Now that enemy scaling is fixed, viral and our unbelievable damage output need nerfing?

[ThePunkyReason]

I think a lot of newer players (3 years or so) don't remember what top level weapons and warframes were like before. The power level was not nearly this high, and right now it is so high that there is never going to be content that DE will ever make, even level 200 missions are extremely easy with a melee or Bramma. When I started playing about 5 years ago, the best primary was soma prime, and that weapon is no where near as strong now. It's a high accuracy assault rifle that takes one target out at a time. Bramma, the new best primary by a huge margin, has a very high crit rate, very high damage and an extremely large AoE so it can hit 10-15 enemies with a single shot. The Catchmoon was nerfed because it was so strong that it felt like a non-choice as to what pistol you would use because it was better than all pistols in every respect. Bramma is in a similar place now, best AoE damage by a mile, same single target dps as rubico, and as a result absolutely trivializes the game up to level 300. Similarly Acolyte mods and melee 3.0 have made melee so oppressively powerful that when you don't use melee (or Bramma) your DPS is so much lower than someone mashing E with melee. Current melee mods are so over the top powerful now, that I got my friend who is a new player the good mods (CO, Weeping wounds, Drifting Contact, Dual stats) that he can now beat level 200s in a mission with me with his MR0 Dual skana (and the MR14 melees are exponentially stronger than this). When I started, melees were a bit on the weak side which isn't optimal, but being so incredibly powerful that MR0 melees out perform most primaries and secondaries is way too far (Zaws and kronen far outpeform any other weapon). So this game wasn't always about nuking rooms with minimal effort, we had mostly single target weapons that had much longer kill times. The one exception to the old weapons was tonkor, which used to be extremely broken (still not as good as current Bramma) and got nerfed because it was way too powerful and screen clears were once again not in the game. Many newer players don't remember what it was like to play and be scared of level 150s, now I worry because DE would have to make level 350 missions for people to even start to have to play smart.

Viral, as the OP pointed out is wayyyyy more powerful than the other statuses. There are people arguing in this thread about whether it is too strong or not, and if they have done any testing they would know it is. Viral is better than corrosive vs Armor because of how it pairs with slash and fire, boosting their damage. If you use a kuva nukor, which isn't a slash weapon, you won't notice this. Not only that, using toxin magnetic is still slightly worse than using viral heat slash vs corpus. 

If the power level is toned back and you want your power trip you can just play lower level missions, because those would remain trivial, but currently the game can't really offer a challenge unless DE adds level 300 sentient content (which won't happen). No I'm not asking for Dark Souls, but turning my brain on would be nice.

 

 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

30 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Mot buffs enemies.

Disruption is just like every other mission. Variety of enemies with varying Heath, defense, mechanics.

Why waste my time screwing around in Railjack to kill a couple enemies when I can just spawn those same enemies in the Simulcrum and test them there in a controlled environment?

That’s the point 

that’s the point/

rj enemies have the same variables and can have differing values as above. Testing it upon such gives you a more accurate results then the simulcrum

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

49 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

And this is why warframe is going to S#&$, they think that by nerfing something the other less optimal options will be more appealing but in reality you don't create diversity by nerfing the ''op'' stuff  you do it by introducing mechanics where the other options will be useful.

No other game has this logic you don’t make everything op you nerf what needs to be nerfed and buff what needs to be buffed in order to find a balance. If something is performing well above the other things you don’t make everything op and you don’t keep the weaker things weak. You adjust everything accordingly which is one of wfs major problems they haven’t and don’t do that

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

15 minutes ago, ThePunkyReason said:

