Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets

[Karpik]

Flat heals are worth nothing:

• In low level content, where flat heals would be noticed, we don't need it because we murder S#&$ on sight.
• In high level content, flat heals will be funny because objectives will have so much more HP. It won't help at all, because dmg is significantly higher and puny 300 or 500 hp won't be even noticed.

I guess there's 'mid' content here somewhere, but honestly, I'd say it's higher Void missions, where I have no reason to go to.

---

Also, this change makes Vazarin pretty useless and I won't bother to use it again. Most of my usage was Radiation sorties with defence things, when I had reckless folks on Mesa/Saryn/else nuking the S#&$ out of everything. I could prevent mobile defense thing from dying, by keeping it on Protective Dash as much as possible, while yelling at nukers between dashes to chill out and explaining what Radiation is...

I can understand the need to remove invulnerability (it was cheesing), but if it doesn't heal 60% or something solid, then I'll be always better off on Zenurik or Naramon, and most likely doing the mission solo. I never bothered using Vazarin on Tenno, because it's too flimsy and squishy frames remain squishy, a couple of secs won't make it or break it.

I'm not sure how other people used Vazarin, but somehow I doubt I'm isolated in my usage. I hope DE looks more in depth at usage and in the general run towards nerfing heal on inanimate stuff, you don't invalidate something folks genuinely used + remove something that only Vazarin did.

---

TL;DR:

Percentage heals make a lot more sense than flat hp heals.

Vazarin will become useless.

 

[MacIntoc]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)UmbranAssassin said:

Not even a Bug DE intentionally added khora being able to barely heal objectives/Oplinks like there was even a power tips tab on it in the arsenal they just didn't like how people didn't care to make this ridiculous buggy and  barely rewarding event harder forthemselves by all playing squishy frames or frames with no heal abilities.

Except that DE wanted the oplinks to be non-healable defense objectives.

[(XBOX)UmbranAssassin]

1 minute ago, MacIntoc said:

Except that DE wanted the oplinks to be non-healable defense objectives.

if that's the case why nerf the entirety of objective healing abilities for the entire game instead of keeping contained to this terrible event. or why initially entirely remove khora's ability to heal any objective. IMO while it could be completely true that  what they intended with how everythings gone since the release of this event to me it sounds more like an excuse they came up with after the fact to try and do damage control and have a little bit more to lean into when nerfing the other objective heal abilities.

[Ambyli]

they know health scales on their defense targets right? lol

A flat 500 over 5 seconds will literally do nothing, thats why Vazarin was a percentage in the first place??????

[Sylonus]

While I'm all for letting abilities that had no affect on the target affect them, the nerfs to the best abilities will cause some issues. This will probably work out fine for -MOST- situations, but the situations where it will not work out (Very high end enemy scaling, especially on Excavators & Kuva Siphons.) will be DRASTICALLY harder, at a certain point those things basically instantly die if they're not perma-vazarined, I can get behind this change if they'll consider something like a "per-hit maximum percentage-of-health" cap for these things, if say they couldn't take more than 10-15% of their max health in damage in a single hit. Also in my opinion they should consider doing a similar thing in reverse in the case of healing, a "per-heal maximum percentage-of-health" would be healthier rather than capping heals at specific values, which falls to hilariously low seeming amounts as objective health scales. 

[Signs]

Hey instead of making most of the heals a super low heal per second, why not make it way higher but cap it at a % of the targets Max hp per second? For example, make it 1000 hp/s but can't heal more than 5% of the targets max hp per second.

[Darkpaladin13]

and de oberon buff armour ? can aply in defs

[nslay]

I don't know. It just doesn't make any sense. Punish Splinter Storm on defense objectives but just cast Cataclysm for 100% DR on the defense objective. As long as Cataclysm exists and works the way it does, they should not touch any of these abilities on defense objectives. It's disgusting. I don't want to play Limbo, I think he's boring and his abilities (no matter how powerful) annoy players to no end. I chose Gara because she's fun and Frost and Limbo annoy players!

