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(XB1)A Sad Valkyr

Vazarin's way too intense nerf

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Posted (edited)

Okay, so I think everyone can agree Vaz's healing capabilties are pretty broken. I'll be the first to admit it's the only reason I use Vaz over schools like Zen, but the severity of this nerf is absurd. 500 health restored over a period of time will utterly kill Vazarin's use across the board. Sure, it's fine for regular Warframes, but that just makes it a panic button. An entire focus school, degraded into an "Oh S***" button. 

I agree Vaz could use a nerf, as it makes defending things trivial at best, but this is basically stripping the school of its major benefit in one move. If you want to reduce its healing, make it a percentage. Surprisingly enough the high level defense targets have slightly more than 500 health, and dashing through them would essentially just be giving them invincibility for 5 seconds, because the healing would be so minimal that it wouldn't cover a single shot's worth of damage in most cases.

Edited by (XB1)A Sad Valkyr
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14 minutes ago, (XB1)A Sad Valkyr said:

. Surprisingly enough the high level defense targets have slightly more than 500 health, and dashing through them would essentially just be giving them invincibility for 5 seconds, because the healing would be so minimal that it wouldn't cover a single shot's worth of damage in most cases.

As I read it, they are removing the invulnerability from Defense targets - it will just be the 500 health over 5 seconds.

I agree that Vaz makes defense missions somewhat trivial. I use it myself both for the healing and the instant revives. But the suggest nerf goes way beyond that. I would have thought something like a 20-25% heal over time, non stackable would be sufficient. I know that someone else has suggested 5%, but I think that might be too low, particularly for solo players. 

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It 'trivialises' timed defenses, assuming you can dash through the target and some enemies in order to gain the energy back that you can sustain an uninterrupted void mode and the dashes to refresh the protection themselves.

Any defense during which you need to actually also engage in combat, is not trivialised. It's a short time window of consistent, engaging upkeep in order to go into Operator, refresh the protection, return to frame, and take a few potshots/swings before your next rotation is due. That's the opposite of trivial. It's strong but justifiable. Trivial is pressing one or two buttons every minute, with minimal need to even point in the right spot. And I say this with no hate for Limbo, because it's just DEsign that makes such cheese necessary for solo players sometimes.

Protective Dash is fine, because there's a small subset of frames that could achieve Pure Prevention of damage anyway. All Protective Dash did is let us access that same potential by limiting a different part of our loadout, and putting in a greater effort - losing Zenurik, but getting to use whatever frame we liked, provided we could maintain that rotation.
Any Pure Prevention makes healing essentially irrelevant, because it scales up to the point where the target can be one-shot and any healing value would falter long before that, so any scale of healing just changes the floor of where those prevention effects are necessary regardless.

Because you're dancing in and out of Operator, it's inherently more fallible, too. Timing issues. Lag here. A knockdown. Getting clipped as you step out, forcing you back to frame without refreshing the buff. Missing the dash hitbox.

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The 500 health stat I feel like is a thing yes and we should focus on the fact that DE wants to remove its 5 second invulnerability from defense objectives.

This post is beautiful.

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I’d also like to add that Volt Capacitance nerfs to hit a bit too hard. I dont think Volt deserves that big of a nerf

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14 hours ago, (XB1)A Sad Valkyr said:

Okay, so I think everyone can agree Vaz's healing capabilties are pretty broken. I'll be the first to admit it's the only reason I use Vaz over schools like Zen, but the severity of this nerf is absurd. 500 health restored over a period of time will utterly kill Vazarin's use across the board. Sure, it's fine for regular Warframes, but that just makes it a panic button. An entire focus school, degraded into an "Oh S***" button. 

I agree Vaz could use a nerf, as it makes defending things trivial at best, but this is basically stripping the school of its major benefit in one move. If you want to reduce its healing, make it a percentage. Surprisingly enough the high level defense targets have slightly more than 500 health, and dashing through them would essentially just be giving them invincibility for 5 seconds, because the healing would be so minimal that it wouldn't cover a single shot's worth of damage in most cases.

I just searched all the scarlet spear update/hotfixes and found no mention of a change to protective dash. I'm assuming you heard this somewhere else and I'm curious about the source. 

