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Twistedsparkle

the lack of difficulty is driving me away

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wow  another user,  of probably 1000+ hours of warframe.  saying  .. look!  this new game i just played is better than warframe.  I only played 10-30 hours of it but its better! i tell you its Better!

Come back and open a thread about how bad warframe has become, when you've played 1000+ hours of Doom and know every boos fight and encounter like the back of you hand. and you start going on auto pilot there too. 

All games go stale.  you like them like a book, but after completing it and finishing it, if there is nothing more to do in the game it becomes stale. 

If you've actively played warframe for more than 3 years and put over 1000 hours into it, then you slam it for being too easy or too boring   wel lwhat do you expect? if you've played something for 1000 hours.  

I ask alot of people why they keep buying Fifa each year. they tel lme the new season names are in it, its better than the last one.  

I watch my brother play fifa, every time he plays the S#&$ out of it til hes done the campaign then he returns it to get other game. usually thats about 30 hours maybe a week depending on his free time. 

I've played RPGs for 100s of hours, MMOs for similar times, hand helds and other games for long periods. and other  series that are so alike one another but the trill to play is addicting. I've put over 12 years into the Monster Hunter series of games. I counted my save files times before World was released form all my platforms i've put just under 18,000 hours into Mionster hunter. 

its basically the same game as the first one released.  

But I've rarely compared one game (even considering a completely different kind of game) on another to say its simply better than X game or Y game. 

I could probably hunt most monsters in a sleep induced coma about now. and going auto on alot of games in my past are probably quite high too.  

Its just I read these messages every now and then, about game being "better" than warframe for XYZ reasons, when those people have just stepped into a new game.

Destiny and destiny 2 have had alot of big mentions here, when a player has first set in on the game, thinking its fresh, and new has little quirks that are cool, .. why doesn't warframe have these things?  I should write a fourm post to give out about the quality of a game I just played against a game i've played for 6+ years. that'll show em, and get them off their asses to get some new good content out that i'll like and play for free. !

Aye. but the same answer roll in my mind.  ... .will you be as excited if you played 1000 hours of that game.  ... does those cool new features you like about your game still fee engaging after 6 years?  . .when was the last good Doom game before the most recent one?  aye.   

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On 2020-04-10 at 12:25 PM, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Well despite the fact the casuals have a whole game to go through DE hates its veterans and doesn't want to give them difficult content to sink their teeth into. Maybe if DE knew what was good for them they would have made some difficult content and kept their vets around but more and more are leaving. This comes from a former veteran by the way so I put up with alot of nerfing of difficult content in the name of the scrubs. Best to just quit the game friend, you will thank me...

if DE actually hated its vets,  they'd re release Excal Prime during a unvaulting and allow others to get his pixelated behind in our collections. 

They have their respects, and they choose them wisely. 

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On 2020-04-10 at 2:57 PM, Twistedsparkle said:

so why have I kept on playing this game for 7 years?

Sunk fallacy cost

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On 2020-04-12 at 9:48 PM, taiiat said:

they've talked about Bosses as being something challenging/difficult or w/e else you want to call it no shortage of times, and even ancillary features of Tilesets have been marketed as significant features that will matter and test Players in the past.
but ofcourse Bosses pmuch end up being mostly waiting generally, and ancillary features in the game end up being insignificant and certainly not difficult.

fun example: those Cameras in Grineer Fortress? before that Tileset was released, those Cameras were marketed as things you really gotta avoid because you'll be in big trouble if you get detected and you'll regret it.
yeah..................

So basically, that's devstream stuff that players only hear if they actually go hunting for it, rather than anything DE uses in actual warframe marketing materials designed to attract new players who don't know anything about warframe?

Because that's kind of the point: DE's external marketing doesn't focus on challenge at all. It's all Tenno going through enemies like blenders, with only bosses even giving them pause. Players who pick up warframe are by and large going to be the kind of people who want that sort of gameplay, rather than... Say, players who are attracted by a Dark Souls esque "prepare to die." 