Gara has the Splinter Storm because her glass walls break. I just don't understand why they would even reduce it when she's so hard to build and use all the way to Condrix #17. But Limbo gets a pass at 100% damage reduction.

You know what? I'm going to post in that thread. And I'm going to make a hypothetical addition to that table for Cataclysm... Cataclysm has 50% effect on OpLinks. How's that for fair?

Here's that table entry for OP.

Limbo - Cataclysm

Allies and defense objects in rift are unaffected by enemy fire (100% damage reduction)

Defense objectives are 50% outside of the rift (50% damage reduction)

On live reduces damage by 100%

[Oxf0rd]

You dont want player to use Limbo because its make SS looks easy and yet you decided to nerf vazarin that can make this event playable with more frame. This is the proof that you dont play your own game DE, im out from this game

[waterboytkd]

I really like the direction of these changes, but do think the numbers should be looked at more. For instance, 500 health over 5 seconds is really low when talking about something like the OpLink (represents 2.5% of its max health, over 5 seconds), especially if the wave count is getting into the teens. Even for something like any objective in a Kuva Lich mission, especially if the Lich is rank 4 or 5, it's a pittance of healing. 

Maybe stick to %-based healing? Rather than 500 health from Blessing, make it 5-10% healing per second for 5 seconds? Other things too. If you go %-based, you head off any issues with the abilities not scaling with the content.

[Above]

I'm honestly not sure what's going trough your heads over at DE

Defense targets get oneshot, what's the 100/s helping?
Thanks for catering towards casuals yet again

[MacIntoc]

45 minutes ago, (XB1)UmbranAssassin said:

if that's the case why nerf the entirety of objective healing abilities for the entire game instead of keeping contained to this terrible event. or why initially entirely remove khora's ability to heal any objective. IMO while it could be completely true that  what they intended with how everythings gone since the release of this event to me it sounds more like an excuse they came up with after the fact to try and do damage control and have a little bit more to lean into when nerfing the other objective heal abilities.

Probably because it was easier and faster for them to disable Venarie's healing capacities instead of modifing oplinks to not be healed by Venarie. They overreacted on minor niche bug. I really don't think they wanted to create one more S#&$storm.

[Nezha_Rose]

I stopped using Zenurik because it was too good. I mained Vazarin, so... whats the point now then?

Ill just return to Zenurik then.

[marelooke]

4 hours ago, MacIntoc said:

Probably because it was easier and faster for them to disable Venarie's healing capacities instead of modifing oplinks to not be healed by Venarie. They overreacted on minor niche bug. I really don't think they wanted to create one more S#&$storm.

Ill thought out changes are the reason there's a S#&$storm (that and the fact that anything that doesn't cause a S#&$storm is usually ignored. Stealth nerf to melee momentum on melee 2.x-ish anyone?). It's not exactly the first one in recent history.

[Duskztar]

If you're actually going to listen to feedback, then hopefully you'll realise the flat numbers you're putting out wouldn't work anywhere past maybe saturn, the maximum heals need to be percentage based or it'll either be completely useless where it actually matters or overtuned in earlier missions. The flat number limits I think everyone can agree needs to be changed.

And nerfing Vazarin kinda hurts the few people who actually use it, since you know, considering focus schools takes a huge investment from your average player and not many people use Vazarin in random defense missions, so why nerf one of the useful abilities of an underused school to such an extent? Maybe reduce the invincibility time or give it a cooldown, but not completely remove it at least? Everyone's already talked about how the heal part of it is also bad.

Finally, do the damage reduction caps stack? Or are we stuck with 50% damage reduction even if all four frames have different damage reduction abilities? If they don't stack then that's also bad since then there's no point to having any other damage reduction ability other than one. If they do stack you should clarify that.

