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If warframe had difficulty

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Posted (edited)

Define “difficulty.” Be explicit and detailed.

Is difficulty complex mechanics requiring a coordinated team?

Is it tactically challenging opponents?

Is it bullet-sponges, or bullet-hell?

Is it weak heroes trying to devise clever ways to defeat powerful enemies?

Details!

And once done, try to figure out how the identity of Warframe Is preserved once implemented. 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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1 hour ago, JackHargreav said:

An optional content is whatever.

But you can't just add difficulty to warframe. We would need a S#&$ ton amonut of changes to make difficulty an option.

Yeah 

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19 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

Define “difficulty.” Be explicit and detailed.

Is difficulty complex mechanics requiring a coordinated team?

Is it tactically challenging opponents?

Is it bullet-sponges, or bullet-hell?

Is it weak heroes trying to devise clever ways to defeat powerful enemies?

Details!

And once done, try to figure out how the identity of Warframe Is preserved once implemented. 

I don't know mate, people ITT openly admitted that they got filtered by Dark Souls, which is objectively an easy game

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1 hour ago, akrid45 said:

Nobody wants warframe to be dark souls, just because a game has difficultly doesn't mean it's dark souls level difficult 

Also what's the problem of adding optional difficultly? so people like u can just avoid those modes

And how do you add difficulty without feeling cheap with our power when even your braton can deal great damage with proper modding?

We did have some before, Terra Corpus on Orb Vallis were able to down an inaros without much problem and people cried

Manic was able to knock you down and claw you to critical health, people cried

Even melee nullifier that is able to run a bit faster than other Vapos Corpus is broken and unfair to this community so tell me, what kind of difficulty you can think without this community throwing a fit and call it broken, unfair or annoying?

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Posted (edited)

If I wanted Dark Souls I'd play Dark Souls..or I'd play GTFO or Doom Internal...

 

Listen what De should do is right in front of them with Earth and Lua when it comes to difficulty...They need new players to catch up so dumbing down the normal star map is in order for them to get to the second dream and up to the initial content wave release schedule so DE doesn't have to make it so weak all the time.

After you clear specific hurdles that say yes you're a vet or competent in knowledge, gear, and movement then you should be playing on a separated map like Lua that has all the same resources as Earth but the enemy is not here to cuddle you..

Ram Sleds hunt you down, Bursa and Nox are not nerfed..You actually fear the scream of the Juggernaut and have to make a choice to slow down or risk it...The Maniac makes you seek out teammates...The whole difficulty gambit of what made warframe hardcore in year 1 is in place on those maps to challenge your builds and push teamwork with rewards worth the effort to do so.

Edited by (PS4)FriendSharkey

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7 minutes ago, Sovyul said:

I don't know mate, people ITT openly admitted that they got filtered by Dark Souls, which is objectively an easy game

Never played it, so I can’t comment on that. The point is: Warframe is a particular game, and  will need its own definition of difficulty — or It will become a different game.

Like, what the OP posted? Killing monsters in different “shells?” That isn’t Warframe. We do that in every class-based game.

So the challenge remains (not addressing you in particular)—everyone who wants “difficulty” needs to outline a) exactly what that comprises, and b) how much of Warframe’s identity they’re willing to sacrifice to get it.

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8 hours ago, Galuf said:

It is not really the true story. It was perceived like that in occident because the good stuff was on arcade and we had less access to it.

Japanese were heavily into VS anyway. Savior franchise and Garou: mark of the wolves bring definitely more than ssf2 to modern vs games. The former is the most #*!%ed up vs game I ever played as it has complex features(first game with ex bars), is extremly fast paced(crossups everywhere) and mechanics intensive. The second is very colorfull, a bit less wtf but still has 0 frame supers and ultras lol. Both games have better art direction, more depth and skill ceiling, and better realisation than street fighter 2. There was also KoF, guilty gears, etc... Street was not at all the top dog, it was the non sweaty vs game actually :D.

