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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets

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18 minutes ago, Arcira said:
Just for clarification what exactly does can´t stack mean? Is it limited to the same ability or the same effect (e.g. Venari and Protective Dash)

1 person updates the effect. If there are several people, only the last effect works.

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To be honest, I'm actually quite disappointed by these changes. Whilst allowing abilities to be applied to defence targets in some fashion is nice, flat figures are essentially without merit when objective health scales. If you are going to restrict it then let us heal up to 50% health over 5s, otherwise these abilities are essentially trivial in any higher level content.

Your stated goal is to allow choice, and yet with these changes you are essentially forced to use a frame that has static defensive capabilities as the healing will be easily overwhelmed. Worse still, the changes to Protective Dash take away the one option that we had which could act as a panic button of sorts. While I may dislike the changes to the healing, taking away the invulnerability invalidates the worth of the ability, as it was those few precious seconds that could afford you a clutch win.

However, my biggest fear is that you intend to apply these rules to other types of objective, such as Eidolon Lures and Operatives, please can we get some further clarity on whether these are included within the scope of these changes or if the interactions will remain as is?

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4 hours ago, Rasdan said:

Thanks Khora mains, now Vazarin is nerfed.

Lmao. Ah yes, because it was clearly the ones who main Khora who reported her for an "exploit"

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While i like the idea behind this to allow healing/support frames more of a roll and optional picks for defense objectives... perhaps you'd want to look into putting some level scaling on there too, at higher levels defense targets health pools gets HUGE (when they're not bugged) and these heals wont make much of a difference and certainly not an optional pick.

Also in line with Wisps health mote, and some other giving max shields, will some of Chromas Elemental wards apply their health or some damage reduction bonuses? think someone also pointed out that limbo has a healing augment mod.

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Very glad to see this change. The low healing numbers worry me for a lot of frames , but I will first want to test them for myself. This and Limbo changes might finally let me bring warframes I want to play for the Scarlet Spear 

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I don't realy understand the logic behind this changes. You said you have "nerfed" venari heal to not trivialise content but yet you offer much more way to trivialise the event.

 

So yet we have more way to defend, but what is done to ballance this global deffense buff ? more ennemies ? more damages ?

 

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I am sure this has been mentioned numerous times already, but stop with the flat values! Everything that can't scale with level only hurts the game. For example: Last time I checked Mag could only strip flat amounts of armor with her abilities. What makes this useless as soon as the enemies have to much scaled armor. This would be different if it would work like Shattering Impact which affects base armor and scales with level. So I really hope the 500 hp over 5s is a scaling base value...

Another problem I see with the illustrated changes are the cap of damage reduction to 50%. I can solo the ground mission of the event thanks to Gara and the 90% dmg reduction of Splinter Storm. But I still need to use Mass Vitrify to keep enemies from shooting at the Oplink. At level 150 one single enemy could easily destroy it even with 90% dmg reduction. This needs to be playtested. The health scaling of objectives and the damage scaling of enemies needs to be taken into account to balance the dmg reduction cap.

I really appreciate that the game's abilities finally get normalized and allow for more variety. Keep up the work!

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With these hard caps, different frames for heal and dr will need to stack to make long runs viable without limbo. Also titania passive heal is pathetic at any level, can it stack for team and objectives pls?

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Il y a 12 heures, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

Tenno,

Earlier this week we were ‘Tip’ped off to a problem of our own creation:

Next let’s talk Damage Reduction. The above covers healing efforts, but what about abilities that reduce incoming Damage? It’s completely inconsistent on live right now, so we are making changes.

 

Please Rebecca for oberon :

Check the energy comsumption with thing like nekros shadow & lure and an high number of target to heal.

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Il y a 12 heures, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

Tenno,

Earlier this week we were ‘Tip’ped off to a problem of our own creation:

Next let’s talk Damage Reduction. The above covers healing efforts, but what about abilities that reduce incoming Damage? It’s completely inconsistent on live right now, so we are making changes.

 

Please Rebecca for oberon :

Check the energy comsumption with thing like nekros shadow, eidolon lures and an high number of target to heal.

