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Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets


[DE]Rebecca

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While we are talking about healing and defensive effects, i thinks it's time to rework trinity.

 

Considering Trinity's 1 is useless compared to her 4, constant need to press 2 on enemies and so on makes her like old prerework Nekros, when he was used only to spam 3.

Trinity's 1 and 2 could be Equinox/Harrow aura styles, so enemies killed within radius of this aura (Night form Eq 4 style) would release wave of health for 1 and mana for 2 for entire squad within range (effect of current Trinity's 2), maybe without stun and percent damage (who even kills with this damage, everyone would still use guns to finish off the affected target, so they wouldn't have to go EV minus continuty losing duration on 3 and 4). It would allow Trinity to do some actions other from spamming, including her in ninja-tenno gameplay. And her 4 would still be "oh shi..." button with same effect.

Yes, it is distinguishes from Harrow, as his auras requre players to do egoistic actions in terms of killing enemies for mana restoration only for themselves and in the same time requre Harrow to do damage to heal self and others. As Harrow is balanced between protective and aggressive buffs with his unique mechanics, Trinity would still be completely protective support, but with possibility to use guns and melee instead of skill spamming.

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Well, that change on Vazarin kinda frustrating. That was the main reason that I was always using Vazarin (MR27). Kinda sad now, you pretty much have 1 school to use now, all the other aren't really useful except for very specific situation.

 

EDIT:
I dunno if its still the case, but you weren't able to heal Defense objective with vazarin in the void.

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On 2020-04-04 at 8:03 AM, Ed.Rivera1999 said:

as far as i'm aware, it only doesn't work on the op-links, but it does work on defense objectives like warframe cryopod, excavators, etc.

protective dash dont seem to like orokin cryopods as the pod standing upright has a weird hitbox that dashing into dont usly work as it dont heal or sheild

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also if they remove the protective dash invunarblility there goes sustaining the target for a price in high lvls (sortie if you dont dash the item gets one shotted but you need to kill the enimys to progress so stalemate situation but your burning energy with each dash so you have to stop and then the enimys will get you and while you are being sent back to frame destroy the pod) want a example kuva lich targeting the cryopod = you fail as 3/4 hp per shot without the ability to try to scrape through

 if whole squad diches you in a defence mission at 2 seconds on the exctract / battle screen well i hope you didnt get anything you wanted out of the mission as if you fail to defend by yourself you get mission failure = no rewards but with protective dash you may win sure you blink heal the target but you do need to actuly fight to progress so made the task hard but not impossible

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Agreeing with everyone else here, those buffs are fantastic for low level missions but completely worthless at anything above level 20 or 30.  It needs to be scaling, not just a low flat number. 500 heal over 5 seconds  is worthless when enemies do thousands of damage per shot.

This is the excavator problem all over again..

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Spoiler
On 2020-04-03 at 4:05 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:
  1.  

Heal Source

 Normal effect

Effect on all types of static Defendable objects (Cryopods, Excavators, etc)
NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions

How does this already work on the live build? 

Gara - Mending Splinters

3 HP per sec for each active splinter

Fine as is.

As is 

Hildryn - Haven

500 Max Shields

80% faster Shield recharge

Fine as is, will inherit the Normal effect behaviour.

On live does nothing 

Trinity - Blessing

Up to 100% HP and Shield restore

Previously did nothing. Now, will Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

On live does nothing 

Equinox - Mend

25 Shields for each enemy killed

Burst heal based on how much damage was dealt

Notes: Since the heal amount is based on player damage, the numbers are astronomical which will lead to imbalances outside our goal here. 

Previously did nothing. Now, Allow the Shields component to work and heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack.

Does not affect (health nor shield)

Vazarin - Protective Dash

5 seconds invulnerability

60% Heal over 5 seconds

No invulnerability

Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Works at full effect

Khora - Venari

Heal for 50 hp/sec

Fine as is. Will return functionality that kicked this whole Workshop off.

