Now that enemy scaling is fixed, viral and our unbelievable damage output need nerfing?

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

This does not make any sense. Scaling has no effect on what I'm talking about. We are talking total values here. this 50% is universal. The scaling is the same. You are fighting the same enemies, they just don't die as easily. You don't deal different amounts of damage to different enemies, it's very standard (minus armor and shields of course, but those are separate mechanics, thus not part of this conversation). The synergies don't change. I don't know what you're talking about but you are not thinking mathematically or realistically here.

The recent changes have been an ongoing crusade against player power through direct manipulation of the user's assets. Constant changes in stats, removal or mechanics, hard caps, negation, etc.

Let's do a quick example. A harrow uses a Hema with a tailored synergistic build without using penance in classic warframe player fashion of  "I don't want to". It deals 10766 headshot damage per bullet with a 97.5% status chance of pure viral damage to a grineer. With 97.5% status chance and multishot, you get 10 procs from 2 full bursts. A level 170 Corrupted HG has 96478 Hp and a ttk of .7 seconds (with pure headshots on max buff)
Now, what do you nerf here? Harrow? I'll use chroma then. Hema? I'll use a different weapon. Viral? I'll use corrosive then. How about all three? Then I'll change all three. Now you gotta nerf THAT.
OR
Let's bring the old scaling back for health only. Health goes from 96,478 to 276,262 health. That's 2.86x the total health. Now, let's see what happens to the TTK. It jumps up to 1.74 seconds. Let's calculate how much of a jump that was, 2.49x. Pretty close to my statement right? Why isn't it exact? Because like all viral procs, stacking procs has a ramp up time to maximum dps and the longer you shoot, the more of the top level of dps you get. That's how math works. and tell me, is a 1.7 second ttk all that bad? I almost TRIPLED enemy health and ttk went from 3 bursts to 7 burst, on the "hardest" level acceptable in the game. Is he a bullet sponge?

Hardly. Give me examples of what you would do and I'll mathematically put it into my situation. In fact, give me any situation. I'll give you the results

adding a flat 50% health boost or increase wouldnt do anything to ttk Currently at all. No matter how you look at it and even so it would only apply to late late late enemies. as most enemies get overkilled and we usualy do more damage then they have health. a flat boost dosent solve the problem in any regard.

give you an example.

a corrupted heavy gunner has an estimated ehp of 1,637,589.73 (72,877.26 is health other factors id Dr and Ferrite armor) at level 100  with my current stat spread on my daikyu currently modded does a total of 

167.2 Crit Chance (not using any frame or extra set or passives to boost crit further

a crit multipler of 4.4

1.9 multishot

101.2 status 

198.1 Impact

988.3 Puncture

741.2- slash

5.1k Viral on one build Corrosive on the next and  a viral heat build on last

all total up to around 13.5-14k in total damage

Taking in factor of bleed procs which usually hit for 13-20k a viral or corrsive proc that only needs to proc once or twice 

and viral heat each test ive just used only required 1-2 shots each to slay a heavy gunner. assuming the bleed proc does not hit and kill them on the first arrow.

now lets go ahead and bump that hp to that flat %50  a level 8 heavy gunner has 700 flesh for hp given that stat boost it only sums up to 1150 health at level one 

now lets scale that up to level 100 currently given that at level 100 you have 72k hp through cloned flesh  and starting at sevenhundred you add about 728 hp per level meaning up to level 100 roughly there is a 1.0411% increase in health per level.

at level 100 with your given solution the health would be at aprox 118517.85. thats a little over double the health given at orignal level. Prob solved? no because if youre not scaling the armor or shields up as well than my weapon still bypasses those damage reductions all the same and the ttk is effectivly the same on said weapon if not the same literally only about a third or 1 second or two longer  most weapons overkill the target in warframe  which means Damage reduction has to negate it since numerically we do so much damage to health with things like status Ips and crit. speaking of which with an orange crit  with my current weapon i hit for ab ~42-50k before you take into consdieration things like status procs just crit alone halfed the enemy health. your suggestion dosent solve the problem like you say ours dosent

 

but thats not good enough?

using my Kronen Prime Etc and more weapons ( i can go  into much much much much much much more detail if youd like) even with your Mentioned solution they still die incredibly fast if not the same.

im calling for them to actually balance the game so things like this dont arise. Viral is leagues above every other status so again. like ive said before in this thread id prefer they work on it now rather than let us get used to it so they can nerf it later when they dont want it to function like such anymore. im also activley suggesting they buff the other elements accordlingly while tuning down viral in efforts to further balance elemental.

