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Roble_Viejo

Discussion on recent direction of DE, updates and tennocon

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Posted (edited)

DE is the most transparent developer I have seen. 

In fact, at Tennocon 19, DE very clearly said that Railjack was at a very early stage, before they started that demo gameplay.

Tennocon 19 never promised Kiva liches, they dropped that one out of nowhere, most of the community was very surprised. 

We all knew that Railjack would be a Christmas thing and New Year would be a Tennocon 20 thing. Obviously the Railjack is far from what we expected, wanted. DE, not being able to deliver complete functioning polished package is the real issue, not their transparency. They never lied, they never overhyped anything, they missed a lot of deadlines and failed many times specially in the last year, to give us something complete, and they apologized for it many times. 

Its a free game, and lets admit it, DE, with all their flaws and issues, is still an amazing developer. I am not on of those DEfenders, I have my own share of frustration over the current state of the game. But I DEfinitely appreciate the work DE has done and the communication they maintain with the community.

Edited by --Aegis--MR9
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

We were told it was a demo. 

In normal circumstances, I'd say that the community has no one to blame but themselves for OVERHYPING the content shown, knowing that DE would probably ship it buggy and barren and then fix it six months later as per usual.

But in this circumstances, I'd say both parties are to blame. Digital Extremes for blantantly lying to their fanbase at this point, and the fanbase for not knowing what the **** it wants out of this game!

my problem was the way the pretend to play the demo, like it was that far in development  

Edited by (PS4)SolarPhantom82
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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Redfeather75 said:

It is about coptering specifically. When players learned to do something unintended and overpowered, Scott talked about how it was game breaking but it was turned into a new mechanic that could be made more controllable so that it wasn't overpowered.

And I think that is what the healing static object thing happening now is doing.

EVE Online founder/CEO had an example of how the players developed a way of doing things the game developers never envisioned. Instead of nerfing it into the ground (healing objects/Limbo nerf DE?) the developers let it work and adjusted to what the players did. The specific item in the video from EVE Online was about mining and dropping your payload into space and letting someone in your fleet pick it up and take it back to the station so you didn't have to stop mining.

In Warframe, Limbo stasis makes the event 'trivial' so instead of adapting to the players DE nerfed Limbo. How about instead of nerfing the frame DE creates a new mob that is indeed immune to Limbo stasis...and add that new mob to the inventory. The healing nerf to the oplink is another one...and DE has (after a lot of community push back) decided to come up with a different "fix"...

This mindset by DE of releasing an event with so many bugs (flotilla counts resetting is the big one IMO right now) and instead focuses on nerfing things that players do just seems the wrong focus.

Edited by GreyDeath789
typo
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1 hour ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

OK   but what were they playing..  and making it look like it was far in development, there is a diffence between a demo and a live demo....they faked a live demo..  

..... this is exactly my point.

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1 hour ago, --Aegis--MR9 said:

Its a free game, and lets admit it, DE, with all their flaws and issues, is still an amazing developer. I am not on of those DEfenders, I have my own share of frustration over the current state of the game. But I DEfinitely appreciate the work DE has done and the communication they maintain with the community.

then they should learn from their past mistakes and not try to do stuff beyond the so called vision like improving old content

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Its not hard at all. Self damage for example: Remove it? Excellent, it only took some years of complaining to DE to realize that the game is too fast paced to have self damage. Replace for stagger? Fair, if a weapon can delete enemies is fair to punish spamming it without thinking. Adding self stagger to ALL AOE WEAPONS? No, unnecessary, pointless, and was implemented quite literally as a "slap in the wrist" for the community to stop asking them for stuff. 

Same just happened with objective healing, instead of saying, "fine, you need ways to keep the objective alive, we get it" and keeping things as they were they enabled it across the board but nerfed it so its pretty much useless on objectives. Lvl 30 infested do like 150 - 200 dmg to hp per second to an unshielded objective, best heals now do 500hp per second. This is ridiculous. All heals to objectives should be %hp. 

Vacuum too, oh so you want vacuum on everything? There you go, but its nerfed, and it still takes up a mod slot, even if everybody and their mothers run vacuum. 