 

We will be returning the functionality it had before

Hydroid - Curative Undertow

Heals 30% hp every 1.5 secs when ally stands on it

Previously did nothing. Heal for 100 per 1.5 sec

On live does nothing

Harrow - Penance

Heals allies for a % of damage dealt

Notes: Similar to Equinox, very hard to balance for this since it’s based on damage dealt. 

Heals are capped up to 50 per.

On live does nothing

Oberon - Renew

125 burst heal

50 health per sec

Previously did nothing. Now, Fine as is and will inherit this behaviour. 

On live does nothing

Garuda - Blood Siphon

Heals by % of missing health

Doesn’t apply, for flavor we think this shouldn’t.

On live does nothing

Inaros - Scarab Swarm

Heals for damage dealt by Swarm Projectile divided by allies in range.

Fine as is, will inherit this behaviour. 

On live does nothing

Nidus - Ravenous

Heal allies standing on it for 20 HP per second

Fine as is, will inherit this behaviour. 

On live does nothing

Wisp - Vitality Mote

Increase max hp by 300 and heal for 30 hp per second

Fine as is, will inherit this behaviour. 

On live does nothing

Volt - Capacitance

Grants shields based on 3% of damage dealt

Capped at 250 shields, no overshields

On live does nothing

Titania - Passive 

4 Heal Per Second for 20 Seconds,

Fine as is

On live does nothing 

Sancti Magistar

Heals for damage dealt in an AoE

Heal for up to 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack with other players. Going from a burst to Heal over Time. 

Going from burst to heal over time

Ancient Healer

Heal for 100 HP every 20 seconds

Fine as is

As is

Rejuvenation Aura

Heal 3 HP per sec

Fine as is

As is

Arcane Pulse

60% Chance to heal for 150 HP when picking up a globe with a 15 sec cooldown.

Fine as is

As is

Damage Reduction

Damage Reduction Source

Normal effect

Effect on all types of static Defendable objects (Cryopods, Excavators, etc)
NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions.

How does this already work on live? 

Trinity - Blessing

50% Damage reduction unmodded

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

On live does nothing 

Mirage - Total Eclipse

Grants 75% Damage reduction to allies

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

On live does nothing 

Titania - Thorns

50% damage redirected to enemies

Fine as is

On live does nothing

Gara - Splinter Storm

70% Damage reduction

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

Works at full effect

Ember - Immolated Radiance

50% of Immolates Damage reduction applies to allies

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

On live does nothing 

Baruuk - Desolate Hands

80% Damage reduction

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

On live does nothing 

Harrow - Warding Thurible

40% Damage Reduction

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

Works at full effect

Nezha - Warding Halo

Absorbs 90% of damage

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

On live does nothing 

 

Looks great! Keep up the good work! ❤️

One thing, could we get these ability interactions threaded into the ability descriptions? I like the tips but some of this information seems like it needs a more up-front display option in game. Going back to the UI workshop, it would be nice to have more robust ability descriptions, like their own page, to make it easier to understand the abilities as a whole. This could easily be more than one menu deep in the arsenal or something, but it would be preferable to having the majority of useful ability description information bound to a monodirectional tabbed list of single sentences.

Not to say that the tooltips aren't useful! Just that I hope it's being used as "the place to get advice on how to use this frame better" and not "the only place you can figure out was an ability actually does". At current, it's a mixed bag, and I hope we can get to where the statistical information (like the above table) is in the ability description, and the tips tell you ideas on how to improve or use those abilities.

TL/DR:

Please keep the statistical information for abilities in the arsenal/description. Not the tips. Please use the tips menu for actual advice on when/how to use abilities and how to improve them.

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5 hours ago, Ecclessia said:

While we are talking about healing and defensive effects, i thinks it's time to rework trinity.