I don't know what you are talking about. My story is about 1990s arcades when I was a teen. You seem to be talking about later in home consoles?

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Posted (edited)

I have my difficult Warframe, thanks 😋 If DE buffs things, I’ll be challenged. If DE nerfs things I’ll be challenged. I’m pretty flexible and look forward to what comes next 👍.

The only time I’ll probably be sad-yet-understanding is if I couldn’t challenge myself 😕 

edit: The video looked pretty neat

Edited by (NSW)Greybones

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11 hours ago, Aldain said:

I really don't like how everything that wants to make itself seem "hardcore" just keeps emulating Dark Souls in some way shape or form.

Dark Souls ran a brilliant advertising campaign that pretty much sold itself on difficulty. Whilst this was a legitimately great move on their half - conflating the two terms in the public conscious is great PR - it caused the collective consciousness to forget all the other really hard games out there.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

Never played it, so I can’t comment on that. The point is: Warframe is a particular game, and  will need its own definition of difficulty — or It will become a different game.

Like, what the OP posted? Killing monsters in different “shells?” That isn’t Warframe. We do that in every class-based game.

So the challenge remains (not addressing you in particular)—everyone who wants “difficulty” needs to outline a) exactly what that comprises, and b) how much of Warframe’s identity they’re willing to sacrifice to get it.

The problem with difficulty is that it slows down rewards, something that I rarely saw anyone taking into consideration, even now only JohnKane mentioned it and it went under the rug, ignored, despite the rewards being the core of the problem. Why would any sane player opt for denying rewards from himself, when said rewards are little and extremely time gated as they are already?

Implementing difficulty into WF at this point while also increasing the rewards to compensate for the time that would be lost otherwise, would require a complete remake.

First thing that comes to my mind is player stats scaling with enemy levels (that reaches into the 100k's S/HP) and drastically nerfing all damage reduction buffs and redesigning armor as a completely new mechanic.

Fixing enemy spawn locations so they don't spawn from "secured" rooms, so the player won't find 3 infested chargers in his backside that came out from the room he was inside in 5 seconds ago.

Drastically nerfing player nukes and speed clear.

And most importantly the AI's behavior, enemy variety and mission events.

Increasing the drop rate and quantity of everything.

+many many more

There's also the problem of repetitiveness, at the moment people lean towards nuking and cheesing because doing the same sh*t over and over again hundreds of times, that's why you see AFK builds, they only want the rewards because they already exhausted nearly all gameplay styles and the remaining are locked behind grind. Once they get those items, they will enjoy it for a few missions, playing normally, they're back to cheesing and nuking for the next build. There's a severe fun drought in WF. People grind for their next rush of dopamine only.

By the end it would be a completely different game, but this is just one post, some ideas generated on a whim. Game design requires a great deal of planning, and looking at the changes in the recent years, it doesn't seem that there's much of it. But honestly this goes for the majority of other games released in the past decade as well. Either the people in charge of the projects are at fault, or the greedy little shareholders have them by their balls, but honestly I'm guessing it's the latter case.

In June 2016, Leyou purchased the remaining shares of Digital Extremes

What a coincidence that things have begun changing drastically after that. What a coincidence that Blizzard went down the S#&$ter after they got purchased as well.

It's the shareholders, it's always them.

Edit: according to others things began to go awry even before that, so there's that too. It's always around the times when a chinese company acquires stakes 

Edited by Sovyul
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Anytime there is any sort of difficulty in Warframe a good chunk of the players cry about it and DE makes it easier for them. Nobody wants Warframe to dial up the difficulty to 10, but it would be nice if they could bump it up a couple notches to make the game more enjoyable.

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12 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Considering people are complaining DE made it harder to afk Murex missions with Limbo, I imagine that actual difficulty, even if optional, won't ever be a thing on Warframe.

Well it isn't a hard look to see why. It's a boring event that we've done before (mobile defense/defense) which few people like to do. Similar to Dog Days, why would someone want to play it if it isn't fun?