This is happening more and more often and it's becoming more aggressive, they are faster to nerf things than to do anything else. 

I'm gonna flip a 180 here and defend the devs choice on this for a second while pointing a finger at the players.  You can check my post history if you want to understand why that's such a hard 180.

If everyone on the squad was doing their damn job, then at most you would need to heal chip damage on defense objectives.  Minor damage that would matter over time if you couldn't heal it.  Instead of PTFO though, and instead of understanding the game mechanics and doing their part to help the squad succeed as easily as possible through the use of those game mechanics (like not spreading out during a goddamn survival fissure), the vast majority of the people I encounter in pubs and even some people from my clan/alliance/recruit like to just be brain dead and wander off to go do their own thing.  Nearly any damn mission except exterminate you can count of players not focusing on the objective or getting side tracked because there's red triangles on their minimap just a little further that way, and oh look another penny.  A squad full of competent people in any of the defensive modes this game has, will not have issues with anything other than minor chip damage.  Perfect example is Kuva survival.  Fairly low health on the towers for what can rapidly become a higher level mission.  Instead of staying in the general vicinity of the tower, everyone follows that trail of red triangles out of the objective area and at best you have one person defending the tower.  If the enemy spawn switches and all hits on the tower, one person can have a fair bit of trouble trying to prevent the constant influx of damage from enemies with their level over 100.  Even if that player can handle them, through skill or smart loadout choices, you can't prevent all damage, and the amount of heals we just gained from this buff to everything but Vazarin (which did go a little too far, imo.  It's the only reason to use that tree.) are perfectly fine for healing something like a tower back up to full.  We even have more options for it now.

For the people moaning "Oh but all the health on the Hydron defense target!  So much health!  Not enough heals!"  If your Hydron defense target is taking that much damage that you need a 60% per second heal to keep it alive, you either shouldn't be on Hydron yet, need to rethink your loadout, or learn to PTFO.

Other than Vazarin these changes were solid af.  This is the sort of thing we should be encouraging.  There's plenty of other things for us to pinpoint in this thread about the stupid things the devs are doing and them listening to the outcry and fixing this issue for the most part isn't one of them.

Here's a list of torches I think the players should still be carrying along with pitchforks, rather than moaning that we didn't get enough of a healing buff to be able to afk everything:

  1. Excessive grind and generally bad reward structures.
  2. Adding more bugs than they fix.
  3. Releasing content that isn't even halfway ready to be released.
  4. Shoddy balance attempts.  Like where you described them nerfing all AOE instead of just the top end.  I agree with you 100% on that.
  5. Egregious, excessive and constant player nerfs without any coinciding enemy balance other than a top end armor nerf.
  6. The sad fact that every piece of content released over the last 3 years has just been a re-release of the star chart with a different name and a half-finished new coat of paint.  Liches don't have their own content/missions.  It's literally the star chart with a new field boss and the parazon system.  Why did it take that long to produce?
     
Edited by (XB1)TehChubbyDugan
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2 hours ago, BDMblue said:

It’s one of those strange things. The developer does not have something done we all know it yet they want to show off their current idea. Most reasonable people know it’s not the final product but some like you don’t.

we have 2 choices 1 they don’t show any ideas just finished work and keep the rest under raps. Or 2 they make you complete a test about your knowledge of game development before you watch if you lack basic knowledge and are likely to be offended you can’t watch?

If it is the only working prototype shown (even if it's tagged as a WIP and promised to have more added at a subsequent date) it is not unreasonable for a consumer to hold that raised expectation as the litmus for the product... Because the developer set that expectation to begin with.

It's fine to under-promise and over-deliver as that tends to delight customers.

OTOH, Over-promising and under-delivering has always been, at best, a let-down. Even if the product eventually meets with success we tend to say, "It got off to a rocky start".

Saying potential customers should be savvy enough to see through a developer's BS speaks volumes about the state of games and game development today imo.

I'd rather they went to the lab and quietly made something awesome as opposed to repeatedly telling me they are heading to the lab to make something awesome and constantly showing snippets of the "awesome" product... Only to turn in a finished product that is, at best, mediocre.

