Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets

[Yoruno]

Personally i use vazarin more for the clutch invul than the heal, defense objectives don't regen hp unless they haven't taken damage for a while to begin with.

But now that its been flipped to a measly 500 heal over 5 seconds without invulnurabilty on static armor-scaled objectives against dynamically scaling enemies that hits like a truck... Have you guys seen how fast sentients melt an unprotected oplinks in 5th murex?

Please DE, consider using more soft + hard values for fine-tuning abilities and stuffs across early to late game. It works.

Even without invulnerability, "100/200/300/400 + (1/2/3/4% of max hp) heal over 5 seconds on objectives" doesn't sound as weak or gamebreaking does it.

[Anduvriel]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Good example, but playing a kura survival for that long isn't intended by DE. If you do theres planty of frames that can counter dps enemies though CC'ng. Healing anything at that lv is mostly redundant.

Yeah i know, limbo plus nekros and you negate just about everything you need to care about in this node. The point is different here

My point is, that poor trin or just anything else for that matter that would like to contribute to keeping the target alive, being useful using what they propose in here in a 2h kuva survi is utterly uncapable of doing so. And in 20 minute they are not needed as well, cause than you dont really need to heal the target at all. So what is the point of that whole remake? Who and how will gain just about anything from this? I see only one thing: all those people that didnt want to take limbo/frost etc. and took vazarin will now not be able to.

For me those changes can be summarised in one sentence "we are going to destroy vazarin (so dont bother with this school) and all of the other changes are for lunaro (wrote that way so you dont have to read them at all)" 

[CaptainMinty]

Ah yes, one of my main reasons for using Vazarin is getting kicked out the door and replaced with something akin to a banana peel that doesn't cause people to slip and fall over. Useless is what I mean. Let's continue to narrow down the usefulness of Focus schools while we're at it. Keep Zenurik as the best school for all time. It's a shame that Vazarin at this point is going to only be good for giving the Operator more health. Which is an unlockable passive, thus making Vazarin a, level and never go back to it school.

Focus needs to be reworked again, because this is just laughable. Operators already have to fight for some semblance of usefulness. And currently the most popular way is to give players more energy for their frames. Nice. When one of the best parts about going into Operator mode is having a full fledged aimbot that has unlimited ammo, something isn't right. The Operator needs buffs. Not nerfs.

[Vivaelvirmo]

Honestly, I sometimes can not agree what DE does with the game changes. Why change a frames ability because it does his job good ? take in consideration limbo , his unique ability that does a good job, now gets a nerf and people stopped playing him for this event.  Before this event people were not playing that much this frame . With this event people realized that this frame is good and it actually give a little fame for this warframe. I can not understand why change permanently a frame because of an temporal event . I am sorry DE 

[BiancaRoughfin]

On 2020-04-03 at 6:05 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Vazarin - Protective Dash	5 seconds invulnerability 60% Heal over 5 seconds	No invulnerability Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack	Works at full effect

 

Oh great, go on, give us Vazarin Mains even less reasons to stick to this trash of a Focus School, you guys already introduced Magus Repair which heals for 25% Max health per second in a 30m area and that should have been some Vazarin Perk from start and gives all other Focus Schools the ability to heal.

Mending Unity is crap, because it only affects Skills that rely on Affinity Range which are so few that its not worth it.

Mending Soul is very limited for the long run. The old Focus one at least could continuously stack Revive charges by casting the Vazarin skill every time it charged.

Guardian Shell is crap because it only protects from attacks you are turned towards, doesnt protect from beam weapons and has a very small health pool.

Guardian Blast is crap because it consumes a huge amount of energy to give a miserable 160 Shield at max level.

Sonic Dash is Crap because the stun wears off by the time your dash ends.

Void Regen is Crap because it only heals your Operator, it could very well have been what Magus Repair does. There is already a Way-Bound that grants Operator regeneration and its far better to just use Magus Replenish that has 30% chane to heal for 100% health when Void Dashing.