I think a lot of newer players (3 years or so) don't remember what top level weapons and warframes were like before. The power level was not nearly this high, and right now it is so high that there is never going to be content that DE will ever make, even level 200 missions are extremely easy with a melee or Bramma. When I started playing about 5 years ago, the best primary was soma prime, and that weapon is no where near as strong now. It's a high accuracy assault rifle that takes one target out at a time. Bramma, the new best primary by a huge margin, has a very high crit rate, very high damage and an extremely large AoE so it can hit 10-15 enemies with a single shot. The Catchmoon was nerfed because it was so strong that it felt like a non-choice as to what pistol you would use because it was better than all pistols in every respect. Bramma is in a similar place now, best AoE damage by a mile, same single target dps as rubico, and as a result absolutely trivializes the game up to level 300. Similarly Acolyte mods and melee 3.0 have made melee so oppressively powerful that when you don't use melee (or Bramma) your DPS is so much lower than someone mashing E with melee. Current melee mods are so over the top powerful now, that I got my friend who is a new player the good mods (CO, Weeping wounds, Drifting Contact, Dual stats) that he can now beat level 200s in a mission with me with his MR0 Dual skana (and the MR14 melees are exponentially stronger than this). When I started, melees were a bit on the weak side which isn't optimal, but being so incredibly powerful that MR0 melees out perform most primaries and secondaries is way too far (Zaws and kronen far outpeform any other weapon). So this game wasn't always about nuking rooms with minimal effort, we had mostly single target weapons that had much longer kill times. The one exception to the old weapons was tonkor, which used to be extremely broken (still not as good as current Bramma) and got nerfed because it was way too powerful and screen clears were once again not in the game. Many newer players don't remember what it was like to play and be scared of level 150s, now I worry because DE would have to make level 350 missions for people to even start to have to play smart.

Viral, as the OP pointed out is wayyyyy more powerful than the other statuses. There are people arguing in this thread about whether it is too strong or not, and if they have done any testing they would know it is. Viral is better than corrosive vs Armor because of how it pairs with slash and fire, boosting their damage. If you use a kuva nukor, which isn't a slash weapon, you won't notice this. Not only that, using toxin magnetic is still slightly worse than using viral heat slash vs corpus. 

If the power level is toned back and you want your power trip you can just play lower level missions, because those would remain trivial, but currently the game can't really offer a challenge unless DE adds level 300 sentient content (which won't happen). No I'm not asking for Dark Souls, but turning my brain on would be nice.

 

 

King you dropped thy crown 

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, BDMblue said:

So we went from mods not effecting damage to mods effect damage, but we’re going to just nerf them. Community is going to love that. Next let’s reduce Warframes Mods to 15% bonus. 

I just don’t understand what problem your trying to fix and how? What does the elemental change do? What happens to 60/60 over 90 elemental mod choice go? What replaces that choice and how is your way more varied? It seems less. In your system I would pick the best element and build that as much into my gun as I can. Just forget the rest of the others. Take a single shot gun multi-shot reload. This would all become standard and cost 40-70% of the player base because it just destroyed years of players work. 

Maybe your young and have not played a lot of games to know how metas pop up. Your system is a way to make more catchmoon metas and won’t help anything or make the game funnier. Just single shot guns everything else is MR fodder. 

What community  wants is not necessarily what is better for the game in the long run, my suggestions also may not be suitable , that is why discussions exist to debate and deliberate and improve things. The concept of bal;ance is two fold , not everything can just be buffed indefinitely , some things need to be nerfed suitably (note the term suitably)

The topic of the thread is with regards to damage output , it would be silly of me to make a post that is unrelated to that ,

Also just clarifying on the assumptions you made earlier with regards to no advantage of any modding and there being only one gun that is superior to everything else.

The example was more to set a theoretical understanding of the suggestion as a concept.

but i will try to answer your questions as they came:

1) What does elemental change do? Same thing it does now , proc status and provide damage bonus against specific health/armor /shield types.

2) What happens to 60/60 over 90 elemental mod choice ? it still stays, 60/60 becomes more along the lines of 30/60 (30% elemental .split over 20% replacement and 10%, bonus and 60% status) and 90% becomes 45% (30% replacement , 15% bonus) effective differences remain unchanged to use one over the other from choice perspective.

3) What replaces that choice and how is your way more varied? Since Serration is now innate , that is one less mod to make mandatory on any build , since Multi shot reduces ammo pool , adding more will make it less effective from sustained damage perspective though burst damage is better, Since effective rise of damage with elemental mods is not a flat multiplier and it affects chance to proc IPS / elemental more clearly it may be more sensible to add QoL mods like reload , magazine or even ammo capacity over a third element.

4) In your system I would pick the best element and build that as much into my gun as I can. Just forget the rest of the others.  - You are losing out on IPS the more elements you add and you only have so much IPS , you will keep getting diminishing returns on both IPS and the effective bonus damage on that element (sequence of modding will matter as well).