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5 minutes ago, z3us32610 said:

I just searched all the scarlet spear update/hotfixes and found no mention of a change to protective dash. I'm assuming you heard this somewhere else and I'm curious about the source. 

did you look at the dev workshop on healing defence targets?

 

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1 hour ago, (XB1)WolfKingLeo said:

did you look at the dev workshop on healing defence targets?

 

Ahh I did not, thank you!

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Posted (edited)

It's for static defense objects. Says in the workshop topic that it is for static defense objects. The things that can have 45,000 hp.

Vazarin can heal 60% of that 45,000 hp in 5 seconds.

Since healing will be allowed by a lot of people after the change what is the point of making one method do 20,000+hp heals over everything else. I saw someone on youtube complaining about the change and it made them look so selfish and spoiled.

I'll end my post by saying I use vazarin. I used protective dash to solo a lich defense mission where the lich even appeared. It was trivial.

 

 

Edited by Redfeather75
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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, _Euphoria_ said:

I’d also like to add that Volt Capacitance nerfs to hit a bit too hard. I dont think Volt deserves that big of a nerf

It's not being nerfed. The limited effect described is what's going to be extended to inanimate defensible objects that are presently not affected at all by Capacitance, so it's strictly a buff. Otherwise it's unchanged.

Edited by CopperBezel
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10 hours ago, Redfeather75 said:

I'll end my post by saying I use vazarin. I used protective dash to solo a lich defense mission where the lich even appeared. It was trivial.

Why shouldn't there be things to make certain missions trivial? Especially if you have those things in different loadout slots. Hitting Vazarin this hard not only promotes the Zenurik hyper-meta, but enforces certain frame choices on any defensive mission type.

Well, I guess the return of the Frost/Mesa/Trin meta defense combo was inevitable. Maybe we can get Greedy Pull back, for even more nostalgia.

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instead of wasting all their time to 'fix' some of the ways people found out to make the event mission too easy, they should use it to improve it's design and ofc, to fix what really needs fixing... and that still is a whole lot of things in there.

by now i have seen so many ways of making the missions (ground and space) trival even upto the end - and limbo was only one of them. varazin is only such under certain cirumstances... stop wasting your time, DE and focus on things that matters! also, think beforehand of what player will do to make your contend too easy... maybe by playing your own game a bit more you could figure such things out before being shown by the users?

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

Why shouldn't there be things to make certain missions trivial? Especially if you have those things in different loadout slots. Hitting Vazarin this hard not only promotes the Zenurik hyper-meta, but enforces certain frame choices on any defensive mission type.

There isn't a non-Zenurik meta though. Like, Zenurik has the obligatory Energizing Dash, the immensely useful Temporal Blast, and the useful Inner Might. There are two or three other schools that can claim one "immensely useful" or "useful" ability. Just giving Vazarin an exclusive perk that applies in one or two mission types is not enough. If you want Vazarin to compete with Zenurik, you have to change Vazarin. (Or nerf Zenurik into utter oblivion.)

So, no, this just means that a few more frames will become viable options in those mission types, which is an obviously good thing for variety, and everyone will continue to use Zenurik to exactly the degree that they already are. Which is to say, with some holdouts who prefer not to even though anything else is obviously suboptimal.

Edited by CopperBezel
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5 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

There isn't a non-Zenurik meta though. Like, Zenurik has the obligatory Energizing Dash, the immensely useful Temporal Blast, and the useful Inner Might. There are two or three other schools that can claim one "immensely useful" or "useful" ability. Just giving Vazarin an exclusive perk that applies in one or two mission types is not enough. If you want Vazarin to compete with Zenurik, you have to change Vazarin. (Or nerf Zenurik into utter oblivion.)

So, no, this just means that a few more frames will become viable options in those mission types, which is an obviously good thing for variety, and everyone will continue to use Zenurik to exactly the degree that they already are. Which is to say, with some holdouts who prefer not to even though anything else is obviously suboptimal.

Shh, don't give them ideas.