Void Aegis is crap because it has to expand to protect the area, your teammates and defense objectives are still hit by AoE wile in there and it grants no benefit for your teammates to wanna stick inside the bubble.

I wont even mention the Way-Bound passives...

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Oh great, go on, give us Vazarin Mains even less reasons to stick to this trash of a Focus School, you guys already introduced Magus Repair which heals for 25% Max health per second in a 30m area and that should have been some Vazarin Perk from start and gives all other Focus Schools the ability to heal.

Mending Unity is crap, because it only affects Skills that rely on Affinity Range which are so few that its not worth it.

Mending Soul is very limited for the long run. The old Focus one at least could continuously stack Revive charges by casting the Vazarin skill every time it charged.

Guardian Shell is crap because it only protects from attacks you are turned towards, doesnt protect from beam weapons and has a very small health pool.

Guardian Blast is crap because it consumes a huge amount of energy to give a miserable 160 Shield at max level.

Sonic Dash is Crap because the stun wears off by the time your dash ends.

Void Regen is Crap because it only heals your Operator, it could very well have been what Magus Repair does. There is already a Way-Bound that grants Operator regeneration and its far better to just use Magus Replenish that has 30% chane to heal for 100% health when Void Dashing.

Void Aegis is crap because it has to expand to protect the area, your teammates and defense objectives are still hit by AoE wile in there and it grants no benefit for your teammates to wanna stick inside the bubble.

I wont even mention the Way-Bound passives...

Very good points!

[QQQQMkII]

What about Unairu - Void Crystalist?  80% DR for allies.

 

On live it does nothing to static defendables, but works on eidilon lures, rescue targets, defectors and the like.

[Uan91]

Why do you keep to balance the game like if there Is no higher level after 20? 

Why should I use ant other school besides zenurik? 

 

[_Anise_]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

How would nulls target and pathfind the objective, when the objective is invisible. Not all factions have null abilitys. Adding steath to a def target creates more problems than the "demand". Since the AI will need to be modified to take account of the possibility of steath objective.

I joined excavation as ivara on public so I would get a group, because leveling and wanting to get stuff at the same time, other guy bailed on me at 250 I spent the rest of the game powering up extractors, they would extract around 30 then explode and die, then I had to run to a new one and start over, that is way better gameplay than just letting the stealth arrow work?

as for pathfinding how do enemies path find to me when I am sitting invisible in survival ? they walk right to me all the time.

whats the alternative? delete the stupid noise arrow and/or just add a cupid/heal arrow ? (I seriously don't hate the idea)

[CopperBezel]

Oh hey, question! Will this affect Sentinel healing? Right now to my knowledge only Trinity can heal sentinels (while everyone can heal beast pets.)

[SyBuhr]

Wow, DE!

Good April Fools Joke! Ha-Ha!

...

Right? You all aren't seriously nerfing things that don't need to be nerfed simply to pad out an event that is tedious and grindy, right?

 

[SpicyDinosaur]

I guess it is what it is. I'll keep playing until all these changes pile up to the point I can no longer enjoy the game. Not to engage in histrionics, but it is certainly getting there if these are implemented.

 

Right now I'm only playing because I've invested way too much time and money on this game to leave. That can change though.

[TaigenRaine]

So if this workshop is here to actually get feedback and not just announce intentions and implement them regardless of what the community wants, here is what these abilities -should- look like to be effective at all mission levels:  (anything not mentioned is fine how you have it)

Trinity - Blessing

Between 1% and 6% Heath per Second based on ability strength for between 2s and 9s based on ability duration.

Equinox - Mend

25 shields per enemy killed, Healing capped at 6% per second.

Vazarin - Protective Dash

5 seconds of invulnerability and 30% Healing over 5 seconds - Add a 5s 'cooldown' after the ability is done to prevent 100% invulnerability uptime.

