Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets

[_Tormex_]

On 2020-04-03 at 5:39 PM, OceanDragon said:

This is not going to be a positive change. In warframe, we have powerful abilities that will trivialize these missions either way. These will be the best unless you ruin their functionality entirely. Trying to make other abilities similar, but significantly weaker won't change anything. Why go with a frame that has some utility, yet still has a chance to fail, when you can go with a frame that will ensure your success 100%?

Uh because playing limbo isn't as fun as playing Khora and I play video games to have fun. Not to find the most optimal path possible. So having 'less optimal' options is definitely a good thing.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

On 2020-04-10 at 12:52 AM, OwlingFrame said:

This is probably best overall change that could have come out of Scarlet Spear fiasco, and people actively manufacture dumbest reasons to complain.

 

I've never been more disappointed in this community.

So I'm guessing you only use DPS Warframes & Zenurik? I think it's safe to assume that you haven't played past level 20 of the star chart. This won't promote build diversity, this'll only cement the meta even further. Be disappointed, by all means, you won't have to worry about something you fail to understand.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

On 2020-04-03 at 2:44 PM, LordPantaloonsthe3rd said:

simple solution, get 2 limbo

Or rolling guard and natural talent

[HorstFoll]

Thanks to Vazarin dash i can bring any frame to Kuva Flood or Sortie 3 and still kinda enjoy the grind. Being forced to bring a certain frame just to avoid mission failure with randoms, because defense targets get one shot out of nothing, will not make the game more fun.

Warframe is unbalanced at all ends. If you know how you can cheese through any content. But who seriously cares about that? Is there actually anybody playing warframe over a longer period for the challenge? There are other games for that.

[Xenophil]

On 2020-04-10 at 5:25 PM, (XB1)WolfKingLeo said:

 i tried to heal the oplink few times without letting it take damage, didn't heal soo.... yeah

 

 

[(XBOX)WolfKingLeo]

27 minutes ago, Xenophil said:

 

didnt happen when I tried and how is it even a bug?
Also there have been hotfix for a few days and this video is old.

u need new proof

[NonBiri0816]

This is a terrible decision, it's just pushing players to create builds for no reason.

Getting rid of invulnerability means: You can't have warframes who can get easily killed in high level missions, go to a high level mission.

For example, when we enter into high level missions... when our shield is down, enemies can easily kill the warframe in one shot... 

What we used to do is: enter into void mode, get the warframe invulnerability, and then wait till the shield goes up again.

Now: we used the shield booster to get the shield up immediately so we don't get killed...Or we use rolling guard... Notice anything? 

YES... you force the players to use new build for no reason... And people just going to use warframes who are good at surviving instead of those warframe who are not 😞 Because less people use warframes who are bad at surviving, you WILL change those warframes who are good at surviving AGAIN..

See where this is going? 

One day, when they get tired...players are going to ask themselves: seriously is this even worth my time to invest? I put all my time on one focus ability, on one weapon...and it's getting nerfed.. People who don't play those will think: HA I don't play it anyway~~ Why did you guys even invest on it?~~    

And that's the part I am really really worried about. You need to reward those who spend lot of time on building the skills, not create any conflicts between the players, don't let the players feel tired to hear about your ideas.

[Unimira]

Healing abilities need to scale if they are going to be an alternative to defensive ones. Why not make them heal % of max hp?

Pity about Vazarin too, it allowed me to play defensive missions with more fun frames but guess it was not meant to be...

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

Vazarin is already extremely niche. Destroying that niche means we have even less of a reason to pick anything other than Zenurik.

Also, without the invulnerability, what are we supposed to do about this?

 

[-Zozzo-]

Unless the healing is percentage based, this whole 'rework' is useless.

Like what's gonna 100 hp/sec do when we're talking about a sortie 2/3 objective? Nothing that's what.

[(NSW)Drakeon8165]

On 2020-04-12 at 10:37 PM, Uhkretor said:

... I'm just going to throw it out there that you're not supposed to do super long missions...

 

Maybe now I'll start using Mending Strike to complement Gara's already effective defense capabilities.

That's not the reason people are complaining about this. 

Some people actually like doing those super long missions. It gives them something they like and they feel to be challenging (as challenging as Warframe enemies are...). 

