Solution to Current Unfolding Events: A "Council of Design"

[GreyDeath789]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

And given the size of the game we'd look at thousands of council memeber in order for it to actually work.

If a design council was going to have thousands of members it would be necessary to look at voting and non-voting members.

To address the changes proposed it would be better to have developer posts on the proposed changes before full implementation. DE does that to some extent...but other times it seems changes are made and dropped on the community without any forewarning.

With Warframe perhaps it would be better to have a number of councils...focused on topics such as:

1. MIssions (covers events, missions, grind, etc.)
2. Warframes
3. UI
4. Cosmetics (covers Art/Animation/Sound?)

This could help represent more of the community.

The main drawback to any council of any type would seem to be that it slows things down for the developer. With the release rate by DE this would require DE and the community to adjust to a slower release pace. In the end it might actually be better since the content may be more stable and better received.

[rand0mname]

37 минут назад, SneakyErvin сказал:

And given the size of the game we'd look at thousands of council memeber in order for it to actually work.

Like Forums, only bigger, with posters actually reading guidelines, posting in correct sections, checking if there is no similar thread on the first page already before starting a new one and actually reading all previous posts before replying?

I am not sure that human civilization would be able to develop to such heights before 2035.

Edit: Or Human Hive Mind Project has a lot to explain. Tests on living subjects were not supposed to start yet!

Edited April 7, 2020 by rand0mname

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, GreyDeath789 said:

If a design council was going to have thousands of members it would be necessary to look at voting and non-voting members.

To address the changes proposed it would be better to have developer posts on the proposed changes before full implementation. DE does that to some extent...but other times it seems changes are made and dropped on the community without any forewarning.

With Warframe perhaps it would be better to have a number of councils...focused on topics such as:

1. MIssions (covers events, missions, grind, etc.)
2. Warframes
3. UI
4. Cosmetics (covers Art/Animation/Sound?)

This could help represent more of the community.

The main drawback to any council of any type would seem to be that it slows things down for the developer. With the release rate by DE this would require DE and the community to adjust to a slower release pace. In the end it might actually be better since the content may be more stable and better received.

I've seen that happen in other games, with official polls regarding certain new releases, where the winning side has ended up being called out as cheaters because the losing side assumed the thing wasnt popular enough since it was less mainstream. Heck in Marvel Heroes the losing side even went to calling people racist and anti-islamic because Angela won the hero poll for a future release and Kamala Kahn (Ms. Marvel) ended up on the bottom. Everything that adds the slightest competition, even when it is something as trivial as a next hero release, it brings out the most vile side in a community. I can see it working here if DE would have strick management over the polls, so they can easily see alt accounts from main accounts and remove double votes etc. So people cannot run off and claim one side is cheating when they won, because it is obviously always the winning side that cheats only.

If they add several groups each group would still need a large enough represenation, since even within each of those sub categories there are so many opinions.

You are also right, it would slow down development since more steps would have to be taken between planning and actual release.

59 minutes ago, rand0mname said:

Like Forums, only bigger, with posters actually reading guidelines, posting in correct sections, checking if there is no similar thread on the first page already before starting a new one and actually reading all previous posts before replying?

I am not sure that human civilization would be able to develop to such heights before 2035.

Edit: Or Human Hive Mind Project has a lot to explain. Tests on living subjects were not supposed to start yet!

Kinda and with far more regulations and monitoring directly by DE. Best would be if they made up the subject, since obviously they'll still have their visions, then let the people voice their opinions on the idea aswell as bring their own view on what this project could entail. But that would also mean more work for DE indirectly since they'd have to be seriously involved so people dont alt-post to shift the lay of the land into their favor etc. They'd also have to read all the feedback and accept that their vision may not be what people want. The optimal approach would be to bring out several idea that people cant have their opinion on, then go with the one that is recieved the best and has the most useful input. In all honesty, I dont think this community (nor DE) are ready for such civilized behavior nor commitment.

Even with the "design a frame" contest it kinda felt like it died off after page one or so. And the guy that won even said that the way DE interpreted the idea wasnt at all what he had in mind when he wrote it. Same as how several people jumped the DE interpretation of the idea and wanted it to be the "meme" frame. Which to me gets kinda silly when the guy that spawned the idea didnt intend it at all to be like that. That kinda shows how far from a working council idea we actually are, a place where thousands would try and have to agree over some ideas.

I think it could be the ultimate nightmare, fitting for a Kreuger frame.

[GreyDeath789]

27 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

If they add several groups each group would still need a large enough represenation, since even within each of those sub categories there are so many opinions.

The idea that a council/committee has to be large goes against the point of having the council/committee.

This isn't a survey...it is (voted/elected) members of a council that represent the player community.

For the claimed 50 million players of Warframe a survey can use 384 responses (confidence level 95%, confidence interval 5) to be representative. That doesn't mean there needs to be 384 members of a council.

