So what are making Warframe bad currently?

[SneakyErvin]

7 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Have you played any of these? ESO just locks you in a room and makes you play the same game mode. How is that not a content island?

Yes, welcome to the point.

That isn't actually how I defined content islands, but do go off.

Neither of which are optimal ways to farm the thing. Kuva is but one of many resources in this game, and trying to say something isn't a content island just because it drops some kind of resource found elsewhere is... well, not very smart.

As someone who has actually played all of these, I respectfully disagree. Liches in particular took about a week to go through.

Except the currency can be used to purchase potatoes, Kuva (at an actual reasonable rate this time), and other repurchaseable goodies, and maxing out all Nightwave ranks usually takes the better part of the event. It could certainly stand to be a lot better, but by nature it is not isolated content.

You are rather obviously grasping at straws here to try to find reasons to not call content islands content islands. Who exactly are you trying to convince?

Maybe go read up on what content island actually means. It has nothing to do with what you do in a piece of content, it is about what it provides for and how it connects to the rest of the game.

So you agreed with that? Yet you also disagreed with it in your first post when you said:

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is patently false:

So which is it, do you agree that WF is filled with islands or not?

And again, content island isnt about if it is a one and done thing or has longevity.

If you wanna optimize Kuva you will do liches so you are stocked up on relics, so you can gain extra benefit from kuva survival/disruption fissures when they are up. It is the chance for a free baseline flood each rotation. So liches bring you extra income towards an endless resource, which also lets you far kuva and traces at the same time.

Being able to buy potatos doesnt make it possible to come back for more NW ranks when you've hit max rank either way, so NW has a definite end to it. So is an island according to your own reasoning. By your reasoning though, nothing is a content island, since everything effects everything else when you look at progression and there is a reason to go back to everything, or everything makes use of the different tiles.

And no, I'm not grasping for straws since I'm saying everything in WF is a content island, which was the thing you said "patently false" regarding to begin with.

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

No they don't.

 

That is your perception which is fine, but their tone and enthusiasm decreased exponentially. I honestly think they don't like the game up to this day. They seem burned out  and disenchanted with it. Their excitement and that mantra of hype is completely gone. 

 

 

Sorry to say this Ervin but Teridax has a point. Read carefully what he is arguing. 

Then I'm looking at different devstreams compared to you. I think the only hit to enthusiasm I've seen is them being forced to work from home, which makes everything more complicated in several ways. And the reason they dont hype anymore is because of the community and the "promises!" they always scream about when something has been shown. This isnt the first place I've seen this shift in dev attitude.

I've also seen devs lose enthusiasm and it looks like nothing we see from DE. I've seen devs first hand being 100% ashamed by their content shown in live devstreams when the head honchos have forced design decisions, I've seen games first hand die due to such thing. DE's "lack" of enthusiasm isnt even on the same planet if we give a ballpark guesstimation. They seem more to walk around on pink fluffy alien space clouds filled with happy pills and candy in comparison to such a thing.

[Felsagger]

59 minutes ago, (XB1)DOMPATRIOT said:

Responding to Felsagger :

I agree, but I dont think people will reconsider changing their attitude towards the game, I mean if 7 years isn't enough time to realize It, I really don't know how much more time they need.

Do realize that some people take ten years or even more breaking up with their partner?  These couples where incapable of recognizing the fact about how dysfunctional such relation was.

59 minutes ago, (XB1)DOMPATRIOT said:

Also, I don't get what you think DE wants to tell us, the only thing I could imagine is how Easy is to make money with lies and broken promises when you have an addicted consumer.

That's one of the things they are trying to tell us. 

The other thing is that we should not demand over this as if such activity where an essential to our life existence. This is a video game. We can dispose of it and carry on with our lives. We attach ourselves too much over things that are temporary. 

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Then I'm looking at different devstreams compared to you. I think the only hit to enthusiasm I've seen is them being forced to work from home, which makes everything more complicated in several ways. And the reason they dont hype anymore is because of the community and the "promises!" they always scream about when something has been shown. This isnt the first place I've seen this shift in dev attitude.

