Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

Which is already the case

On the event sure, on everything else, no.

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

and making other frames trivialize those missions too

ORLY.  Name me a mission type that Frost/Gara/Limbo can't do just fine.  Better yet, name me four mission types.  When you can do that, then you can propose the above argument.

[_Tormex_]

I am so happy right now! Thank you for going above and beyond to not only fix Venari's healing ability but also revamp healing of objectives with every frame! I am excited to see all of these changes implemented in game, especially the damage reduction effects. I feel like the combination of these effects will make defending objectives much more interesting.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

If the change were to produce no tangible effect, why exactly are you defending it tooth and nail here?

I didn't say that.  Dictionary.  Don't expect further replies until you do.

[selig_fay]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

So, first off, I suggest actually playing the thing you are talking about, because a) one-shots are no longer possible in this context after shield gating, b) Murex 3 enemies are still pushovers, and c) Limbo, Frost, Nova, Mesa, Wisp, and quite a few more are doing perfectly fine, but even if your hyperbolic claim were actually true... no, I don't think the current state of the game is balanced, I just don't think that's an excuse to actively worsen said balance. You are advocating a change that brings more frames in simply by making them break those missions, when we should instead be looking to address the frames that are trivializing those missions now.

Wisp is there more like a support team for Mesa, no more. And I would like to talk about many others. Can be Valkyrie there useful? Or nezha?

[Teridax68]

4 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

On the event sure, on everything else, no.

Uh, yes. Try going to a Defense or Excavation mission at a reasonably high level without any of the usuals and see how far that gets you. If more frames are viable already... why do we need to make them stronger, then?

Quote

ORLY.  Name me a mission type that Frost/Gara/Limbo can't do just fine.  Better yet, name me four mission types.  When you can do that, then you can propose the above argument.

What does the viability of those frames in other missions have to do with the subject of discussion? I'd say the frames aren't amazing for certain Spy missions, Profit-Taker, Eidolon hunts, or ESO, but that's not really relevant to how they affect defense objectives.

3 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

I didn't say that.  Dictionary.  Don't expect further replies until you do.

If that means you'll stop filling this thread with dreck, sounds like a win-win to me.

3 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Wisp is there more like a support team for Mesa, no more. And I would like to talk about many others. Can be Valkyrie there useful? Or nezha?

The reasons for Wisp's viability are secondary to the fact that she is indeed viable. Also, how exactly will these changes make Valkyr any more viable?

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

Also, how exactly will these changes make Valkyr any more viable?

No, but I'm still thinking, who are these many others.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

If those main defense frames can do any OTHER mission, why shouldn't any frame be able to do defense missions at at least a somewhat passable level?  There's the blindingly obvious answer to your pretend question.

[GOOBER__LORD]

Vazarin invincibility nerf unwarranted. Why it should be left alone:

1) It enables squishy frames the opportunity to fight against higher level enemies who dish out more damage. A few seconds of invulnerability isn't that OP. ie go take a banshee to fight a level 5 Kuva Lich and you will see what I mean. The invincibility nerf of the dash actually narrows the amount of frames viable for use against enemies that hit hard (lvl 5 Kuva Lich etc).

2) I understand the developers want to encourage healing from frames to targets (that is a great idea), but a few seconds of invincibility on objectives isn't that overpowered. For example, I have gone into Kuva Lich defense missions solo without a "defense frame - limbo, frost, Gara, etc" and the vazarin dash makes the mission DOABLE versus impossible. 500 healing over 5 seconds isn't going to matter if the target is getting pummeled with THOUSANDS of damage per second. 

3) Focus farming is fairly intensive and I feel like the vazarin change weakens the vazarin school to the point where I would no longer use it. This nerf just gives players an excfuse to run Zenurik or Madurai instead. I feel like this patch punishes players who have gone through the grind to acquire the school. On top of that it encourages new players to go and acquire other schools. 

On the off chance the developers read this, the main point I want to get across is to please keep the few seconds of invulnerability the dash offers. A few seconds isn't very much. 

Thanks for your time. 

Goober. 

 

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

13 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

ORLY.  Name me a mission type that Frost/Gara/Limbo can't do just fine.  Better yet, name me four mission types.  When you can do that, then you can propose the above argument.

Devil's advocate here, I'm going to say Disruption, but that's because Demolysts pulse that all-encompassing 'no you can't do what you're made to do' field that is Nullification. They're a DPS race, plain and simple, so there's a definitive point where Frost and Limbo aren't really doing anything identifiable as their input.