People seem to be mixing the concept of a council vs a survey.

[SneakyErvin]

38 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

The idea that a council/committee has to be large goes against the point of having the council/committee.

This isn't a survey...it is (voted/elected) members of a council that represent the player community.

For the claimed 50 million players of Warframe a survey can use 384 responses (confidence level 95%, confidence interval 5) to be representative. That doesn't mean there needs to be 384 members of a council.

People seem to be mixing the concept of a council vs a survey.

Yes but the council will not be chosen by the playerbase i.e the community. So what makes a council work IRL doesnt apply here, since their mandate comes from elsewhere. We want a council that represents the players, if that council is small and picked by DE, the point of having it is kinda moot, since all it is is an extention of DE. So in such a case it would be more treated like a poll, with a bigger size.

Now if we were to pick the council out of the community it would be a different thing, since then they'd be chosen to make our statement and put forth our opinion.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

this became productive

[GreyDeath789]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes but the council will not be chosen by the playerbase i.e the community. So what makes a council work IRL doesnt apply here, since their mandate comes from elsewhere. We want a council that represents the players, if that council is small and picked by DE, the point of having it is kinda moot, since all it is is an extention of DE. So in such a case it would be more treated like a poll, with a bigger size.

Now if we were to pick the council out of the community it would be a different thing, since then they'd be chosen to make our statement and put forth our opinion.

Well, some of the comments by some were talking about CSM style council where members are voted for by the community...

So assume a player voted on council that has the ear of the developers and actually has influence on design decisions...

[SneakyErvin]

29 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Well, some of the comments by some were talking about CSM style council where members are voted for by the community...

So assume a player voted on council that has the ear of the developers and actually has influence on design decisions...

Yeah that I could see working. Those interested could run, then the rest of the community would vote, kinda like a political campaign where each runner describes their view on things and what they wanna get out of it etc.

[MagPrime]

I wanna be a smart@ss soooo bad rn but not sure how it would be received. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by MagPrime

[Tristan_420]

This is such a bad idea for 4 reasons. 
1) You need a criteria for the CD. According for what I read it should be people invested in the game; which means, I guess, people with thousands of hours, high ranking and platinum wasted in the game (sounds like a veteran to me). Moreover, saying "CD is going to be form by random tennos just like you" is kinda contradictory, dont you think? Random or invested players, you can only choose one. 
2) I dont know where the hell you get the idea that content creators are listened. They are not. DE is not listening to anybody. Not even founders. By the way, most content creators are founders,  were invested players with thousands of hours, communities and platinum throw into this game which kinda fits the criteria for a CD (sounds like the partner program to me).
3) Someone already pointed out, but a simple testing squad is more than enough.
4) DE needs to play their game. They are not playing it and thats why they do not understand it.
The sentiment is honorable, but DE already have "the means" to listen to their community. Sadly, they are not listening and I think its because they are embracing the mobile format and get some profit in order to start new projects. 

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

I kind of expected Letter to not respond after my query, unfortunate as it may be.

Been even more interesting to see the newest Dev workshop on Defense Target healing with the cries and pleas for DE to use percentages for their values since everything scales now and the further push towards Zenurik with the absolute destruction of Protective Dash. If those changes go through as is without adjustments or even putting consideration into the community's cries as we actually play this game extensively, then it further shows the issues at hand.

The game is more work than fun, grind is content now with little else to look forward to, and this will only continue on a downward slope as long as DE seemingly refuse to even acknowledge the community's input, much less their own selection of players for this exact purpose. Iirc, only Pablo and certain community DEvs actually play the game past basic testing.

We have glaring mathematical and statistical errors in the game that many much more intelligent community members like @(PS4)Crixus044 commonly figure out  and trivialize, while attempting to point these out to the Devs but falling onto deaf ears every time.

I set the same guy up with Gunground Games to help work on Serious Sam Tormental and they've very much appreciated the balance he has helped bring for the glaring issues.

As players, we know how these things work, as we have to figure something new out after every single nerf that comes with every update now. This information could be paramount to balance and bringing things in line, especially if these brighter Tenno could use their data and have the DEvs at least check on it.

Edited April 7, 2020 by (XB1)Grimsley Clause

[rand0mname]

2 часа назад, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako сказал:

this became productive

WF community - we can derail anything. Upside down, sideways, backwards, spinning in one place or crushing down - no challenge is too great!

2 часа назад, MagPrime сказал:

I wanna be a smart@ss soooo bad rn but not sure how it would be received. 

And no one posted Emperor GIF yet. What is happening with this forums?!

Edited April 7, 2020 by rand0mname

[MagPrime]

Just now, rand0mname said:

WF community - we can derail anything.

Derailments is my specialty, even if they turn into productive discussion.