I've also seen devs lose enthusiasm and it looks like nothing we see from DE. I've seen devs first hand being 100% ashamed by their content shown in live devstreams when the head honchos have forced design decisions, I've seen games first hand die due to such thing. DE's "lack" of enthusiasm isnt even on the same planet if we give a ballpark guesstimation. They seem more to walk around on pink fluffy alien space clouds filled with happy pills and candy in comparison to such a thing.

 

Your second Golum stubborn personality took over your mouse and keyboard.  

Now I understand how your brain works. Let me put it this way. Right now they don't see enthusiastic about their project. 

I wonder if DE likes their own game. I'm starting to question that. (Hint: this is my perception about the situation).

You are trying to disprove a comment of a personal perception that I have about their current state. Looks like this is hard for you to accept where people are not in the same brain frequency that you are right now. Sorry, but people perceive the world different. Many people agreed with my comment too so I'm not alone in such perception. 

[Cegrin]

1 hour ago, Hexsing said:

Railjack and Lich for me.  Especially in Nightwave.   I have a Lich. It on earth. I have never attempted it once.  She just lives there. I gave her earth.  I'm not interested in this forced game mode.

I built my Railjack and I have not even seen what the inside looks like. I have not and will not play it.  

I have spent money on the game and I turn it on here and there.  But I won't spend anymore because I just don't like to forced into modes of play that I don't care for.

But I do have fun here and there.

I feel obliged to point out that you can have earth back and never have to do Liches again.  One of the changes they made to the system was making it truly opt-in.  You'll have to kill this one, of course, but after that you can easily avoid creating another. 

Whereas in the initial release you could accidentally spawn a new Lich because it simply required cutting down a Larvaling, now a new Lich will not be created unless - after you down the larvaling - you do a Parazon kill on it.  So if you don't want a lich (or don't like the weapon it's going to have), it's easy enough to just ignore the larvaling and not spawn one. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Cegrin

[Tuli_Donitsi]

What makes the game bad for me is lack of fun and uniqueness with new gameplay features. I hate Lich system a lot but like Railjack.

-Liches. Exactly same missions without new challenge layers similar to Nightmare missions. All missions are mostly Extermination now and enemy is always the Grineer. It's not fun after a week.

-Railjack was excellent and very fun addition. My only issues at the moment are how little new it offers in the end. At the moment we lack Corpus enemies, NPC crew, lack mods and definitely weapons for our Railjacks. Perhaps in the future we will have more skins or Railjacks with different stats like Archwings and warframes but lets progress calmly with this one.

Right now the only reason why I return Railjack sometimes is to make my current RJ weapons stronger but it takes ages to farm Asterite.

 

What worries me is the 3rd Open World. Most likely it will be exactly the same as Fortuna and Cetus. You grind very similar or copied Bounties which means that after these 6 years it will be the first time ever when I'm going to skip the whole thing apart for the story part. I will do it only now and then when my friend wants to play and just continue opening relics for 20-30min and turn off the game.

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Tuli_Donitsi

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

 

Your second Golum stubborn personality took over your mouse and keyboard.  

Now I understand how your brain works. Let me put it this way. Right now they don't see enthusiastic about their project. 

I wonder if DE likes their own game. I'm starting to question that. (Hint: this is my perception about the situation).

You are trying to disprove a comment of a personal perception that I have about their current state. Looks like this is hard for you to accept where people are not in the same brain frequency that you are right now. Sorry, but people perceive the world different. Many people agreed with my comment too so I'm not alone in such perception. 

No I'm not trying to disprove your comment, I'm just stating my opinion about it in comparison to what I've seen elsewhere. I've been part of a community where the game died when it was 4 and a half years old and it was nothing like what we see here. You could actually see the depression in the devs there, it had a worse feeling than a funeral (it even had that creepy, wierd pervo uncle no one wants to be near (seriously, not kidding even)). I havent seen a single DE devstream lately that hasnt been the same old S#&$s and giggles except for the one shortly before work from home started where Rebb cracked when she talked about the pandemic and how it would effect tennocon etc.

Could you point to a devstream where they dont seem enthusiastic, or where they seem to dislike WF? I mean you must have gotten the impression from something that is concrete.

 

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

On 2020-04-08 at 1:57 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

New content being more focused on wasting our time than creating a fun, rewarding experience.

