Riven disposition changes based on popularity is wrong

[MPonder]

You Guys definitions about P2W are horrible, P2W can occur easily in PvE games with 0 competition (Not saying Warframe is). Imagine an endgame that there is no way to beat it without having the best of the best, and there are like just 10 people in the whole server that has this "best of the best" because it is so RARE and because of this, it is pretty phucking expensive, that only Cashers that buy and sell cashshop stuff will be able to afford it (or bid for it). Then you have a content that drop the endgame gear that most of the server can't finish, the only chance for getting the itens is to pay for carries for these few 10 players that will just become more rich. An extreme example. If you can't progress your char because it is so difficult without cashing, it is a p2w game, there is nothing to do with competition.

Cash shop selling power doesn't mean P2W if you can get the item in game pretty fast without requiring you to nolife in the game.

Edited April 12, 2020 by MPonder

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

I outdpsed 2 mesas in my ground squad an hour ago.....

It's the player not the frame.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

11 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

People like getting what they are paid for up front otherwise it's a loan/rent situation.

Once again.....people should like being informed and maybe knowing their riven can and will be changed. 

It's not a secret.....

[Dabluechimp]

15 hours ago, Highresist said:

That's the deffinition of P2W. Doing something better or faster than the others, who don't pay. If you argue that isn't the case, than every single mobile or f2p game isn't P2W either, because on paper, you can have the same progress without paying, eventually. Warframe is no exception and is a P2W in its core. It just isn't as outrageous as other titles.

umm..... in what universe? I can do just the same as someone who does pay, it may take me some more dedication, but I can get the to same content with the same power as someone who buys everything

infact I have weapons that can mow down 120 enemies easy, and I've never bought a prime access warframe
but my friend Who has bought 19 prime access and Excalibur prime founder pack has issues doing 60+ content

Money =/= power

infact its quite the opposite, cause the more you buy, the less you play, and the less you learn.

P2W means that you pay to have more power, than those who don't, not power sooner but more power than they ever will

Edited April 13, 2020 by Dabluechimp

[Fire2box]

19 hours ago, (PS4)Viveeeh said:

Disposition changes depending on popularity because with rivers, they aimed to make unpopular weapons more popular, to encourage variability. That's their sole purpose. They aren't there to make all weapons deal the same amount of damage.

yeah but when things like tiberon prime, kuva hind exist soma prime is a joke regardless of rivens. 

basing rivens on popularity isn't going to fix soma prime's lower usage and even if it did it'll take over half a year because DE only moves by like .2 at most negative or positive. DE's scared of rivens and it shows so much. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Fire2box

[Yakhul]

4 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

yeah but when things like tiberon prime, kuva hind exist soma prime is a joke regardless of rivens. 

basing rivens on popularity isn't going to fix soma prime's lower usage and even if it did it'll take over half a year because DE only moves by like .2 at most negative or positive. DE's scared of rivens and it shows so much. 

Soma actually got a buff in riven disposition, and as a gun itself, with the status changes and armor scaling fix.

The Soma or Soma Prime rifle now is a deadly rifle, almost as deadly as it was before, with a combination of Viral+ Hunter Munitions and if mod space allows it, Argon Scope. Heck, even Hammer Shot is better now if you do not have Argon Scope.

I agree that riven disposition nerf should not be done based on popularity, I guess that's why DE is separating the families of guns, so that nothing like with Tiberon Prime happens again: An old gun that no one used, with perfect riven disposition, getting primed, and the prime version having the exact same disposition, making it the Go-To gun for everything.

I'm sure there could be a better way to go about the topic, without removing the rivens. I do not believe they were a mistake, in fact, they served their original purpose very well, to bring back old forgotten weapons to life, nor i believe DE made rivens with the thought of making money, that was simply done by a part of the community wanting to milk other people for plat by promoting their so called "god" rivens for absurd amount of plat and the buyers of this rivens for supporting such practice by dumping said amounts of plat, only to then complain that the riven they "invested" in, got nerfed, sorry to say, but that is on you.