Here's the thing though...Warframe is free and that is always a great equalizer for expectations.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

If it is the only working prototype shown (even if it's tagged as a WIP and promised to have more added at a subsequent date) it is not unreasonable for a consumer to hold that raised expectation as the litmus for the product... Because the developer set that expectation to begin with.

It's fine to under-promise and over-deliver as that tends to delight customers.

OTOH, Over-promising and under-delivering has always been, at best, a let-down. Even if the product eventually meets with success we tend to say, "It got off to a rocky start".

Saying potential customers should be savvy enough to see through a developer's BS speaks volumes about the state of games and game development today imo.

I'd rather they went to the lab and quietly made something awesome as opposed to repeatedly telling me they are heading to the lab to make something awesome and constantly showing snippets of the "awesome" product... Only to turn in a finished product that is, at best, mediocre.

Here's the thing though...Warframe is free and that is always a great equalizer for expectations.

 

 

I am confused on what they showed that is missing? Lich battles? Power transfer? What? Taking off from fortuna? (Why would that be more then just a stage demo? Want a quest?)

its not that they don’t need more, but I mean community is voting on dev time all the time and I’m tied to this community’s votes. Looks like we won’t get much more to it. Same with lich. I’m guessing we might get 1 lich space battle then they won’t put more time into it. It’s basically going to become archwing 2.0. Thanks for the votes community :(.

I think I’m right about the test now was kinda a joke, but now it’s not. Maybe in twitch you can take the test pass and it unblocks events for viewing.

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20 hours ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Its not hard at all. Self damage for example: Remove it? Excellent, it only took some years of complaining to DE to realize that the game is too fast paced to have self damage. Replace for stagger? Fair, if a weapon can delete enemies is fair to punish spamming it without thinking. Adding self stagger to ALL AOE WEAPONS? No, unnecessary, pointless, and was implemented quite literally as a "slap in the wrist" for the community to stop asking them for stuff. 

Same just happened with objective healing, instead of saying, "fine, you need ways to keep the objective alive, we get it" and keeping things as they were they enabled it across the board but nerfed it so its pretty much useless on objectives. Lvl 30 infested do like 150 - 200 dmg to hp per second to an unshielded objective, best heals now do 500hp per second. This is ridiculous. All heals to objectives should be %hp. 

Vacuum too, oh so you want vacuum on everything? There you go, but its nerfed, and it still takes up a mod slot, even if everybody and their mothers run vacuum. 

This is happening more and more often and it's becoming more aggressive, they are faster to nerf things than to do anything else. 

Well, the point is you kill the Infested, not just stay there healing the objective.
And there's something called balance, and man, this game is already over the edge with how overpowered the players are compared to the AI that they're struggling to make things challenging and interesting. So no, man, you can't go ask for "difficult content" and then cry about "being slapped on the wrist" when they actually try to make a compromise.

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Thank you all for your answers, some of you are bringing up very good points. 

And I want to add that the general revisited update, when they implemented shield gating and balanced health and armor across the board, was the kind of stuff they should be focusing on after The New War (IMO), because it's the "glue" that Warframe needs right now, cohesive, general and objective revisits of the content that is already in the game. 

And I really want to know, why the title is different? I received no notification about the title being changed. This is weird. 

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Roble_Viejo said:

And I really want to know, why the title is different? I received no notification about the title being changed. This is weird. 

Huh 😯 I thought you changed the title yourself, and was impressed at your succinct understanding of the general flow of the topic

Edited by (NSW)Greybones

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1 hour ago, BDMblue said:

I am confused on what they showed that is missing? Lich battles? Power transfer? What? Taking off from fortuna? (Why would that be more then just a stage demo? Want a quest?)

Which time? Because there is consistently more hype than substance in any big update announced or idea they put forward...That's been basically a constant since they spitballed dark sectors.

1 hour ago, BDMblue said:

its not that they don’t need more, but I mean community is voting on dev time all the time and I’m tied to this community’s votes. Looks like we won’t get much more to it. Same with lich. I’m guessing we might get 1 lich space battle then they won’t put more time into it. It’s basically going to become archwing 2.0. Thanks for the votes community :(.

It's a cool idea that they listen to their players but it hasn't worked out that well imo.