 

It's not just to waist our time.  It's to push as to buy boosters. Why you think they made its you have to forma those lich weapons 5 times. .  Forma sells. . Repair drones. . Lich hunter pack. . Mod boosters. . Trying to say loot frames were buged.. relasing railjack on console without a single bug fix knowing it was broken just to get that Christmas money. .

DE lost 5 million last year. .   So it's DE designing to get players to break... and spend money..  the days of DE been known as the good devs went out the window with their fake railjack demo,  and they no longer service the player base , but their Chinese overlords. ..

Edited June 29, 2020 by (PS4)SolarPhantom82

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

Broken promises. .. it's one thing to have updates that are buggy , it's another to have updates that arent close to what was showen. ..  like squad link. Railjack.  Lichers.  They weren't just bad. They are broken promises that makes DE look bad.. 

we are going into tennocoin 2020 missing harf the stuff shown at 18-19.  New war.  Squad link. Corpus railjack  . Command.  Third orb mother. . And so on...  and because of that the player base is losing faith in DE.    I predict this years tennocoins numbers will be down like the game.. 

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Maybe go read up on what content island actually means. It has nothing to do with what you do in a piece of content, it is about what it provides for and how it connects to the rest of the game.

That's interesting, because the information you're giving me here is both awfully vague and doesn't seem congruent to what you've been previously arguing. Again, are you sure you're not the one here who doesn't know what a content island is? You certainly seem to be the only one using it in a way nobody else recognizes.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So you agreed with that? Yet you also disagreed with it in your first post when you said:

So which is it, do you agree that WF is filled with islands or not?

If you had actually read my post, you would've seen the bulletpoints where I did in fact list content islands. I am in agreement with you that Warframe in general is full of content islands, but I continue to disagree with your original argument that this was always the case (and should, by extension, always be the case). You seem to be relying an awful lot on false equivalences throughout your argumentation here.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And again, content island isnt about if it is a one and done thing or has longevity.

It is, though. Look at tilesets: when a new tileset is added to the game, that tileset permanently diversifies the game, because every time the player does a mission, they'll have that tileset as part of their repertoire. That tileset adds longevity to the game. New mission types, like Disruption, add longevity to the game as they add to the repertoire of activities we can do when we play. By contrast, the only way to get people to play more ESO is if one adds more rewards directly to ESO. The only way to get people to play more Arbitrations is by adding more rewards to Arbitrations. The only way to get people to play PoE, Vallis, Lich, or Railjack content is to dump more stuff into their very specific reward pools. This is not a design conducive to longevity, because unlike broad tilesets and missions and the like, those things need to be constantly fed new rewards in order to be played, which means they have either high maintenance costs or no longevity instead of contributing positively to the game's lifespan. In short, they end up taking from the game rather than adding to it, which is why it feels like we've had a content drought for the past few years as DE has pushed these self-contained bits of content.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If you wanna optimize Kuva you will do liches so you are stocked up on relics, so you can gain extra benefit from kuva survival/disruption fissures when they are up. It is the chance for a free baseline flood each rotation. So liches bring you extra income towards an endless resource, which also lets you far kuva and traces at the same time.

So are you doing Kuva here or are you doing relics? Your argument makes no sense, and does nothing to detract from the fact that the Kuva provided by Lich farming is tiny compared to what one can get from Kuva Survival.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Being able to buy potatos doesnt make it possible to come back for more NW ranks when you've hit max rank either way, so NW has a definite end to it.

It doesn't, though, we're at the third episode and it's still going.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So is an island according to your own reasoning. By your reasoning though, nothing is a content island, since everything effects everything else when you look at progression and there is a reason to go back to everything, or everything makes use of the different tiles.

... which reasoning exactly, pray tell? It sounds like you're so desperate to play gotcha with my "reasoning" that you've failed to understand even the first thing that's been said about content islands.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And no, I'm not grasping for straws since I'm saying everything in WF is a content island, which was the thing you said "patently false" regarding to begin with.

You really are, my dude. I'm not the only one telling you this either. I would suggest you stop making this about yourself, and perhaps start listening to where others are coming from with their criticism of DE's production pipeline.

