:

Healing Abilities on Objects
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1189074-railjack-revisited-part-1-healing-abilities-on-objects-feedback-megathread/ 
 

 

 

[Horned_Fox]

So are you saying that all healing will affect defense objects?

[Nemesis]

Vazarin does not work on the live version on the uplinks.

[Sintag]

So, I get that removing invuln on defense objectives is a point that Vazarin did need stripped away, as it made Defense downright trivial.

But why not drop the healing to 5% over 5s (or 500/5s, whichever's higher) on Defense Targets instead of just 500 over 5s?  I understand it needed a nerf, but this is going a bit too far in the other extreme.

(Though I also understand that these numbers ARE subject to change, so)

[Shiva]

Mmm.

[NekroArts]

1 minute ago, Nemesis said:

Vazarin does not work on the live version. That is an incorrect statement.

It's more half and half; there are things it does work with full effect and not.

[Kylo.]

Basically everything that can heal with heal now instead of certain abilities do certian don't?

[Nemesis]

1 minute ago, NekroArts said:

It's more half and half; there are things it does work with full effect and not.

Yeah, my bad, I edited it for more clarity

[Lakyus]

Interesting. Hoping for a nerf to the defense targets' survivability overall, so it does make a difference to use these abilities.

Limbo's augment was not listed?

[(PSN)f0l1v31r4]

That’s a really good initiative (consult to do it and consult to undo it).

if ppl complains about trivialize they can find a way to seek new levels of challenge using the same content.

before read all those changes (including SS) I sent a message to my clan council saying “if they put the event or anything close to what they doing on pc I’ll do just “MY” things and that’s all never gonna return to help.

if I can trivialize probably I’m gonna do mine and carry others 3 players including who ask for help in chats (region and recruitment). Because help without headaches it’s nice.
Help thinking which kind of headache I can have. Personally I just drop it.

 

[Ed.Rivera1999]

hace 3 minutos, Nemesis dijo:

Vazarin does not work on the live version. That is an incorrect statement.

as far as i'm aware, it only doesn't work on the op-links, but it does work on defense objectives like warframe cryopod, excavators, etc.

[zakaryx]

Edit*

Wait these numbers are going to scale with the objectives right? Because wisp giving a flat 300 health overheal isn't going to do squat in a level 99 lich/arbitration defense mission. Please look at using percentage of targets health instead of flat numbers. Flat numbers are why we end up with outdated mods like 250 damage Thunderbolt

Also please give these defense targets some armor so healing is actually effective on them. Last time I checked cryopods had something like 8% damage reduction at base.

 

These look like positive changes overall. Allowing more frames to actually have utility is always a good thing in my book.

 

However healing doesn't do squat when a lich still blaps an excavator instantly. Unless this was patched in the last month it's kinda a big problem.

 

Another edit*

Is there even any defense objective in the game that Mirage could actually use her augment on? I can't think of any dark areas we need to defend.

[Revanx]

  

46 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Vazarin - Protective Dash

5 seconds invulnerability

60% Heal over 5 seconds

No invulnerability

Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Works at full effect

Ah....... rip. Non-scaling and no invul. so much for using it in longer runs

[notNSANE]

Great work here. We don't need massive healings, just a bit and some "armor". Will allow for more strategies.

Numbers seem right, as long as several frames can stack them. If not, we have a problem.

[Voltage]

I understand why this is coming to light, but the nerf to Vazarin really stings. 500 health over 5 seconds is quite terrible when enemies will be doing thousands of damage per second when you need that regen and invulnerability the most. These changes will benefit the low end, but heavily nerf the high end which is very sad.

These changes will reinforce the meta from back in Tower Void where you have a Frost (Prime) abusing the invulnerability phase on Snowglobe and spamming said Snowglobe for hours straight to keep static defense objects alive. I hope you consider this outcome and see how unhealthy it is to indirectly encourage this gameplay on higher end defensive missions.