Which means guys seeking a casual power fantasy are gonna outnumber guys seeking "challenge." Which is why DE only caters to the challenge seekers so much, and is loath to risk alienating the casual playerbase.

 

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23 minutes ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

So basically, that's devstream stuff that players only hear if they actually go hunting for it

that's like half of their entire Marketing strategy. if not more.

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I agree.  Creating a smurf account and starting over from MR0 with all MK-1 gear is refreshing.  As is... Borderlands 3.  The way the combat is actually balanced to match your gear, to make it actually possible to die and fail, is similarly refreshing.  I think DE needs to make at least some content that is balanced specifically for the "end game" player (like Gearbox does).  Something like a raid boss perhaps.  Where you actually do need the most powerful builds and items to be found in the game.

I'm fine with 99% of the content catering to noobs that don't yet even really know the game they're playing.  Just let your most loyal players have 1% of the game that's actually designed for them.

For me Eidolon hunting was such conent.  Going for a 6x3 is actually challenging and demands good builds, game knowledge, and team cooperation.  Then DE killed Eidolon hunting by completely destroying the arcane market, and I've just been logging in to increment the login counter, starting another forma, and logging back out to play another game.  But really I wish there was content for me here.

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Every time DE attempts to add difficulty to this game it goes up in flames. Did you even play the grendel missions? Pretty much everyone universally agrees those were a terrible decision. DE had to backpedal on permadeath in arbitrations because it restricted the meta too much, and still does. The only real sense of difficulty in warframe DE knows how to achieve is enemies one shoting you from across the map with no warning or indication that they were even there, and enemies you have to empty your entire ammo pool into to down, and nobody thinks this sort of difficulty is fun.

It just dosn't work with the structure of the game, and every time DE tries they fail spectacularly. So please stop throwing fuel on this fire. You said yourself this game dosn't cater to that audience, and that's FINE. DE never said this was a skill based shooter, they never said this game was suppose to be difficult or challenging. None of these promises were given and still people like you show up to complaining about this literal non-issue. Not every game needs to be difficult, or even challenging. What they need is to be fun, and challenge isn't a requirement for that.
 

What DE needs to so is stop focusing on people complaining about the game being too easy, or too difficult, and focus on making it fun. Focus on fixing the bugs that ruin the fun of the game, and stop literally removing fun from the game in an attempt to cater to one side or the other of this argument which is what always happens, like the self damage update. AOE weapons aren't "fun" anymore, and it's because of people complaining one way or the other about "difficulty". Just stop.

Please

Stop complaining about the games difficulty and start criticizing the game for it's real problems, so DE might actually focus on that for once.
The game is too damn buggy and DE's resources are too dedicated to nerfing stuff that dosn't need to be fixed I wonder why to actually fix most of it
There are too many ways other players can screw up for you
DE is getting over the moon in rng and they need to chill out on that
They need to actually finish what they start instead of putting out one or two big hotfixes for something and then leaving it to rot while they work on the next thing they're just going to abandon.
DE needs to stop knee jerk nerfing things into oblivion without putting any real thought into it (legitimate nerfs are fine, but we all know how rare those are from DE compared to the former)

These are some actual objective problems the game has. consider drawing DE's attention to some of these. and stop complaining that the game dosn't cater to you, and getting DE to drive the game into the ground attempting to do so.

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On 2020-04-13 at 3:13 PM, Necrowakker said:

if DE actually hated its vets,  they'd re release Excal Prime during a unvaulting and allow others to get his pixelated behind in our collections. 

They have their respects, and they choose them wisely. 

Actually the only reason they don't do this is because they're legally bound not to. Exclusivity was part of what you paid for with the excalibur prime access. which is why they made excalibur umbra prime for china

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So...basically an endgame that's fun, engaging, and rewarding(in that order)? We can only wish. All DE needs to do is look at how Destiny approaches their endgame raids and nightfalls.