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to the [DE] developers. what really interests me would like an answer. (I know I don't get one) why ruin a good game with NERF. Yes, according to the annual report, sales have fallen.
1. Why these changes in healing skills?
Is there a big plan behind it?
2. Do you want Nerf to increase sales and the joy of playing to attract new players?
3. Why change popular skills?
That would be the way Apple doesn't sell Iphone and Samsung doesn't sell smartphones. Simply sets popular products. Certainly helpful for sales and customer satisfaction.
4 Nerf, working things should bring us joy in playing and customer satisfaction?
5. Away from the mighty Warframe, Powercreep fantasy, to ..... an ordinary looser game (Hey the Bug Community Warframe fits this)
Advertising slogan:
Warframe the game in which you are the loser.
Could remind some of their real life

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As someone who uses vazarin a lot, my main reason for using it is rad procs and dumb people. I can see these people coming from a mile away, and generally vazarin myself to protect myself. Would be nice if there were some arcane I could equip to just have the damage reflected on the person who is rad procced, because then I wouldn't need vazarin at all, but as it stands this is MOSTLY why I use vazarin. Also, it protects/protected (once live) the defense target for the whole squad because of those few dumb people - without their knowledge, I've saved many missions from being a wash.

With this change, all that will differ likely is that where I would use vazarin, I'll be using Oberon. You'd think there would be better options, and there are.. but then you'd underestimate the stupidity of people who want AoE but don't prepare themselves for rad procs. When I can, I already do ALL missions solo when there are any chance of rad procs, aside from low level lich missions, where I protect myself immensely, and pray that a wukong clone/mesa doesn't get a rad proc.

I have a small rant about Garuda and Vazarin also, I took a lot of time to write it so I'm expecting someone to read it @[DE]Rebecca

Spoiler

I was going to say this nerfs a Garuda build I had going, but likely it will just mean that Garuda is ultimately worse than she already is. I will explain... my build for Garuda was a support build, because after testing her in multiple setups (aside from a triple umbral build which I wont commit to until we can actually gain more umbra forma), her survivability was SO TERRIBLE (vs 170 Grineer + Eximus), the only way to have her survive was with clever vazarin'ing (and even then, you need time to output her skills, which leaves a window open to be two-shotted by bombards on a very rare occasion). This could be easily fixed by just giving Garuda +200% hp from what she already starts with. Why? Why not... if she's not a total DPS, she should at least have survivability, which I was achieving with Vazarin instead of her skills. Granted, this is even not that pressing because the level I was testing at would never be ultimately reached (maybe in arbitration), but this change makes the build I had from comfortable and fun to not worth playing. The only other possible change would be to make Dread Ward last longer... as it is, if you are dread warded you have to have a blood spire down which slows the entire pace of combat, in order to generate energy (or team up with a heal frame which feels really backwards). By the time the spire is up, at low levels things are already dead and you have to unspire the enemy, who is already likely dead (if un-spiring manually gave Garuda Dread Ward a refresh if the target is dead, it would go a long way) so what you're left with is often no Dread Ward because there are no enemies to use her 1 on. THERE ARE NO ENEMIES. TO USE HER 1 ON. So, you lose invincibility, have to cast her 3 which costs HP, so now you are half HP and not invincible, and you have to immediately spire another enemy whereupon you usually die before you can get her Dread Ward back. Meanwhile, you've done nothing useful. Thus, it was actually more effective for me to drop Dread Ward, go full vazarin, which allows me to ignore her 2 most of the time and actually cast her 4 with not even great strength, just barely enough to get the 100% bonus I might add. This build was also never able to cast her held 1 because it would drop the shield and survivability goes to absolutely 0, so the entire build was Vazarin -> 3 -> 1/4 depending on buff needed and occasionally 2 just to not spam vazarin as much. Her 1 and 2 are also awful for another reason... her 1's knockdown is just the worst possible thing that could exist.. while you run up to enemies to use your claws, if you decide to roll to get there faster, her shield knocks the enemy away. Do you see why that is awful? Then her 2 sometimes knocks down enemies that are WAY MORE VALUABLE TO BE LEFT STANDING, especially, oh I dunno... the only units that can actually kill her? So if you are trying to hold them with your 2, release the 2 and can't get a headshot as they're standing up... you die usually (and I'm even using PSF, I couldn't imagine people using non PSF builds) unless using vazarin + lockdown, which my build planned for. Am I mad that this build will likely not be worth using? - Not at all, but it's just sad. I wasn't expecting vazarin to be touched otherwise I would've never used Garuda at all. Ever. She's trash without it... so many frames require so much less effort.