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

It's not perfect, but something keeps me playing. I've played plenty of bad games, and this is not one of them. There may be less new stuff added at the rate it was before to keep people playing but with the existing stuff already in place there is still enough to do in this game. I don't mind waiting if it means things are added properly instead of feeling rushed. Other games take dips because while new things are added they require people to pay for new content, one advantage of Warframe being free means there's no cost to play new things. At the rate other games last compared to how long this game last shows they're doing at least some things right. Other game series have released up to 5 games or more in the time Warframe has been the same game so nothing you've earned has been lost. 

Cost for how much time one can put in Warframe is so much better than it is for other games where when a new game is released the old game dies off. 

Personally, I play Warframe at my own pace so I don't have to grind so much that I don't want to use the thing I just got. The only bad thing I've run into with Warframe is it's not the best game to play if it's all you play since any game will end up with nothing left to do. 

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That's interesting, because the information you're giving me here is both awfully vague and doesn't seem congruent to what you've been previously arguing. Again, are you sure you're not the one here who doesn't know what a content island is? You certainly seem to be the only one using it in a way nobody else recognizes.

If you had actually read my post, you would've seen the bulletpoints where I did in fact list content islands. I am in agreement with you that Warframe in general is full of content islands, but I continue to disagree with your original argument that this was always the case (and should, by extension, always be the case). You seem to be relying an awful lot on false equivalences throughout your argumentation here.

It is, though. Look at tilesets: when a new tileset is added to the game, that tileset permanently diversifies the game, because every time the player does a mission, they'll have that tileset as part of their repertoire. That tileset adds longevity to the game. New mission types, like Disruption, add longevity to the game as they add to the repertoire of activities we can do when we play. By contrast, the only way to get people to play more ESO is if one adds more rewards directly to ESO. The only way to get people to play more Arbitrations is by adding more rewards to Arbitrations. The only way to get people to play PoE, Vallis, Lich, or Railjack content is to dump more stuff into their very specific reward pools. This is not a design conducive to longevity, because unlike broad tilesets and missions and the like, those things need to be constantly fed new rewards in order to be played, which means they have either high maintenance costs or no longevity instead of contributing positively to the game's lifespan. In short, they end up taking from the game rather than adding to it, which is why it feels like we've had a content drought for the past few years as DE has pushed these self-contained bits of content.

It doesn't, though, we're at the third episode and it's still going.

... which reasoning exactly, pray tell? It sounds like you're so desperate to play gotcha with my "reasoning" that you've failed to understand even the first thing that's been said about content islands.

Tilesets have nothing to do with it though. If you go down the tileset route and say that things that use previous tiles arent islands then RJ isnt an island since it uses 2 currently exsisting grineer tiles in its first "beta" iteration and it uses mobs from other exsisting parts of the game, aswell as the archwing mechanics and gameplay. ESO also has something constant we can grind for, since whenever a new prime is released it is a place to go in order to grind a few specific radiant relics, things that constantly get added over time. Arbitrations also has the constantly repeatable reward Vitus Essence, which can be used for efficient Kuva farming aswell as obtaining archgun rivens over and over, things that we never get enough of. PoE and Vallis follow the same thing since with each new prime or unvault it is a place to pinpoint your farm of specific relics.

Quote

So are you doing Kuva here or are you doing relics? Your argument makes no sense, and does nothing to detract from the fact that the Kuva provided by Lich farming is tiny compared to what one can get from Kuva Survival.

The two go hand in hand, you use the relics while you farm in kuva survival or disruption for a chance at more kuva equal to a flood.

Quote

You really are, my dude. I'm not the only one telling you this either. I would suggest you stop making this about yourself, and perhaps start listening to where others are coming from with their criticism of DE's production pipeline.

So me saying everything is like an island is now in defense of DE? How? It is probably one of the worst parts about WF since the game doesnt feel coherant, this can also be seen when we go through the quests in the wrong order, it further shows the isle setup and the negative in such a thing. The whole "you dont agree with me so you're a whiteknight" mindset doesnt really work when disagreeing still criticizes DE, even more so than you do.

 

[Teridax68]

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Tilesets have nothing to do with it though. If you go down the tileset route and say that things that use previous tiles arent islands then RJ isnt an island since it uses 2 currently exsisting grineer tiles in its first "beta" iteration and it uses mobs from other exsisting parts of the game, aswell as the archwing mechanics and gameplay.