Gara could squeeze out a result if she managed to stack Splinter Storm forever and weaved in a body-check instakill between pulses, at least. The constant ability and control clearing/diminishing to the point of uselessness doesn't affect that part of her kit, but she's always been the most 'offensive defender'.

[Teridax68]

 

2 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

If those main defense frames can do any OTHER mission, why shouldn't any frame be able to do defense missions at at least a somewhat passable level?  There's the blindingly obvious answer to your pretend question.

Oh, they should, they just shouldn't do it by cheesing it, is my point. You don't seem to have quite understood the point you are arguing so angrily against.

2 hours ago, zhellon said:

No, but I'm still thinking, who are these many others.

So, effectively, Valkyr has no relevance to this discussion. I listed a few others, but really, the original point stands that the solution to defense objectives shouldn't be to try to make every frame break them.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

Just now, TheLexiConArtist said:

Devil's advocate here, I'm going to say Disruption, but that's because Demolysts pulse that all-encompassing 'no you can't do what you're made to do' field that is Nullification. They're a DPS race, plain and simple, so there's a definitive point where Frost and Limbo aren't really doing anything identifiable as their input.

Gara could squeeze out a result if she managed to stack Splinter Storm forever and weaved in a body-check instakill between pulses, at least. The constant ability and control clearing/diminishing to the point of uselessness doesn't affect that part of her kit, but she's always been the most 'offensive defender'.

Fair, but no CC works on demolysts other than the handful of things DE either doesn't know about or hasn't been able to find a way to nerf yet without actually deleting them from the game because of their continuously applied natures, so that's hardly a surprise.  Realistically nothing works there except for the DPS frames that work on everything else too.  Still, that's one type of fairly-reviled and new mode, versus Defense, Mobile Defense, Excavation, Rescue, now Squad link, and probably one or two others I'm missing like salvage or something.  Apart from that, Frost strips armor and Limbo can have a multiplier on things in the rift (though I think demos are immune to being rifted), so they CAN do DPS, just maybe not as much as some others.

Frames like Trinity on the other hand?  CC 2 targets and now will be able to do 50%DR and 100hp/s heal by spamming Blessing.  Not viable past joke-level enemies.  Garuda?  Barely more CC than Trinity, though the DPS is potentially decent.  Lots of other frames, really anything without massive long range CC on the cheap or able to set up literal walls around the defense target.  Can't do objective defense missions at an even sort-of challenging level.  The equivalent of if every single enemy that spawned versus those defense frames was a nullfier, pretty much.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

There's a difference between "usable for a minimal required difficulty run of a mission" and "broken", I know not everyone can understand that such a difference exists, but people who can't have no business discussing balance.

[---.CCC.---TradeFrame]

19 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Vazarin - Protective Dash

It should still have a (reduced) invulnerability AND a % based healing (even if you bring it to 10 or 20%).
Don't nerf it completely to the ground, that it's utterly useless.

Understand it from the point of people who might be new to playing or who do long runs or if you are carrying a team of 3 randoms, that having this really helps.
Please don't make changes that makes it look as if you don't play the game or (on the extreme) play the game at an elite level.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

Minimum required difficulty of a mission is not starcart, although a fair number of frames can't even do that with the proposed changes.  Arb?  Sortie?  GoTL?  Those things provide basic gimp-tier testing of viability, and everything should be able to make it to rotation C at least once with a good enough build.  As-is a lot of things couldn't make it to A no matter what build if these changes go through.

[---.CCC.---TradeFrame]

18 minutes ago, GOOBER__LORD said:

Vazarin invincibility nerf unwarranted. Why it should be left alone:

1) It enables squishy frames the opportunity to fight against higher level enemies who dish out more damage. A few seconds of invulnerability isn't that OP. ie go take a banshee to fight a level 5 Kuva Lich and you will see what I mean. The invincibility nerf of the dash actually narrows the amount of frames viable for use against enemies that hit hard (lvl 5 Kuva Lich etc).

2) I understand the developers want to encourage healing from frames to targets (that is a great idea), but a few seconds of invincibility on objectives isn't that overpowered. For example, I have gone into Kuva Lich defense missions solo without a "defense frame - limbo, frost, Gara, etc" and the vazarin dash makes the mission DOABLE versus impossible. 500 healing over 5 seconds isn't going to matter if the target is getting pummeled with THOUSANDS of damage per second. 