A simple change such as "keep X roll for Y amount of Kuva" would very much fix to a degree the problem of rivens, which i commonly see people complaining about how RNG they are.

[TARINunit9]

19 hours ago, Highresist said:

Oh, yeah, people who still think the game isn't P2W are delusional. It's not just rivens, it's prime access or a simple platium pruchases in order to buy the latest content on the market.

18 hours ago, Highresist said:

That's the deffinition of P2W. Doing something better or faster than the others, who don't pay. If you argue that isn't the case, than every single mobile or f2p game isn't P2W either, because on paper, you can have the same progress without paying, eventually. Warframe is no exception and is a P2W in its core. It just isn't as outrageous as other titles.

You do not buy power, you buy convenience. That is the difference between F2P and P2W. Yes, you can pay to have the gear sooner. But let me explain why Warframe does NOT cross the line:

Remember Loot Wars: Buggyfront 2? It was flat-out IMPOSSIBLE to have Darth Vader on day one. You just couldn't do it. It took a bare minimum of 65 hours, closer to 80 for most players. The only people running around with Darth Vader on day one bought him -- they paid to win

In Warframe, it is both possible and feasible to have Titania Prime on day one of Prime Access. Takes about 4 hours if you have godly luck, took me less than 10 hours over three or four days.

And on top of that, there are several grindwalls that DE deliberately does not offer a way to pay around at all. Ephemeras come to mind, you know that a real P2W game would charge like 80 bucks for those. Rivens are another, at least directly. If you could just walk up to this page and flat-out buy rivens for $16.99 a pop, you might have a point, but as it stands DE has a history of curbing their greed just as often as they expand it

Calling something P2W is a borderline criminal offense (seriously, certain countries in Europe find it illegal), not something you throw around because "zOMG this company got SLIGHTLY greedier than they used to be!" When DE promised they would never have another Hema situation again, they held true. Rivens weren't a mistake of greed, they were a mistake of flippancy

[kevoisvevo]

4 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Once again.....people should like being informed and maybe knowing their riven can and will be changed. 

It's not a secret.....

and yet DE posted those riven changes in the ass end end of this forum here and not in-game, no cephalon this time either. a regular joe playing the game, wont have any idea that their riven was getting nerfed nor its reason.

[AzureTerra]

20 hours ago, Highresist said:

Oh, yeah, people who still think the game isn't P2W are delusional. It's not just rivens, it's prime access or a simple platium pruchases in order to buy the latest content on the market.

And yet you can do everything without primes or rivens... Pay to Skip most certainly, Win nah.

 

Quote

and yet DE posted those riven changes in the ass end end of this forum here and not in-game, no cephalon this time either. a regular joe playing the game, wont have any idea that their riven was getting nerfed nor its reason

Unless you come to general discussion via a direct link to it you have to scroll past the Dev blog section at the top of the page (and therefore similarly if you go out to the main page from here its right there and easy to find), hardly the ass end of anywhere. The regular joe likely wont even notice that their purple mod went up or down a few % in any case since the changes to rivens don't suddenly break anything ~ your OP Feta weapon is still op and feta without a few percentage of that stat.

Edited April 13, 2020 by AzureTerra

[Highresist]

7 hours ago, AzureTerra said:

And yet you can do everything without primes or rivens... Pay to Skip most certainly, Win nah.

Tehcnically you could do everything with MK1 Braton, so your argument is irrelevant... Building a Warframe takes 84hours, costs resourses, slot and a potato, without including the time spend on farming the parts. Buying it through "prime access" skips all the requierments. This is the definition of P2W.