That's just taking the reasoning backwards, though, which is why it makes zero sense. Adding new tilesets is adding durably to the game, reusing those tilesets is simply cashing in on that durable addition. It is not inherently adding durably to the game on its own.

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

ESO also has something constant we can grind for, since whenever a new prime is released it is a place to go in order to grind a few specific radiant relics, things that constantly get added over time.

Which typically are either found elsewhere or migrate elsewhere. Putting those relics elsewhere would cause just as much play to occur, so the replayability there is not an intrinsic property of ESO.

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Arbitrations also has the constantly repeatable reward Vitus Essence, which can be used for efficient Kuva farming aswell as obtaining archgun rivens over and over, things that we never get enough of.

Except Arch-Gun rivens are arguably the most limited in application, and farming Kuva through Vitus Essence is much less efficient than alternatives. Really, the above already answers the question of trying to justify content islands through unrelated extrinsic rewards.

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

PoE and Vallis follow the same thing since with each new prime or unvault it is a place to pinpoint your farm of specific relics.

See above. You are attempting to use the addition of extrinsic rewards completely unrelated to content islands as an attempt to deny the existence of content islands, which not only makes little sense, but suggests an excessive bottom-line fixation on rewards, given that throughout your argumentation you appear to have had trouble looking beyond the rewards associated with these bits of content.

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The two go hand in hand, you use the relics while you farm in kuva survival or disruption for a chance at more kuva equal to a flood.

You... don't consume Requiem relics during Kuva Survival unless it's specifically a fissure mission? Rather confused here by what you're trying to get at here, particularly as none of this is really relevant to Liches themselves.

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So me saying everything is like an island is now in defense of DE? How? It is probably one of the worst parts about WF since the game doesnt feel coherant, this can also be seen when we go through the quests in the wrong order, it further shows the isle setup and the negative in such a thing. The whole "you dont agree with me so you're a whiteknight" mindset doesnt really work when disagreeing still criticizes DE, even more so than you do.

This is interesting, because I didn't actually call you a white knight, I merely pointed out you were ignoring valid criticism from other people. You chose to accuse yourself of that, which I think makes your position in this argument all the more transparent. Not only is trying to claim that you've criticized DE more than someone else a rather silly brag, it's simply not true, as shown by even a cursory look at your post history, where you repeatedly attempt to invalidate criticism made by other posters. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

That's just taking the reasoning backwards, though, which is why it makes zero sense. Adding new tilesets is adding durably to the game, reusing those tilesets is simply cashing in on that durable addition. It is not inherently adding durably to the game on its own.

Which typically are either found elsewhere or migrate elsewhere. Putting those relics elsewhere would cause just as much play to occur, so the replayability there is not an intrinsic property of ESO.

Except Arch-Gun rivens are arguably the most limited in application, and farming Kuva through Vitus Essence is much less efficient than alternatives. Really, the above already answers the question of trying to justify content islands through unrelated extrinsic rewards.

See above. You are attempting to use the addition of extrinsic rewards completely unrelated to content islands as an attempt to deny the existence of content islands, which not only makes little sense, but suggests an excessive bottom-line fixation on rewards, given that throughout your argumentation you appear to have had trouble looking beyond the rewards associated with these bits of content.

You... don't consume Requiem relics during Kuva Survival unless it's specifically a fissure mission? Rather confused here by what you're trying to get at here, particularly as none of this is really relevant to Liches themselves.

This is interesting, because I didn't actually call you a white knight, I merely pointed out you were ignoring valid criticism from other people. You chose to accuse yourself of that, which I think makes your position in this argument all the more transparent. Not only is trying to claim that you've criticized DE more than someone else a rather silly brag, it's simply not true, as shown by even a cursory look at your post history, where you repeatedly attempt to invalidate criticism made by other posters. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I'm not denying the existance of content islands, I'm saying everything in WF is a content island since the variables you use are not what decides what is or isnt a content island. The purpose and the goal is what matters. And everything in WF has a different purpose and goal that is unrelated to other content pieces in the game. The only thing that connects everything is that it improves our "avatar", but that doesnt change that it is just all made up of seperate content islands that have zero connection to eachother. Hence why there were many complaints on RJ since it was supposed to actually bind it all together so the game stops being filled with islands, yet RJ just turned out as yet another island among the rest, just another seperate mode.