 

1 minute ago, rand0mname said:

And no one posted Emperor GIF yet. What is happening with this forums?!

All the cool kids got banned.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

1 minute ago, rand0mname said:

WF community - we can derail anything. Upside down, sideways, backwards, spinning in one place or crushing down - no challenge is too great!

And no one posted Emperor GIF yet. What is happening with this forums?!

-another post that made me laugh

[trunks013]

17 hours ago, Skiepher said:

Sorry I have trouble understanding sarcasm. My bad.

Well technicly its not sarcasm that why you have problem with it ^.^ 

@(PS4)LeBlingKing You made me laugh so hard ^.^ thank i needed that

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

1 minute ago, trunks013 said:

Well technicly its not sarcasm that why you have problem with it ^.^ 

@(PS4)LeBlingKing You made me laugh so hard ^.^ thank i needed that

this^

[(PSN)Crixus044]

40 minutes ago, (XB1)Grimsley Clause said:

We have glaring mathematical and statistical errors in the game that many much more intelligent community members like @(PS4)Crixus044 commonly figure out trivialize, while attempting to point these out to the Devs but falling onto deaf ears every time.

You are 100% correct. All requests and any math that we post is ignored because DE doesn't listen, because as DE showed last update, they make decisions based on the most used words from a keyword aggregator. All math is thrown out the window and the opinion of those that take the time to make their opinions on a mathematical standing have equal play to a brand new player that has been fed misinformation.
I'm humbled by your high opinion of me and there are many many more players like me, who have mathematical sense and can make balance a real possibility, if DE listened. That's the thing, they don't seem to listen as much. I got a bunch of respected players that take the time for the game math. I can list quite a few. If DE listened to us, it wouldn't be too hard for us to listen to them, if only we all could just listen.

Edited April 7, 2020 by (PS4)Crixus044

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

You are 100% correct. All requests and any math that we post is ignored because DE doesn't listen, because as DE showed last update, they make decisions based on the most used words from a keyword aggregator. All math is thrown out the window and the opinion of those that take the time to make their opinions on a mathematical standing have equal play to a brand new player that has been fed misinformation.
I'm humbled by your high opinion of me and there are many many more players like me, who have mathematical sense and can make balance a real possibility, if DE listened. That's the thing, they don't seem to listen as much. I got a bunch of respected players that take the time for the game math. I can list quite a few. If DE listened to us, it wouldn't be too hard for us to listen to them, if only we all could just listen.

Heh, I see what you're doing there. Don't worry, i'm listening.

If you'd be as kind to here and there post some of these findings of yours in here to outline the use of a councilor, or at least an attentive and math-based player in general, can be to positively affect the balancing of the game.

[rand0mname]

1 минуту назад, MagPrime сказал:

Derailments is my specialty, even if they turn into productive discussion.

Imagine OP returning to check on this lovely topic and finding:

- an cheap and efficient way to achieve the satisfying balance between what majority of the players want and what developers can do;

- a recipe to delicious military ration that can be preserved for a century (without any negative effects);

- a love poem dedicated to Atlas;

- Nyx build that can put Saryn to shame.

25 минут назад, MagPrime сказал:

All the cool kids got banned.

A pity. I like that GIF, but I swore not to use it for... reasons.

[MagPrime]

2 minutes ago, rand0mname said:

Imagine OP returning to check on this lovely topic and finding:

Like the CIA, Bling is watching.

[rand0mname]

25 минут назад, MagPrime сказал:

Like the CIA, Bling is watching.

While stroking a cat?

It would be terrible to disappoint. Smart and sane people are working on math, I have no degree in military cooking and no idea how to mod Nyx. Soooo... damn. Poetry. Okeeey.

“One of my favorite frames is a mountain in the see of blood and chaos.

He holds the sky on his shoulders.

Behold, he is standing firm on the ground, nothing can shake him.

Behold, his gaze petrifies enemies and he shatters them with his hands.

Behold, he builds walls and summons golems.

Look, his Prime actually has a neck!”

That will do for now.

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by rand0mname

[Yakhul]

So far, I'm being neutral in all of this topic about DE vs Community/Warframe Partners

But even as neutral as i am, i can see that this is pretty much the same that happened some years ago, when the node Viver used to exist.

Problem? Syndicate reputation earn was painfully slow, and it being the new thing back then, everything from the syndicates was coveted. Solution? players found a loot cave called Viver, bring Mag, Trinity, and Excalibur, spam skills, earn easy syndicate reputation. Outcome? DE noticed it, and to address the problem, DE nerfed Mag, Trinity, and Excalibur, into the ground, causing a huge uproar among the community, specially for those who never went to viver, but saw their favorite warframes nerfed into the ground.

The next day, the nerfs were reverted, Viver node replaced, and an official apology from DE was issued. From this came the rework of Excalibur, and a better syndicate reputation earn.