Hydroid - Curative Undertow

Between 1% and 6% Heath per Second based on ability strength

Harrow - Penance

Capped at 6% per second.

Garuda - Blood Siphon

Should work because consistency > 'Flavor'.  It's space magic, blood can heal pods if it can heal robots.  Capped at 6% per second otherwise identical to how it works on allies.

Volt - Capacitance

No cap, 3% is fine, overshields should be fine too.

Sancti Magistar

Capped at 6% per second

Damage Reduction:

50% cap seems alright but would have to see how it turns out in testing.  You are going to test this... right... before releasing it... test it maybe with warframe partners in a closed beta stage?... or some other group of testers who actually play the game and not because just because they are paid to?

Now lets talk Nullifiers.  What are they going to do with these abilities.  Are they going to negate them on contact with the objective?  With the frame casting them?  both?  Some consistency here would be nice.  On that topic, what about Frost/Gara/Limbo.  Should it really just take a single second of exposure for a nullifier bubble to take these down?  If this was a warframe ability and we were 'trivializing' an enemies abilities like this, the nerf hammer would have fallen a long time ago.  I do think nullifiers should protect against offensive abilities just as perfectly as they currently do.. but on duration abilities and other more 'permanent' abilities, it should instead do a fair amount of damage to things like snowglobe/vitrify/iron skin/ warding halo and drain the duration out of cataclysm and duration based buffs.  Abilities that are not duration or damage based (like oberon's buffs for instance) should instead have a grace period of a few seconds before they are dispelled, with a corresponding visual cue, like maybe the buff icon flashing red.

For the TLDR version - any ability that isn't already flat healing should not be turned into a joke of 500 per second when most of the time enemy DPS is going to be many many times that.  Vazarin - if it needs nerfed at all - can't be made completely useless, it still needs to be percentage based and the invulnerable time is unique and should stay in some way.  Either that or take the time to rework the whole focus system and make operators actually useful outside of dashing across the level and energy batteries.

[BiancaRoughfin]

36 minutes ago, TaigenRaine said:

Vazarin - Protective Dash

5 seconds of invulnerability and 30% Healing over 5 seconds - Add a 5s 'cooldown' after the ability is done to prevent 100% invulnerability uptime.

Its already limited by the amount of energy your Operator has, it doesnt need a Cooldown. Also you are talking about a Skill that depends on the player successfully dashing through a target that is bouncing around like a grasshoper so this means that if you miss, you wont heal crap and will have to wait another 5 seconds to try in use it again IF you have the energy for it.

[TaigenRaine]

1 minute ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Its already limited by the amount of energy your Operator has, it doesnt need a Cooldown. Also you are talking about a Skill that depends on the player successfully dashing through a target that is bouncing around like a grasshoper so this means that if you miss, you wont heal crap and will have to wait another 5 seconds to try in use it again IF you have the energy for it.

Was imagining it as a cooldown on the target, not the ability.  So if you missed, you could just try again immediately.  Also this is only for static defense objectives, Vazarin definitely should not be nerfed on allies.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

5 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

I joined excavation as ivara on public so I would get a group, because leveling and wanting to get stuff at the same time, other guy bailed on me at 250 I spent the rest of the game powering up extractors, they would extract around 30 then explode and die, then I had to run to a new one and start over, that is way better gameplay than just letting the stealth arrow work?

as for pathfinding how do enemies path find to me when I am sitting invisible in survival ? they walk right to me all the time.

whats the alternative? delete the stupid noise arrow and/or just add a cupid/heal arrow ? (I seriously don't hate the idea)

Lv'ng with a stealth frame on excavation isnt the most efficient way, as you may know some frames are better or worse at different missions than others.

In survival the alarm is always on so they do know your around but if your solo they just remain in alert mode.

