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Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets


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56 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

If everyone is excluded... who is excluded, exactly? What I just pointed out is that you are not even citing a problem with my point; you are simply bringing up other examples of frames that trivialize defense objectives as an excuse to have even more frames do the same. The solution should be to address those as well so that no frame can trivialize defense objectives, not to make every frame trivialize every mission just so they don't feel excluded.

Or, perhaps, we could start reevaluating the design of warframes over the long run so that frames are innately healthy to play, and don't break entire parts of the game just by doing their thing. The only reason Khora and Limbo were hastily nerfed is because their design was never given that sort of evaluation when it was needed, and the result was a rushed hotfix that caused undue suffering to both frames. Nuke frames are already a hot topic for many more reasons than just defense objectives as well, so this topic isn't the only reason why they should be addressed.

Frames are strong due to the fact that the energy system restricts nothing except weak abilities with energy drain. But you present the problem in a completely different way. 

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Just now, zhellon said:

Frames are strong due to the fact that the energy system restricts nothing except weak abilities with energy drain. But you present the problem in a completely different way. 

So your solution is to nerf every warframe at once by forcing them to constantly have Energy problems? Great idea, see how well that goes down. We've had our Energy limitations lifted because players expect to be able to use their abilities on demand, and that sort of availability is key to being able to play the game fluidly (and, at higher levels, many frames need 100% uptime on their defensive steroids to not die too quickly). I'd much rather have a game in which we had no Energy limitations, but in which frames were innately healthy, than one in which our abilities broke gameplay and could only be seldom used.

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2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

So your solution is to nerf every warframe at once by forcing them to constantly have Energy problems? Great idea, see how well that goes down. We've had our Energy limitations lifted because players expect to be able to use their abilities on demand, and that sort of availability is key to being able to play the game fluidly (and, at higher levels, many frames need 100% uptime on their defensive steroids to not die too quickly). I'd much rather have a game in which we had no Energy limitations, but in which frames were innately healthy, than one in which our abilities broke gameplay and could only be seldom used.

Well, I can use my abilities on demand and have zero effect. This is what you offer.

Edited by zhellon
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I know that DE wants to prevent insane scalling healing like Equinox and Trinity healing 100% with ease (and even 3% per second would be insane at higher levels), but I understand that fixed values make the benefit not worthy when it truly matters. So why not make it like Vauban's Photon Strike but with half the effect (Enemy Level ÷ 20)?

And instead of being based on the defense's target level the it is based on the highest enemy level present in the affinity range. So if there is a lvl80 and lvl101 in a 50m radius, the ability will scale based on lvl101. This would prevent insane scalling while keeping skills relevant. For example:

Formula would be: Heal x (Highest enemy level on affinity range÷ 20) 

500 HP/s would become 2525 HP/s vs lvl 101 enemies. 

Edited by HolySeraphin
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1 minute ago, zhellon said:

Well, I can use my abilities on demand and have zero effect. This is what you offer.

If by "zero effect" you mean "can't cheese a mission out of any and all possible challenge", then sure, that is indeed what I offer.

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16 hours ago, Diavoros said:

Things were this way for months or years and all it took for you guys to think that they were "overpowered" was taking the time to play your own game which you surely are with the current pandemic situation 🙄
Players have always found a way or ways to trivialize challenge, to cheese the game, and just now you are becoming aware of the workings for such intended features?
I dread what other "fixes" come in light of your discoveries about how the game is actually being played.

This is why a lot of us have stopped talking about things we actually like that work decently or better.  Noticed how this whole things started?  Someone mentioned that Khora was niche-healing the oplinks for a puny 50-150 hp/s.  Some tool just had to go ruin the intended and not even terribly useful thing, for an entire focus school that wasn't even involved across the entire game.

Don't be the person that tells tools what they need to know to be tools.

16 hours ago, fuzzySoup said:

With all due respect, is this really the most important thing to be working on for Warframe?!  I find it hard to believe that nerfing defense target healing a critical priority.

You know when you're in a doctor's office and they test your reflexes with a tiny triangular rubber mallet?  Welcome to kneejerk reactions.  No thought required, just do it!

 

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16 hours ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Except you're solely using one focus school. Now you don't need to. That's the options you mention in your post.