There is always going to be those players that will Migrate to what they feel is the best or most meta. and there will always be meta in games as nothing is perfectly balanced but like the tombfinger when a large enough margin or your playerbase is using the same thing it hurts diversity etc. ( i also stated similar arguments during that time. dont outright gut the tombfinger but bring it inline with other secondaries and buff those other secondaries (bring the problem down some bring the weak links up some until you find the middle ground)

[(PSN)Crixus044]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

adding a flat 50% health boost or increase wouldnt do anything to ttk Currently at all. No matter how you look at it and even so it would only apply to late late late enemies. as most enemies get overkilled and we usualy do more damage then they have health. a flat boost dosent solve the problem in any regard.

give you an example.

a corrupted heavy gunner has an estimated ehp of 1,637,589.73 (72,877.26 is health other factors id Dr and Ferrite armor) at level 100  with my current stat spread on my daikyu currently modded does a total of 

167.2 Crit Chance (not using any frame or extra set or passives to boost crit further

a crit multipler of 4.4

1.9 multishot

101.2 status 

198.1 Impact

988.3 Puncture

741.2- slash

5.1k Viral on one build Corrosive on the next and  a viral heat build on last

all total up to around 13.5-14k in total damage

Taking in factor of bleed procs which usually hit for 13-20k a viral or corrsive proc that only needs to proc once or twice 

and viral heat each test ive just used only required 1-2 shots each to slay a heavy gunner. assuming the bleed proc does not hit and kill them on the first arrow.

now lets go ahead and bump that hp to that flat %50  a level 8 heavy gunner has 700 flesh for hp given that stat boost it only sums up to 1150 health at level one 

now lets scale that up to level 100 currently given that at level 100 you have 72k hp through cloned flesh  and starting at sevenhundred you add about 728 hp per level meaning up to level 100 roughly there is a 1.0411% increase in health per level.

at level 100 with your given solution the health would be at aprox 118517.85. thats a little over double the health given at orignal level. Prob solved? no because if youre not scaling the armor or shields up as well than my weapon still bypasses those damage reductions all the same and the ttk is effectivly the same on said weapon if not the same literally only about a third or 1 second or two longer  most weapons overkill the target in warframe  which means Damage reduction has to negate it since numerically we do so much damage to health with things like status Ips and crit. speaking of which with an orange crit  with my current weapon i hit for ab ~42-50k before you take into consdieration things like status procs just crit alone halfed the enemy health. your suggestion dosent solve the problem like you say ours dosent

 

but thats not good enough?

using my Kronen Prime Etc and more weapons ( i can go  into much much much much much much more detail if youd like) even with your Mentioned solution they still die incredibly fast if not the same.

im calling for them to actually balance the game so things like this dont arise. Viral is leagues above every other status so again. like ive said before in this thread id prefer they work on it now rather than let us get used to it so they can nerf it later when they dont want it to function like such anymore. im also activley suggesting they buff the other elements accordlingly while tuning down viral in efforts to further balance elemental.

There is always going to be those players that will Migrate to what they feel is the best or most meta. and there will always be meta in games as nothing is perfectly balanced but like the tombfinger when a large enough margin or your playerbase is using the same thing it hurts diversity etc. ( i also stated similar arguments during that time. dont outright gut the tombfinger but bring it inline with other secondaries and buff those other secondaries (bring the problem down some bring the weak links up some until you find the middle ground)

What are you talking about? Lol you said it does 20k per bleed proc right? Well in that case, with a single viral proc, thats 40k which needs 2 ticks to take down 72k health. Against 118k health, it needs 3 ticks. How many more ticks is that? +50% lmao
You've proven my point.
Give me this Daikyu build, I'll run these numbers for ya in their actuality. I need to know draw speed, reload speed, and other factors. Give me this build and I'lll show you the actual difference

[0_The_F00l]

@(PS4)Crixus044 i believe you mean "effective" HP (including armor and shield reduction) or effective Damage (post crit and status changes application over an average period) if that is the case you and @(PS4)sweatshawp are not really arguing just not able to articulate your points very well.

