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Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets


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Just dont change the values of the drones for eidolons, also now there is only 1 good focus tree isntead of 2. So 1/5 worth caring for normal gameplay.

Edited by Ferbsol
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5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Warframe Abilities / other items that provide healing will work on Defendable Objects in 3 ways:
 

  1. Fine as is
  2. Needs a cap
  3. Change “Burst Heal” into “Heal Over Time”

     

Heal Source

 Normal effect

Effect on all types of static Defendable objects (Cryopods, Excavators, etc)
NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions

How does this already work on the live build? 

Vazarin - Protective Dash

5 seconds invulnerability

60% Heal over 5 seconds

No invulnerability

Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Works at full effect

Next let’s talk Damage Reduction. The above covers healing efforts, but what about abilities that reduce incoming Damage? It’s completely inconsistent on live right now, so we are making changes.
 

Damage Reduction

Damage Reduction Source

Normal effect

Effect on all types of static Defendable objects (Cryopods, Excavators, etc)
NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions.

How does this already work on live? 

Nezha - Warding Halo

Absorbs 90% of damage

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

On live does nothing 

I've been pretty critical of DE the past few weeks, with the disappointing SS release quality, after we had a taste of good things again with Warframe Revised, after the other lackluster, unpolished updates. But I want to give credit where credit is due, I really think it's awesome that you guys are reviewing Healing to make it a bit more consistent and valued across the board. A couple more passes on fundamental gameplay mechanics like you did with Melee's rework (Rage mode and more Dual-Wielding when?) and Warframe Revised (gas, puncture, and magnetic still need more value though), the base gameplay will feel so much better across the board.

I have one critique and one question though.

1) For Vazarin's Protective Dash, shouldn't invulnerability count as a "Damage Reduction"? It would be fairer for it to remain but be capped, as with other Damage Reduction sources, at the 50% damage reduction for those 5 seconds of healing. I also personally think that the unmodified healing feels a bit rough, I'm personally of the opinion that a lot of things in the game, like Oberon's Smite, should have base integer values and percent-based values, to help everything scale just a little bit better and more universally, across the board.

2) For Nezha's Warding Halo, the Halo ABSORBS 90% of the damage the recipient would have taken, burning through the HP value of the Halo accordingly. Can you please confirm that the HP value is going to be depleted at an appropriate rate? As in, not depleted at the same rate as a player's Halo would, as it's only absorbing around half of the damage?

Edit: Oh, and this too

11 minutes ago, (PS4)demishock said:

Loving the sound of these changes! Wondering if health/shield pizzas should also be on this list?

Edit 2: Oh, this as well 

2 hours ago, Ubarruk said:

While youre at it could wisps motes be allowed to affect sentinels and pets? ❤️

It's a smidge bogus that our pets and sentinels seem to rarely benefit from most sources of potential healing or shielding. Having to pick your pet up again the instant it dies in high level content DESPITE fully modding for survivability feels bad man.

Edited by Grav_Starstrider
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5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Notes: Since the heal amount is based on player damage, the numbers are astronomical which will lead to imbalances outside our goal here. 

Thanks for the workshop.

Glad you guys acknowledge this is an issue. I hope one day you will bite the bullet and dramatically tone down the percentages of all +damage mods and fix multishot mods to consume ammo properly. You guys have really squeezed yourself into a corner where you cannot really implement any meaningful enemy or boss design (or pet-master type warframe) without part of the playerbase screaming it is too difficult while another part is simultaneously screaming it is too easy (or it's mechanics are bullS#&$)

 

Any word on mobile defense objectives? Or at least getting the rescue target some therapy so it's AI is not so overtly suicidal?

 

Another issue that needs to be addressed simultaneously is infinite energy restores (and every restore in general). I can see some players just pad spamming their way to victory by dumping dozens and dozens of pads at once and then spamming burst heals. My hope is that you guys limit pads to something like 1 per mission/per endless round.