Except most people already  don't use that focus school, and after this NO ONE will use it.  That's not options.

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15 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Protective Dash had its own challenge to use with the invulnerability. Its percentage health restoration lets it scale consistently with the target, not get completely outstripped based on the level range you're working with - and when that inevitably does get outscaled in endurance runs, you have to manage a targeted dash every 5 seconds, in an alternate form to upkeep what Limbo could do by simply pressing one button, maybe two if you're feeling spicy. Since you'll not want to abandon your loadout and fight purely as operator, this becomes an intricate dance - Fighting, transference, aim, crouch, jump, transference, back to fighting - in a tight loop of timing. It was actually skilful and engaging to weave that proper protection in with actually.. clearing the enemies you have to clear. Protective Dash should stay exactly as is so it can function as the Non Defender Frame's fallback option. Three frames out of more than 40 is not a good spread of viability when it comes to this.

THIS.  SO MUCH THIS.

I can understand the healing going down to third or even a sixth what it is, but the invuln CANNOT go.  If the invuln goes then it needs percent protection and it needs to last about six times as long, and the healing CANNOT be nerfed below something like 20% max HP.

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15 hours ago, Graavarg said:

But healing 500 hp of excavator health at round X and 5000 hp at round Y in the same mission is simply not logical

Neither is the same type of enemy with the same uniform and the same weapon doing the same differences in numbers at the same times, but that happens too.  Your logic was inapplicable from the start, therefore flawed and its outcome incorrect.

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39 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

If by "zero effect" you mean "can't cheese a mission out of any and all possible challenge", then sure, that is indeed what I offer.

What about the fact that I can't heal the object and the challenge? Do you know how much damage 1 bombard 9999 level deals? 2 million per rocket. Do you know how much damage one trashy mob does? It's better you don't know, you won't sleep well.

The fact that my object has only 1hp does not make a challenge. This only forces me to use those things that block damage before they reach the object, because there are simply no other exits. Of course, there is CC, but now so many mobs have immunity to it that it actually does not exist. And this is what I mean when I talk about abilities that I can use on demand, but with zero effect. Yes, of course it doesn't matter on the old content, but the new content has so much immunity and dispelling to abilities that you're actually not not funny and I'd rather have energy restrictions.

Naturally, all this is with the caveat that weak abilities should not have energy problems, but now they cost the same as abilities that disable the game, which is lol. Are you still talking about the challenge? 

 

 

Edited by zhellon
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Just now, zhellon said:

What about the fact that I can't heal the object and the challenge? Do you know how much damage 1 bombard 9999 level deals? 2 million per rocket. Do you know how much damage one trashy mob does? It's better you don't know, you won't sleep well.

I'm sorry, when in a normal level are you going to run into a level 9999 Bombard? Your argument seems to be that, past a certain point, the enemy becomes so powerful as to make continuing the mission impossible... which is exactly the point of that system. You might now like it (I certainly don't), but that's the way the cookie crumbles, and if you take issue with that, suggest a different system, not band-aids to cheese gameplay at all levels.

Just now, zhellon said:

The fact that my object has only 1hp does not make a challenge. This only forces me to use those things that block damage before they reach the object, because there are simply no other exits. Of course, there is CC, but now so many mobs have immunity to it that it actually does not exist. And this is what I mean when I talk about abilities that I can use on demand, but with zero effect. Yes, of course it doesn't matter on the old content, but the new content has so much immunity and dispelling to abilities that you're actually not not funny and I'd rather have energy restrictions.

And when your Energy restrictions apply and you're deprived of a vital ability just as your objective is about to die... congratulations, you'll have the exact scenario you're afraid of, except it'll hit you at the worst possible moment when you expected better, and thus make the experience significantly worse. This is why I'd rather have healthy abilities with unlimited usage.

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8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

And when your Energy restrictions apply and you're deprived of a vital ability just as your objective is about to die... congratulations, you'll have the exact scenario you're afraid of, except it'll hit you at the worst possible moment when you expected better, and thus make the experience significantly worse. This is why I'd rather have healthy abilities with unlimited usage.