 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2020-04-12 at 1:46 AM, Highresist said:

Basically, instead of making changes to weapons based on performance, DE is doing so based on players usege, which is downright spiteful. "Oh players like using the Fulmin, because it's a good weapon with a unique mechanic? Slam that riven to the ground". It doesn't matter than the Fulmin is weaker in TTK than a lot of crit rifles, including the Bazza and Bazza Prime, Soma Prime, Tenora, Supra Vandal, Acceltra and others.

DE has no clue what balance is or how to maintain it. In a game, where Mesa can press 4 and kill an entire screen of enemies or nuke down a target 10 times faster than any weapon, including sentients, who "requier" different weapon setups in order to bypass their DR adaptation, why even bother with riven dispositions?

Yup. Basing disposition on popularity does not create "balance". 

 

And I used to be all about collecting rivens and getting the best ones but I'm just burnt out on it. 

 

They are a time investment. Whether its hours and hours grinding kuva to roll rivens over and over, or hours and hours buying and selling in trade chat, or hours at a job and then spending the money on plat. 

 

Then your riven could end up being a 1 pip dispo barely worth the mod slot if at all not even  because the weapon is OP but just because its popular? No thanks.

[Highresist]

12 hours ago, Dabluechimp said:

umm..... in what universe?

In this one.

 

12 hours ago, Dabluechimp said:

I can do just the same as someone who does pay, it may take me some more dedication, but I can get the to same content with the same power as someone who buys everything

You could do that in every single f2p p2w game, without an exception. It's not the point of being able to do it, but how much more time you need. P2W is never a question can you do it without paying, because very game has similar systems, that on paper allows you to do it, but it is locked behind outrageous gates. Warframe is no different, just because the gating is not as horrible doesn't mean it isn't there:

 

9 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Building a Warframe takes 84hours, costs resourses, slot and a potato, without including the time spend on farming the parts. Buying it through "prime access" skips all the requierments.

FFS, DE are selling premium currency, to which the entire game economy revolves around...

 

12 hours ago, Dabluechimp said:

P2W means that you pay to have more power, than those who don't, not power sooner but more power than they ever will

No it doesn't, but even if it did, your Vectis prime doesn't have the same power as someone's with CC/CD/MS/-magazine capacity riven has.

[TioMegaManX]

22 hours ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

Rivens were honestly a mistake for them to add, and need to be removed. Will it cause an uproar from the community? Absolutely, but it would be a needed and welcome change if you ask me.

I want more syndicate augments for weak weapons in a way that they become really strong weapons.

[Zebiko]

On 2020-04-12 at 3:55 AM, MPonder said:

Remember that DE don't sell power, KKKKKKKKKKKK. Directly.

Going by the number of k's you used, you are Brazilian, yes? 

[AzureTerra]

1 hour ago, Highresist said:

Tehcnically you could do everything with MK1 Braton, so your argument is irrelevant... Building a Warframe takes 84hours, costs resourses, slot and a potato, without including the time spend on farming the parts. Buying it through "prime access" skips all the requierments. This is the definition of P2W.

 

No less irrelevant that yours. Buying it skips the grind/build and if that's a Win then so what. Unless of course your nose is out of joint because someone may have skipped the grind/build and you have to suffer through it which is your choice or circumstance. There is nothing to lose except your ego (and frankly a lot of people could do with blows that more often) This isn't the type of game where having anything matters overall to other players, you can if you choose to get through the game largely without seeing another player or completely without having to play with them in a mission. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by AzureTerra

[Highresist]

Just now, AzureTerra said:

Buying it skips the grind/build and if that's a Win then so what.

So the game is pay to win.

[AzureTerra]

And what of it. It means Nothing in this type of game. You can pay your way to everything and support DE in the ways that the players who cant but still end up at the same game point.

Edited April 13, 2020 by AzureTerra

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

1 minute ago, Highresist said:

So the game is pay to win.

No, its pay to not have patience. You're not "winning" by acquiring a frame dude. Someone can build a frame and end up not even using it. Or they could rush a frame and still be a bad player that loses regardless.