 

Just to add:

Enemy EHP and damage scale with levels in a curve (it reaches a flatline eventually after the changes)

Player EHP and Damage rises in steps and can be multiplicative (Crit , status , ability boosts etc) but has a very definite cap.

 

Its not easy to calculate effective health & damage of players cause of all the variables involved.

Edited April 7, 2020 by 0_The_F00l

[(PSN)Crixus044]

4 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

@(PS4)Crixus044 i believe you mean "effective" HP (including armor and shield reduction) or effective Damage (post crit and status changes application over an average period) if that is the case you and @(PS4)sweatshawp are not really arguing just not able to articulate your points very well.

No I specifically mean Hp. I'm of the personal belief that HP is the most underused modification by the devs, who rely too much on armor and shields. Health has no work around, and all modifiers to health are equally effective no matter how much health they have, because all other attributes are simply multipliers of health, minus sheilds, unless you try to 1hko. That's what Effective health is. Believe me, warframe math is my specialty. It's what I'm known for.

That's the funny though about Hp and EHp though. raising Hp by 50% ALSO raises EHp by 50%. That might be where sweat is getting confused.

Edited April 7, 2020 by (PS4)Crixus044

[0_The_F00l]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

That's the funny though about Hp and EHp though. raising Hp by 50% ALSO raises EHp by 50%. That might be where sweat is getting confused.

That is not true "completely" as the rise is not independent of armor and shield increases.

unless you are saying the armor and shields remain the same or is re calculated to make the EHP rise at 50%.

Edited April 7, 2020 by 0_The_F00l

[(PSN)Crixus044]

6 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That is not true "completely" as the rise is not independent of armor and shield increases.

unless you are saying the armor and shields remain the same or is re calculated to make the EHP rise at 50%.

Yes exactly. IT's ONLY a rise in health. Not LEVELS. I'm not raising levels.
Lt me give you an example. Level 100 CHG
(1+.4*(100-8)^.75)*500= 6441 armor
Health multiplier = (armor+300)/300
(6441+300)/300=22.47x health
Level 100 CHG Health=72877
72877*22.47=1637546.19
Multiplying health ONLY multiplies the 72877, not the armor modifier, so it's an exact 1.5x multiplier

Edited April 7, 2020 by (PS4)Crixus044

[0_The_F00l]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Yes exactly. IT's ONLY a rise in health. Not LEVELS. I'm not raising levels.

That is where scaling issue which is highlighted comes in the picture.

you would again need to check on how the bonus to health affects enemies at the low , mid and high levels and will absolutely not be a linear curve.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

6 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That is where scaling issue which is highlighted comes in the picture.

you would again need to check on how the bonus to health affects enemies at the low , mid and high levels and will absolutely not be a linear curve.

It is a linear increase it's it's the health itself being changed. That's the thing. I'm talking total, which is the same as saying I'm raising the base health, not the scaling formula. Now, if we were to change the scaling formula, it would have to account for many of things, but the domain is limited by the levels in the game, with the max accepted level being around 170.
I don't know what you're thinking of, but I'm very clearly and plainly saying my part. I hope this little explanation helps along with the edits to my previous posts. Please look at my example way above and I encourage sweat to show his build so that I can run the numbers and prove my point and get done with this

Edited April 7, 2020 by (PS4)Crixus044

[0_The_F00l]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

It is a linear increase it's it's the health itself being changed. That's the thing. I'm talking total, which is the same as saying I'm raising the base health, not the scaling formula. Now, if we were to change the scaling formula, it would have to account for many of things, but the domain is limited by the levels in the game, with the max accepted level being around 170.
I don't know what you're thinking of, but I'm very clearly and plainly saying my part. I hope this little explanation helps along with the edits to my previous posts. Please look at my example way above and I encourage sweat to show his build so that I can run the numbers and prove my point and get done with this

I get you and your calculations are not incorrect (i haven't really cross verified them but don't really see them as being off),

Just that you are talking about changing one thing while everything else remains the same.

You are just making the curve start at a higher point than before.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

12 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I get you and your calculations are not incorrect (i haven't really cross verified them but don't really see them as being off),

Just that you are talking about changing one thing while everything else remains the same.

You are just making the curve start at a higher point than before.