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41 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

What they need is to be fun, and challenge isn't a requirement for that.

Challenge is a founding part of whatever game invented by humanity since they started playing with sticks and stones. It's in the basic definition of "game". What you state is fundamentally incorrect. What is different from game to game is the amount of challenge put in it by design.

And no, there is no fun without challenge. Your mind has to be stimulated to receive the sensation of fun. It's body chemistry. No challenge, no stimulation, no fun. You just stated that DE removed fun by taking self-damage out. Preventing self-damage was the challenge that was making it fun, apparently also for you. You're in contradiction with yourself because you don't even have your own structured idea of what "fun" is.

Moreover, the sensation of challenge naturally wears off when you get accustomed to that (when you repeat it hundreds times and the originality expires or when you learn by practice). That's why a progression of challenge is mandatory in order to continue with the stimulus. And a live service game like Warframe, that lives on a continuous stream of content through the years, cannot survive without such a progression.

1 hour ago, PollexMessier said:

The only real sense of difficulty in warframe DE knows how to achieve is enemies one shoting you from across the map with no warning or indication that they were even there, and enemies you have to empty your entire ammo pool into to down, and nobody thinks this sort of difficulty is fun. It just dosn't work with the structure of the game, and every time DE tries they fail spectacularly

That's why we provide feedback. We are trying to reason togheter to understand what's plain difficulty and what's challenge, and guide the developers toward the second. But if the only feedback they get is "fix bugs to make the game fun again", we are not going far.

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1 hour ago, PollexMessier said:

Every time DE attempts to add difficulty to this game it goes up in flames. Did you even play the grendel missions? Pretty much everyone universally agrees those were a terrible decision. DE had to backpedal on permadeath in arbitrations because it restricted the meta too much, and still does. The only real sense of difficulty in warframe DE knows how to achieve is enemies one shoting you from across the map with no warning or indication that they were even there, and enemies you have to empty your entire ammo pool into to down, and nobody thinks this sort of difficulty is fun. It just dosn't work with the structure of the game, and every time DE tries they fail spectacularly. So please stop throwing fuel on this fire. You said yourself this game dosn't cater to that audience, and that's FINE. DE never said this was a skill based shooter, they never said this game was suppose to be difficult or challenging. None of these promises were given and still people like you show up to complaining about this literal non-issue. Not every game needs to be difficult, or even challenging. What they need is to be fun, and challenge isn't a requirement for that.

Well what I think OP is saying(and many others) is that there needs to be endgame content that emphasizes mechanics not enemy lvl. Challenge is not permadeath or high lvls it's how the the environment interacts with the player or vice versa. Just look at any of Destiny 1/2's raids.

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Nah, man, the problem isn't the difficulty, the problem is that to make the game difficult, you have to make a lot of self restrictions, like not using mods, powers, weapons or really strong DPS frames. The game isn't skill-based. My friend started playing not so long ago and I realized by watching gameplay that a game is harder in the beginning just because you don't have good frames, weapons and mods. After you drop some credits and endo into Serration and some prime mods for shotguns, the game gets really easy. So, as I said, you can go through difficult content if you restrain yourself from using strong equipment, the problem is why would you do that if Warframe isn't a skill-based game? Moreover, even if you try so called "difficult" content, the rewards are just useless most of the time.

For me, the problem is that there is not actually challenging content that stays challenging, but also gives some meaningful rewards. And this content should be self-sustained, like even Arbitrations are easy and you don't play them anymore, after you get all the things you want. And I don't know how to solve this equation and I reckon that DE doesn't know what to do too.

They shot themselves in the foot with the mod system, because most of the time it's all about the mods. But after you get a few, you just don't have anything to do, you just go through everything like a knife through the butter.