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Il y a 12 heures, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

Tenno,

Earlier this week we were ‘Tip’ped off to a problem of our own creation:

Next let’s talk Damage Reduction. The above covers healing efforts, but what about abilities that reduce incoming Damage? It’s completely inconsistent on live right now, so we are making changes.

 

Please Rebecca for oberon :

Check the energy comsumption with thing like nekros shadow, eidolon lures and an high number of target to heal.

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12 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Vazarin - Protective Dash

5 seconds invulnerability

60% Heal over 5 seconds

No invulnerability

Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Works at full effect

I am more and more dissapointed in changes you are making to this game with each update and I question all of my purchases in this game. Do you really hate fun that much? What will be next, changing Zenurik to 1 energy per second as it makes energy channel obsolete?

With your proposed changes, please make a test build and try it on high level (~90) defense mission without protective frame with only vazarin. 100 hp/s is not good enough for content above Saturn. I agree 5 seconds invuln with 60% instant heal was too strong, so how about it healing maybe 4% health each second for 5 seconds with 1 second invuln with minimum heal per second capped at 100 hp/s.

Give it some actual ability to heal objective enough to keep it allive based on % of max health or % of missing health so not everyone ends up using Zenurik.

https://i.redd.it/ocakkd4ghj841.png

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Extremely questionable decision on Vazarin, like legit "it's god-tier (i.e. a working solution for some gameplay scenarios) or it's nothing"- kind of decision.
And invul. being completely taken out like this just for non-scaling amount of heal is downright insulting.
Since it clearly wouldn't backpedal on stuff like this, i'd prefer to see a potent damage reduction in place of invulnerability within the same duration period.


Everything else seems fine, just from a point that barely anything actually works as of now, but it will, so there's that.
 

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Il y a 13 heures, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

Tenno,

Earlier this week we were ‘Tip’ped off to a problem of our own creation:

Claiming a ‘fix’ for Venari + Healing + Inanimate Objects when a Tip from the community creation verifies it’s intended. How can this be? Well, you can see the history here the topic is not over:

“We made a hasty change in Hotfix 27.3.6 that removed Venari’s Heal aura from affecting Oplinks AND Defense Targets. Firstly, the terminology of calling Venari’s Defense Target healing a ‘fix’ was incorrect, so apologies there on my behalf. It’s correct to say it was a feature for Venari, considering it had its own Tip for it! The change stemmed from our desire to resolve Operation exploits as quickly as possible, and we didn't communicate this properly.

We’re doing a deeper review on abilities that heal Defense Targets that we can speak to in the coming days.
Apologies as well for the late reply on this topic. We’ll update everyone when we’ve dug deeper and have an action plan.


We have been heads down several days on discussions - and ultimately what we want is more ‘Healing’ abilities to work to allow for more strategies to emerge in various mission types. We want there to be lots of options instead of one ‘perfect’ option. The decision to not allow heals to work on these defensive targets is an old one, and it arose from Trinity's Blessing. The fact that it was a 100% heal meant that it trivialized any Defense mission. Since then we have been blocking heal on most abilities (not super consistently) without reflecting back on the original design decision.

Now that that we have reviewed it, we feel like healing these objectives can serve well as an alternative or a complement to the commonly used defensive abilities, such as Frost's Snow Globe, Gara's Mass Vitrify, Limbo's Cataclysm. 100% heals is not what we want to do, so we are instead trying to allow the effects but adjusted as to not trivialize the game modes.

Here are the next steps:

Warframe Abilities / other items that provide healing will work on Defendable Objects in 3 ways:
 

  1. Fine as is
  2. Needs a cap
  3. Change “Burst Heal” into “Heal Over Time”

     

Heal Source

 Normal effect

Effect on all types of static Defendable objects (Cryopods, Excavators, etc)
NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions

How does this already work on the live build? 

Gara - Mending Splinters

3 HP per sec for each active splinter

Fine as is.

As is 

Hildryn - Haven

500 Max Shields

80% faster Shield recharge

Fine as is, will inherit the Normal effect behaviour.