3) Focus farming is fairly intensive and I feel like the vazarin change weakens the vazarin school to the point where I would no longer use it. This nerf just gives players an excfuse to run Zenurik or Madurai instead. I feel like this patch punishes players who have gone through the grind to acquire the school. On top of that it encourages new players to go and acquire other schools. 

On the off chance the developers read this, the main point I want to get across is to please keep the few seconds of invulnerability the dash offers. A few seconds isn't very much. 

Thanks for your time. 

Goober. 

 

 

I truly hope that the dev team and @[DE]Rebecca can actually read every reply here, to see replies like this, hidden away 10 pages down.

1 minute ago, IronHair said:

It should still have a (reduced) invulnerability AND a % based healing (even if you bring it to 10 or 20%).
Don't nerf it completely to the ground, that it's utterly useless.

Understand it from the point of people who might be new to playing or who do long runs or if you are carrying a team of 3 randoms, that having this really helps.
Please don't make changes that makes it look as if you don't play the game or (on the extreme) play the game at an elite level.

 

[AKShamu28]

Instead of it being a static 500 per 5 seconds, might you consider a percentile per 5 seconds? Even 5% is better, at higher levels and stuff, 500hp is nothing. 

[(PSN)nerdlegend]

We need healing to scale, targets healing for 500 against 20k or 10k average health pool is one hell of a joke. Seems to me that don't want players playing endless missions for long this more aimed towards star chart content. If that the case increase the rewards for short missions and decrease for longer ones. Mainly talking about the event here. 

[Guest]

So, sweeping, reactionary changes to healing & damage reduction during an already bug-ridden event.  (I've lost over 1/2 of the credits I should have received due to bugs / not receiving the emails afterwards.)  I would really have hoped you'd have utilized your new test server that was recently announced before pushing these changes live.  These don't seem the sort of changes to be implemented off the cuff.

[Metalikka]

Great, another patch that will make Frost even more irrelevant and forgotten. Over the years, Frost and other OG frames are slowly but surely being replaced by better frames and mechanics, they seriously seriously need a little touch to survive the meta. The Operation proves Frost is getting forgotten, as an inferior Limbo. 

[Ikusi_Prime]

20 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

Honestly, I'm proud of you, DE. When I heard you were looking at abilities healing defense targets, I thought you'd go the other way, removing any way of healing defense targets, but instead you're opening up new strategies and allowing more Warframes to be viable.

Even if this opens up a can of worms, I think it's a good can of worms to open. I'd rather things be interactive.

[NoLife]

Your caps.
% Over Time please.
Not linear 500.

Recommended approach:
"#%Healing Over #Seconds, OR #Healing Over #Seconds, Whichever is Higher."
For all healing methods.

[megamino]

Hmmm the number are subject but i get your communication and it worth to take it as a variation and a new meta to some modes even Scarlet Spear... Love your idea DE

[(XBOX)UmbranAssassin]

21 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Nice Job DE nerf one of the only reason people stray from the most meta of focus trees and use a non zenurik focus tree other than Inaros player refusing to fall below 4k health. That's definitely how you promote challenging and more diverse gameplay, make operator abilities outside of free energy regen(which we can already do with the hundreds energy plates most vets have stocked up even more than health ones) or sitting as operator next to an eidolon even more trivial beause 500 HP and non invulnerability is gonna do jack sh*t by the time you actually need the ability.

2 hours ago, IronHair said:

I truly hope that the dev team and @[DE]Rebecca can actually read every reply here, to see replies like this, hidden away 10 pages down.

My problem with it is that imo this just reinforces the crappy zenurik meta, not by making zenurik better but by actively making one of the very few reasons people use not zenurik so much worse.

[SteelSoldier]

Maybe the other schools could offer different bonuses to defensive targets, although I do like that they are trying to make certain abilities more useful in more situations

[(XBOX)UmbranAssassin]

5 hours ago, MacIntoc said:

Thanks DE to overreact on minor niche bug.

Not even a Bug DE intentionally added khora being able to barely heal objectives/Oplinks like there was even a power tips tab on it in the arsenal they just didn't like how people didn't care to make this ridiculous buggy and  barely rewarding event harder forthemselves by all playing squishy frames or frames with no heal abilities.