Saying that is basically ignoring the existence of at least a third of the community.

[Uhkretor]

40 minutes ago, (NSW)Drakeon8165 said:

Saying that is basically ignoring the existence of at least a third of the community.

... I'm ok with it.

In fact, I already do it passively, like Corrosive Projection.

 

Still, my point stands:

On 2020-04-13 at 3:37 AM, Uhkretor said:

Maybe now I'll start using Mending Strike to complement Gara's already effective defense capabilities.

[(NSW)Gamer-Steve]

I can certainly agree that making healing abilities (Including Limbo's Rift Haven augment; All healing augments should be considered too that aren't already % based) heal based on percentage will prove more effective across higher levels.

 

That would be a universal change to healing abilities, and it would be a consistent system change when it comes to healing abilities as well. Future places and types of defense missions (Duviri Paradox's landscape comes to mind) would be easier to begin and implement based on the enemy or objective's exact leveling if it were able to scale up. Excavators finally have scaling HP now, so the healing should be able to keep up with that in order to maintain survivability.

When it comes to healing objectives with Vazarin and creating / choosing only certain builds, it would be a bit less all-in on Rolling guard or select other things if more options could be brought in the fold. I mentioned in my other post about adding / implementing waybound functionality to existing things in the focus schools, etc., so that could be a considerable idea. I'm sure there's plenty of players out there with huge focus reserves that could be put into that.

 

As for Vazarin's invulnerability, maybe there's another way to bring it back; If the enemy level is too high vs a minimum mission level or amount of time spent in-mission, Vazarin could activate the invulnerability like before.

Otherwise, if the target you want to heal has way too low HP vs it's max HP, then it could have a scaling duration of invulnerability until it's HP reaches above a certain threshold?

 

I sincerely hope that would be a fair way to change Vazarin, if it is meant to be changed. I'm just trying to think of ways to add and encourage build diversity depending on the mission at hand when it comes to that.

[(NSW)WesFX]

Tell us you are reworking the schools in the next year, or else this Vazarin nerf just seems foolish. And truly a slap in the face to your players that invested in it.

 

I'm a newer player, since nearly launch on Switch, and I've seen a lot of discourse over changes. I had very little context for most of them, so it often seemed like complaints over making an overpowered thing more reasonable.

With the context I have over this; yes it's overpowered in its old version and needs tuning, but no it is not being changed into a reasonable advantage.

And "advantage" is important to focus on here. I don't even need to discuss Energizing Dash's advantage, you know already. The focus school abilities that work are advantages, they feel powerful, they are part of forming an interesting loadout with frames and weapons, and they are fun.

This change means I will no longer experiment with frames and weapons when running Syndicate, Void Fissure, Cryotic runs, and other frequent missions involving defense objectives. I will use defence objective Warframes and I will be bored with these missions. I will become bored of Warframe quicker.

This is not a dramatization, just what is true for me.

[MacIntoc]

On 2020-04-15 at 3:21 PM, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

Vazarin is already extremely niche. Destroying that niche means we have even less of a reason to pick anything other than Zenurik.

Also, without the invulnerability, what are we supposed to do about this?

Limbo it. Just Limbo it.

[Proscriptor]

i'm worried about the game's rules getting too complicated and too important in and of themselves. constantly inventing caveats for something that was easily understood and thematically apt in it's original form really breaks the 4th wall.

with that said, practically, all the abilities will do the same thing, heal ~500hp in a short amount of time. with some variation that no one is bothered to learn. it's just not fun to deal with this dreary rulebook gore. 

a general solution would have been better. something like: warframe abilities can't heal inanimate and robotic objects. at all.

healers heal *players*, not defense objectives, and those players prevent the objective receiving damage, suffering hp loss themselves in the process. there's no need to allow healing of the actual objective. that just dilutes the action. objective receives too much damage? time to extract, and try a different tactic next time. 

other than that, some distinct, but again - general - mechanic could have been made for the purpose of healing, such as ordering sentinels and/or moas to stay put and act as repair drones (if they have the Repair Kit mod for example); this could shift the healing done from the sentinel's health pool to the objective's.

[MacIntoc]

7 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

with that said, practically, all the abilities will do the same thing

It's to encourage diversity. If everything does almost the same thing then there is no point in choosing one thing over another. Diversity.