This is the whole point, you just take a frame that will work in the current situation. But no healer or DR tank is working right now, which means you won't use them if the mobs ' damage is high enough. One hour of arbitrage already allows mobs to kill defeance target very quickly. And then there is a choice, either you take DPS and kill everything quickly, or you take wall tank and do not allow damage. Either you take a healer and get nothing from your abilities. Cool, right? Very balanced.

Edited by zhellon
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1 minute ago, zhellon said:

This is the whole point, you just take a frame that will work in the current situation. But no healer or DR tank is working right now, which means you won't use them if the mobs ' damage is high enough. One hour of arbitrage already allows mobs to kill defeance target very quickly. And then there is a choice, either you take DPS and kill everything quickly, or you take wall tank and do not allow damage. Either you take a healer and get nothing from your abilities. Cool, right? Very balanced.

Your first two statements contradict each other: if healers aren't adapted to the current situation, why pick healers? Again, if nukers can nuke effortlessly at high levels, that will be a balance problem that won't change, and throwing healers into the mix will make balance worse, not better.

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2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:
Your first two statements contradict each other: if healers aren't adapted to the current situation, why pick healers? Again, if nukers can nuke effortlessly at high levels, that will be a balance problem that won't change, and throwing healers into the mix will make balance worse, not better.

We take the object 40K hp. Put an ancient healer, we get 400K EHP. Trinity will give 50%, 800k. We have 4 team members that can actually accelerate the EHP goal to 1600k for 2 Trinity, 3200K for 3 Trinity, 6400k for 4 Trinity. Instead of Trinity, put any DR frame. And then it will be important how quickly you heal. So no, I'm not contradicting myself.

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1 minute ago, zhellon said:

We take the object 40K hp. Put an ancient healer, we get 400K EHP. Trinity will give 50%, 800k. We have 4 team members that can actually accelerate the EHP goal to 1600k for 2 Trinity, 3200K for 3 Trinity, 6400k for 4 Trinity. Instead of Trinity, put any DR frame. And then it will be important how quickly you heal. So no, I'm not contradicting myself.

Well yes, you are, because you are asking for these changes to happen, for Trinity to be able to heal and give damage reduction to the defense objective, instead of adapting to what you have, as most have already done with OpLinks. You are asking for the game to change to suit your preferences, knowing full well the detrimental effect such a change would have on long-term balance.

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if this does not scale as levels go higher its just a fix for low end players.
that said, i hope it scales with level or at least with the health of the objective, because you know, damage scales so heals does not matter in long runs.

If that is the case and the heal does not scale, why you guys expect that people will stay playing the game for more time? what is the motive to play longer than 20 mins?

It'll get to a point when one simple grineer will one shot kill the objective no matter what.

And yet you guys seems to want us playing more of the game by increasing grind instead of revising and adding new stuff into older mission types, because you know, if we are not supposed to spend more than 20 min on missions, then we need a variety factor on missions to compensate and keep the missions interesting. that can be solved easily with so many ideas: the "star system" that Scot talked on stream, Scaling rewards, Variable buffs and debuffs per mission on a small scale, and so on.

sorry if this seems like a rant, but thing is, all warframes problems seems to be more tied together than the game modes that are present in the game lol. it can be fixed, dont make me lose the last bits of hope that i still got for this game DE.  

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6 minutes ago, zhellon said:

We take the object 40K hp. Put an ancient healer, we get 400K EHP. Trinity will give 50%, 800k. We have 4 team members that can actually accelerate the EHP goal to 1600k for 2 Trinity, 3200K for 3 Trinity, 6400k for 4 Trinity. Instead of Trinity, put any DR frame. And then it will be important how quickly you heal. So no, I'm not contradicting myself.

The heal's slated to not stack with other sources of the same variety. The DR is 'capped' to 50% which could very well include stacking different buff sources too.

And just because they forgot to mention the Ancient Healer in the DR section as well as the heal section doesn't mean they'd be leaving that 90% reduction in. So take everything you just said and slice it right down to 80k EHP.

Seems a bit different now, doesn't it?

Edited by TheLexiConArtist
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Just now, Teridax68 said:
Well yes, you are, because you are asking for these changes to happen, for Trinity to be able to heal and give damage reduction to the defense objective, instead of adapting to what you have, as most have already done with OpLinks. You are asking for the game to change to suit your preferences, knowing full well the detrimental effect such a change would have on long-term balance.