On live does nothing 

Trinity - Blessing

Up to 100% HP and Shield restore

Previously did nothing. Now, will Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

On live does nothing 

Equinox - Mend

25 Shields for each enemy killed

Burst heal based on how much damage was dealt

Notes: Since the heal amount is based on player damage, the numbers are astronomical which will lead to imbalances outside our goal here. 

Previously did nothing. Now, Allow the Shields component to work and heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack.

Does not affect (health nor shield)

Vazarin - Protective Dash

5 seconds invulnerability

60% Heal over 5 seconds

No invulnerability

Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Works at full effect

Khora - Venari

Heal for 50 hp/sec

Fine as is. Will return functionality that kicked this whole Workshop off.

 

We will be returning the functionality it had before

Hydroid - Curative Undertow

Heals 30% hp every 1.5 secs when ally stands on it

Previously did nothing. Heal for 100 per 1.5 sec

On live does nothing

Harrow - Penance

Heals allies for a % of damage dealt

Notes: Similar to Equinox, very hard to balance for this since it’s based on damage dealt. 

Heals are capped up to 50 per.

On live does nothing

Oberon - Renew

125 burst heal

50 health per sec

Previously did nothing. Now, Fine as is and will inherit this behaviour. 

On live does nothing

Garuda - Blood Siphon

Heals by % of missing health

Doesn’t apply, for flavor we think this shouldn’t.

On live does nothing

Inaros - Scarab Swarm

Heals for damage dealt by Swarm Projectile divided by allies in range.

Fine as is, will inherit this behaviour. 

On live does nothing

Nidus - Ravenous

Heal allies standing on it for 20 HP per second

Fine as is, will inherit this behaviour. 

On live does nothing

Wisp - Vitality Mote

Increase max hp by 300 and heal for 30 hp per second

Fine as is, will inherit this behaviour. 

On live does nothing

Volt - Capacitance

Grants shields based on 3% of damage dealt

Capped at 250 shields, no overshields

On live does nothing

Titania - Passive 

4 Heal Per Second for 20 Seconds,

Fine as is

On live does nothing 

Sancti Magistar

Heals for damage dealt in an AoE

Heal for up to 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack with other players. Going from a burst to Heal over Time. 

Going from burst to heal over time

Ancient Healer

Heal for 100 HP every 20 seconds

Fine as is

As is

Rejuvenation Aura

Heal 3 HP per sec

Fine as is

As is

Arcane Pulse

60% Chance to heal for 150 HP when picking up a globe with a 15 sec cooldown.

Fine as is

As is



Next let’s talk Damage Reduction. The above covers healing efforts, but what about abilities that reduce incoming Damage? It’s completely inconsistent on live right now, so we are making changes.
 

Damage Reduction

Damage Reduction Source

Normal effect

Effect on all types of static Defendable objects (Cryopods, Excavators, etc)
NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions.

How does this already work on live? 

Trinity - Blessing

50% Damage reduction unmodded

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

On live does nothing 

Mirage - Total Eclipse

Grants 75% Damage reduction to allies

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

On live does nothing 

Titania - Thorns

50% damage redirected to enemies

Fine as is

On live does nothing

Gara - Splinter Storm

70% Damage reduction

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

Works at full effect

Ember - Immolated Radiance

50% of Immolates Damage reduction applies to allies

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

On live does nothing 

Baruuk - Desolate Hands

80% Damage reduction

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

On live does nothing 

Harrow - Warding Thurible

40% Damage Reduction

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

Works at full effect

Nezha - Warding Halo

Absorbs 90% of damage

Capped at 50% Damage Reduction

On live does nothing 


 

We are aiming to ship this bigger revision on Defendable Object healing in a near Hotfix - stay tuned as we dive deeper into this. We just wanted everyone to be aware of the intent within the same week we created the miscommunication and inconsistency.

Stay home, stay safe, have an awesome weekend Tenno!
 

thank you for making your great great work team and DE love you and your team for your great work.