As a begining example, yes. I personally have advocated that increased health is good.
The real reason I brought this up was a comparison of increasing health to decresing dps.
The original statement was to show that if you had a single enemy, raising his health by 50% would be roughly the same as decreasing your dps by 33%. Thus all this talk about nerfing damage JUST BECAUSE they nerfed health is pointless, because as I pointed out, there are SO MANY VARIABLES that go into that damage value that it's easier and more universal to simply raise the health of that same enemy to increase ttk. It avoids the whack-a-mole effect that DE has fallen into, where they nerf one thing, we jump to another. They nerf that thing, we jump to another, and round n round we go.

As a secondary, point, raising health also avoids the issue of 1hko weapons that completely negate the effects of ttk and dps, since their KPS is tied to fire rate and/or aiming time, whereas high rof weapons have a much lower kps and much higher ttk, despite the paper making it look like their dps is equal. Would you mind if I dive into a mathematical sample of this issue?

Edited April 7, 2020 by (PS4)Crixus044

[0_The_F00l]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

 Would you mind if I dive into a mathematical sample of this issue?

I wouldn't mind 🙂

I like deep dive discussions.

But i already agree with your core concept, which is :

Buffing enemy health is not that different from reducing player weapon damage (properly calculated as its not 1:1 scale).

But as already mentioned , Enemy health rises with levels , player damage shoots up with mods and stays there if min maxed optimally.

(both values can be modified a bit using warframe abilities - that is just a different discussion to have).

Edited April 7, 2020 by 0_The_F00l
optimally to be mentioned

[MPonder]

Pointless discussion. None of Warframe current star chart missions can be made difficult no matter what you do to players damage or enemies EHP. They can only be made more boring and annoying like Grendel ones, that was not difficult, just annoying long.

Everything is balanced around basic, BASIC mods, and Rivens exist. If you kind made things more "difficult" little by little with players nerf on star chart, people might even start to complain at some point about "p2w", because truth be told, good Riven are expensive as #*!% and a little Money helps on that, specially on discount login day reward. If you put a lot of time in farming PL, you can buy them, but do most people do???

It would also give people less options on Warframe choices, which most people like but I deslike, cause if you can use any xit in most missions, means it is horribly easy (I'm talking about continuosly nerfing the player, not just one).

People have already 0 reason to progress. "As a new player, Finally start surviving Kuva flood, Sorties, Arbitration, what's next? Nothing". Then you nerf player's progress on top of that and you are like "why the phuck I even put time into it".

Warframe can only get some difficult with a new content that's actually good, that's really hard to expect after the last patches, since it was all full of lies.

[RiceHat_]

The game is a looter shooter so plowing through hordes of enemies is good plus the game gives a lot of grinding time for the players, I dont wanna spend 30 minutes or a hour in just one nodes on a planet or mission when I have to do it 10 or 100 times to farm. Nerfing viral or something in the future wont solve it. Reminds me of Destiny 2 but this isnt it. Hmmmmm🤔

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Just now, 0_The_F00l said:

I wouldn't mind 🙂

I like deep dive discussions.

But i already agree with your core concept, which is :

Buffing enemy health is not that different from reducing player weapon damage (properly calculated as its not 1:1 scale).

But as already mentioned , Enemy health rises with levels , player damage shoots up with mods and stays there.

(both values can be modified a bit using warframe abilities - that is just a different discussion to have).

Ok, so I've preached this phenomenon with many players and it seems to open some eyes as it did mine when I first igured it out.
LEts say you have a weapon that deals 100 damage and shoots 1 round a second.
You have another weapon that deals 10 damage and shoot 10 rounds a second.
Is there dps equal?
100 damage at 1 round per second, that's 100 damage per second right?
and 10 damage at 10 rounds a second is ALSO 100 damage per second right?
WRRRROOOOONGG!!!!!!
This doesn't apply for charge weapons as much, but for weapons like snipers, auto rifles and such, time starts when you pull the trigger.

For weapon 1, you pull the trigger at 0 seconds, time starts. You shoot at the 0 second mark, then exactly 1 second after, you fire another shot. That's 2 shots in 1 second.
That means, after 1 second, you dealt 200 damage, in 1 second., better said as 200 dps. Double what it looks like on paper. After 2 second, you've fired 3 shots for 300 damage in 2 seconds, or 150 dps. This trend continues as time goes on, and you are always doing more than 100 dps

For weapon 2, you pull the trigger at 0 seconds, time starts. You shoot at the 0 second mark, then exactly 1 second after, you fire 10 more shots, since you shoot 1 shots per second. This means that after 1 second, you've dealt 110 damage.