I don't know, DE can't make a better PvP just because making good PvP means getting rid of bullet-jumping and we can't have that. That's like cornerstone mechanic of the game. But PvP would be something self-sustaining. That's exactly what people mean when they say "there is no content". There is. But it's not self-sustaining, you can breeze through it in a matter of days, hours maybe. But if they made a game mode that is fun to play and difficult and also gave out good, meaningful rewards for playing, I would totally be onboard. I just don't know what it should be.

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49 minutes ago, DebrisFlow said:

Challenge is a founding part of whatever game invented by humanity since they started playing with sticks and stones. It's in the basic definition of "game". What you state is fundamentally incorrect. What is different from game to game is the amount of challenge put in it by design.

And no, there is no fun without challenge. Your mind has to be stimulated to receive the sensation of fun. It's body chemistry. No challenge, no stimulation, no fun. You just stated that DE removed fun by taking self-damage out. Preventing self-damage was the challenge that was making it fun, apparently also for you. You're in contradiction with yourself because you don't even have your own structured idea of what "fun" is.

Challenge was maybe the wrong word to use. "Difficult" is closer to what I meant. But what I said is in no way incorrect. Riding a roller coaster isn't challenging, but its fun, uno isn't "challenging" but its fun, watching a movie can be fun, where's the challenge in that? but those are not video games. Sure, okay, lets talk about video games. Is sim's challenging? would you consider there to be any real challenge in that game? have you ever had fun in a game climbing to the highest point you could reach, just to throw yourself off it and see what happens? That's not a challenge but some of the most fun I'v had in games is doing stupid S#&$ like that, and I know I'm not the only one. plenty of sandbox games out there that are more just about manipulating or building things than having any actual challenge, yet those can be quite fun to many people. The idea that a game must provide challenge for it to be fun is fundamentally incorrect.

But there isn't exactly no challenge in this game is there? There's quite a lot, actually. It just depends on who you ask. My main argument was the game doesn't need to be more or less challenging than it already is because different people enjoy different levels of challenge. The game simply needs to be better, and complaining about challenge one way or the other has only lead to changes that have made it worse.

Also I never specifically stated the removal of self damage. I said the self damage change, which was not just the removal of self damage. what I was actually referring to was not that self damage was removed, but the knockdown mechanic it was replaced with, and other changes made as a result. specifically damage nerfs and the addition of the knockdown mechanic to weapons that did not previous have it. This ruined the fun of a lot of weapons for a lot of people, and kindof just sidestepped the whole reason people were complaining about self damage to begin with.

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1 hour ago, DebrisFlow said:

That's why we provide feedback. We are trying to reason togheter to understand what's plain difficulty and what's challenge, and guide the developers toward the second.

Just saying "the game needs to be more challenging" doesn't exactly do that tho does it?

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8 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

Riding a roller coaster isn't challenging, but its fun, uno isn't "challenging" but its fun, watching a movie can be fun, where's the challenge in that? but those are not video games. Sure, okay, lets talk about video games. Is sim's challenging? would you consider there to be any real challenge in that game? have you ever had fun in a game climbing to the highest point you could reach, just to throw yourself off it and see what happens? That's not a challenge but some of the most fun I'v had in games is doing stupid S#&$ like that, and I know I'm not the only one. plenty of sandbox games out there that are more just about manipulating or building things than having any actual challenge, yet those can be quite fun to many people. The idea that a game must provide challenge for it to be fun is fundamentally incorrect.

A challenge is whatever subverts the expectations of your mind. A rollercoaster challenges your proprioception of gravity and accelleration compared to a normal walk. A simple joke subverts your expectation of normality providing a humoristic outcome. Jumping off a cliff to see what happens subverts the expectation of normality (dying) that you constructed in your normal life. Same with all of the things you can build in a sandbox game: you are allowed to do/build things that you were not be able to do/expect before. The problem is that the subversion works a couple of times because after repetition of the same thing you get accustomed and the fun is over. You can tell me that you had fun listening to a joke or jumping off a cliff, but i will never believe you that you had fun listening to the same joke, or jumping off a cliff, or watching the very same movie, or playing the very same UNO card game (same cards, same moves, same choices) over and over and over. The idea that a game should provide challenge is the foundation for it being called a game. 