[-CM-GoodDodge]

Yo DE. If you Touch Vazarin. I swear to god...

I have played Vazarin basically Only, since the dawn of it's existence. Been laughed at by many people for my choice many times but have stuck by it, tooth and nail.

Focus 1.0, The Crap all Heal and Instant Revive Stacks. I played it just for that, tempted by the Energy incentive of Zenurik. But being able to revive my Team mates at the touch of a button. Valkyr was a good frame back then before you killed her 4th, it's basically unusable with that stupid energy drain it has, almost like Grendal's current 4th, might wanna investigate that. Playing her and being able to tap the whole team back from basically a squad wipe Bombard attack was legendarily epic. Oh we can still do it Now, but you only get to do it twice.

Focus 2.0, The big thing that kept me interested wasn't actually the Dash, it's Void Aegis. With it coming out roughly the same time as Eidolons, you know what was mine and many other's immediate thoughts? Hide Under it during the Scream to protect from the Eidolon Energy Scream, it's Literately totted as basically Impenetrable, because the way it is listed "Void Mode creates a shield that grows up to 5m over 5s. This ability costs an  additional 2 Energy/s." All it says is Shield, not shield with hp, not partial shield, Just a Shield. So would assume it'd be invulnerable, but No, of course it doesn't protect as it should against certain things. If you wanna bring consistency to the game, Make Void Aegis actually work.

Now the Healing Dash. Oh yeah, it's great, I love it. I only really fell in love with it when we figured out we could heal defense targets with it about a year or two after it's initial release. That was literately it's saving grace After you gutted the instant revive stacking. It was basically a joke for me to say to an ally. "Hold still so I can heal you :U" So I could Void dash them, cause I'm pretty sure the Healing Dash was abysmal back then even maxed out.

So, here's my end thoughts. Nerf Healing Dash, I'll probably stop playing the game shortly after. You're literately making a Void Space Power Infused Teenager with Cosmic Powers at their Fingertips, Weaker than the Frames that they control. That doesn't make sense. You subjugate things weaker than you, something like a Warframe that is fueled by Energy, supposedly Void Energy Through the Transference Link, that leads to the argument that the Energy Source of their powers is Significantly more Powerful than the Warframe powers themselves.

It's like Sound, Sound isn't as powerful as the Source that created the sound. If it were Equal, Sound would be Very Terrifying and would kill people a lot more than a lot of other weaponry out there to date In The Real World. So remember to think of it like that. Tenno: Source of Sound. Warframe: Sound Waves. Guess which one is Weaker.

So please, DE.
Here's kinda the Ultimatum.
Nerf Healing Dash and Make Void Aegis better, or bring back revive stacking.
If you don't and only Nerf Healing Dash, well, my eternal disappoint and probably abandonment of the game will suffice.

[(PSN)smb-twisted]

18 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

i'm worried about the game's rules getting too complicated and too important in and of themselves. constantly inventing caveats for something that was easily understood and thematically apt in it's original form really breaks the 4th wall.

with that said, practically, all the abilities will do the same thing, heal ~500hp in a short amount of time. with some variation that no one is bothered to learn. it's just not fun to deal with this dreary rulebook gore. 

a general solution would have been better. something like: warframe abilities can't heal inanimate and robotic objects. at all.

healers heal *players*, not defense objectives, and those players prevent the objective receiving damage, suffering hp loss themselves in the process. there's no need to allow healing of the actual objective. that just dilutes the action. objective receives too much damage? time to extract, and try a different tactic next time. 

other than that, some distinct, but again - general - mechanic could have been made for the purpose of healing, such as ordering sentinels and/or moas to stay put and act as repair drones (if they have the Repair Kit mod for example); this could shift the healing done from the sentinel's health pool to the objective's.

i completely agree with all you say.

i also feel healing inanimate objects is nonsense for healing frames. getting rid of this would have the wonderful side effect of actually making crowd control relevant again. so obviously, nothing DE would ever consider

[Urlan]

13 hours ago, (PS4)smb-twisted said:

i completely agree with all you say.

i also feel healing inanimate objects is nonsense for healing frames. getting rid of this would have the wonderful side effect of actually making crowd control relevant again. so obviously, nothing DE would ever consider

If our healing was magic in D&D specifically for the healing of organics or the reverse, magic that repairs constructs or the undead; I could understand such a concern, abilities healing metal? Weird. But the nature of the abilities in Warframe lend themselves to a more general attitude since Warframes themselves machine cell fusions of organic and inorganic nature. Anything that could heal them could realistically heal anything. This is further pointed out by our companions of pure organic, pure robotic, and like our warframes techno-organic fusions are all heal-able as long as DE allows. This would present that logically, deciding what and what not should be healed is purely arbitrary and not really in-setting based.

