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Exqualater

Why you dont like kuva liches?

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Hello. In somedays. i see post about this. "Kuva liches worst content in Warframe i ever seen", "Lost times", "Warframe is down" etc. But i have nice opinion about this and why?

1. Kuva liches can get back in game.

Yes. In someday, i at random up the lich. I was a little angry, because I really did not want to do this. But then I completely change my opinion. I am a player who is in no hurry to play, but sometimes I still feel a lack of something that would make me return to the game. Kuva liches is the solution. Since the appearance of the lich, I always had a desire to deal with him. It might just as well be the final game and that’s why. 

 

2. Good weapon

Yes, kuva weapon for me one of the strong weapons. Bramma kuva, Quartakk kuva is need for attention. But with riven mod, it maybe will most good weapon for all situations. You can create a weapon for all variant of damage: gas, toxin, radiation, head, slash, cold and more. Isnt it cool?

 

3. Nice helper

It may not be as good as a weapon, but sometimes support on a mission would certainly not hurt. Kuva liches is the solution. Sometimes help is very necessary and if a lich arrives on a mission in difficult times, this distracts the enemy and can be safely killed (if we are talking about ordinary enemies, and not about bosses in the vallis or plains)

Conclusion: Maybe you told me "Complete requiem murmurs is very long", but i ask you "Why your haste playing?". Maybe also for me, murmurs will not good by the time, but for the weapon or helper i might collect this. 

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I havent started it yet, I'm already op enough and have everything I need in game. 

I have frames and weapons for every situation and scenario and they have more than enough forma.

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IMO it's a tedious separate game mode. I need to go to lich missions specifically and farm some murmurs or whatever, then i need to guess mod which i need to rng out of some relics, to get a weapon that i need to sink forma into and levelup 5 times or so. Why would i do that?

If i could play a game and occasionally interact with liches, i wouldn't mind it. But why would i want to play basically another game mode for the sake of playing another game mode? I don't really care about mastery rank or those weapons.

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I dislike liches for a number of reasons.
- The crazy grind the specific weapon or lich the want....requires a long time
- The amount of time it could and does take to get specific mods..
- the minimum 1:30 - 2:00hour long grind to get enough murmurs or have extreme rng luck.
That grind wouldnt be much of an issue...if it was fun.
Doing missions that have no main purpose to you but to get a lich and then not getting the lich you want....is annoying
Doing random kuva siphons and floods when you dont want to do kuva stuff feels 100% forced (does make sense tho)
And spending 2 hours grinding boring random missions with no sense to them or other purpose is not fun

Also edit:

These liches were promised to be intense arch rivals that you would spend weeks being at odds against, a tough challenge.

Which ended up being....rng lich, random not needed relic grind, rng reqiuem mods/order
Nothing what like was promised

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Mostly I dislike them because they're not what they originally advertised.

I was excited when they were going to be an actual nemesis for your character, one that would adopt your warframe colors, one that would take on the abilities of the frames that killed them. A persistent adversary that would be tailored to your experience as a player. One that would impact the game as a whole, one that had its own capital ship and when you finally did defeat them (after killing them dozens of times only to have them come back like some kind of immortal monster) it was on that ship and was an actual boss fight with unique mechanics for your lich. They showed off amazing animations and all sorts of cool stuff liches were going to be able to do.

Then they finally release it and none of that was in the game. They don't take on your colors, they don't acquire the abilities you used to kill them instead getting a generic pre-made set of skills that sometimes doesn't even include a single skill from the progenitor frame. They're just randomly generated mini-bosses with generic personalities that only exist as a vessel to carry weapons to grind. They're not liches, they're not fun, they're not what was promised.

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I don't like liches because at the end of the day, you're doing the same old boring missions you've done a thousand times, with the occasional "Press X to kill a thing" added in. And no, having lvl 110 enemies doesn't qualify as making the missions challenging or whatever. There are plenty of frames that either lock down the map or kill it before it can spawn.

The missions themselves are just lazy, basically just crank the enemy level up and spawn a thrall or 10. That's the only connection they have with the liches, When we do a mobile defense, we're not stealing lich data that adds to our murmurs, when we're doing exterminate we're not facing a higher than normal number of thralls, it's all just the same thing. The lich fights themselves are boring too, basically just a little tankier versions of normal mobs with wow, resistances? Yeah Mesa exists and she doesn't care about any of that, she just looks at them and they die.