[Steel_Rook]

Question: how does this affect "human" defence targets? Specifically, how does this affect Kavor Defectors and Sortie Defence Civilians? Right now, Trinity's full healing and damage resistance potential is usable on Kavor Defectors directly, rendering Disruption SUBSTANTIALLY easier while most other healing types don't seem to affect them. Inaros' Scarab Swarm, for instance, does not seem to affect Kavor Defectors, or at least I've been unable to get it to work. And what about Sortie Defence targets? Would they be fully healable, considering they're infinitely revivable?

Also question: How does this affect Hijack objectives? Near as I can tell, those have never been affected by abilities, and are crucially not easily affected by either Snow Globe or Vitrify. Moreover, Sortie Hijack objectives have a large nullification field around them which make them immune to player abilities. Is that worth revisiting?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to look for flaws. I actually rather like the core idea of this Workshop. I'm more trying to dig into the implementation details, since this has the potential to be pretty neat if it affects all the things it could potentially affect.

[FSK41]

Guys Vazarin is fine now,it heals 500hp /5 seconds,the level 10 enemies don't do so much damage.DE really plays their own game and know exactly that they only do 480 damage in 5 seconds so we still have our ,,invulnerability'' because we heal faster than they do damage.I am really glad I can still do my 5 Waves of defense on earth like  I am supposed to do in this game without needing frames to heal the pod.Imagine it was only 400 hp/second and they could kill it.I  love how DE thinks of which missions we do and how they know their own  game,it is almost like they are one of us and play this lovely game everyday.I bet some of them even have world records in defense considering how much they know about the game.Best Developers out there tbh./s

[Steel_Rook]

5 minutes ago, Duskztar said:

If you're actually going to listen to feedback, then hopefully you'll realise the flat numbers you're putting out wouldn't work anywhere past maybe saturn, the maximum heals need to be percentage based or it'll either be completely useless where it actually matters or overtuned in earlier missions. The flat number limits I think everyone can agree needs to be changed.

This I agree with. The healing caps seem excessively low. I would personally cap healing by percentage health of the objective. If you want to be really thorough, cap it to, say, "500 healing or 5% of objective health, whichever is higher." That way, a high-level defence objective sitting on 50K health could still be healed for 2500. And keep in mind I'm kind of pulling numbers out of my ass.

[Rogelio_Gaona]

7 hours ago, GOOBER__LORD said:

Vazarin invincibility nerf unwarranted. Why it should be left alone:

1) It enables squishy frames the opportunity to fight against higher level enemies who dish out more damage. A few seconds of invulnerability isn't that OP. ie go take a banshee to fight a level 5 Kuva Lich and you will see what I mean. The invincibility nerf of the dash actually narrows the amount of frames viable for use against enemies that hit hard (lvl 5 Kuva Lich etc).

2) I understand the developers want to encourage healing from frames to targets (that is a great idea), but a few seconds of invincibility on objectives isn't that overpowered. For example, I have gone into Kuva Lich defense missions solo without a "defense frame - limbo, frost, Gara, etc" and the vazarin dash makes the mission DOABLE versus impossible. 500 healing over 5 seconds isn't going to matter if the target is getting pummeled with THOUSANDS of damage per second. 

3) Focus farming is fairly intensive and I feel like the vazarin change weakens the vazarin school to the point where I would no longer use it. This nerf just gives players an excfuse to run Zenurik or Madurai instead. I feel like this patch punishes players who have gone through the grind to acquire the school. On top of that it encourages new players to go and acquire other schools. 

On the off chance the developers read this, the main point I want to get across is to please keep the few seconds of invulnerability the dash offers. A few seconds isn't very much. 

Thanks for your time. 

Goober. 

 

 

Totally agree with this.

[---.CCC.---TradeFrame]

20 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Protective Dash had its own challenge to use with the invulnerability. Its percentage health restoration lets it scale consistently with the target, not get completely outstripped based on the level range you're working with - and when that inevitably does get outscaled in endurance runs, you have to manage a targeted dash every 5 seconds, in an alternate form to upkeep what Limbo could do by simply pressing one button, maybe two if you're feeling spicy. Since you'll not want to abandon your loadout and fight purely as operator, this becomes an intricate dance - Fighting, transference, aim, crouch, jump, transference, back to fighting - in a tight loop of timing. It was actually skilful and engaging to weave that proper protection in with actually.. clearing the enemies you have to clear. Protective Dash should stay exactly as is so it can function as the Non Defender Frame's fallback option. Three frames out of more than 40 is not a good spread of viability when it comes to this.