If you think vitus essence is "much less efficient" you havent done the proper arbitrations. When the correct ones are active they are better than anyhting else.

And obviously I'm talking about fissures and not normal survival. That kinda explains itself dont you think? And it is relevant to liches since it gives a reason to go back and farm thralls.

[Teridax68]

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm not denying the existance of content islands, I'm saying everything in WF is a content island since the variables you use are not what decides what is or isnt a content island.

Okay, but as pointed out already, this isn't true, and pretending that it is both detracts from the issues that cause content to be truly disconnected from the rest of the game, and makes the task of addressing those issues seem much less surmountable than it actually is.

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The purpose and the goal is what matters. And everything in WF has a different purpose and goal that is unrelated to other content pieces in the game. The only thing that connects everything is that it improves our "avatar", but that doesnt change that it is just all made up of seperate content islands that have zero connection to eachother.

I don't think that's quite it, though, because again, a lot of stuff in the game genuinely does connect to itself, it's just that when DE tries to create new self-contained content with its own bespoke incentive structure, it's bound to be disconnected from the rest of Warframe. This is one of the reasons why updates like Kuva Liches and Railjack flopped, while updates like the Jovian Concord and Deadlock Protocol have been largely recognized as successful.

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Hence why there were many complaints on RJ since it was supposed to actually bind it all together so the game stops being filled with islands, yet RJ just turned out as yet another island among the rest, just another seperate mode.

This I am in agreement with.

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

If you think vitus essence is "much less efficient" you havent done the proper arbitrations. When the correct ones are active they are better than anyhting else.

Or, perhaps, you haven't been doing Kuva Survival right, particularly as the mode is far more consistent.

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And obviously I'm talking about fissures and not normal survival. That kinda explains itself dont you think? And it is relevant to liches since it gives a reason to go back and farm thralls.

But if going on a fissure just to get more Kuva is your goal, you don't even need Liches, you can just run Kuva Flood missions for a guaranteed relic. Again, you are trying to use irrelevant arguments to deny the obvious.

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, but as pointed out already, this isn't true, and pretending that it is both detracts from the issues that cause content to be truly disconnected from the rest of the game, and makes the task of addressing those issues seem much less surmountable than it actually is.

I don't think that's quite it, though, because again, a lot of stuff in the game genuinely does connect to itself, it's just that when DE tries to create new self-contained content with its own bespoke incentive structure, it's bound to be disconnected from the rest of Warframe. This is one of the reasons why updates like Kuva Liches and Railjack flopped, while updates like the Jovian Concord and Deadlock Protocol have been largely recognized as successful.

This I am in agreement with.

Or, perhaps, you haven't been doing Kuva Survival right, particularly as the mode is far more consistent.

But if going on a fissure just to get more Kuva is your goal, you don't even need Liches, you can just run Kuva Flood missions for a guaranteed relic. Again, you are trying to use irrelevant arguments to deny the obvious.

The problem is that DE have created everything in a disjointed fashion. While tiles may be shared between game modes, each mode has their own purpose and goal. For instance, we dont go and do defection for anyhting but harrow parts, just as we dont do disruption for much else than getting specific frames/weapons or specific resources for a specific frame. This is what makes it all content island design.

I guess the parts of WF that are furthest away from being islands and the parts of the game that may turn most of the game into not being content islands would be liches, fissures and requiem fissures, since they connect different parts of the content. Fissures require other missions in order to obtain relics, then you crack those relics in fissures, So this could be seen as all modes/missions that reward relics could be excluded from being islands. Same with liches, you run lich missions to get requiem relics, then you run those fissures to get the requiem mods, that then are used in lich missions to beat the lich. But this is stretching it really thin in the end since WF still feels very disjointed and islandish.

You cant really do Kuva survival wrong. It is just pointless to jump into Kuva survival if the right arbitration is up instead if you need are looking for Kuva. 

Floods only reward 1 relic per hour. Liches allow you to stock up on them when you want in order to prepare for a boosted fissure session.