1 hour ago, PollexMessier said:

But there isn't exactly no challenge in this game is there? There's quite a lot, actually. It just depends on who you ask. My main argument was the game doesn't need to be more or less challenging than it already is because different people enjoy different levels of challenge. The game simply needs to be better, and complaining about challenge one way or the other has only lead to changes that have made it worse.

The motivation "because different people enjoy different levels of challenge" does not make sense at all with your statement "the game doesn't need to be more or less challenging than it already is". Can you reformulate?

If new challenge isn't introduced the game is only gonna cater to new players who experience the subversion for their first times, and turn away older ones. Different levels of challenges are requierd to maintain a varied population, and the game has already an overwhelming low-challenge component. Warframe right now has hundreds of things to farm, but the challenge behind them is always the same: modding correcly to wipe out everything. It's big like an ocean but shallow like a puddle.  

1 hour ago, PollexMessier said:
3 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

That's why we provide feedback. We are trying to reason togheter to understand what's plain difficulty and what's challenge, and guide the developers toward the second.

just saying "the game needs to be more challenging" doesn't exactly do that tho does it?

Discussions on the topic are being made, not here, but are being made. Defining 'difficulty' and 'challenge' and understanding the principles under which one works and the other does not is a big step forward. Read for example:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1181801-on-challenge-and-reductive-combat/?tab=comments#comment-11479298

 

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5 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Every time DE attempts to add difficulty to this game it goes up in flames.

-Wolf of Saturn Six PTSD-

Don't remind me.

I still hold that things don't need to be difficult, they just need to actually engage the playerbase past the standard "press 4 and nuke the tileset".

Make more enemies like the Nox or Bursa, which are durable but have tricks to kill them more quickly, more varied Heavy units, perhaps make heavier units take less (not no) damage from abilities to prevent them from getting nuked the same way as the cannon fodder.

We don't need level 700 enemies, we need enemies that actually need to be dealt with and not just exploded in 1-2 hits, cannon fodder is normal, but heavy gunners being cannon fodder defeats the purpose of having a different unit type.

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Il y a 5 heures, MysticWubs a dit :

Well what I think OP is saying(and many others) is that there needs to be endgame content that emphasizes mechanics not enemy lvl. Challenge is not permadeath or high lvls it's how the the environment interacts with the player or vice versa. Just look at any of Destiny 1/2's raids.

Does Warframe have any challenging mechanics though ? The game isn't designed for it, just look at the S#&$fest that was the raid. The real challege was too keep your team whole for the rest of the game without any bugs or crash or people leaving. The real question is not whereas they should do it or not (I'm with you on this one) but how they can do it in an interesting way.

 

I see many people blind raging on DE on that subject instead of actually providing meaningful answers. The elemental rework was a good step oin that regard making magnetic less useless and requiring us the tiniest moment of thinking. 

However, considering the actual state of the game I would greatly recommand DE to fix what is already here instead of creating new content. I don't care if I don't have anything new content in 6 months if it means the global experience is globally more pleasurable. 

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Players want difficulty but refuse to lose the content that makes the game insanely easy in the first place. If you guys want more difficulty in the game, you will have to let DE nerf or rework some stuff that utterly trivializes the game.

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1 hour ago, LascarCapable said:

Players want difficulty but refuse to lose the content that makes the game insanely easy in the first place. If you guys want more difficulty in the game, you will have to let DE nerf or rework some stuff that utterly trivializes the game.

I'm fully on board with that.