So I propose a challenge to DE, to fight the following enemies using Garuda, and see how easily you are able to clear the whole map - because I have builds that clear it in less than 30s, and Garuda using only her 1 and vazarin (without Dread Ward!) clears it faster than touching any of her other skills except maybe her 4 - also relies a bit on lockdown. That's a problem!!!!!!!!!!!!
CqA37ge.jpg
The build I personally settled on: Steel Charge (Though honestly at this point auras are a joke), Primed Sure Footed (Exilus), Vitality, Hunter Adrenaline, Streamline, Transient Fortitude (r6), Health Conversion, Primed Continuity, Quick Thinking (mine was r2, but ultimately you want this r5), Flow. Arcanes: Guardian, Acceleration (for Bramma). Likely you might be able to clear the map, but if it's taking you 2 minutes with all her clunky skills.. try to just shoot things 1 by 1 then and you'll see, it takes only 1m. This is a problem. If the 'survivable' frame needs a tank, I think that's a problem.. and she can't even do useful things afaik like cast her 4 against a lich or other bosses (similar to banshee, who I also use vazarin on - but at least she has a full radial CC when worse comes to worse).

Yes this rant is long, I'm passionate about seeing justice given to these frames that are gimped and being gimped even further. Why are there limitations on certain abilities against bosses while others have the ability to completely shut them down? This is what's going to happen: Say there are 6 really great frames to kill a boss. Now there are only 2, well.. almost everyone is going to show up with those frames. Then when that is nerfed, people will always move to the next best thing. It will always become some way to trivialise the content for people, and if it ever gets to the point where it cannot be - those people will simply just seek a carry from those that understand the mechanics enough, thus not actually playing. If the nerfs keep continuing like this, this is all that it will become - people that don't care to put the effort in because their efforts are awarded with abilities that don't decrease that skill gap by a significant enough factor.


Not to mention, one of the biggest factors of using vazarin was HELPING players that needed that extra hand from being downed from trying to learn all the mechanics (e.g. I completely saved a clanmate's game doing fractures because they weren't properly prepared and I also don't know how I could've helped more - one person brought a mesa who would just mow me down every time he got a rad proc - and while I'm not sure mesa can still attack the canister, if I wasn't there with vazarin they would've had to entirely re-gear if so. And what do you even bring to a fight like that that's rigged so heavily against us other than vazarin? Unless it was patched, any AoE had a chance to destroy the stupid canister, and enemies would swarm the canister while we were preventing from using abilities to shoo the enemies away first lest... potentially destroy the canister. Nerfing vazarin nerfs this tactic unless EVERYONE brings vazarin I guess (+2000 HP unless they don't stack from other squadmates as well, which would just be annoying - it SHOULD be that each player can have their own vazarin effect affect a target - this is a lot fairer at least and people might finally actually use vazarin as a squad instead of just 1 person needing it for the entire squad - though I don't know why that has to be changed to be honest, it could just be left to those of us that have a brain). /rant

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Focus schools need a rework/rebalance anyways. I was using vazarin, i am back to zenurik now. Vazarin was handy for soloing excavations, mobile defenses, defenses,etc. Especially the kuva lich ones that are level 110 and you are by yourself.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think a rebalance would be enough. Each school represents a massive investment on the player's part and becomes a fallback set of abilties that they have no matter what frame they're using. The school you're using can define what is and isn't useful about a given frame relative to another and so on. Either all the schools need to ultimately have the ability to accomplish similar tasks with different abilities, or they need to have the ability to choose to some extent among the same ones, like having one ability from each school, like Energizing Dash, be unbindable like operator passives. 

And then there's, like, Magus Repair, which would be one of the better focus abilities if it was in fact a focus ability, but everyone can use it....

Edited by CopperBezel

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On 2020-04-04 at 6:08 PM, (XB1)A Sad Valkyr said:

I agree Vaz could use a nerf,

How does a Focus school that is already crap need a nerf? Protective Dash is the sole good skill in Vazarin.