DE needs to look at the core mechanics of Warframe and polish them, make them better diversify them, rather than making them 'more of the same with ONE OR TWO changed things to do" and calling it a day. Even though I like Disruption (scaling rewards are super nice and never hurt anyone) it's just defense with mini-bosses. 

So, in summary: players are complaining about it being harder to afk Murex, or do it easier, because it's boring. 

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3 hours ago, 844448 said:

And how do you add difficulty without feeling cheap with our power when even your braton can deal great damage with proper modding?

We did have some before, Terra Corpus on Orb Vallis were able to down an inaros without much problem and people cried

Manic was able to knock you down and claw you to critical health, people cried

Even melee nullifier that is able to run a bit faster than other Vapos Corpus is broken and unfair to this community so tell me, what kind of difficulty you can think without this community throwing a fit and call it broken, unfair or annoying?

Nahhh You're right, the biggest thing holding difficultly back from being added is this community 

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Early Warframe is difficult. It only becomes easy after you've collected an arsenal of mods and weapons grossly overpowered for the content that's available. 

Once you get on demand energy, health and the right frame for every possible mission type, then Warframe devolves into a game of gear checking.

Early on, you just have your starter and you scrounge around enemy lockers for health and energy orbs. You can't afford to get hit. 

Later on, you can just  nuke and face tank everything.

 

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3 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

Well it isn't a hard look to see why. It's a boring event that we've done before (mobile defense/defense) which few people like to do. Similar to Dog Days, why would someone want to play it if it isn't fun?

DE needs to look at the core mechanics of Warframe and polish them, make them better diversify them, rather than making them 'more of the same with ONE OR TWO changed things to do" and calling it a day. Even though I like Disruption (scaling rewards are super nice and never hurt anyone) it's just defense with mini-bosses. 

So, in summary: players are complaining about it being harder to afk Murex, or do it easier, because it's boring. 

Because this community has a "you need to be able to solo it mentality" so it's severly limits what type of modes DE can add

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Got a boner from watching this.

Looks more of a "soulslike" than looter shooter tho.

 

On topic, WF def needs difficulty settings.

Higher the difficulty, stronger the enemy better the loot, etc.

 

 

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8 hours ago, George_PPS said:

If you want more difficult, you can always under-equip gears or use fewer mods in everything. Or, start a new thread to suggest DE to design new Mods that have all negative stats. 

holy 💩 that's a fantastic idea. 

 

i love goofy mods like peculiar bloom and whatnot 

 

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35 minutes ago, akrid45 said:

Because this community has a "you need to be able to solo it mentality" so it's severly limits what type of modes DE can add

Honestly even if it has a 'you need to be able to solo it', there's some basic stuff in Warframe that's overpowered, due in part to being both extremely game-breaking and having no stopgap.

AoE nuke? AoE CC? InvinciInvisibility? These things are, if used in games, always given severe downsides or use limits because they close design space. Consider if you will, DE designing a new enemy. What goes into designing a new enemy? Well, their role in the combat sandbox and gameplay loop, and subsequently the amount of damage they deal, how easy it is to evade that damage and how easily they can evade the player's damage; how much damage they take, how aggressive or defensive they are, if they protect other enemies, if they have any weak points and how critical it is that those weak points get hit.

All of these are rendered moot or massively reduced in importance by nukes, CC and invisibility. Their role in the sandbox or loop doesn't matter because these abilities pretty much ignore it. How much damage they deal? Doesn't matter, they're either dead or CC'd before they take a shot, or the player never draws aggro to begin with. This deletes how easy it is to evade damage as well. You can't dodge an AoE death field that simply checks for line of sight - if that- and if they can't move or the evade AI never triggers they can't evade anyway, so the enemy doesn't get that either. How much damage they can take might matter, but at the end of the day they're still going to be taking extremely high damage with minimal input from the player so it doesn't matter too much. CC and Invisibility sidestep that entirely, because that just alters how much time they have to spend shooting at the mannequin. Aggressive or defensive is meaningless because they don't get a chance to use that AI, protecting other enemies is useless because at most they'll die first followed by everything they were protecting, or if it's something like a shield, then these abilities usually circumnavigate that anyway. Weak points are irrelevant when the damage dealt is so extreme that it'll plow through - CC and invisibility make hitting weak points trivial anyway.