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I have quite a few issues with these proposed changes:

  • They introduce a whole lot more book-keeping for which abilities do what in which situation. An instant heal in some situations will heal over time in others, a percentage value will be flat, and a cap will vary depending on the mission. This isn't going to be friendly to new players, or even players who aren't keeping up to date with details such as this workshop.
  • Allowing damage reduction steroids to apply to defense objectives will simply encourage certain frames to come in and spam those abilities for 100% uptime. I'm not sure that's really encouraging the best gameplay.
  • Even with these numbers, I'm pretty sure the above changes are going to make defense objectives trivial to maintain with the right frame. If nothing else, it's likely to create one of those huge gaps in effectiveness based on just bringing the frame that happens to break the mission.

As such, I'd rather defense objectives in general were made immune to ally utility of all kinds, which would eliminate the above book-keeping and avoid pressure to bring only a certain few frames to those missions.

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Posted (edited)

Time to bust out the Broberon again 👀💦

Btw all of this info should be placed in the corresponding Ability's Descriptions, or the corresponding Warframe's Tips. Lets not have it only exist in this Forum Thread that will soon be forgotten and in Wiki descriptions.

Edited by Petroklos
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13 hours ago, Nemesis said:

Vazarin does not work on the live version on the uplinks.

Nothing is meant to work on OpLinks on the live build.

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Il y a 14 heures, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

500 over 5s on a defense objectif with 5000 hp why not, but 500 over 5s on 25k hp defense objectif no, put a 5% regen over 5s in this case

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personally given the amount of investment that focus takes, and the freedom it provides to pick frames other than the meta, I think protective dash should remain unchanged. its only 5 sec, and really for long excavations and defenses that is basically required. 50% dmg reduction cap on abilities and 500 hp cap is gonna do basically nothing at higher levels and even in arbitrations. This change makes protective dash basically useless in the only situation where it was needed.

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So everything that was good got nerfed (Dash, mace, etc) and every thing that didn't heal in the first place now works, but only at low level content.

 

Why is it always a monkey paw with you lot? Why couldn't you just nu-nerf Khora and leave everything else alone.

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13 hours ago, LeaserResael said:

Sorry but this is ridiculous. Do you actually play your game? When you reach the point of needing to heal defensive targets, enemies are already at a really high level and their damage is WAY, WAAYY higher than 500 hp. 

Seriously, play your own game. Put any lvl 150 enemy against any defensive target and see how fast the HP drops. Healing 500 hp over 5 seconds does absolutely nothing. So I don't understand what is this trying to acomplish. Yeah, you get 50% damage reduction with some abilities but even with that DR enemies will hit defense targets way faster than what we can heal them.

This is pointless.

I've always said that DE has yet to discover the difference between designing Warframe and actually playing Warframe.  These proposed changes are not good at all except returning Venari back to uts original state.  May I humbly make a suggestion?  For the time being just return Venari to its orginal state and then test ALL the other proposed changes in multiple game modes before implementation.  In the end this will save you time and effort instead of peace mealing changes like you'll have been doing in the past.   These proposed changes are not good for the game as many others here have stated.  The good thing is you'll are on the right track but slow your roll a bit.  The proposed changes to Vazarin does seem to be a bit extreme in my opinion, no pun intended.  I understand and do appreciate you'll trying to balance Operation Scarlett Spear but Warframe is far more than just Scarlett Spear, that is why I ask you'll to hold off on the changes until they're THOROUGHLY tested in multiple games mades i.e. Defense, Mobile Defense, Excavation, and Eidolon hunts etc.  I mean the game has survived in its present state for years now and few more days or weeks is not going to hurt. Atleast if its all tested and you'll are satisfied with the results you won't have to double back and implement additional changes except where needed.    

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7 hours ago, Rasdan said:

Thanks Khora mains, now Vazarin is nerfed.

Dont blame us! With all these ways to heal, no one is going to pick Khora over Oberon, Nidus, etc.

In my eyes, all of these changes are just as much of a nerf as the previous nerf. She has an ability that no other frame had and now everyone can heal the obj, so she lost her unique-ness.

DE should have just un-nerfed her and left everything as it was. MAYBE let some of the DR frames work with the obj.

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7 hours ago, Rasdan said:

Thanks Khora mains, now Vazarin is nerfed.

Thanks DE to overreact on minor niche bug.

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