For those who recognize my name on the forums, it's probably because I talked about how overpowered something was. I don't advocate nerfs for something because I don't like it, the problem is when it dominates and trivializes any challenge the game might have.

I've had a few of my personal favorites nerfed in the past, one of them was the Zenistar (I'm an Ivara main). It was so strong that I could throw it out, stack on extra damage from different abilities and different sources, clear out enemies, and be far enough and fast enough ahead that other players wouldn't even see them (even had games where people would ask if the enemies were bugged and not spawning). I could shutdown chokes to the point where nothing would get through via the damage stacking mechanics. I did (pre-nerf) solo arb defense runs for 400+ waves (didn't go beyond 480; afraid of crashes) while playing the Shawzin in full view (not invisible).

Even though I was a bit upset when it happened I knew that it was indeed overpowered and needed to happen, I just thought other things would be nerfed first. To be honest I do have another favorite that is also overpower and should be nerfed that I use a lot (but actually have yet to notice anyone else use in all the years I've been playing). If that weapon gets nerfed eventually I wouldn't be surprised nor would I be angry.

 

I'd rather have engaging gameplay than have weapons so strong it just turns the game into a grind/farm quest.

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1 hour ago, LascarCapable said:

Players want difficulty but refuse to lose the content that makes the game insanely easy in the first place. If you guys want more difficulty in the game, you will have to let DE nerf or rework some stuff that utterly trivializes the game.

warning wall of text

and i believe in that concept to degrees but in the name of context the nerfs had all been poorly handled or its bcuz past topics had been blatantly ignored that it leaves the community in more of a frenzy when something like this happens. ppl had asked for multiple reworks, ppl mentioned how the scaling system is bad, the modding system needs a revamp, the damage system needs work, ehp values are too far off, enemy mechanics are badly designed, ppl went on about various combat systems and this is the ending results.

ppl asked for multiple reworks of frames, limbo as a prime example was largely asked for one but at best only got a tweak that just made him slightly less annoying to have as a teammate. multiple ppl asked to get rid of nuking as a whole in the past for kits that feel more flushed out gameplay that works good with skill yet the most problematic ones are still left untouched. this is part of the reason they need to start looking at how the roster works, the reason for each frame or itll end up like it did in scarlet spear, like sanctuary onslaught, like every mode we cheesed to this day. this is also why there had been ppl in the past that said to halt the production on newer frames for atleast a small amount of time b4 it hits harder than a truck.

the scaling system at best we just tone down armor after several years of saying how it was broken. the endless scaling system doesnt work and only making it 10x harder to make anything else work. not only that but bcuz of this system it is what encourage ppl to cheese bcuz all it rely on is beating enemies with a stat stick rather than engaging combat. it turned from nuke the map to instantly one shot or be one shot with little incentive of combat but how to fight broken with broken into a more broken mess. ppl had mentioned in the past to put a cap and make stuff initially made to scale into flat numbers suiting the design philosophy of abilities/weapons into that combat loop.

ppl had mentioned mods shouldnt try to compete with endless scaling cuz they dont and shouldnt. round flat numbers instead of percentages for the modding system has been needed for a very long time or else ppl will be double, triple, or quadruple dipping numbers. or else it again end up the same situation everytime of instead of caring about actual gameplay with mechanics we only end up caring about the biggest numbers but again it has to made into a system where enemies arent trying to endlessly scale as well. ppl said how rivens were a mistake at the very start but left this system in of large numbers simply bcuz it seemed too late to go back cuz again it wasnt though through.

the status and damage system is a bloated mess cuz ppl had gone again and again of how to make other status decent. ppl dint even care of the idea of nerfing slash as much as they hated the idea of impact and puncture being made poorly as they were way back when. if over powering them seemed an issue then thats why u rework the system for example make the status based on their damage number alone rather than like how slash is based on all the damage dealt. most status effects in my opinion should even be cut out and they should of had primary status elements looked at being refined into a simpler but better system for combat.