[Zimzala]

So now this is just another semantic argument by rules-lawyers over the definition of P2W...

Have to hate on something or it's not a game forum, I guess...

Too funny.

[Highresist]

4 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

And what of it. It means Nothing in this type of game. You can pay your way to everything and support DE in the ways that the players who cant but still end up at the same game point.

Just because you chose to ignore it, doesn't mean it's not there. Have you ever wondered why Railjack has random rolls on gear that already have single digit % drop chance? Why the Riven system has not been fixed for years, even though it is very simple to do so? Why the build time of a character is 84hours? It all points to one thing - the game wants to sell you premium currency in order to circumvent that.
You could end up in the same power point, but you probably won't. As I said, you don't have a CC/CD/MS/-mag cap Vectis riven with a primed chamber do you?

 

4 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

No, its pay to not have patience. You're not "winning" by acquiring a frame dude. Someone can build a frame and end up not even using it. Or they could rush a frame and still be a bad player that loses regardless.

This is silly and you are still not getting it. Skipping grind/content/wait time with premium currency, directly sold to you by the developer is deffinition of a P2W, regardless of the game accessability. Warframe has much more in common with Raid Shadow Legends, in terms of character progression, than Destiny2. The Riven mod system is made to be as unaccessable as possible.

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, Highresist said:

Just because you chose to ignore it, doesn't mean it's not there. Have you ever wondered why Railjack has random rolls on gear that already have single digit % drop chance? Why the Riven system has not been fixed for years, even though it is very simple to do so? Why the build time of a character is 84hours? It all points to one thing - the game wants to sell you premium currency in order to circumvent that.
You could end up in the same power point, but you probably won't. As I said, you don't have a CC/CD/MS/-mag cap Vectis riven with a primed chamber do you?

 

This is silly and you are still not getting it. Skipping grind/content/wait time with premium currency, directly sold to you by the developer is deffinition of a P2W, regardless of the game accessability. Warframe has much more in common with Raid Shadow Legends, in terms of character progression, than Destiny2. The Riven mod system is made to be as unaccessable as possible.

You don't 'get it'...

Your intepretation of words is just as subjective as everyone elses, YOU don't get to define the subjective POV other have...

[Krankbert]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb TARINunit9:

Remember Loot Wars: Buggyfront 2? It was flat-out IMPOSSIBLE to have Darth Vader on day one. You just couldn't do it. It took a bare minimum of 65 hours, closer to 80 for most players. The only people running around with Darth Vader on day one bought him -- they paid to win

In Warframe, it is both possible and feasible to have Titania Prime on day one of Prime Access. Takes about 4 hours if you have godly luck, took me less than 10 hours over three or four days.

 

No. It's not. It's flat out IMPOSSIBLE to have Titania Prime on day one of Prime Access without spending plat. You know why. It's because warframes take over three days to build. You can't possibly not know that. This just goes to show that this whole discussion is just intellectually dishonest mincing of words in a desperate attempt to paint a game as "not Pay2Win" even though you can buy anything.

[Highresist]

1 minute ago, Zimzala said:

YOU don't get to define the subjective POV other have...

Pay to win is not a subjective point of view.

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

You don't 'get it'...

Your intepretation of words is just as subjective as everyone elses, YOU don't get to define the subjective POV other have...

We should maybe make that a rule like Godwin's - when you're arguing semantics to the point that you unironically say that someone is wrong because words don't have objective meaning and according to your subjective interpretation you're right, that means you've lost the argument.

Or in other words: Wagl dagl rugl babl. According to my subjective interpretation of its words, the previous sentence is incontrovertible proof that Warframe is Pay2Win.

 

[Zimzala]

4 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Pay to win is not a subjective point of view.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

That's just about the funniest thing I have read on  game forum, at least in the top 3.

It's is completely and totally subjective.

Show me a legal ruling and a defined legal definition that supports your assertation.