[Hypernaut1]

I personally don't mind "content islands". Besides the fact it's being used as a buzzword, I like being able to do what I want without depending on other content. I can ignore PoE, I can ignore railjack, I can ignore the liche, I can ignore quest, or I can grind then when I want to. 

That's a positive in my eyes. I would hate if I needed to run through every part of WF to engage in the content I'm actually interested in. 

[Teridax68]

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The problem is that DE have created everything in a disjointed fashion. While tiles may be shared between game modes, each mode has their own purpose and goal. For instance, we dont go and do defection for anyhting but harrow parts, just as we dont do disruption for much else than getting specific frames/weapons or specific resources for a specific frame. This is what makes it all content island design.

See, the issue of extrinsic rewards and how they're structured is one I agree is a problem in Warframe overall, and is something that ought to be addressed. However, that problem is itself separate from that of content islands, which have their own issues, and it seems like you've tried to apply the term to something else entirely, hence the confusion in this discussion. At this stage, I'm not even sure if we're really disagreeing, though this discussion has been fairly confused throughout.

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I guess the parts of WF that are furthest away from being islands and the parts of the game that may turn most of the game into not being content islands would be liches, fissures and requiem fissures, since they connect different parts of the content. Fissures require other missions in order to obtain relics, then you crack those relics in fissures, So this could be seen as all modes/missions that reward relics could be excluded from being islands. Same with liches, you run lich missions to get requiem relics, then you run those fissures to get the requiem mods, that then are used in lich missions to beat the lich. But this is stretching it really thin in the end since WF still feels very disjointed and islandish.

Okay, but at the end of it, liches are currently designed in such a way that they need to be directly given dedicated rewards in order for players to play them. This isn't simply drop tables on specific nodes, this is a system being currently so self-contained that it can't be made to connect properly to the rest of the game. In order for Liches to connect properly to the rest of the game, the incentives for fighting them need to be completely different.

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You cant really do Kuva survival wrong. It is just pointless to jump into Kuva survival if the right arbitration is up instead if you need are looking for Kuva. 

Which isn't guaranteed to happen, and locks you until the next hour when you leave, which is why Kuva Survival is far more consistent.

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Floods only reward 1 relic per hour. Liches allow you to stock up on them when you want in order to prepare for a boosted fissure session.

Except regular Kuva Siphon missions still have a high chance of giving the player a relic, so even that is arguably more reliable than farming Thralls.

[Felsagger]

Another of Ervin's brain modes? This particular stubborn brain mode does damage control for DE. I think he must get a salary as a PR employee for the company. ^^

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Felsagger

[SneakyErvin]

57 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

See, the issue of extrinsic rewards and how they're structured is one I agree is a problem in Warframe overall, and is something that ought to be addressed. However, that problem is itself separate from that of content islands, which have their own issues, and it seems like you've tried to apply the term to something else entirely, hence the confusion in this discussion. At this stage, I'm not even sure if we're really disagreeing, though this discussion has been fairly confused throughout.

Okay, but at the end of it, liches are currently designed in such a way that they need to be directly given dedicated rewards in order for players to play them. This isn't simply drop tables on specific nodes, this is a system being currently so self-contained that it can't be made to connect properly to the rest of the game. In order for Liches to connect properly to the rest of the game, the incentives for fighting them need to be completely different.

Which isn't guaranteed to happen, and locks you until the next hour when you leave, which is why Kuva Survival is far more consistent.

Except regular Kuva Siphon missions still have a high chance of giving the player a relic, so even that is arguably more reliable than farming Thralls.

I think we disagree on what part of WF would be islands if it had both islands and not. I'm just of the opinion that it only has islands since none of the content pieces actually connect to the others in a proper way. Which you point out with Liches, while they connect they still dont connect due to their self contained purspose/goal, which transitions to fissures aswell. Even though they connect to other parts of the game their purpose and goal is isolated to that specific mode.

While we could argue that the star chart isnt made up of isles, it still is. That is because the loot is split up so much across different planets, so while the modes may offer a multitude of material rewards for the "greater goal" of the game and hide their island nature, they are still very much isles since they serve a very specific purpose and goal. It forces us back to a specific place for very basic things, a place we've outgrown a long time ago. If it wasnt an island we'd be able to get those basic things everywhere, the way it should be given the very open ended nature of WF progress. We can see this line of thinking when people put forth their reasons for why RJ is an isle. Because it is seperated, not only when it comes to progression, but it also has yet another bunch of resources tied to it, serving a new purpose and a new goal from the rest of the game. That is why I see everything as an isle in WF because everything has their own rewards more or less.