So in 1 second, the 100 damage weapon dealt 200 dps while the 10 damage weapon dealt 110, even though on paper, their dps looks the same.

This is called the dps gradient. where x = number of bullets fired, DPS (x) = (damage*x)/((1/fire rate)*x-1). At 1 bullet fired, the dps is undefined since no time has passed and dividing by 0 is death to all. This is why 1hko is so strong in any game aka shotguns in most pvp shooters.

How does this translate to ttk and kps? Well if it takes 1 shot to kill an enemy, then there's no time spent on that enemy to kill it. Only time spent is the time to line up the shot and the time to move to the next target. If you can take aim and swap between targets within the fire rate's limits, then your kps is gonna be the fire rate+1.

Take those 2 weapons again. Let's say you got 4 enemies with 80 health and it only takes .5 seconds to swap between targets.

The first weapon kills in 1 shot, thus no time is spent in killing it. You kill for first guy, take .5 seconds to swap to the next target, but you can only fire at 1 per second, thus you wait and fire the next shot, rinse and repeat. Since the transition between enemes is less than the fire rate, the ttk for those 4 enemies is exactly 3 seconds with the first weapon. That's an effective dps of 4*80/3=106.66 dps

The second weapon needs 8 shots, which take .7 seconds. Then you must swap to the next enemy, which takes .5 secondsand shoot for .7 more seconds. .7*4+.5*3=4.3 seconds to kill those 4 enemies. That's 74.42 dps

Thus, the first weapon is better. This is why raising health helps a lot more than simple dps reduction, because it helps balance out the dps gradients and gives higher rate of fire weapons a chance to compete and use their strengths, such as status application. high damage weapons may deal more damage over time, but higher rof weapons apply status much faster, allowing for dps multiplication, like viral stacks or DoT stacks. As I said earlier, proc stacking has a major play in effective dps. Viral is a 4.25x damage bonus, thus if you reach this number in .5 seconds with something like a beam weapon, then if you fire for 3.5 more seconds, you're effectively doing 4.046875x dps over those 4 seconds. This is why a combo of status applicator beams with a heavy hitting dps weapon is the strongest weapon combo in the game. It combines the best of both weapon types for ultimate synergy

[_Urakaze_]

we need other ways to make enemy more survivable.

e.g. dodging, equipment like hand held shields, increased movement speed, etc

[ikkabotz]

I'm sorry but I don't agree enemy scaling was fixed, everything still melts throughout the starchart, there's often no reason at all to explore existing planets or tilesets when it gets steamrolled

Edited April 7, 2020 by ikkabotz

[Lakais]

A personal opinion I have is that enemy scaling can't be fixed as long as it exists. By unintentional side effect of the design, enemy scaling will break at some point. And everything attached to enemy scaling will break with it. 

Damage types are an interesting grandfathered system. In that they don't need to be this complicated. They built in this complexity because it was cool at the time and it still kind of is. But considering we have 13 damage types (16 with tau, void and true) trying to balance them to make them unique and useful but in a way where NOT having them isn't a complete game-stopper is a tall order. 

As for armor vs shields. The fact that shields have a flat damage reduction is a neat design. But personally what I would like to see with armor is that they are separate from health. That they are basically segmented shields that you can break before you get to an enemy's health and that you can bypass by going for gaps in the armor. 

Basically a shield would be a complete defense that you have to remove totally to even get to an enemy's health. Armor would be an incomplete defense in that it would be tougher to break then shields, but it would have gaps and through focused fire, you could break off segments to expose the squishy health meat inside. So in a way, I would look at the Ambulas for inspiration. 

I honestly do not subscribe to the notion that just bumping up the star chart level range is the answer to this apparent problem we are having. Giving us a optional mission difficulty selector would be great, but I honestly think that the default level range of the game is up to 50. And personally up to that is where I have the most fun because I can make mistakes and I don't need to bring super-specialized loadouts. I can go a bit weird and put more focus into ninja stuff and not into "oh sh*t oh f**k, gottagofast!".