They introduced Magus Repair with Fortuna that heals all warframes within 30m of the operator for 25% Max Health per second wile the player is in Void mode. It heals through walls, doesnt need you dashing from side to side trying to hit your teammates which are bouncing the whole time and it can be used by any Focus school.

Void Regen from the Vazarin School should have been what Magus Repair does.

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Magus Repair also just really behaves like a focus node, too. Meanwhile Zenurik gets both Energizing Dash and Temporal Blast for some reason, either of which is as useful as Vazarin's one deal. 

I'm starting to think that all the really useful nodes really should just be arcanes instead, but then it's going to be Magus Repair / Vazarin-in-an-arcane and whatever stands in for Energizing Dash.

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10 hours ago, (PS4)Qjing said:

to the [DE] developers. what really interests me would like an answer. (I know I don't get one) why ruin a good game with NERF. Yes, according to the annual report, sales have fallen.
1. Why these changes in healing skills?
Is there a big plan behind it?
2. Do you want Nerf to increase sales and the joy of playing to attract new players?
3. Why change popular skills?
That would be the way Apple doesn't sell Iphone and Samsung doesn't sell smartphones. Simply sets popular products. Certainly helpful for sales and customer satisfaction.
4 Nerf, working things should bring us joy in playing and customer satisfaction?
5. Away from the mighty Warframe, Powercreep fantasy, to ..... an ordinary looser game (Hey the Bug Community Warframe fits this)
Advertising slogan:
Warframe the game in which you are the loser.
Could remind some of their real life

Players requested it. By the way, there's a player just like you who went on the same rant but listed the opposite of you. 

- Warframes are too strong.

- Warframes need rework.

- Mods are too op.

- "DE, do you think players enjoy overpowering enemies? No difficulty? This is why sales have fallen"

Seriously, this forum is all over the place and has no idea what it wants. Lol!!

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On 2020-04-07 at 10:44 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

How does a Focus school that is already crap need a nerf?

Because its sole useful ability is too good. Vazarin puts every defence frame out of a job, and laughs at the school actually meant to be the defensive one. I'm not asking for it to be killed off, I'm asking for it to be tuned so I actually consider the idea of bringing a defence frame in. What DE wants with that nerf, however, is for defence frames to become required, which is okay, but you shouldn't need to off an entire school to do it.

 

On 2020-04-08 at 12:37 AM, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Players requested it. By the way, there's a player just like you who went on the same rant but listed the opposite of you. 

There was also a guy who managed to get DE to prevent universal medallions from being used with Teshin, and literally nobody liked that. There'll always be people screaming for nerfs, but a lot of the time it's because they don't use the thing they're screaming about and said thing is doing something their favourite thing does, but better. 

 

I agree with everyone here who has said the Focus schools could use a rework. They most certainly could. Unairu should be a defensive school but it's god awful at doing that. Ironically, it's actually only ever used for DPS. Madurai should have more abilities that focus on amping up your Warframe. It has its passives, but we all know it's not used for the 30% damage increase, it's used to one-shot eidolons. 

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7 hours ago, (XB1)A Sad Valkyr said:

Because its sole useful ability is too good. Vazarin puts every defence frame out of a job, and laughs at the school actually meant to be the defensive one. I'm not asking for it to be killed off, I'm asking for it to be tuned so I actually consider the idea of bringing a defence frame in. What DE wants with that nerf, however, is for defence frames to become required, which is okay, but you shouldn't need to off an entire school to do it.

School versus school is a different matter. I myself got hoodwinked by the original '<verb> the enemy' descriptions back at launch and the one I first picked still isn't much of anything to do with its claims.

But you cannot say that Protective Dash puts every defensive frame out of a job, when it's more fallible and requires constant attention to do it, while also locking you out of any other abilities and your weaponry completely if remaining in Operator, or for still a large portion of that time due to the several steps required if returning to frame between Dashes.