THIS is what I feel about it.
It's a good mix of multiple actions that makes it a good active mechanic and routine.

[---.CCC.---TradeFrame]

13 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Question: how does this affect "human" defence targets? Specifically, how does this affect Kavor Defectors and Sortie Defence Civilians? Right now, Trinity's full healing and damage resistance potential is usable on Kavor Defectors directly, rendering Disruption SUBSTANTIALLY easier while most other healing types don't seem to affect them. Inaros' Scarab Swarm, for instance, does not seem to affect Kavor Defectors, or at least I've been unable to get it to work. And what about Sortie Defence targets? Would they be fully healable, considering they're infinitely revivable?

Also question: How does this affect Hijack objectives? Near as I can tell, those have never been affected by abilities, and are crucially not easily affected by either Snow Globe or Vitrify. Moreover, Sortie Hijack objectives have a large nullification field around them which make them immune to player abilities. Is that worth revisiting?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to look for flaws. I actually rather like the core idea of this Workshop. I'm more trying to dig into the implementation details, since this has the potential to be pretty neat if it affects all the things it could potentially affect.

When I did defection sortie 3-4 days ago, solo with trin, IT DID NOT HEAL the defectors.
I had 4 die on me, thanks to split squads and stupid pathmaking before I finally finished the mission.

[XxGekasxX]

NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions

 

Stop crying about the 500s

[TheLexiConArtist]

17 minutes ago, IronHair said:

When I did defection sortie 3-4 days ago, solo with trin, IT DID NOT HEAL the defectors.
I had 4 die on me, thanks to split squads and stupid pathmaking before I finally finished the mission.

There's an unfortunate buggy interaction I recall with Kavor Defectors - if the Blessing DR buff is still active on them, then re-casting will not heal; it just updates the buff timer, making you have to wait all over again until you can toss out new healing.

11 minutes ago, XxGekasxX said:

NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions

 

Stop crying about the 500s

You think that means they're necessarily going to increase it? Entire feedback threads from DE themselves are frequently disregarded wholesale.

'Subject to change' is just as likely to mean they reduce it even more, if they do even bother to change it in any way.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

3 hours ago, XxGekasxX said:

NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions

 

Stop crying about the 500s

Silence solves nothing, it just proves how complacent people are to such a foolish change. People should be posting to guide DE towards a better direction, the fact that they're even considering a flat number nerf shows how nefarious the intention could be. You'd do the same if your favorite school, weapons or Warframes were up for unnecessary nerfs, I've no doubt.

[NekroArts]

3 hours ago, GOOBER__LORD said:

1) It enables squishy frames the opportunity to fight against higher level enemies who dish out more damage. A few seconds of invulnerability isn't that OP. ie go take a banshee to fight a level 5 Kuva Lich and you will see what I mean. The invincibility nerf of the dash actually narrows the amount of frames viable for use against enemies that hit hard (lvl 5 Kuva Lich etc).

 

5 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Found a bald-faced lie.  The def heal, the affinity range, and the insta revives are the only useful things in the school.  The affinity range usually doesn't matter and is vastly inferior to flares when it does, and the revives are limited and not important given OP void mode anyway.  If the heal's gone, the school outside of the waybounds is gone, including the growing shield which is too small to stop a lot of AoE and straight up doesn't block even a lot of non-AoE.

 

This is why I'm so convinced you guys blow the nerf way more out of proportion than it is. The workshop is focused on the defense target not us; we will still be able to get the 60% heal and invulnerability for ourselves, yet there's a good chunk of people treating it as if it affects all mission types.