Which is why I said they need to stop developing by committee and just do stuff they think is awesome without fanfare... But ensure it releases awesomely.  The Community is one of the highest spots for this game but also one of the lowest too precisely due to just that reason imo.

1 hour ago, BDMblue said:

I think I’m right about the test now was kinda a joke, but now it’s not. Maybe in twitch you can take the test pass and it unblocks events for viewing.

Nah.. Developers should never mislead customers. Expecting that savvy gamers will see through their sales spiel and expect less simply doesn't tend to work for more than two games.

For example, Funcom has released some incredible games but two horrendous launches (AO and AoC) basically soured players so much it all but killed a very solid Secret World.

BioWare is in much the same boat now because they intentionally over-hyped and under-delivered on purpose repeatedly... Would you buy another BioWare game based only on sales spiel and initial reviews? I wouldn't.

Is DE there yet?  I don't think so... That said, I do think they have a tendency to hype what amounts to Fresh-Squeezed Lemonade while producing what amounts to Lemon Flavored Kool-Aid instead typically though.

All in all? It could be a lot worse.

That said, Reputation matters... It would be hard for them to announce a new game and me not think whatever they said was a bit over-hyped.

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1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

Which time? Because there is consistently more hype than substance in any big update announced or idea they put forward...That's been basically a constant since they spitballed dark sectors.

It's a cool idea that they listen to their players but it hasn't worked out that well imo.

Which is why I said they need to stop developing by committee and just do stuff they think is awesome without fanfare... But ensure it releases awesomely.  The Community is one of the highest spots for this game but also one of the lowest too precisely due to just that reason imo.

Nah.. Developers should never mislead customers. Expecting that savvy gamers will see through their sales spiel and expect less simply doesn't tend to work for more than two games.

For example, Funcom has released some incredible games but two horrendous launches (AO and AoC) basically soured players so much it all but killed a very solid Secret World.

BioWare is in much the same boat now because they intentionally over-hyped and under-delivered on purpose repeatedly... Would you buy another BioWare game based only on sales spiel and initial reviews? I wouldn't.

Is DE there yet?  I don't think so... That said, I do think they have a tendency to hype what amounts to Fresh-Squeezed Lemonade while producing what amounts to Lemon Flavored Kool-Aid instead typically though.

All in all? It could be a lot worse.

That said, Reputation matters... It would be hard for them to announce a new game and me not think whatever they said was a bit over-hyped.

We agree on everything. Just I get that Tennocon is about selling the community a glimpse into what they want to make warframe into. I don’t know what you think it is, but I realy don’t care. If you ran Tenno con it would be basically a dev stream with less stuff because we can’t confuse the uneducated gamers who don’t know what an unplayable stage demo is....

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5 hours ago, BDMblue said:

If you ran Tenno con it would be basically a dev stream with less stuff because we can’t confuse the uneducated gamers who don’t know what an unplayable stage demo is....

If I ran it?  It would be primarily a way for players who have interacted in game with so many to meet and mingle with their online friends and the developers of the game they love so much—plus some teasers about upcoming projects. That said, I wouldn't have those teasers feature the players being capable of doing something that they don't get to actually do in-game because that would appear dishonest even if they had the best of intentions.

That's over-promising and under-delivering... A gamer's level of education, sophistication, or discernment doesn't even factor into that very simple fact.

Likewise, I wouldn't market a "Unplayable stage demo" as a "Full gameplay demo" as I would fear it to be misleading.

Dramatic interpretations of intended content shouldn't apply when it's a Full Gameplay Demo as then it wouldn't actually be a gameplay demo...Would it?

Bioware did much the same thing with Anthem and in much the same way with their in-engine gameplay reveal for the game and the actual released product. That is precisely what annoyed so many players so quickly.

So we might agree on a lot, but we won't ever agree on this point...

You are welcome to continue thinking that players should be smart enough to know better and I will continue to think that it's the developers job to ensure they don't have to be.

 

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14 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Tennocon seemed like a fine example of what was shown off, the flaws were transparent and the "WiP" label was clear. And I'd rather DE show what they are working on. Ya know, be transparent? You can't ask them to show what will be shipped because even they don't know what will be shipped. Unless, of course, you'd rather them only ever show off finished products, which would mean no transparency on what they are currently working on.