 

Considering Trinity's 1 is useless compared to her 4, constant need to press 2 on enemies and so on makes her like old prerework Nekros, when he was used only to spam 3.

Trinity's 1 and 2 could be Equinox/Harrow aura styles, so enemies killed within radius of this aura (Night form Eq 4 style) would release wave of health for 1 and mana for 2 for entire squad within range (effect of current Trinity's 2), maybe without stun and percent damage (who even kills with this damage, everyone would still use guns to finish off the affected target, so they wouldn't have to go EV minus continuty losing duration on 3 and 4). It would allow Trinity to do some actions other from spamming, including her in ninja-tenno gameplay. And her 4 would still be "oh shi..." button with same effect.

Yes, it is distinguishes from Harrow, as his auras requre players to do egoistic actions in terms of killing enemies for mana restoration only for themselves and in the same time requre Harrow to do damage to heal self and others. As Harrow is balanced between protective and aggressive buffs with his unique mechanics, Trinity would still be completely protective support, but with possibility to use guns and melee instead of skill spamming.

Or Trinity could release a periodic pulse of healing energy like an Ancient Healer with her 1, which could also increase bleedout time by 50%. But I think this isn't the proper post to discuss this. Try searching for a rework thread.

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On 2020-04-03 at 5:05 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We’re doing a deeper review on abilities that heal Defense Targets that we can speak to in the coming days

It would be nice to see lockers, excavators, and tennopods get adjustments in the mist of all this gunfire, the computers and left over guns and parts/pickups were to extend or help on reload, i know in destiny 2 you can perform a dodge to reload quickly as a hunter class, so in ourgame we could do a front roll and work on other ways to enhance shooting and aiming, wanna see players walking backwards, and crouching without worrying about their load-outs, so they can focus on buying and building weapons, the veterans can get otherstuff for their operators, lemme explain:

MAGIC SHIELD & REPAIRS 

excavators drop in randomly; they are optional and contain data to hack, so players are not just pushing canisters in, with increasing difficulty,  kuva combatan occasional parts to break quickly, knights to fight, shatter, or nightwave enemies, infested pods, mimics in other videogames could also take some treasurechest and make them immortal or elemental requirement, prior proctype or fight, you can picture this clam enemy like a box or yokai, and ghost much like the moon has floaters, theres a good deal of quick ways to get enemies guarding excavators and docking ships, tanks, and vehicles swarming so its not that a powerful players will just rape with the exploding bow, a defensive barrier for enemies and the machine or area to require some shuting down like football, this can make rescue interesting, generators recover or are repaired by robots and electricity, players abilities are siphoned by some gases and areas, a few lichens and siphon blue and white guys with mohawks and hairdo will  yield kit-gun, kit-bow,

decorations to outfit the Orbiter and pets/robot things/"upgrades", or operator style rewards for taking scans,

participation charges / weather ambiance changes / new enemies / negative mod pickups which are infested might be cool if temporary to teach players to not pickup everything/to advoid, and crouch more some could be heavier or have enhancements, require dashing or to be aimed at.

and drops might cause temporary ephemerals from winning, taking damge, procs, parazon, and walking or sprinting so a sniper gets a thingy when hes being a hot-shot, eyes glow deep, better minimap, zoom becomes mroe interesting, can smell or track some new treasures and enemies appear, likewise these drops could be stuff from space like rail-jack to refresh the lockers and caches and mission rewards on earth and each planet if players are just not rushing to leave, they can explore the uses of scanning and hacking doors, redchest and other lockers could be shoot at to open them, they dont just have to be touched or frisked lockers.

lastthingy" -------------still hate anything parazon and operator/warframe, transference & tenno leveling is broken and lenses are horrible, anything attachments is complicated to explain to new players, relay & pvp updates? syndicate and bounties ? at least there should be a few pertaining enemies and targets which can be temporary.