I can see the appeal of higher level missions but I honestly think that this kind of focus that people seem to have at playing those high levels is detrimental to the collective mentality and style of the game. This focusing on raw stats and highly curated simulacrum tests based judgements where jumping numbers are king, feels like it's going sideways away from what Warframe's gameplay is supposed to be. I implore anyone who feels like trying new or old weapons in the game to at first go into your options and turn off affinity and damage numbers. Then you'll be more focused on the shooting and less on the numbers. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Lakais

[dreamycreampie]

On 2020-04-06 at 8:50 PM, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Well. You can play disruption 

go to mot or any other t4 

rj in the last section

its actually many easy to see how a weapon can actually perform. Even Steve has had gripes with the simulacrum and even at one point considered removing it. (Not a bright idea) he had stated the simulacrum dosent portray weapons accurately and other things about now showing the game off. Think about that Steve admitting such? Granted they don’t play their own game enough but even with such info he was right due to the nature of a horde base game with randomized enemies you going into the simulacrum shows no true accuracies other then this weapon does this damage and prepping for builds. On paper it sounds nice in practice it dosent due to the randomness of spawns how scaling actually works in missions vs training rooms and more the simulcrum holds no weight in how viable a build is.

I don't believe/understand how you can not agree that testing damage numbers in a room where you can remove random factors is the legit way to do a proper damage testing instead of going to mot and report whatever you feel like when you're playing

[(PSN)Crixus044]

3 hours ago, Lakais said:

And personally up to that is where I have the most fun because I can make mistakes and I don't need to bring super-specialized loadouts.

This is called causal gaming. It's a fine and respectable style. You're a casual, but you're just one kind of player. They're are plenty of players that like to push their limits, get stronger, pit themselves against the strongest and see how well they can do, how good their build is. It's a competitive mentality, but it's an essential part to any game. These are the endgame players. Believe me, there are plenty of them.

It's not part of the snowflake crap, where nobody competes and everyone's a winner. THAT is detrimental to the collective mentality of the community. Adding in harder missions really won't change much in the game. Think about it, we've gone 8 years with the same levels. How is adding a more difficult mission gonna change that? If you can get to MR 25 with casual levels, none of that will change. If you like your level range, you can keep your level change. If you want easy content, you can go to earth. If you want higher level content, here you go. You can't hate on one player's style just because it doesn't match your own.

If you add a difficulty modifier that has the old level scaling and missions starting from 100, you'll have tons of players that can do it. All those "cheesy" loadouts that make the game feel trivial, this is where they aren't cheesy. The meta is different here, everything has a chance to succeed if you're good enough. Wanna see if you can get the mk-1 braton through this more difficult level? Give it a shot. But asking for damage nerfs after enemies recieved a health nerf is a big mistake.

Edited April 7, 2020 by (PS4)Crixus044

[0_The_F00l]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Ok, so I've preached this phenomenon with many players and it seems to open some eyes as it did mine when I first igured it out.
LEts say you have a weapon that deals 100 damage and shoots 1 round a second.
You have another weapon that deals 10 damage and shoot 10 rounds a second.
Is there dps equal?
100 damage at 1 round per second, that's 100 damage per second right?
and 10 damage at 10 rounds a second is ALSO 100 damage per second right?
WRRRROOOOONGG!!!!!!
This doesn't apply for charge weapons as much, but for weapons like snipers, auto rifles and such, time starts when you pull the trigger.

For weapon 1, you pull the trigger at 0 seconds, time starts. You shoot at the 0 second mark, then exactly 1 second after, you fire another shot. That's 2 shots in 1 second.
That means, after 1 second, you dealt 200 damage, in 1 second., better said as 200 dps. Double what it looks like on paper. After 2 second, you've fired 3 shots for 300 damage in 2 seconds, or 150 dps. This trend continues as time goes on, and you are always doing more than 100 dps

For weapon 2, you pull the trigger at 0 seconds, time starts. You shoot at the 0 second mark, then exactly 1 second after, you fire 10 more shots, since you shoot 1 shots per second. This means that after 1 second, you've dealt 110 damage.

So in 1 second, the 100 damage weapon dealt 200 dps while the 10 damage weapon dealt 110, even though on paper, their dps looks the same.

This is called the dps gradient. where x = number of bullets fired, DPS (x) = (damage*x)/((1/fire rate)*x-1). At 1 bullet fired, the dps is undefined since no time has passed and dividing by 0 is death to all. This is why 1hko is so strong in any game aka shotguns in most pvp shooters.