 

Also, was all caps for the title really necessary? Screaming won't make more people hear you.

All of that. ^

That is what most people dont realise. If things are shown that long before a release it is most oftenly a WIP that will also very likely change in several ways before the actual release. Now if what was shown at tennocon was planned for release a few weeks later only, it would have been a different thing if we got liches seperately, then a piece of RJ and squad link now in march. But that tennocon video was 6 months prior to the release of RJ so it wasnt very odd we got the things we did split up into individual releases. Sure, liches were bad and it took slightly too long for them to agree and fix it properly, but everything around the releases were communicated fairly well, heck they were communicated, that is more than most companies bother with in the first place.

If someone got hyped up over the tennocon fotage their really only have themselves to blame and take it as a learning experience never to trust that what is shown in a shocase WIP video is the thing you'll get in your lap. Unless of course it is just a week or two away.

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I am not defending DE here, because I have my own share of frustations about the game (mostly on the affinity system).

I would say everyone is here to blame for the recent outrage, DE’s marketing tends to overhype stuff and players fallen to their hype schemes thus making them go suprised pikachu when they receive the update it didn’t meet their expectations or not realizing that DE said in the devstream that Empyrean is will not be completed on release.

Yes it’s a free game, but that still doesn’t excuse the lack of Quality Control on updates on launch day (a mess filled with bugs). I was even suprised that Railjack on launch day revealed in a lot of game breaking bugs. I can list a few of them.

1. Black screen when exiting the railjack or entering slingshot.

2. Railjack interior walls missing revealing an endless void

3. Random crashes even with a beefy computer.

4. Exiting crewships can sometime make you stuck in an endless void.

5. You enter archwing mode when you enter your railjack and it doesn’t allow you to interact with anything.

And another thing that make Railjack left a sour taste in player’s mouths is the timing on the release. Who is the genius that thought releasing a big update when holiday season about to start is a good idea? Yeah guys let’s drop a big update and do a couple of hotfixes while leaving the update filled with bugs because we’re on vacation! A good way trigger your community am I rite?

For Scarlet Spear, for me it was excused because of Global Pandemic and working from home has also got it’s own share of problems in team communication.

For Kuva Lich reveal, it seems that DE trimming down the length of the nemesis system during development is their biggest mistake here. Because it reduces them from an actual nemesis to just another field boss that is procedurally generated. Hopefully Corpus Liches or the next addition for Kuva Liches will fix that. Railjack Lich Assasination that was revealed on Tennocon when DE?

If I can command DE to create 1 huge update I would definitely want them to add/allow :

1. Syndicate, Arbitration, and Void Fissures, and Lich bounties to Open Worlds.

2. Allowing Kuva Thralls or Liches to spawn on Void Fissure and Syndicate Missions on the nodes they controlled.

3. Void Fissures, Lich Missions, and Lich Assasination on Railjack Missions.

 

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A big problem I have right now with Warframe is that the general gameplay has gotten boring and stale. The thing is, I hate giving criticism without giving solutions alongside it. Would reducing the killing power of the Tenno and making enemies more tanks make the game more interesting? 

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The issue is when those executing the "vision" of the game don't actually play it

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, BDMblue said:

because we can’t confuse the uneducated gamers who don’t know what an unplayable stage demo is....

You mean that unplayable demo, that they themselves got up and played.  I do understand what your saying about demos. 

I don't think you understand what we are saying.   Think God of wars demo.  The creator got on stange and showed off the game play by playing it.  And when it came out its was the same....

Because it's was a live stage demo.   A game play demo. ..  we all understand things change in dev 6 months later.   

All I'm saying is the way they did their demo was misleading.  Much like anthems demo.  Not as bad though. .

Are we uneducated for not knowing none of what they played was real. ? That it wasn't in game engine. .

What they played one month before release was a playerble demo too. .   I'm saying they weren't clear about the first one.  Again misleading. .....

Edited by (PS4)SolarPhantom82

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No game developer can keep all players happy.

No forum for a live game is full of happy players, the complainers live there.