 

Edited by ADirtyMonk
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This nerf to Protective Dash completely guts the ability's utility and takes out any reason to actually invest focus into it. Protective Dash was great for long defensive runs because it scaled, and even at lower levels Defense targets have tens to hundreds of thousands of hit points. 500 HP of healing over 5 seconds is terrible. Protective Dash gave one extra reason to not just use a defense-oriented frame for Defense, it permitted a certain amount of risk-taking for having Protective Dash in the back-pocket between waves of enemies.

If you need to nerf Dash, don't completely knee-cap it with such a terrible number, reduce the cap to something like 30% instead and remove invulnerability. Let it keep its ability to scale so it can still be viable for missions above level 10.

This nerf would just further solidify Zenurik as the sole focus school worth investing in overall.

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First: I think the general ideas behind the changes are pretty good. ProDash really is just too strong (though that's why I love it so much). So props for that.

 

But the issue I see with the suggested changes is that 100 hp/s (500 hp over 5s) becomes pointless real quick. Even on planets like Jupiter, Pluto, etc. In situations in which the objective needs healing 100hp/s won't make a difference. That's imo against the very core of these changes.

 

Here is my idea:

Make the healing scaling. E.g. 2-3% of the objective's health. But also set a minimum. No idea what a good number would be but let's use the 100hp/s as an example.

 

That way beginners would still benefit well from using Blessing on e.g. Earth, even when 2-3% of the objective's health doesn't translate to any meaningful amount because they can't fall below the 100 hp/s. But at the same time people in arbies would have worthwhile healing options because there 2-3% of the objective's health translates to something like 800-1200 health (assuming the objective has ~40k hp). An amount that actually matters in relation to the damage enemies can pump out there.

 

As comparison: 100hp/s translates to 0.25% in arbies. You have to agree that that's pointless and that nobody would ever make use of it. Waiting 4 seconds for 1% healing in situations where the objective actually takes damage doesn't help anybody.

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When enemies can one-shot the Defense objective ( that includes excavators, kuva harvestors, mobile defense stations) these changes will ultimately change nothing. 
Limbo, Khora and Frost will continue to cheese, meanwhile Nyx's corpse still rotting.

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5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:


We have been heads down several days on discussions - and ultimately what we want is more ‘Healing’ abilities to work to allow for more strategies to emerge in various mission types.

The nerf to Vazarin seems too extreme.  And I say that as somebody who is pained by how much the current version invalidates specialized support frames. 

My suggestion is to not go so far with this in one blow.  Take a smaller step and evaluate from there.

As far as more support abilities affecting objectives goes:  I haven't looked at the numbers, but this is a great approach.  Thank you.

Harrow Covenant invulnerability wasn't on the list though.  What are your plans there?  (And if you could work on cryopods getting the retaliation crit bonus, deploying wheels, and just crushing everything that moves, that would be swell! 🙃 )

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Where's Oberon"s Iron Renewal in the damage mitigation section? Or will armor buffs simply not apply?

Not happy with any of these flat numbers, healing on a defense objective needs to be a % to be of any use beyond Venus. Try again.

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some of these really need to just be percentages

when enemies can do thousands of damage per second, 500 health over 5 seconds is absolutely useless

i agree that something like invul. + 60% health regen is pretty nutty, but changing that to just 500 health is just downright useless

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5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Vazarin - Protective Dash

5 seconds invulnerability

60% Heal over 5 seconds

No invulnerability

Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Works at full effect

 

Well it was fun while it lasted, but at least it's only getting nerfed instead of removed

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Like many others here, I'm expressing concern over these changes. A step in the right direction but could be better. My problems with it.
1) Flat value heals.
2) Protective Dash huge nerf.

If all of these opinions gets ignored and they push through with the nerfs, then I don't know what to say anymore.

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So, we're back to putting Zenurik on a pedestal because you're afraid of us "cheesing" your lackluster grindfest missions? Way to kick Vazarin players down a tier. Killing CC & healing won't make Scarlet Spear look like any less of a turd than it already is.