That is, you think it is very balanced that only 3 frames are suitable for protection in space missions, and then with the reservation with Mesa will be next to it, because there are actually no other ways to protect OpLinks, since they can get oneshot in a couple of seconds already on 3 ship? 

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Just now, zhellon said:

That is, you think it is very balanced that only 3 frames are suitable for protection in space missions, and then with the reservation with Mesa will be next to it, because there are actually no other ways to protect OpLinks, since they can get oneshot in a couple of seconds already on 3 ship? 

So, first off, I suggest actually playing the thing you are talking about, because a) one-shots are no longer possible in this context after shield gating, b) Murex 3 enemies are still pushovers, and c) Limbo, Frost, Nova, Mesa, Wisp, and quite a few more are doing perfectly fine, but even if your hyperbolic claim were actually true... no, I don't think the current state of the game is balanced, I just don't think that's an excuse to actively worsen said balance. You are advocating a change that brings more frames in simply by making them break those missions, when we should instead be looking to address the frames that are trivializing those missions now.

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5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

As such, I'd rather defense objectives in general were made immune to ally utility of all kinds, which would eliminate the above book-keeping and avoid pressure to bring only a certain few frames to those missions.

Are you crazy?  All that would do would be to FORCE people to bring Frost/Gara/Limbo to every single one of those missions all the time.  Worst idea ever.

12 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Well it was fun while it lasted, but at least it's only getting nerfed instead of removed

No Protective Dash is getting removed.  It literally won't matter even slightly vs content above level 0 = removed.

10 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Don't blame the Khora mains, blame that one guy who decided to be the Fun Police and report it as a bug in the event thread.

Not even a bug.  More like something that actually did what it was supposed to do against the actually bugged arbitrary unhealability of these things.

Arbitrary "lol no that doesn't work now, surprise sucka!" is just bad DE.  It's bad with status immune super-tank enemies as ALL of the tougher enemies.  It's bad with arbitrary ability immune enemies with no tell.  It's bad with "lolnope your powers got stripped globally just because".  Just stahp.  Either don't let us have things in the first place, or when you "lolnope" them make it for very logical and apparent reasons, and with some tell to give time to prepare alternate tactics.  Scrambus = great.  Nullie = horribad.  Some sort of status-cleansing enemy or enemy ability = good.  Random complete status immunity on tanky enemy = bad.

5 hours ago, papry said:

Please Rebecca for oberon :

Check the energy comsumption with thing like nekros shadow & lure and an high number of target to heal.

This.  SoTD is already one of the most troll abilities in the game with certain energy colors.  Having it put the mega succ on Oberon's energy pool is just pure torture.

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Just now, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Are you crazy?  All that would do would be to FORCE people to bring Frost/Gara/Limbo to every single one of those missions all the time.  Worst idea ever.

Which is already the case, because those frames are built to trivialize defense missions, and making other frames trivialize those missions too will not make that problem go away. In fact, it was Frost and then Limbo that were responsible for DE not making Excavators scale in health and shields until very recently, as even without that scaling, those frames allowed for those missions to be auto-completed, and thus meant people had no strong reason to complain about a balancing problem that makes the mode impossible to reasonably complete without said mandatory frames.

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I admit as a Vazarin user the protective dash on Defense targets was a little crazy but this flat 500hp no stack Idea is going to make life beyond difficult for those of us, trying to progress through the starchart, especially on the switch, where it is hard to find a good (or even at that a second player) squad capable of holding their own. I recommend a percentage over the flat 500, as in high level missions enemies can easily dish out 500 damage and undo that entire heal dash. In conclusion, percentages are always a good option for scaling.

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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

If by "zero effect" you mean "can't cheese a mission out of any and all possible challenge", then sure, that is indeed what I offer.

When "can't cheese a mission out of any and all challenge" means "can't heal a Sedna defense target for 0.4 hp/s", I think you need to crack your dictionary open for a good long time.  It's getting lonely.

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Just now, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

When "can't cheese a mission out of any and all challenge" means "can't heal a Sedna defense target for 0.4 hp/s", I think you need to crack your dictionary open for a good long time.  It's getting lonely.

If the change were to produce no tangible effect, why exactly are you defending it tooth and nail here? Your stance in this thread makes no sense.

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