If you take the forums as the tempurature of the game, it's like going to the line in the returns department to get an idea on the state of a store and asking only the angry 2%.

It's a game run by creative people that like to try stuff, some of which works and is well liked, some of which does not work and is not as well liked.

Trying to villify the game company over details that were never promised, nit-picking over specific sets of features that were never promised, etc., and blaming it on a 'lying demo' that was showcasing ideas and then hiding behind ignorance claiming ones internal hype was what promised was promised is a bunch of BS.

This crowd gathered with torches and pitchforks over creative people trying to make fun stuff and somehow not living up to the un-attainable hype in the minds of a few gamers is silly.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Torbamf said:

A big problem I have right now with Warframe is that the general gameplay has gotten boring and stale. The thing is, I hate giving criticism without giving solutions alongside it. Would reducing the killing power of the Tenno and making enemies more tanks make the game more interesting? 

Warframe has GOTTEN boring and stale??? Umm, so what game were you playing before exactly? What version of Warframe was fun and fresh for you?

I've been playing for years and it's practically the same exact game with just... more. 

We have more enemies, mods, missing types, weapons, modifications and buffs, etc.

What exactly was so great about Warframe that's been ruined? 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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21 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Trying to villify the game company over details that were never promised, nit-picking over specific sets of features that were never promised, etc., and blaming it on a 'lying demo' that was showcasing ideas and then hiding behind ignorance claiming ones internal hype was what promised was promised is a bunch of BS.

I agree that they shouldn't be vilified. I also think that players shouldn't just revise facts to fit their favorite narrative either.

  • They do over-promise and under-deliver routinely and have done so for years...fact.
  • They listen to portions of their playerbase, deliver on their random asks, and it has proved to work to both the game's detriment and betterment in the past....also fact.

You don't have to like those facts for them to still remain facts... What's really silly, imo, is hurling loose insults at players annoyed with the results of those facts.

I think White Knighting is cool if you are a fan but you are basically tilting at windmills when you ignore or revise facts to fit your narrative.

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2 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I agree that they shouldn't be vilified. I also think that players shouldn't just revise facts to fit their favorite narrative either.

  • They do over-promise and under-deliver routinely and have done so for years...fact.
  • They listen to portions of their playerbase, deliver on their random asks, and it has proved to work to both the game's detriment and betterment in the past....also fact.

You don't have to like those facts for them to still remain facts... What's really silly, imo, is hurling loose insults at players annoyed with the results of those facts.

I think White Knighting is cool if you are a fan but you are basically tilting at windmills when you ignore or revise facts to fit your narrative.

And I think anyone tossing out 'white knight' is just using emotional arguments to distract.

IMO, what you call over-promise, I call creative people talking about ideas.

IME, most 'player ideas' are actually thing the company had inthe pipe or already though about, they see players want it, 'boom', we added play suggestions...

My insults are ained at the players that cannot seem to understand the world does not revolve around them or the game - I am simply trying to insult those who are insulting the rest of us. 🙂

I don't always succeed, but it's just a game forum, not real life.

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2 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

And I think anyone tossing out 'white knight' is just using emotional arguments to distract.

Funnily enough, I would call anyone likening annoyed players -with concerns rooted in facts- to an unreasoning mob the exact same thing. 😃

The difference being that I am right by definition.

4 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

IMO, what you call over-promise, I call creative people talking about ideas.

IME, most 'player ideas' are actually thing the company had inthe pipe or already though about, they see players want it, 'boom', we added play suggestions...

That's literally a sign that you revise facts to suit your narrative... Thanks for making my point.

5 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

My insults are ained at the players that cannot seem to understand the world does not revolve around them or the game - I am simply trying to insult those who are insulting the rest of us. 🙂

I don't always succeed, but it's just a game forum, not real life.

We aren't talking about the world—We are talking about this specific game.

There are entitled players here like every place else...The difference is the level of validation here quite often makes players feel more entitled. And yes, Everyone is entitled to an opinion... The most one can hope is that the opinion has the benefit of  actually being fact based.

When people like you lob insults here with your level of revised facts used to support them I just see it like: 

leave me alone crying GIF 

 I can't help but find it both funny and sad in equal measure. No offense.

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