5) Take a single shot gun multi-shot reload -  Depends on the other stats , and we havent talked about all the mods yet , fire rate exists , falloff range exists , punch through exists , you are so used to your typical build where you cram as much multiplying damage as possible that you cannot see the possibilities once Damage is no longer that necessary to pursue.

6) This would all become standard and cost 40-70% of the player base because it just destroyed years of players work - Its a game , not a life savings that is being siphoned away after years of hard workm -  you may not be able to one shot the level 150 grineer heavy eximus with bonus shields, but will it matter a lot if your difficulty at 150 is now equal to level 70? how have things really changed for you?

7) Maybe your young and have not played a lot of games to know how metas pop up - my 8 year old digital game library and even older physical library with actual CDs and floppies with games that i have purchased for myself would disagree, and again we are not talking about unemployment lines of the now vs the good old days, we are talking about arbitrary stats of objects that can be changed at the whims and fancy of its makers. Metas pop up when they are the better option than the alternative, The problem with the game right now is that the difference between the Meta and the non meta is so huge that the non meta might as well be useless, my intention is to reduce this gap as much as possible. Its takes you 10s to kill something with a meta weapon? it should not take you more than 15s with a non meta weapon. Its still meta , but its less absolute. but if it takes you 10s to kill something and the meta can do it in 1s there needs to be drastic changes.

8 ) Your system is a way to make more catchmoon metas - i fail to see the relevance or even the reason for mentioning catchmoon.

9) and won’t help anything or make the game funnier. Just single shot guns everything else is MR fodder. - your opinion based on incomplete information you didn't even try to grasp fully.

Try to keep an open mind when discussing something it will help you in the long run.

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by 0_The_F00l

[ThePunkyReason]

3 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

What community  wants is not necessarily what is better for the game in the long run, my suggestions also may not be suitable , that is why discussions exist to debate and deliberate and improve things. The concept of bal;ance is two fold , not everything can just be buffed indefinitely , some things need to be nerfed suitably (note the term suitably)

The topic of the thread is with regards to damage output , it would be silly of me to make a post that is unrelated to that ,

Also just clarifying on the assumptions you made earlier with regards to no advantage of any modding and there being only one gun that is superior to everything else.

The example was more to set a theoretical understanding of the suggestion as a concept.

but i will try to answer your questions as they came:

1) What does elemental change do? Same thing it does now , proc status and provide damage bonus against specific health/armor /shield types.

2) What happens to 60/60 over 90 elemental mod choice ? it still stays, 60/60 becomes more along the lines of 30/60 (30% elemental .split over 20% replacement and 10%, bonus and 60% status) and 90% becomes 45% (30% replacement , 15% bonus) effective differences remain unchanged to use one over the other from choice perspective.

3) What replaces that choice and how is your way more varied? Since Serration is now innate , that is one less mod to make mandatory on any build , since Multi shot reduces ammo pool , adding more will make it less effective from sustained damage perspective though burst damage is better, Since effective rise of damage with elemental mods is not a flat multiplier and it affects chance to proc IPS / elemental more clearly it may be more sensible to add QoL mods like reload , magazine or even ammo capacity over a third element.

4) In your system I would pick the best element and build that as much into my gun as I can. Just forget the rest of the others.  - You are losing out on IPS the more elements you add and you only have so much IPS , you will keep getting diminishing returns on both IPS and the effective bonus damage on that element (sequence of modding will matter as well).

5) Take a single shot gun multi-shot reload -  Depends on the other stats , and we havent talked about all the mods yet , fire rate exists , falloff range exists , punch through exists , you are so used to your typical build where you cram as much multiplying damage as possible that you cannot see the possibilities once Damage is no longer that necessary to pursue.

6) This would all become standard and cost 40-70% of the player base because it just destroyed years of players work - Its a game , not a life savings that is being siphoned away after years of hard workm -  you may not be able to one shot the level 150 grineer heavy eximus with bonus shields, but will it matter little if you difficulty is now equal to level 70.