As you say though, it would be nice if crowd control, like Limbo for example were made more relevant, I am sure he has problems with his popularity as is. That said, the same decisions did give the Sentient more resistance to his and other control moves though Nova seems rather unaffected with her Molecular priming. Weird right?

[(PSN)smb-twisted]

2 hours ago, Urlan said:

If our healing was magic in D&D specifically for the healing of organics or the reverse, magic that repairs constructs or the undead; I could understand such a concern, abilities healing metal? Weird. But the nature of the abilities in Warframe lend themselves to a more general attitude since Warframes themselves machine cell fusions of organic and inorganic nature. Anything that could heal them could realistically heal anything. This is further pointed out by our companions of pure organic, pure robotic, and like our warframes techno-organic fusions are all heal-able as long as DE allows. This would present that logically, deciding what and what not should be healed is purely arbitrary and not really in-setting based.

As you say though, it would be nice if crowd control, like Limbo for example were made more relevant, I am sure he has problems with his popularity as is. That said, the same decisions did give the Sentient more resistance to his and other control moves though Nova seems rather unaffected with her Molecular priming. Weird right?

The 'lore' in warframe is such an unexplored unholy mess that gut feelings is all wee have to go on anyway. Yeah I see the sense in what you're saying but for me, healing is healing not mechanical reconstruction. I guess crypods have a living being in them. 

 

Limbo is the only crowd control frame who is relevant, especially now so I've no idea if you're being facetious or not without sarcasm font. I mean, they're already reworked vauban 'the great crowd control frame' into more of aa damage dealer so I don't think they give a flying love act about cc anymore

[captainHalide]

100 HP/S is all well and good for companions, low-level missions and non-tank frames, but with arbitration, sortie and kuva lich mission objectives having tens of thousands of HP, I don't feel as though the efficacy will really be there at all.  That limit should definitely be raised as much as five or tenfold for the strongest healing abilities we've got, especially Vazarin given the enormous timesink required for proper focus builds. 

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

Garuda should not be treated differently.  The "flavor" aguement being her healing is from blood???  1st of all this is pretty dumb to begin with...  How does BLOOD heal a WARFRAME??   So no im NOT buying the flavor crap.   You gave her healing abilities,  let them count as healing abilities.   (in fact you should double the default range of blood altar!!)

VERY IMPORTANT:   What are your thought on MAGUS "healing" abilities???  Renew/Refresh/Healing ???    Let them work on defense targets but reduce their effectiveness???   Healing is bad ass and does 25% per second lol...  That could probably drop to 2.5-5%/second on defense targets.  The void dash healing one probably needs to be the same.  I dont think renewal even heals others...  I just included it cuz not sure...   

You listed Volt and his shield overcharging abilities.  But you left out Mag.  I dont think she can overcharge defense targets but she should be able to to??? 

--------------------------------------

What about giving healers the ability to overcharge HP and ADD to health  

 

Its a shame these changes didnt make it for Scarlet Spear.   I would have really loved to see some of these frames being used. I would have used some of them!! 

 

[Urlan]

6 hours ago, (PS4)smb-twisted said:

The 'lore' in warframe is such an unexplored unholy mess that gut feelings is all wee have to go on anyway. Yeah I see the sense in what you're saying but for me, healing is healing not mechanical reconstruction. I guess crypods have a living being in them. 

 

Limbo is the only crowd control frame who is relevant, especially now so I've no idea if you're being facetious or not without sarcasm font. I mean, they're already reworked vauban 'the great crowd control frame' into more of aa damage dealer so I don't think they give a flying love act about cc anymore

I wasn't trying to be silly.

[vanaukas]

I'm to lazy to check out, but they said something new on this matter?