 

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On 2020-04-03 at 5:05 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Gara - Mending Splinters

Gara will need ways to cast magic quickly, her attacks are expensive and come from nothing, energy packets won't be enough to make sense, and most of her abilities are useless, occasionally she can defend or enhance other players with the glass teeth or use a slow barricade but enemies can get right through it,

Her 4th for example should be able to get dirty with blood, with the rain, and snow/gauss/blurr effects from the war effects of bullets penetrating each barricade glass shattered should recover and cause knockback which blow up enemies getting annoying, get back, and you shoot through from the inside and outside for different ways to enhance the shoots, reloading sucks anyways for all weapons, the least we can do is give some weapons a chance to cause explosions, aoe, sprinting is a great thing to have when you are empty if its enhanced and you have extra energy or shields to spare like the old channeling.

- each, to at least make her next kunnai or sword attack(s) smooth or free, i dont like how she has only one swing, it cannot be enhanced like the excalibur or reinforced to be mad interesting she should have access   a free-cast,  help reload/teamates, melee-enhance, some trap weapons, and cammuflage for low HP.

she could teleport and blowup an enemy like DBZ if the finishers allow it, or at least petrify/enhance/guard/and destroy, ephemeral procs determine many abilities bonuses for no energy and health/shields to have a special effect, at least reload could have a free ding thing,

since gara is from cetus originally there could be a few new operator glammour, and bounties her old stuff would look awesome on enemies to use mimics and glass weapons are very cool to ge thitby or trapped by.

 crouching produces a temporary shield like the ahamkara from destiny, but we can make it so its a parry or additional, recast sucks, and desirable transferance rewards for other warframes other than umbra ASAP. I hate seing that, the same problem with the yellow balls and iddle warmachines need at least to give the players a reason to use the reload button and to transfer more freely, Gara should serve her tenno with a sawt/glass shield(SWAT TEAM) or free revive+dash powerup, walking/sprinting is enhancements could come from standing and a trigger when going near ur warframe or other players warframes, excavators can be shoot at, minning gun and spear refined for combat. 

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Wisp sounds like she will be extremely good at defending objectives now.

Considering her motes last pretty much forever until you recast more than 6 of them, she can just dump her healing motes on the objectives (something most Wisp players already do anyway) and voilà, 80hp/s with a high strenght build for the whole mission.

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10 minutes ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

Wisp sounds like she will be extremely good at defending objectives now.

Considering her motes last pretty much forever until you recast more than 6 of them, she can just dump her healing motes on the objectives (something most Wisp players already do anyway) and voilà, 80hp/s with a high strenght build for the whole mission.

remember, it will not stack.

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11 minutes ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

Wisp sounds like she will be extremely good at defending objectives now.

Considering her motes last pretty much forever until you recast more than 6 of them, she can just dump her healing motes on the objectives (something most Wisp players already do anyway) and voilà, 80hp/s with a high strenght build for the whole mission.

Can we make some motes change so  that maybe some minor effects chain when near other team-mates, for example you could have them be contageous or altered by crouching, reloading, and bullet jump because they are common, if they take damage they can decan't, the problem is that the stations become useless to players after they pick-up the bonuses, and are only found when looking at the minimap, so some tethering and chaining might be cool to create a teleportation or special use if the players can figure that out, this reminds me of astrologian and blackmage warp in final fantasy 11, the cublicles and shapes could depend, taking damage makes them release screams, which could affect their elemental, trines, and ninjitsus, if you know am talking about the sephirots and hexagrams, or watever, barook has some really good designs, but i dont use him because i feel like hes lacking a few enhancements for his team mates, and aerial stuff, i dont like long animations and casting times so i choose guns (MESA,UMBRA, Operator, AMP, ) also operators and pets transference is not affected by her goblets and trifcks.fffffffffffffffffcats

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If all heals are fixed values instead of percentages, healing the objective becomes a sort of early game crutch. That is, while it's extremely powerful in the beginning, at higher levels it does basically nothing, and so becomes a habit that you will need to break yourself of. Is this intentional?