7)Maybe your young and have not played a lot of games to know how metas pop up - my 6 year old digital game library and even older physical library with games that i have purchased for myself would disagree, and again we are not talking about unemployment lines we are talking about arbitrary stats of objects that can be changed at the whims and fancy of its makers. Metas pop up when they are the better option than the alternative, The problem with the game right now is that the difference between the Meta and the non meta is so huge that the non meta might as well be useless, my intention is to reduce this gap as much as possible.

8 ) Your system is a way to make more catchmoon metas - i fail to see the relevance or even the reason for mentioning catchmoon.

9) and won’t help anything or make the game funnier. Just single shot guns everything else is MR fodder. - your opinion based on incomplete information you didn't even try to grasp fully.

Try to keep an open mind when discussing something it will help you in the long run.

 

I really don't think this is the solution because there is only one overpowered primary and it is the Bramma, the pistols are in a nice place. Nerfing all mods would still leave bramma as the only primary weapon, bramma just needs its stats toned way down. The damage output from players was not so incredibly high because of the mods, but because the weapons got so much better around those mods. Serration and split chamber changes really aren't necessary, and people will just shift there damage to fire rate, reload, status, or crit mods to compensate. You aren't going to get more unique builds, they'll be just as homogeneous as before just look a bit different. People won't start running some of the wacky things like flight speed, or some of the bounce augments, just put more damage in different places. There are plenty of ways to boost damage, serration and split chamber are just the best. Also, nerfing multishot would just make melee even better. Other than Bramma, lenz and a few of the other launchers, primaries are in a good place. 

The exception to this is melee. Melee is only so incredibly overpowered because of the mods. My friend is Mr4 and his Dual skana far out performs most endgame rifles with CO, weeping wounds, drifting contact and dual stats. The solution there would definitely be at the mod level, because a melee with extremely bad stats can still perform at a very high level in spite of its stats. weeping wounds with slash, viral and heat turns any melee into a blender that shreds level 200s, yes, even MR0 slash weapons like Dual Skana. Weeping wounds, drifting contact, blood rush and corrupted charge are definitely the thing that puts melees over the edge. 

TL:DR warframe really doesn't need a huge overhaul to its systems for players to be weaker, they just need to nerf some over powered weapons and melee mods. The game systems that make warframe so unique worked 5 years ago when the weapons were less powerful and there were no acolyte mods for melee.

 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 minutes ago, ThePunkyReason said:

I really don't think this is the solution because there is only one overpowered primary and it is the Bramma, the pistols are in a nice place. Nerfing all mods would still leave bramma as the only primary weapon, bramma just needs its stats toned way down. The damage output from players was not so incredibly high because of the mods, but because the weapons got so much better around those mods. Serration and split chamber changes really aren't necessary, and people will just shift there damage to fire rate, reload, status, or crit mods to compensate. You aren't going to get more unique builds, they'll be just as homogeneous as before just look a bit different. People won't start running some of the wacky things like flight speed, or some of the bounce augments, just put more damage in different places. There are plenty of ways to boost damage, serration and split chamber are just the best. Also, nerfing multishot would just make melee even better. Other than Bramma, lenz and a few of the other launchers, primaries are in a good place. 

The exception to this is melee. Melee is only so incredibly overpowered because of the mods. My friend is Mr4 and his Dual skana far out performs most endgame rifles with CO, weeping wounds, drifting contact and dual stats. The solution there would definitely be at the mod level, because a melee with extremely bad stats can still perform at a very high level in spite of its stats. weeping wounds with slash, viral and heat turns any melee into a blender that shreds level 200s, yes, even MR0 slash weapons like Dual Skana. Weeping wounds, drifting contact, blood rush and corrupted charge are definitely the thing that puts melees over the edge. 

TL:DR warframe really doesn't need a huge overhaul to its systems for players to be weaker, they just need to nerf some over powered weapons and melee mods. The game systems that make warframe so unique worked 5 years ago when the weapons were less powerful and there were no acolyte mods for melee.

 

There are plenty of strong weapons and just because the brama has the highest dmg output like I stated earlier does not make it the best weapon by that regards the aoe and stats play a large role into that the crit chance etc not just the damage. Your argument based on that is flawed 

[0_The_F00l]

1 minute ago, ThePunkyReason said:

TL:DR warframe really doesn't need a huge overhaul to its systems for players to be weaker, they just need to nerf some over powered weapons and melee mods. The game systems that make warframe so unique worked 5 years ago when the weapons were less powerful and there were no acolyte mods for melee.