ppl complained about ehp values being too far off, again its more into the modding system and scaling but this was made even worse by blindly releasing stuff like adaptation. ppl dint like the idea of just playing a tank bcuz they are getting hit by stat stick beat enemies who one shot, which again is how the game designed encouraged cheesing which we hate but do it bcuz of how the game input it. tanks should have a role to play that encourages to fulfill a team or a purpose for of gameplay rather than single man survival or else it also trivializes the rest of the roster on how they work like when ppl mention only using inaros. 

ppl endlessly on this one wanted decent enemies with mechanics and functions for engaging gameplay not enemies to fight cheese with cheese again like nullies. ppl had given multiple ideas on what they can try but barely got any of them. ppl said they loved the nox and bursa bcuz they were more fun to fight but when was the last time we got anything that wasnt just invulnerability or mob fodder walking to death. create real purpose for frames to be used against them with flush, challenging, but fair mechanics that is fun not a fight fire with fire or in this case cheese with cheese.

ppl complained about the melee system, ive even seen a few ask for a improved movement system or gunplay design. everything kept releasing past all of this, the core foundation of combat either hasnt been touched or worked on only half way. ppl gave countless examples just for reference not even to copy on how to improve these carious systems but we barely got any of that moving to the next mode when its still in that state and itll continue to follow it forever until looked at.

it leaves a bad taste in the community if the idea of nerf is simply to quick fix a mistake they left for years cuz they fly rushing the next update, even leaving it too long lets some ppl get used to it too much. many nerfs isnt even for purposed design and thats why they feel more like a slap than designing a game. leaving a heavy grind, droll combat loop, and little engagement will only make nerfs look 10x worse in their place cuz it leaves the bad systems only more evident and why ppl are now saying to fix the core game. look at dog days it was simple with no cheesing and even reminded ppl of just the basics but it was fun is probly the best example that its not truly really the nerfs, its the overall design.

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On 2020-04-10 at 12:42 PM, Cpl_Facehugger said:

Warframe isn't marketed as Dark Souls in Space

 

Is... every MMO with something to DO with an endgame player's equipment 'Dark Souls in X'?

You know, when I check back on ESO (Elder Scrolls Online) every few months, they have 2 new dungeons with 6-10 new bosses between them, generally requiring some new or mixup of a known mechanic to handle, or a new Raid with even more mechanical demands. And they can all be completed on 'normal' difficulty for a more casual experience, but they also have 'veteran' mode (AND a 'hard' mode that adds extra mechanics on the last boss). All the time.

When I check back in with Warframe, there MAY be a new boss, and that new boss just might have a new mechanic... or maybe it just has an immunity phase, stopping Mr. Eidelon Lanka from completely oneshotting it. The most fun bosses in Warframe are probably Kela De Theym and the Ropalolyst, and by a long shot compared to what else is on offer.

They're both action games, albeit Warframe is a shooter. They're both games with gear and player-mechanics progression.

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On 2020-04-17 at 5:14 AM, BloodRavenCap said:

I don't know, DE can't make a better PvP just because making good PvP means getting rid of bullet-jumping and we can't have that.

Warframe had pvp long before bulletjumping though.

 

Honestly, I don't think pvp is the answer. Even in games with a lot more pvp focus like Destiny, the pvp is always just a sideshow to the main content, and I don't really think it adds much to the game unless you build the entire game around it like with tournament shooters ala Unreal Tournament or something. DE's tried several different pvp systems, all of them have rapidly failed and died becuase players broadly aren't interested in pvp content in warframe.

 

9 hours ago, KochDerFrettchen said:

Is... every MMO with something to DO with an endgame player's equipment 'Dark Souls in X'?

You know, when I check back on ESO (Elder Scrolls Online) every few months, they have 2 new dungeons with 6-10 new bosses between them, generally requiring some new or mixup of a known mechanic to handle, or a new Raid with even more mechanical demands. And they can all be completed on 'normal' difficulty for a more casual experience, but they also have 'veteran' mode (AND a 'hard' mode that adds extra mechanics on the last boss). All the time.