Pretty much all of the current "Top Shelf" methods of healing or reducing damage on defense objectives are listed as getting significant reductions in power. It seems like for higher level missions, players are going to be pushed towards pre-made groups with optimal/meta frame balance in order to be able to succeed. This would be self reinforcing: as more people shift to pre-making groups, fewer will be queuing up for public matchmaking, leading more to pre-make their groups, etc. I find the public matchmaker extremely convenient and fun, and would hate to be all but forced into spending ~5 minutes in recruiting chat any time I wanted to run a defense arbitration or sortie MobDef. Removing my ability to unilaterally heal the objective with Vaz Dash or the Sancti Magister, while "balanced," seems like it's removing a problem that doesn't really hurt anyone in order to replace it with a burden that drags on everyone.

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2 minutes ago, MikeTheFool said:

If all heals are fixed values instead of percentages, healing the objective becomes a sort of early game crutch. That is, while it's extremely powerful in the beginning, at higher levels it does basically nothing, and so becomes a habit that you will need to break yourself of. Is this intentional?

Pretty much all of the current "Top Shelf" methods of healing or reducing damage on defense objectives are listed as getting significant reductions in power. It seems like for higher level missions, players are going to be pushed towards pre-made groups with optimal/meta frame balance in order to be able to succeed. This would be self reinforcing: as more people shift to pre-making groups, fewer will be queuing up for public matchmaking, leading more to pre-make their groups, etc. I find the public matchmaker extremely convenient and fun, and would hate to be all but forced into spending ~5 minutes in recruiting chat any time I wanted to run a defense arbitration or sortie MobDef. Removing my ability to unilaterally heal the objective with Vaz Dash or the Sancti Magister, while "balanced," seems like it's removing a problem that doesn't really hurt anyone in order to replace it with a burden that drags on everyone.

am worried about the NPC enemies and how they can help their squadrons, or effectively recover some robots or weapons they use basic tactics and numbers not gonna work forever, i think its good to get some mage types like the ancient shamans and tileset adjustments to keep the enemies interesting with atleast all the bounties and objectives being more rewarding with kitguns, kitswords, croskits, bowgen, frisbee swords, and kitbows.

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1 hour ago, HolySeraphin said:

Or Trinity could release a periodic pulse of healing energy like an Ancient Healer with her 1, which could also increase bleedout time by 50%. But I think this isn't the proper post to discuss this. Try searching for a rework thread.

it totally is, i really dont understand what is good about being a trinity player, i seen her ability videos, and just felt uninpressed, there is no defensive stuff or enhancements, happening compared to playing mesa or umbra, if she could at least have some transferense skill and more passive than other warframes, then its a viable tank/healer., and most warframes should drop a glyph or color palette when they are ranked up or leveled until they add a few new passive traits and abilities to swap, it should be good to get more teleportations and healing updates to make trinity more appealing, like i said i dont play her or even partied with any of those, it seems boring or short lived, so i would like to see recasting and crouchign feature sbe improved that she gets channeling and aerial or wall-latch dominant, this way she can atleast throw in a rainbow, and few weaves to make slam attacks less sticky, or interesting, these are just some quick ideas. 

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On 2020-04-06 at 10:43 AM, Navarchus said:

I fully understand nerfing the Invulnerability of Vazarin, I would have definitely preferred it to be dmg reduction % rather than total vulnerability but.. You're removing the healing

To be plain, anything less than invuln removes the healing already for most intents and purposes.  The healing doesn't apply unless the target has taken no damage for several seconds.

DE:  Why do you think people even use Vazarin dash?  It certainly isn't to heal themselves or allies except perhaps when Inaros is involved, there are many faster and better ways to heal frames with only a few hundred health, and that's even if the frame they're playing doesn't have healing abilities.  Even if I wanted to use it to heal teammates, as often as not they're moving around so erratically that they're hard to target even if it weren't with a fixed length dash, and that erratic movement goes double for someone who is low on health and concerned about being downed.