 

Objective are only as good as the obstacles in your way of achieving that objective - in an action game like Warframe, those obstacles are enemies. The game is only as good as the enemies we are presented with. And the enemies can only be good if we engage with them. That's not to say Warframe's always are, but that's another kettle of fish.

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Posted (edited)

Warframe had that "you can break the game" mentality since it release. However the game has always been about speed and nowadays the endless mods, for the most part, greatly befinit from that speed too.

However some pieces of content are big revelators of the playerbase :D. For instance in RJ, wich is imho the game mode where cooperation, sense of priorities and autonomy are extremly rewarding, most of us suck copiously, often not having a clue about the "meta" after maxing their intrinsics 😄. I hope for DE to keep releasing content that is a bit more intricate gameplay wise(less obvious and sometimes missleading) as I get my fun in those, learning what's best.

Edited by Galuf

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2 hours ago, uAir said:

 

god i loved this game

shield bashing 3x then a big f-ing amaranth kick in the enemy's face with Fiona felt good

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3 hours ago, akrid45 said:

Because this community has a "you need to be able to solo it mentality" so it's severly limits what type of modes DE can add

If you make everything one dimensional without scaling difficulty, which they have something kind of similar here.

You don't design difficulty to be the same for solo as for squads, just like raids in WoW aren't soloable (current expansion) and are built around 10m/25m raids. Meaning if you're good you can get away with fewer or if you're geared.

That's all DE needs to do, sure it's going to be work, since they don't really have a sense of balance right now; but they can do it. 

I'm one of those 'you should be able to solo' players, by the way. But if they do it smartly, they can still make it challenging without it needing to be a gear check, mobility is one of those equalizing factors. Then you have things scale based on how many players are in the mission and what frames they're using (so enemy types change around abit depending on what 'class' of frame you bring, but without being cheap like nullifiers on fortuna.

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2 hours ago, Galuf said:

Warframe had that "you can break the game" mentality since it release. However the game has always been about speed and nowadays the endless mods, for the most part, greatly befinit from that speed too.

However some pieces of content are big revelators of the playerbase :D. For instance in RJ, wich is imho the game mode where cooperation, sense of priorities and autonomy are extremly rewarding, most of us suck copiously, often not having a clue about the "meta" after maxing their intrinsics 😄. I hope for DE to keep releasing content that is a bit more intricate gameplay wise(less obvious and sometimes missleading) as I get my fun in those, learning what's best.

There is a difference between feeling like you break the game and actually breaking it.

Metroid games, I'm told, heavily lean into this (haven't had the chance to try myself - Metroid for switch when Nintendo?). Designing encounters which are brutally difficult and then letting the player gain powers that allow them to overcome those encounters with ease, letting them have their fun for a bit, then throwing a new encounter at them to repeat the process all over again, either in a linear sequence or by strategically letting players break that sequence. By the end of the game, you have the solution to any problem the game can throw at you, so you feel so powerful as to be game-breaking. But that's as much from your own ability to problem-solve and apply your vast arsenal to a situation from the arsenal itself.

As opposed to Warframe which, once you get access to the likes of Saryn, Limbo or Loki and the mods to let them unlock their abilities, just let you circumnavigate any encounter with minimal input.

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7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

it caused the collective consciousness to forget all the other really hard games out there.

And also forget that difficulty can be more than just two extremes.

 

3 hours ago, Galuf said:

Warframe had that "you can break the game" mentality since it release.

No it didn't. Back in 2013 it was actually quite a tough game.

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Ofc, the "power fantasy" whiners show up to trash anything that is challenging. This game looks RAD. The first "souls"game besides godfall. I want to play. I'm so happy other game studios are looking at everything warframe is doing wrong.

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