Situationaly?

Yes. individual weapons too need to be re balanced.

They have already done many changes to the mods to melee , CO was significantly nerfed yet remains strong. Meming strike was deprived of oxygen till it turned into a vegetable. combo counter effects were limited where there are now builds that are excellent even without it.

And when i gave the above examples it was to counter the arguments made , i have my own separate suggestions for melee

pressure point would go the same way as serration,

Bonus Speed would cause follow through damage to be lowered,

elements would be affected the same way as ranged ,

 

these are to name a few.

 

 

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

On 2020-04-04 at 1:03 PM, Loza03 said:

snip

I'll also throw support for this idea. 

[ThePunkyReason]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

There are plenty of strong weapons and just because the brama has the highest dmg output like I stated earlier does not make it the best weapon by that regards the aoe and stats play a large role into that the crit chance etc not just the damage. Your argument based on that is flawed 

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree but it is currently the only weapon that consistantly out competes with DPS frames when I'm just playing some support. If you're in a squad with people not using kuva bramma you get 50-60% damage minimum. I've used many of the best primaries, Kohm with riven, secura penta, vectis prime, rubico prime, old tigris prime, tiberon prime, and none of them even come close to the power of bramma. It really isn't even close. The power level of this one weapon is way far and above all other weapons by a huge margin.

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Situationaly?

Yes. individual weapons too need to be re balanced.

They have already done many changes to the mods to melee , CO was significantly nerfed yet remains strong. Meming strike was deprived of oxygen till it turned into a vegetable. combo counter effects were limited where there are now builds that are excellent even without it.

And when i gave the above examples it was to counter the arguments made , i have my own separate suggestions for melee

pressure point would go the same way as serration,

Bonus Speed would cause follow through damage to be lowered,

elements would be affected the same way as ranged ,

 

these are to name a few.

 

 

Pressure point and the elementals aren't what make melees OP. They had them for ages and where horrible. Corrupted charge and sacrificial steel are what enable heavy attack builds. Weeping wounds with the new status changes gives so much damage that honesty status combo builds are way better than heavy attack builds imo. Proc slash 10 times and viral 5 times in under 2 seconds is way better than heavy attacks. These builds literally don't even run pressure point anymore because of the way it stacks with CO, so under your current model these builds would be nearly as good. Weeping wounds, blood rush, and CO are what enable these builds.

I really don't think talking about nerfing all mods in the game and removing base damage mods is a productive conversation because they will do that. Aside from my disagreements with your ideas (It won't really accomplish what you want, you can get damage in other places, people will find the mod to fill the hole left by base damage mods), there isn't a chance they would ever do this. They have however, nerfed individual mods, so I think talking about individual mods that need to be nerfed (which is already very unpopular) is much more likely and productive.

*before you say by nerfing these melee mods people will fill the hole, just think about how much worse the alternative mods are to weeping wounds, CO, and blood rush.

[(XBOX)WolfKingLeo]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

 

You guys realise this is a child way of thinking right?

What would you rather do? Spend hundreds of resources on new mechanics and additions to balance an existing feature 

 

Or readjust the goddamn existing feature

 

Besides what new "mechanics" are you suggesting that will fix our god mode problem?

Make tougher enemies? Well too bad because THEY JUST NERFED ENEMY SCALING 

Make Ai better?...on what earth in the multiverse is DE's skill were high enough to create higher intelligent Ai?

and nerfing things instead of asking for change is going to help with the problems that we have right now?

Edited April 6, 2020 by (XB1)WolfKingLeo

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

That’s the point 

that’s the point/

rj enemies have the same variables and can have differing values as above. Testing it upon such gives you a more accurate results then the simulcrum

If I’m testing a weapon build the only variable I want changing is my weapons build and nothing else. The Simulcrum is the only place to accurately do that.

[Corvid]

16 hours ago, ArachnidOverlord said:

The warframe community seems to always have the darks souls-type people arguing with the power fantasy people. 

When are people going to remember that there's more to difficulty than the two extremes? Difficulty is a spectrum, not a binary state. Wanting the game to not be mindless does not mean wanting it to be over-the-top hardcore.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

If I’m testing a weapon build the only variable I want changing is my weapons build and nothing else. The Simulcrum is the only place to accurately do that.