When I check back in with Warframe, there MAY be a new boss, and that new boss just might have a new mechanic... or maybe it just has an immunity phase, stopping Mr. Eidelon Lanka from completely oneshotting it. The most fun bosses in Warframe are probably Kela De Theym and the Ropalolyst, and by a long shot compared to what else is on offer.

They're both action games, albeit Warframe is a shooter. They're both games with gear and player-mechanics progression.

What you just described isn't really "challenge" though. New boss mechanics that switch things up are interesting and something we should absolutely have more of, but it's not really challenging content. Once you figure out any given boss or enemy's gimmick, that's it, you just have to beat that gimmick and it's done, and player skill matters almost none there.

Case in point: Exploiter orb relies on new mechanics completely unlike any other boss in warframe. You don't even use your guns on the boss, just on the adds that show up to help it. Once you understand how the mechanics work though, it's purely a matter of cache canisters, yeet at spider, win. Ambulas is another boss that has nonstandard mechanics, with you needing to down the robot, hack it, then defend it for awhile until it gets vacuumed up. Same with Raptor. Much different mechanics there. And you already mentioned Kela and Ropa. Even fairly old bosses like Alad have their own wrinkles on gameplay that make them more interesting to fight than a standard bag of hitpoints like phorid.

Trick is, none of this content is challenging to a player who knows what they're doing and has prepared their build appropriately. It's new and different, yes, but new and different isn't necessarily challenging. You talk about giving endgame players something to do with their endgame gear, but that requires enemies that can survive the endgame gear long enough to actually fight back, which gives us bulletsponge enemies that everyone complains about and considers "not challenging." Or it gives us invincibility phases, which you just called out.

Plus, the stuff they've tried to placate the people who want more challenge is universally awful, like the grendel missions, or only challenging in a metagame "the true challenge is herding your fellow tenno like cats" sense like with raids. 

Even stuff that sounds intuitively like it should result in more challenge - like "new enemy type designed to work synergistically with the other units in its faction" is often more miss than hit. See infested ancients. In theory they're supposed to challenge your target prioritization skills, but in practice the game is so fast paced and the ancients themselves are both so numerous and overtuned that they don't do the job they're supposed to.  

So honestly, I'm at the point where I want DE to throw the idea of challenging content to the wind and build for fun and spectacle first and foremost. More cool stuff like ripping huge chunks out of a giant spider the size of an office building. More riding ropalolysts like flying bulls. More launching tenno straight into enemy ships with a giant gun. Play in to the power fantasy even more. Because when DE tries to make challenging content, the content usually ends up either bad or not challenging.

 

 

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21 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

If you guys want more difficulty in the game, you will have to let DE nerf or rework some stuff that utterly trivializes the game.

Which will loop into the vicious cycle of people resorting to other options to trivialize the challenges in a slightly different option unfortunately. In other words:

Players: We want a hard challenge!

Also players: Use these items/gear so the entire thing is easy! Why bother with other stuff?

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Yeah. This is the reason I'm just lingering after 2 weeks. The 1 and only actually meaningful choice I ever made in the entire game was equipping a heat resistance mod for the Saturn junction, and I was not prepared in any shape or form to make that decision (The only reason I bring that in because my brother started to recite every single frame on my day 2, and I vaguely remembered that Amber dealt fire damage).

The only three solutions to any problem you face are:

  • Bring a bigger gun
  • Bring more health/shield/armor
  • bring someone who has a bigger gun and/or more shield/armor/health.

That is 100% of the depth of this game. 3 things. That is the most reliable way to tackle any problem you face. If you got those, then you steamroll. if you don't you die. That is how simple it is. Space ninja === juggernaut. An excel sheet simulator is not difficult.

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