As per usual, any concerns we have about flat value healing nerfs will be put off to the side unless one of two scenarios happen:

  1. The community ACTUALLY comes together & tells DE to pull their head outta the clouds & pay attention to players & their knowledge of what ACTUALLY works. Given the rather defensive nature of some players though, this criticism will be shot down.
  2. Some bigshot Youtuber that isn't a partner realizes this is just bad game design, but that won't happen because these bigshots only care about that sweet ad revenue.

All these nerfs are culminating, revealing the horrible reality this game is in. It's finally dawned on me that, with the exception of the mainline, we might truly be in a state of decline that won't be remedied within the immediate future.

Edited by (PS4)IndianChiefJeff
Worthless input
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5 hours ago, OceanDragon said:

Honestly. Why were these nerfs even needed?

With all due respect, don't you guys at DE have better things to do than nerf something that isn't hurting the game in any way?

EDIT: Let me add some actual feedback to this.

This is not going to be a positive change. In warframe, we have powerful abilities that will trivialize these missions either way. These will be the best unless you ruin their functionality entirely. Trying to make other abilities similar, but significantly weaker won't change anything. Why go with a frame that has some utility, yet still has a chance to fail, when you can go with a frame that will ensure your success 100%.

In fact, what you'll end up doing if you push these changes out is you'll reduce the diversity. Biggest example of this is Vazarin change. With people using Vazarin, they can take any frame to a mission with a vulnerable objective and still feel fairly safe doing so. After it gets nerfed, they won't be able to take those frames and will feel forced to take frames like Limbo, Volt, Frost etc. It also reduces the value of using Vazrain to basically 0, but focus balance is a different topic (which would probably be a way better use of design time if you improve the underused schools there).

I hope this is a clear explanation why these are nerfs. I really hope you actually take any feedback into consideration with these changes.

Or we might just decide to skip doing defense oriented missions for survivals instead with invisibility instead. After all, there's a bigger delay before they snap to you after breaking invis and Rolling Guards a thing so yeah... Can't hit what you can't see.

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A lot of abilities seem to not stack. At least the ones which provide around 500 healing for 5sec. What about smaller values of healing? Can such abilities be combined, to a certain cap, to archive a higher healing potential?

It would be great, once you fine- tuned the numbers and the overall changes you want to implement, to go a little bit deeper in detail.

Edited by imbressive
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6 hours ago, Kylo. said:

Basically everything that can heal with heal now instead of certain abilities do certian don't?

Are... you having a stroke?

6 hours ago, notNSANE said:

Great work here. We don't need massive healings, just a bit and some "armor". Will allow for more strategies.

Numbers seem right, as long as several frames can stack them. If not, we have a problem.

Numbers seem right for someone that doesnt play past Mars.

Since arbitration cryopods have 2 million health, and enemies deal 500 thousand damage per hit, so a measly 500 health heal is USELESS

It needs to be percentage based to scale. The numbers are NOT right at all currently

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6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We have been heads down several days on discussions - and ultimately what we want is more ‘Healing’ abilities to work to allow for more strategies to emerge in various mission types.

Since you're on that topic, it's worth noting that you've created an entire faction (Sentient) that can literally stop more then 50% of all the warframe powers you've created from working in a way that feels enjoyable or worthwhile. In other words, you have a whole faction that severely reduces the number of viable strategies, builds and even weapons that we can use.

Right now, since the Sentients can only be found in a handful of missions and mostly in small quantities (Scarlet Spear is an exception), this problem has remained mostly under the radar. But as the game moves further into New War territory this is going to become a very serious problem that will stop people from having fun (it is already happening in Scarlet Spear).

The Sentient, as a faction, cannot be allowed to have such a huge advantage over warframes. If you want some Sentient units to have that kind of advantage that is fine. But the entire faction being able to do this is completely absurd. You're throwing a huge amount of variety this game has to offer into the trash and pushing people into a "meta or nothing" ideology even further.

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