But your weapon build in the simulcarcum is always going to perform better than an actual mission when it comes to those higher level enemies as someone who used to use the simulacrum heavily to test builds before I started doing endurance runs you will feel the falloff if the simulacrum could accurately represent scalining of  enemies I’d be supportive of you 

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

But your weapon build in the simulcarcum is always going to perform better than an actual mission when it comes to those higher level enemies as someone who used to use the simulacrum heavily to test builds before I started doing endurance runs you will feel the falloff if the simulacrum could accurately represent scalining of  enemies I’d be supportive of you 

If I'm not mistaken, the Simulacrum also guarantees status procs, so it's not a particularly accurate indicator of performance either way.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

34 minutes ago, ThePunkyReason said:

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree but it is currently the only weapon that consistantly out competes with DPS frames when I'm just playing some support. If you're in a squad with people not using kuva bramma you get 50-60% damage minimum. I've used many of the best primaries, Kohm with riven, secura penta, vectis prime, rubico prime, old tigris prime, tiberon prime, and none of them even come close to the power of bramma. It really isn't even close. The power level of this one weapon is way far and above all other weapons by a huge margin.

Pressure point and the elementals aren't what make melees OP. They had them for ages and where horrible. Corrupted charge and sacrificial steel are what enable heavy attack builds. Weeping wounds with the new status changes gives so much damage that honesty status combo builds are way better than heavy attack builds imo. Proc slash 10 times and viral 5 times in under 2 seconds is way better than heavy attacks. These builds literally don't even run pressure point anymore because of the way it stacks with CO, so under your current model these builds would be nearly as good. Weeping wounds, blood rush, and CO are what enable these builds.

I really don't think talking about nerfing all mods in the game and removing base damage mods is a productive conversation because they will do that. Aside from my disagreements with your ideas (It won't really accomplish what you want, you can get damage in other places, people will find the mod to fill the hole left by base damage mods), there isn't a chance they would ever do this. They have however, nerfed individual mods, so I think talking about individual mods that need to be nerfed (which is already very unpopular) is much more likely and productive.

*before you say by nerfing these melee mods people will fill the hole, just think about how much worse the alternative mods are to weeping wounds, CO, and blood rush.

I’ve out dpsed a brama Saryn with a Rakta cernos- A arca plasmor - the despair (my riven is fun/plus ash is fun) the pupcyst atlas etc. it’s not about doing the most damage in a mission either  

just because the Brahma does the most damage again dosent mean other weapons instantly become unusable as someone who has two bramas one heat the other one rad I can say I prefer and enjoy using other weapons and can perform just as well with them 

but to the melee question what competitors are there to those mentioned mods? De seldom makes good mods and when they do they are either op. But even so with the gladiator mods and other set mods that affect melee they enrich combat. Also de has had thoughts of just implementing damage into weapons and removing serration and other mods similar to that (the base damage mods) and a good amount of the community was upset (like every other change) as to why the didn’t go through with it atm. Look at the community before melee 2.9 Id bet that they are going to weene people off of damage mods soon to get back to that stage of removing them people adapt and I’m sure people would adapt to the removals of based damage mods.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

4 minutes ago, Corvid said:

If I'm not mistaken, the Simulacrum also guarantees status procs, so it's not a particularly accurate indicator of performance either way.

I think it only does that on paused enemies. I don’t go into it anymore tbh. I’d love to not have to sit in mot for hours or prolong disruptions for things to get to a point where I can accurately test my builds but I digress 

[LupoDWolf]

On 2020-04-04 at 1:45 PM, moostar95 said:

agreed, these casuals may be the population of the game. but they are doing so much harm as of killing it. 