How does this translate to ttk and kps? Well if it takes 1 shot to kill an enemy, then there's no time spent on that enemy to kill it. Only time spent is the time to line up the shot and the time to move to the next target. If you can take aim and swap between targets within the fire rate's limits, then your kps is gonna be the fire rate+1.

Take those 2 weapons again. Let's say you got 4 enemies with 80 health and it only takes .5 seconds to swap between targets.

The first weapon kills in 1 shot, thus no time is spent in killing it. You kill for first guy, take .5 seconds to swap to the next target, but you can only fire at 1 per second, thus you wait and fire the next shot, rinse and repeat. Since the transition between enemes is less than the fire rate, the ttk for those 4 enemies is exactly 3 seconds with the first weapon. That's an effective dps of 4*80/3=106.66 dps

The second weapon needs 8 shots, which take .7 seconds. Then you must swap to the next enemy, which takes .5 secondsand shoot for .7 more seconds. .7*4+.5*3=4.3 seconds to kill those 4 enemies. That's 74.42 dps

Thus, the first weapon is better. This is why raising health helps a lot more than simple dps reduction, because it helps balance out the dps gradients and gives higher rate of fire weapons a chance to compete and use their strengths, such as status application. high damage weapons may deal more damage over time, but higher rof weapons apply status much faster, allowing for dps multiplication, like viral stacks or DoT stacks. As I said earlier, proc stacking has a major play in effective dps. Viral is a 4.25x damage bonus, thus if you reach this number in .5 seconds with something like a beam weapon, then if you fire for 3.5 more seconds, you're effectively doing 4.046875x dps over those 4 seconds. This is why a combo of status applicator beams with a heavy hitting dps weapon is the strongest weapon combo in the game. It combines the best of both weapon types for ultimate synergy

Theoretically correct for the set universe that you have considered. 

However you are missing multiple variables. 

What is the travel time? 

What is the reload speed of the weapon? 

What is the accuracy? 

What is the ammo economy?

What kind of ammo is needed?

What is the "cost of missing a shot" between the two? 

What is the over damage (damage of the weapon subtracted of the effective health of the enemy) ? 

Also not sure how big of a time duration you have taken to determine the average delta. 

As the limit of the time duration reaches Infinity, Your delta (dps gradient) approaches zero in either scenario.

Theoretically sound for an example to determine the effect of high per shot weapons, but practically lacking in considering all details. The same issue I mentioned earlier, cannot consider only one attribute in vaccum. Need to consider multiple. 

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

On 2020-04-04 at 9:36 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

“Let’s nerf our damage output and completely nullify the purpose of the enemy armor nerf”
 

You’re just actively seeking to ruin the game now. And I don’t appreciate it.

You can always nerf one aspect of our damage and bump up our damage somewhere else to combat it. Give and take.

For example, Blast still has an awful Proc and Radiation should probably just be our raw Armor damage modifier. Keep the enemies shooting at each other bit for the CC but take the damage to others out, enemy units are hardly ever going to kill each other in a decent amount of time. Instead, make it so we deal a max of 200% extra Armor damage (the same value Viral should also probably be at). Make Blast deal increased damage based on the amount of enemies hit while the Proc is in effect. Cap that at 100%.

Gas should also have the clouds scale by making it so enemies that hang in the cloud will take tick damage faster and faster, scaling by each Proc the enemy is affected by.

Directly nerfing something isn't usually a good thing, but nerfing something and buffing others things I feel is a much better idea.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Theoretically correct for the set universe that you have considered. 

However you are missing multiple variables. 

What is the travel time? 

What is the reload speed of the weapon? 

What is the accuracy? 

What is the ammo economy?

What kind of ammo is needed?

What is the "cost of missing a shot" between the two? 

What is the over damage (damage of the weapon subtracted of the effective health of the enemy) ? 

Also not sure how big of a time duration you have taken to determine the average delta. 

As the limit of the time duration reaches Infinity, Your delta (dps gradient) approaches zero in either scenario.

Theoretically sound for an example to determine the effect of high per shot weapons, but practically lacking in considering all details. The same issue I mentioned earlier, cannot consider only one attribute in vaccum. Need to consider multiple. 