As for last comment why does her kit need a change, her design/role is for stealth not a healer or defender.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

13 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Oh great, go on, give us Vazarin Mains even less reasons to stick to this trash of a Focus School, you guys already introduced Magus Repair which heals for 25% Max health per second in a 30m area and that should have been some Vazarin Perk from start and gives all other Focus Schools the ability to heal.

Mending Unity is crap, because it only affects Skills that rely on Affinity Range which are so few that its not worth it.

Mending Soul is very limited for the long run. The old Focus one at least could continuously stack Revive charges by casting the Vazarin skill every time it charged.

Guardian Shell is crap because it only protects from attacks you are turned towards, doesnt protect from beam weapons and has a very small health pool.

Guardian Blast is crap because it consumes a huge amount of energy to give a miserable 160 Shield at max level.

Sonic Dash is Crap because the stun wears off by the time your dash ends.

Void Regen is Crap because it only heals your Operator, it could very well have been what Magus Repair does. There is already a Way-Bound that grants Operator regeneration and its far better to just use Magus Replenish that has 30% chane to heal for 100% health when Void Dashing.

Void Aegis is crap because it has to expand to protect the area, your teammates and defense objectives are still hit by AoE wile in there and it grants no benefit for your teammates to wanna stick inside the bubble.

I wont even mention the Way-Bound passives...

You are aware that this is just for defence targets, and most heals are getting same treatment on defence targets.

[BlacKcuD]

Healing objectives sounds awesome, albight a bit broken.

Really enjoying this kind of discussion and the possibilities this brings with it.

[sorcer3r]

Good to see dev time spend on such an important part of the game 😄

 

[Gibbs6022]

I Really don't understand Gara's change from 90% DR to 50%. Firstly this an extreme nerf giving a five fold increase in damage to the defense targets effect b Gara's 2. Secondly I found Gara to be balances with the other main defense frames frost and limbo. Before going on I'd like to point out that aside from scarlet spear the only high level defense type missions people are regularly rewarded for doing are either operatives instead of objects, or excavations so multi target defense should definitely be considered in the balancing of these frames for object defence. Gara can add DR to as many objective as she pleases but she only gets one barrier. This barrier requires enemies to be close to the objective in on order for it to have any substantial amount of health for higher level (lvl 60+ ish) enemies. This is balanced with frost because unlike frost she can't have multiple barriers, and her barrier setup is more than the push of a button, but in exchange she can dish out DR. This is balanced with Limbo becase while limbos cataclysim stasis combo is just a quick two button setup and leaves the target functionally invulnerable in many cases, he can only typically effect one target at a time.

[Lightning_Bloom]

The consistency is much appreciated, it always sucked having to consult the wiki any time I wanted to know what frames could and could not effect objectives. But with these changes, defense objectives are going to be even more trivial. The vazarin nerf was much needed, but limbo still makes the most effective strategy to completely ignore gameplay.

What if high level defense objectives had demolyst/demolisher units, such as those in disruption, who can resist abilities and deal a chunk of damage to the objective? Not complete destruction, but enough to make players actually engage in combat, or use more of a variety of abilities than simply phasing objectives out of existence with limbo's rift.

[(PSN)LoneWolf_001]

It's good to see a more proactive approach to fixing the interactions with an event as opposed to just hitting things with the NERF bat. (even if that was the first response)

[Flying_Scorpion]

Is this still happening? I wouldn't mind it. It would shake up the meta a little bit 🙂

[_Anise_]

noticed one that isn't in the original list of abilities, mag's Polarize restores allies shields, should that count ?

[Aisu9]

focus 3.0 when ? because at this rate Vazarin will not be usefull... and it's not like all others focus school are crap (not naramon because melee affinity farm and zenurik energy regen)
Just... damn it DE, if you detroy every little things that make a focus school usefull just detroy all of them and make one that give energy regen and everythings usefull, not something like Unairu (Damage redirection are you kinding me ? remember armor ? armor reduce redirected damage ? no you don't know ? because focus school have to be usefull in many situations Not completly useless outside eidolon hunt