Railjack had the right thought behind it even in its isolated state. This is because it actually has a progression system that lets us transition in a proper non-isle manner between the proximas. Where the things we chase is proxima 1 will be useful later on, but those things arent exclusive to that proxima alone, but the proxima is still more tailored to support the drops we get there (MK1 stuff). The game however doesnt force us back to proxima 1 in order to get materials when we are about to build MK3 things. This makes the 3 proximas properly connected and turn them into not being isles but instead just Railjack content. Railjack itself is still an isle in the rest of the game, it has just managed to break the isle pattern within itself. Hopefully something that we will get for the rest of the game aswell.

edit: typo.

Edited June 30, 2020 by SneakyErvin

[SneakyErvin]

20 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Another of Ervin's brain modes? This particular stubborn brain mode does damage control for DE. I think he must get a salary as a PR employee for the company. ^^

 

 

 

 

Atleast read what we are discussing mate.

[Teridax68]

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think we disagree on what part of WF would be islands if it had both islands and not.

But I don't think we do: I too believe that even if we fixed DE's recent mistakes with actual content islands, Warframe as a whole would still have the problem of relying too much on extrinsic incentives to play, and distributing those incentives in such a way that we're inevitably made to only play a tiny subset of the game's entire content. My point is that this problem is distinct from that of individual content islands, which themselves specifically need to be connected to the rest of the game in a manner that cannot be solved simply by giving them more rewards.

 

[Hexsing]

On 2020-06-29 at 2:29 PM, Cegrin said:

I feel obliged to point out that you can have earth back and never have to do Liches again.  One of the changes they made to the system was making it truly opt-in.  You'll have to kill this one, of course, but after that you can easily avoid creating another. 

Whereas in the initial release you could accidentally spawn a new Lich because it simply required cutting down a Larvaling, now a new Lich will not be created unless - after you down the larvaling - you do a Parazon kill on it.  So if you don't want a lich (or don't like the weapon it's going to have), it's easy enough to just ignore the larvaling and not spawn one. 

Actually this is pretty good information.   I have not visited earth since the dawn of the Lich.  I'm just worried if I mess it up she will move to other planets.  

So she's just been hanging out yelling at me.  

But I have not really been logging in much these days.  I'm not sure why.  When I do I have some fun, but then I sort of ticker out.

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But I don't think we do: I too believe that even if we fixed DE's recent mistakes with actual content islands, Warframe as a whole would still have the problem of relying too much on extrinsic incentives to play, and distributing those incentives in such a way that we're inevitably made to only play a tiny subset of the game's entire content. My point is that this problem is distinct from that of individual content islands, which themselves specifically need to be connected to the rest of the game in a manner that cannot be solved simply by giving them more rewards.

 

Yeah, more rewards wont solve it, what they'd actually need to do is cut down on the number of reward types we have, so more of the content gets a useful function, so no matter what planet or individual node you play, it will provide towards the same goal. Of course, certain content needs to have specific rewards that may be exclusive to it, similar to dungeons etc. of other games, but the more basic things need to be available in all of it to tie everything together.

Granted, it wouldnt be easy to have RJ make use of previous resources since some people have 7 years worth of resources in their stacks, but the system could instead have been done differently to make it less detached. They could have done something like have RJ versions of the current resources that could also be used as the normal version of the resource in other crafting, so RJ could be another option when people need to farm materials for something. This would make it less of an island and just another option that connects with the rest of what we do. This is something they could have done previously aswell instead of introducing 2 million different crafting materials that arent backwards compatible. Then after something has been out for a while they could convert all old materials to the latest one and update old loot tables with the latest material. That would avoid item bloat and it would still give them a way to introduce a new material when new things are released so veterans just dont blow through it instantly. It would also give everything the same basic purpose and goal, then exclusive items could be placed in the modes aswell. This would remove many of the islands.

Edited June 30, 2020 by SneakyErvin

[Felsagger]

Railjack 3.0 is their last attempt.