As it reaches infinity, it reaches 100 for both weapons. 100 is the limit of the formula, but it never will be exactly. The formula is dps (s)= D×FR+D/s. D is damage,  FR is fire rate. The limit of the formula is D×FR, but it never touches and the higher D/S will always be 10x higher than the lower.

The time variable doesn't matter since it's dependent on kills. 

Travel time is a negligible stat for time since most encounters happen with 20m of eachother and most weapons are hitscan, with long range weapons having a high enough speed to compensate. Arca plasmor has 60m/s speed, but 30m maximum falloff, thus most encounters will be within a 1/6th to 1/3rd seconds to account for travel time. Travel time also affects 1hko weapons only once, since the travel time is compensated by aim time and fire rate delay. Meaning, you can shoot 1 dude and swap to another while it's mid-flight. This only delays ttk at the very end of an encounter. Lanka has 200m, bows have 70-100. This negatively affects high rof weapons more since their travel time is usually lower, but still within manageable reach. If you are of the style to affirm kills before moving on, then you can tack that on as I do for my bow TTK formula.

Reload has an equal play as both weapons reload, unless you got a melee weapon, vectis/vectis prime, bow, arcanes, void buff, etc.

Ammo economy falls in favor of 1hko weapons

Ammo regen mods are mandatory anyways, so no need to worry ammo type.

Cost of missing a shot is a big factor though and I account for that with my more complex formula. Again, this was a simple explanation if the phenomenon of 1hko weapons on dps. Essentially, you have a re-aim period of .1 seconds, but for high damage weapons, it's limited by your fire rate. I use formulas for weapon accuracy to determine when this benefit falls off. I usually have an accuracy of 93%, but I account for casual style with a 1 in 5 chance. In the case of 5 enemies at 80 health, weapon A missed once for a total time of 5 seconds. This dps is then 80 effective dps. The HOF weapon when perfect against 5 enemies is still 5.5 seconds. High rof misses more due to bloom and recoil, but let's say you're having a good day and miss 1 out of 10. In order for you to match or exceed the ttk of the heavier hitting weapon at 80% accuracy, you'd need to have perfect accuracy for anything above 5 enemies per encounter. With 90% accuracy on your high rof weapon, you'd have to fight LESS than 50 enemies to be better. This of course is just a simplification of my formula, but it gets the idea across

Accuracy in warframe is a stat that again, favors high damage weapons, since accuracy is the rate of bloom in a weapon's spread over time. Meaning the first shot is always on point, then degrades. High rof weapons are more heavily affected by this.

Time duration doesn't matter, it's variable to the number of enemies.

The whole point though is that 1hko weapons perform better than high rof weapons for ttk and raising health will turn those 1hko weapons into simply higher damage per second weapons with competition from high status per second weapons aka high rate of fire weapons, balancing them out.

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by (PS4)Crixus044

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

On 2020-04-06 at 2:07 PM, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

We could be but you said rj enemies were challenging i said a well thought out build makes them trivial. Me trying to flex would be I still one-2 shot them (you can if your build is ok ) and it seems like you can’t

 but you’re welcome!

Boy you're over here pulling out the measuring tape and I already said no thank you. Learn what no means.

[(PSN)TrollyThyTrinity]

All the Numbers( appreciation ) can easily get flip with these 2 words “Challenging”  and “Challenge”

Challenging is what people want ask for an think that it’s the fix for the “ Boredom” 

if you think , that you’re gonna Sweat it out , wreck your brain ,or  gasp for Air for a Challenge ....... we been waiting for over have a decade. 

The game is all about efficiency as of late. yes efficiency is boring I guess , but if you can crunch a Destiny’s 2 18 hour World first into 15-30min in Warframe content. You won’t be satisfied,  they don’t even really want you in a mission for no longer than 20 mins or  20 Waves 

 

now the The “Challenge” is Here a list of things complete them and we will bring your “challenges” to Warframe.

see now that is the reality and we’re too far gone on the matter 

 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

10 hours ago, dreamycreampie said:

I don't believe/understand how you can not agree that testing damage numbers in a room where you can remove random factors is the legit way to do a proper damage testing instead of going to mot and report whatever you feel like when you're playing

I used to test my builds via simularcrum but when it comes down to endurance runs those test can be heavily inaacurate so i stopped. im not against the room but id like them to properly scale enemies in there