You'd have to be fortunate enough to keep enough enemies grouped close by to Dash through and restore more energy than you're losing, if you want to keep up the protection indefinitely without exposing your precious little potato in order for their energy to come back naturally. Prot Dash doesn't help soft lads itself, and Void Mode means more cost, no regen.
The alternative is to jump back into Frame, but that still leaves you potentially open to displacements and mistiming with the additional state transitions. Client Transference lag, anyone?

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-04-05 at 9:30 AM, Redfeather75 said:

It's for static defense objects. Says in the workshop topic that it is for static defense objects. The things that can have 45,000 hp.

Vazarin can heal 60% of that 45,000 hp in 5 seconds.

Since healing will be allowed by a lot of people after the change what is the point of making one method do 20,000+hp heals over everything else. I saw someone on youtube complaining about the change and it made them look so selfish and spoiled.

I'll end my post by saying I use vazarin. I used protective dash to solo a lich defense mission where the lich even appeared. It was trivial.

It's -possible- to heal 60% in 5 seconds. There's already a built in timer after the last moment of taking damage before natural health regen begins, and Protective Dash has to wait out that timer before it can heal, so taking a couple of seconds to do it in the heat of battle will not restore 60%. I don't know the timer, but I would estimate it at more like 40% health regen. It could use some tuning, but not a slaughtering.

Edited by (NSW)WesFX
Clarifying 40% meaning

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-04-16 at 12:06 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

School versus school is a different matter. I myself got hoodwinked by the original '<verb> the enemy' descriptions back at launch and the one I first picked still isn't much of anything to do with its claims.

But you cannot say that Protective Dash puts every defensive frame out of a job, when it's more fallible and requires constant attention to do it, while also locking you out of any other abilities and your weaponry completely if remaining in Operator, or for still a large portion of that time due to the several steps required if returning to frame between Dashes.

You'd have to be fortunate enough to keep enough enemies grouped close by to Dash through and restore more energy than you're losing, if you want to keep up the protection indefinitely without exposing your precious little potato in order for their energy to come back naturally. Prot Dash doesn't help soft lads itself, and Void Mode means more cost, no regen.
The alternative is to jump back into Frame, but that still leaves you potentially open to displacements and mistiming with the additional state transitions. Client Transference lag, anyone?

Apologies for the long delay in response, I rarely check the forums.

Protective Dash doesn't require constant attention unless you're in a lv150+ mission. In the long period of time I've used Vaz, it's never taken more than two dashes to start the healing. Once to give the target immunity, then again to begin the healing as there is a delay between when the target takes damage and when it can be healed for balancing. If you're spending more than two dashes to heal a target, you're doing it wrong, or your operator isn't kitted. 

Switching to operator once a wave to restore target health isn't something I would consider all that troublesome. It's a free ability ('free' being that op energy is quick to recharge and requires no outside support to do so) that can be cast instantly. Even when casting twice to heal, it takes around 5 seconds to do it, depending on the healing delay. I'm more than happy to spend 5 seconds a wave and run an offense frame than use a defensive one and bring the risks involved with it (Energy costs, defensive ability health, incorrect build, energy drain enemies, nullies). That's not to say that only runing Vaz has no risk, but the risks are far less that the problems Warframes bring in my eyes. (Risks being nullies, badly timed dashes, having to heal too many times and thereby running out of energy, op being popped and not having energy to cast)

Protective Dash isn't designed for complete protection, and using it as such isn't exactly a well thought out practice. It's designed to be a buffer, then a heal that can't be cancelled. Some heals in the game, like Oberon's Renewal, can be cancelled by incoming damage that outpaces the healing. Vaz prevents that. If you're running a defense mission and find yourself needing the target healed, you won't be spending more than a few seconds out of Warframe, as stated previously.

I've no idea how other players use Vaz, but my playstyle involves frequent switching between my Frame and op. I dash through my Frame or the target, start the healing, then switch to my Frame to allow my op time to regen energy. If she takes damage, I just make use of Magus Replenish, something any Vaz main should be running as it complements the School well (upon dashing, heal operator by 30% max health at rank 5). I will completely agree that operators are squishy, but I'm happy to accept that risk as a part of me choosing to not use a defense frame for the reasons stated prior.

Sorry for the wall, just wanted to go over everything there

Edited by (XB1)A Sad Valkyr
I'm dumb and don't know arcane names

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