Dunno, casual usually aren't the ones arguing to make the game harder

[ThePunkyReason]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I’ve out dpsed a brama Saryn with a Rakta cernos- A arca plasmor - the despair (my riven is fun/plus ash is fun) the pupcyst atlas etc. it’s not about doing the most damage in a mission either  

just because the Brahma does the most damage again dosent mean other weapons instantly become unusable as someone who has two bramas one heat the other one rad I can say I prefer and enjoy using other weapons and can perform just as well with them 

but to the melee question what competitors are there to those mentioned mods? De seldom makes good mods and when they do they are either op. But even so with the gladiator mods and other set mods that affect melee they enrich combat. Also de has had thoughts of just implementing damage into weapons and removing serration and other mods similar to that (the base damage mods) and a good amount of the community was upset (like every other change) as to why the didn’t go through with it atm. Look at the community before melee 2.9 Id bet that they are going to weene people off of damage mods soon to get back to that stage of removing them people adapt and I’m sure people would adapt to the removals of based damage mods.

Your first part is completely anecdotal. The Bramma is empirically and in practice better than literally every other primary. You can pretend that you have the secret sauce for your rakta cernos to out dps people with Bramma. I have almost never not top damaged in a squad when I use bramma, and only am beaten by other people using bramma. Bramma has better single target damage than rakta cernos and hits in a gigantic AoE, there just isn't a single argument you could make saying it is better in any scenario. While frames are not all about DPS, that is the point of weapons, to do DPS, and while there are some exceptions like some with lifesteal or miter to one pop nullies, weapons just DPS. You sound very silly trying to say that rakta cernos can do better than bramma when bramma is better in literally every way except the synd proc. The only way you could out dps a bramma saryn with cernos is if they have really awful builds on both. Please try to make good faith arguments. I normally don't post for this very reason. There is no conceivable way you can make the argument you are making right now.

[MPonder]

How one compare endurance run mobs against simulacrum when it has a limit level of summon and is kind low. Damage reduced might be cause of passives/auras from different mobs/typs that I dunno which ones exist in the game, but I know there is.

About always procs status there, never got that lucky.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

31 minutes ago, ThePunkyReason said:

Your first part is completely anecdotal. The Bramma is empirically and in practice better than literally every other primary. You can pretend that you have the secret sauce for your rakta cernos to out dps people with Bramma. I have almost never not top damaged in a squad when I use bramma, and only am beaten by other people using bramma. Bramma has better single target damage than rakta cernos and hits in a gigantic AoE, there just isn't a single argument you could make saying it is better in any scenario. While frames are not all about DPS, that is the point of weapons, to do DPS, and while there are some exceptions like some with lifesteal or miter to one pop nullies, weapons just DPS. You sound very silly trying to say that rakta cernos can do better than bramma when bramma is better in literally every way except the synd proc. The only way you could out dps a bramma saryn with cernos is if they have really awful builds on both. Please try to make good faith arguments. I normally don't post for this very reason. There is no conceivable way you can make the argument you are making right now.

To retort you stat wise  the RC and the Brahma have a similar stat spread except bramma has more status. 

The dread stat wise can outperform the brama in slash. And etc

i could continue such arguments as to why even though in flat damage  other weapons could outperform the Brahma. It’s not the weapon it’s the player and not just me I’ve seen others outperform said weapon. Also while the Brama is one of the best primaries it lacks other ips  well the (ps) which can allow other weapons to excel above it in terms of late term gameplay. As for blaming ones build on them not getting top dps with the brama dosent that sound ancetodatal itself?  You have no evidence and you’re basing that off of the idea that no other weapon should be able to top the bramma. When in reality it’s not just the weapon but it’s synegies with the frame and weapon. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

33 minutes ago, MPonder said:

How one compare endurance run mobs against simulacrum when it has a limit level of summon and is kind low. Damage reduced might be cause of passives/auras from different mobs/typs that I dunno which ones exist in the game, but I know there is.

About always procs status there, never got that lucky.

Even sortie mobs scale differently from simulacrum mobs with that being said enemies in mission take different damage from simulacrum missions without auras in effect as well 

[o0Despair0o]

On 2020-04-04 at 4:40 PM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

i demand justice for our kill things

Our "kill things" outnumber us by infinity.

That's gotta be enough justice.

[MPonder]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Even sortie mobs scale differently from simulacrum mobs with that being said enemies in mission take different damage from simulacrum missions without auras in effect as well 

Don't beleave that, sorry. Plus sorties have modifications.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Don't beleave that, sorry. Plus sorties have modifications.

Even in a softie without modifications to armor ex a shotgun or bow only sortie they scale harder then regular enemies in sortie. But hey keep it up