If you want people to care about that amount of frame or pet healing, you need to nerf pizzas out of existence.  Seriously.  They need to stop being a thing anyway, they totally screw over resource balance.  You also need to get rid of or nerf things like the melee heavy attack healing mod.  One slot on a melee weapon that is already ludicrously strong compared to other weapons types, for free, high, instant healing with minimal risk in most situations?  Easy choice.

Barring that, healing is easy to come by, so prot dash is pointless.  Heck, it's right there in the name, Protective dash, and you want to remove invuln, not even give DR, and lower the healing to an amount that doesn't matter past level 1?  Deuces on that affinity tree.  Vazarin has nothing else of note.  The radial shield is cute but buggy and lets things through, and it's a paragon example of passive gameplay considering you're making people literally sit somewhere with one button pressed down and nothing else going on for 30s straight.  The wider dash doesn't matter at all when it's useless anyway.  The directional charge shield is lol?  Any situation I've got my OP out, that shield isn't going to help even a little because damage is coming from all directions.

Bye bye Vazarin!  Monkey's-pawed to oblivion.

On 2020-04-06 at 6:08 PM, mikakor said:

remember, it will not stack.

That one will.  Go back and read it again.  Only some of the things don't stack with other effects like themselves, namely anything that does the already pointless 100/s x 5s heal.

On 2020-04-06 at 2:54 PM, _Anise_ said:

Ivara stealth arrow un-nerf too please ? :3

 

(context it used to be able to hide defensible objects)

Only ones that are operatives.  It still does that.  Shhhhh!

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1 hour ago, HolySeraphin said:

Or Trinity could release a periodic pulse of healing energy like an Ancient Healer with her 1, which could also increase bleedout time by 50%. But I think this isn't the proper post to discuss this. Try searching for a rework thread.

yes that sounds decent, to have an additional aoe, but i dont play trinity, so also am a DPS so i think she needs more weapons and abilities or tricks, thats why i wrote all that stuf fon wall-latch, crouching and other enhancements so shes at least a viable healer or tank who is useful even without energy, this way a player can latch to a wall to recover ammo/energy or quickly reload their weapons/secondary? i wrote more on the fisrt post. Then the sowrd or watever starts glowing, which allowf for more healing and AOE pulses, chanelling, and other upgradesl

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On 2020-04-03 at 5:43 PM, NekroArts said:

Maybe. What Scarlet Spear showed me is that Limbo has his own flaw where he has to recast Cataclysm thus leaving the defense open for a brief moment. That brief moment can result in the defense objective taking a good chunk of damage. If the wave last longer than that of a modded Limbo you have to leave the defense objective vulnerable.

nah man your logical 👍

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1 hour ago, SnakeBadger said:

it totally is, i really dont understand what is good about being a trinity player, i seen her ability videos, and just felt uninpressed, there is no defensive stuff or enhancements, happening compared to playing mesa or umbra, if she could at least have some transferense skill and more passive than other warframes, then its a viable tank/healer., and most warframes should drop a glyph or color palette when they are ranked up or leveled until they add a few new passive traits and abilities to swap, it should be good to get more teleportations and healing updates to make trinity more appealing, like i said i dont play her or even partied with any of those, it seems boring or short lived, so i would like to see recasting and crouchign feature sbe improved that she gets channeling and aerial or wall-latch dominant, this way she can atleast throw in a rainbow, and few weaves to make slam attacks less sticky, or interesting, these are just some quick ideas. 

it's actually pretty obvious that you don't play Trinity, as she can be a very strong healer + energy *@##$. built properly, she gives a #*!%ton of damage reduction to herself + her team, with on top opf that being able to give a lot of energy to her team, and all of it is pretty fluid. you watched really bad designed videos.

i can share you my build if you want.

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