At the very least if we could farm fissures or something while farming murmurs, it would at least feel rewarding.

Also no, it's not a nice helper, it's a waste of space that does nothing to enemies but tickle them.

2 hours ago, Exqualater said:

You can create a weapon for all variant of damage: gas, toxin, radiation, head, slash, cold and more.

Where gas and slash liches DE?

Don't even get me started on the 5 forma requirement on the kuva weapons. At least the saving grace of that is that you can slap whatever mods you on want them.

I forgot this scenario: You run lich missions, you're a few murmurs away from knowing the 3rd requiem. You get the last murmur and hurry to the exit then boom, your lich spawns. Since you didn't know the last requiem, you fail to kill it and now you're forced to run lich missions for no payout for another bloody half an hour until it decides to show up again.

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Too much RNG, too much grind.

  • Weapon you want? RNG to get it (better than before, still bad though).
  • 60% you want? RNG.  fusing helps, but...I shouldn't need in a worst case scenario 10x liches to get a max weapon.
    • So is fusing really helping RNG when the best way to fuse is to pray to RNG gods for higher base weapon
  • Ephemera you want? RNG

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The Liches are nothing special in the slightest.

Just slightly improved standard enemies and they don't really have a lasting impact.

 

Both of those are traits that Steve stated would not be what the Liches were, but here we are.

 

 

Then onto the grinding...

  • Requiem Relics and how Parazon Mods can "deplete" is just more tedium on top of an already boring grind.
  • Murmur grinding being isolated to one type of node that has zero other useful rewards only adds to the negative aspect of Liches.
  • The Parazon Mod matching system is more chore-"content" and it would be healthier to the players if the "check" would run through each of your mods instead of stopping at the first "Fail".

 

Now onto the Kuva Weapons themselves...

  • Putting 5 Forma into each weapon just to get them to Max is idiotic and incredibly mind-numbing.
    • I have maxed 99% of them so far.
  • The idea of having to do that to the Paracesis was interesting and it made sense for weapons like that, but doing it to ALL Kuva weapons only devalues that idea.

 

Now for RNG...

  • Once again DE is forgetting the original pitch for Ephemeras and only having them obtainable through RNG.
  • RNG Weapons with RNG Stats... just no. This is poor design, nothing else.

 

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Issues with Kuva Lich start right at the beginning, you complete already over done low level missions to get a larvling to appear, which has randomized weapons. By now there should have been a method to either limit bad luck, or a way to force a weapon to appear... after all there's a ton of resources that have no real use.

After you spawn the Kuva Lich, you're off to doing missions you've already done, as Kuva Lich is just a new enemy dropped into existing missions, with enemies all swapped to Grineer based on the host's Kuva Lich level.

Then you're just repeating these missions until you fill 3 bars, and filling them involve going through annoyingly long animations on one thrall at a time unless you do the bug to skip it, which causes other bugs at times. When you finally do fill all 3, you still have to guess the correct order if you haven't figured out any yet, which is a problem because filling all 3 doesn't even guarantee your Lich will appear... and the Lich appearance is very inconsistent, I've had cases where my Lich didn't show up a single time until I figured out two of the needed mods.

When you finally are ready to face your Lich... it's just disappointing because in the end a Lich is just another Grineer unit with extra steps to take down. They're easy to fight with their main mechanic being it may 1 shot you if you enter melee range, but why does that matter when ranged weapons kill them quickly anyways, and they have no real mechanics? Not only is fighting the Lich itself a disappointment, but the rewards are too. Throughout all the Murmur grind and guessing mod order, your rewards are a laughable amount of Kuva and the weapon they had with a random % bonus.

I personally don't mind the whole relic/parazon mod situation, it's at least an extra way for people to earn plat as the mods sell for 10-15 plat easily (pc) and it added an extra way to get Kuva through the requiem fissure endless bonus and 1,200 from each relic if someone doesn't care for the mods or selling them. My only issue with the relics are the amber stars, once you consider the mods turn into 1,000 endo, and I don't think the Weapon Exilus Adapter make a very good "rare" reward when you can just get them easily from Syndicates, or the fact they are only 20 plat each on the market.