[Orokin]

Limbo still trivializes any kind of defense missions and with these changes he will be used even more

38 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

complement to the commonly used defensive abilities, such as Frost's Snow Globe, Gara's Mass Vitrify, Limbo's Cataclysm

You don't need to heal if Limbo makes the defense objective invulnerable by freezing all the enemies.

 

Fun, challenging content cannot exist if you allow players to AFK with a broken ability. Some semblance of balance has to be there. Freezing enemies for a minute(and then recasting) is too far.

[kxZyle]

Kuva extractors in Kuva Survival need more health.

[OceanDragon]

Honestly. Why were these nerfs even needed?

With all due respect, don't you guys at DE have better things to do than nerf something that isn't hurting the game in any way?

EDIT: Let me add some actual feedback to this.

This is not going to be a positive change. In warframe, we have powerful abilities that will trivialize these missions either way. These will be the best unless you ruin their functionality entirely. Trying to make other abilities similar, but significantly weaker won't change anything. Why go with a frame that has some utility, yet still has a chance to fail, when you can go with a frame that will ensure your success 100%.

In fact, what you'll end up doing if you push these changes out is you'll reduce the diversity. Biggest example of this is Vazarin change. With people using Vazarin, they can take any frame to a mission with a vulnerable objective and still feel fairly safe doing so. After it gets nerfed, they won't be able to take those frames and will feel forced to take frames like Limbo, Volt, Frost etc. It also reduces the value of using Vazrain to basically 0, but focus balance is a different topic (which would probably be a way better use of design time if you improve the underused schools there).

I hope this is a clear explanation why these are nerfs. I really hope you actually take any feedback into consideration with these changes.

[Leo.lev]

Great post, and great to see some consistency in healing skills applying to objects.

If OpLink is not included in these "Defendable Objects", you must state that!

If the design intention is that OpLink is not able to be healed, please state that in the patch notes.

[OvisCaedo]

Interesting. I can't really see any use for vazarin dash any more, but I never invested into it to begin with. Though, that's just one thing, anyhow, and focus school abilities being horribly balanced against each other and full of useless things is its own issue.

Overall, this seems pretty reasonable on the healing side of things. On the DR side of things, I do wonder if 50% might be kind of a low cap, but we'd have to see. Could always adjust if needed. I guess the healing caps might need some adjustment, too.

the core issue is that healing and DR methods need to compete against using powers that effectively prevent 100% of damage to the defense targets, instead, and that as levels go higher there is often no feasible skill based way to defend them. When enemies with hitscan guns come around the corner and start firing from every direction, you're only really going to prevent damage if you've either got a power in play that stops the risk completely in one way or another. Whether that be walls/CC or just wiping the map faster than enemies can act. DR and healing being more universally on the table could give another valid option, though, if you can more or less keep up with only the near-unavoidable chip damage you're bound to run into with more conservative playstyles.

edit: and, to be clear, I realize there's not really any way of fixing what I said the core issue is; it'll always be impossible to 'skillfully' defend targets without using powers that shoulder almost all of the burden. Making DR and healing abilities potentially apply is a good way of at least widening the scope of what can be used.

[84773-RY]

I do think the Vazarin Protective Dash should be a percentage rather than 100 a second, but agree the invulnerability should be removed. Maybe it could be damage reduction instead?

[LordPantaloonsthe3rd]

so mentions of healing not stacking are only on dash, equinox and trin, does that mean other healing effects can stack on the same target. Example, Khora and obie?

[Cray]

At least let Vazarin Protective Dash keep some of its value as a percentage. Non-scaling 500 leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

[Tromeo]

 

3 minutes ago, (PS4)f0l1v31r4 said:

That’s a really good initiative (consult to do it and consult to undo it).

 

But its not. A good initiative would have been to open a workshop before the event start.

[Skaleek]

Good bye vazarin, welcome back zenurik my old friend.