It is literally the same thing now. Scarlet Spear is new, and the rewards coveted, but people are not willing to deal with the grind, so we find a way to make the grind bearable. Limbo was the first solution. DE nerfed it slightly (this nerf i can get behind, because of the whole Adaptation thing from the sentients) But now according to the latest workshop, because of how things are working currently in Scarlet Spear, it is my understanding that DE plans to do a huge nerf do all forms of healing and damage reduction? If that's the case, then we are looking at potentially another Viver.

I understand that the current numbers in the workshop are subject to change, but that doesn't really do anything when the intentions are to clearly nerf, and all of this because of how things are currently working in Scarlet Spear.

I want to believe that because of the whole work from home to avoid the spread of the COVID-19, DE is currently with their hands tied and not having access to all of the tools in the studio, limits them from actually working on balancing the event, instead of nerfing several warframes and mechanics across the board, But i wont drop the hammer on DE just yet, just kind of, worried that this will become the next Viver.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Grimsley Clause said:

Heh, I see what you're doing there. Don't worry, i'm listening.

If you'd be as kind to here and there post some of these findings of yours in here to outline the use of a councilor, or at least an attentive and math-based player in general, can be to positively affect the balancing of the game.

Then listen up my friend.

Let's go with number 1, the changes to stealth melee damage.
For those that don't know, stealth melee damage is additive to crit damage. For example, a weapon with 2x crit damage will deal 8x damage without crit and 9x damage with a crit, why isn't it 16x damage? The formula for crit is crit level*(crit damage-1)+1 = damage multiplier. Stealth use to be a standardized 8x total melee damage multiplier. DE had an issue with this because they coded DoT to count as a separate instance, thus receiving another multiplier. This meant that slash procs received 64x damage. DE realized that this was a really large multiplier, thus they changed stealth completely. Their solution? Make it additive to crit.

When you deal damage while in stealth, the crit formula becomes crit level*(crit damage-1)+8.
if a weapon with 3.8x crit multiplier deals regular damage, then the formula is
0*(3.8-1)+8 = 8x damage. Just like it was before, but with no double or triple dip.
When you deal a yellow crit, it deals (1*(3.8-1)+8 = 9.8x damage. This is way less than before. This means that stealth, which is limited to few frames and difficult to pull off with optimal speed, competes with mods like blood rush, organ shatter, harrow, and other crit modifiers. A weapon at 12x combo counter with 24% crit chance gets 197% crit chance. With organ shatter on stealth, you deal on average 13.5384x damage. Compared to without these mods, that's a damage buff of roughly 64.3%, from 2 mods. That gives each mod roughly +28.18% bonus, which is worse than any other mod other than Primed Pressure Point with 5 status effect condition overload. This is bad.

Why are 2 completely different mechanics competing with eachother. That's an issue with DE's recent crusade on power, they put eveything on one layer of multipliers.

Remember when DE said they are removing combo counter damage buffs to replace with a rise in base damage? Remember when they said they are nerfing blood rush because at high time missions, it has too much of an effect?

Well let's see how much damage these weapons were buffed in damage.
Ack and Brunt 149/50 = ~3x combo. This is roughly the highest buff in base damage of all the melee weapon (more on that later)
So it's say How much of an effect did blood rush have at these?
1+1.65*3 = 5.95x crit chance multiplier
Number of hits required, 135 hits. This means that on a modern blood rush, you would have roughly an 8x multiplier. 1+.6*8 = 5.8x crit chance multiplier.

Did it change much? No. But why did they change it from total crit chance to base crit chance? Ah no mention of that huh? Now true steel has to compete with blood rush, which it only does at 2x combo, which is nothing, making true steel a heavy attack exclusive mod.

Let's talk about that combo counter compensation btw. So ack and brunt was compensated for a 3x combo counter. That makes sense. So jat kittag had 130 base damage, so it should have 390 damage now right? Wrong.
It has 200 damage flat, meaning it was compensated for a 1.5x combo multiplier.
"Well it kinda makes sense since ack & brunt is a faster weapon right?" First off, no, and second, 1.5x combo multiplier took 5 hits to get, while 3x took 135. So Jat Kittag took 27 longer to reach the same combo counter over time? No. It was a nerf disguised as a rework. They didn't compensate anything.

It seems they forgot completely about how stances were the majority of the power of melee. Heavy blades get 3-5x dps from their stances while swords only get 2x, so instead of equalizing stances, they changed EVERYTHING making it all worse

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

2 hours ago, MagPrime said:

Like the CIA, Bling is watching.

Hey, guys, I'm back! How's the thread g-

 

 

[trunks013]

9 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

Hey, guys, I'm back! How's the thread g-

 

 

You forgot the beer but i got ya man

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by trunks013