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5 forma for mastery points

That alone ensures that I will never put any more effort into playing liches beyond getting the mastery.

Even if that wasn't a problem, the thrall kill rate is too repetitive(much less spawns giving more points would alleviate the burnout)

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Liches are super fun! I always have one I am working on. It doesn't take long to complete them, either. Once I max out all the weapons I like, I'll work on ephemeras, though that can be a very dismal RNG where you get nothing you want if the lich has no ephemera.

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Much like Railjack they weren't what they were advertised to be.

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I don't like the Kuva Lich stuff because -> murmur farm

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RNG grindy loot crate made from mostly your own rewards it had stolen. No satisfying boost in resources for the time involved. The 'free' built weapon being its only offer seems... anticlimactic? And I haven't seen anything good mentioned about converted lichs to ever convert one myself. RJ crew? Sure, just as soon as I see it being useful.

I'm used to old warframe. Kill a boss get a blueprint. Kill a boss get a part. Now its grind a hundred thralls, kill the boss up to 13 times over the course of a few hours. if you're super unlucky. IMO It doesn't translate into a better system.

Fighting the same map boss over and over is the same effect but more efficient in time. But now they keep adding more keys/Beacons/etc to refight the same trash but at a slower pace. Just stretching out rewards more and more as updates become slower and slower.

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most of my original gripes with Liches were solved, but tere's still a couple:

- more personalities are needed. it hurts knowing that they made two personalities - amusing, not very serious male Lich and cold-hearted, machine like female Lich - and they tried to dress them up by changing the pitch and tone of their voices. it proves just how rushed The Old Blood was and more variety would at least make the dialogue with players more interesting.

- the murmur grind does take a while. no, I'm not in a rush, but it DOES take a long-a$$ time to get the last requiem no matter what. if it were about 3/4 of what it is now, I think that would be fair. it especially sucks when the final requiem is the first one in a correct sequence: none of your stab attempts will work until you've gone through the ENTIRE murmur farm with a bunch of guesses to boot. it's not as bad now that the backbreakers have been removed, but even without the instakill mechanic, it kinda sucks.

 

 

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At times it feels like it is only this...

Kill blue grineer troops until you get 3 digit code to open lich vault.

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The gameplay loop almost totally consists of the murmur farm, that is just repeating the same bland, trivial and copy-pasted missions existing in the game from 7 years (missions that are all, by the way, just the same repetitive "go kill and extract' with different names). The actual fights with the Lich are so sporadic, easy and fast that i don't get to enjoy anything out of the encounter. 

The mechanic of having to randomly guess the weakness of the Lich is, for me, a shameful failure of videogame design. Surrendering the opportunity of some new freash gameplay to mere RNG is sad, disheartening, embarassing. The level of depth of a crappy mobile game. A fruit ninja slot machine.

5 formas to mastery each weapon is a predatory theft of time and resources with the sole purpose of sinking the maximum amount of player time with the minimum design effort.

The murmur grind is disconnected from the rest of the game: you go into murmur missions for the sole purpose of murmur grind. The only consequence of having a Lich outside murmur missions is that it steals some of your rewards. So captivating.

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1 hour ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Murmurs are a pain to farm and so are requiem mods.

You said it for me: the grind

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1 minute ago, (XB1)WolfKingLeo said:

You said it for me: the grind

Right now I am completely burned out from trying to forma equipment, I don't want to re-level stuff anymore, without some new weapons I wanted to build I don't feel like playing any other mission types to farm for other stuff, is just a pain, that includes liches.

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it would be nice if liches could be put on the gear wheel with a shared cooldown maybe rather than just showup whenever, would be way more useful!

it would be nice if it required less mercy kills to find out what relics I needed because really just spamming missions back to back for hours no real reward until the end gets tedious

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Murmur farm is about 2-3x what it should be.  Lich's pose zero threat to some frames, are a tedious chore for other frames, and most of the dialogue is cringe.

I will admit they are exponentially better than launch.  Once you build up your req mods you are buried in requiem relics just from murmur farming, but I'd still rather just the mods drop themselves.

Biggest negative: all the weapons that are great will end up nerfed, so its kind of a "why bother getting them" scenario.  Most of my gripes could be easily fixed though

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