Riven disposition changes based on popularity is wrong

[ReaverKane]

On 2020-04-12 at 8:46 AM, Highresist said:

Basically, instead of making changes to weapons based on performance, DE is doing so based on players usege, which is downright spiteful. "Oh players like using the Fulmin, because it's a good weapon with a unique mechanic? Slam that riven to the ground". It doesn't matter than the Fulmin is weaker in TTK than a lot of crit rifles, including the Bazza and Bazza Prime, Soma Prime, Tenora, Supra Vandal, Acceltra and others.

DE has no clue what balance is or how to maintain it. In a game, where Mesa can press 4 and kill an entire screen of enemies or nuke down a target 10 times faster than any weapon, including sentients, who "requier" different weapon setups in order to bypass their DR adaptation, why even bother with riven dispositions?

Well... Player usage is their best metric for performance. If the weapon is bad people won't use it. If it's used a lot it means that it's performing very well, so doesn't need as strong of a riven.
With all the permutations that can be achieved with mods, arcanes and warframe interactions, it's quite inane to ask for them to change based on "performance" since it's pretty impossible to create a standard measurement of it.

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

It's a video game forum, by defninition, it's a pointless discussion., IME.

Said the troll who also pretends to only accept legal rulings as arguments in a discussion in a video game forum.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Krankbert

[UserO1]

Huh. This thread no longer has anything to do with rivens having the stat bonuses reduced if the weapon they are using becomes more widely used by the player base. Which, at the end of the day, is a good way for the developer to make sure that rivens don’t become too valuable and create too powerful of a setup. They are crowd-sourcing through player preference to find the best weapons and then making sure no single mod creates an unfair advantage that can’t be replicated unless someone is willing to pay literally hundreds of real dollars. 
 

Instead, the thread is now about Play to 2 Win and whether or not Warframe is. How about this, we agree that if you don’t like the game, you go play full price for a game you DO like, and let everyone else enjoy what they want? Many people don’t mind trading a few days of real world time for something. You know why? Because they have stuff to do outside of hhe game. If you don’t, and really are having a strong emotional reaction to waiting on a game mechanic, you have a choice: pay real money to make the mechanic go away, or find a different entertainment option. Pretty simple. 

[Zimzala]

4 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Said the troll who also pretends to only accept legal rulings as arguments in a discussion in a video game forum.

See, just zingers and insults...

Do you want to actually have a conversation or do you just want to insult other posters?

Too funny.

[Sovyul]

3 minutes ago, UserO1 said:

Instead, the thread is now about Play to 2 Win and whether or not Warframe is.

That's because none of these threads matter, be it rivens, companions, weapons, frames, abilities, none of it. That's why it always changes subject evolves into drama , because it doesn't matter, and watching Zimzala in action is quite entertaining

[Krankbert]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb UserO1:

Instead, the thread is now about Play to 2 Win and whether or not Warframe is. How about this, we agree that if you don’t like the game, you go play full price for a game you DO like, and let everyone else enjoy what they want? Many people don’t mind trading a few days of real world time for something. You know why?

For yet another example on how this is a pointless discussion based on "it can't be Pay2win because I like it", see here a guy that actually openly switches between "thinking/not thinking the game is Pay2Win" and "liking/disliking the game" mid-argument.

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

For yet another example on how this is a pointless discussion based on "it can't be Pay2win because I like it", see here a guy that actually openly switches between "thinking/not thinking the game is Pay2Win" and "liking/disliking the game" mid-argument.

Hey now!

I came back and the topic had changed, I do not change it and even asked if we could go back to Riven moaning because it's more fun.

2 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

For yet another example on how this is a pointless discussion based on "it can't be Pay2win because I like it", see here a guy that actually openly switches between "thinking/not thinking the game is Pay2Win" and "liking/disliking the game" mid-argument.

It's called a public forum discussion, it's not a formal debate...the world is full of grey, it's not black and white, many of us don't view the world in such binary terms.

[Krankbert]

Gerade eben schrieb Zimzala:

It's called a public forum discussion, it's not a formal debate...

Again: Said the guy, who would only accept a legal ruling or legal precedent as an argument.

[Zimzala]

5 minutes ago, Sovyul said:

That's because none of these threads matter, be it rivens, companions, weapons, frames, abilities, none of it. That's why it always changes subject evolves into drama , because it doesn't matter, and watching Zimzala in action is quite entertaining

Hey now!

I came back and the topic had changed, I do not change it and even asked if we could go back to Riven moaning because it's more fun.

2 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

For yet another example on how this is a pointless discussion based on "it can't be Pay2win because I like it", see here a guy that actually openly switches between "thinking/not thinking the game is Pay2Win" and "liking/disliking the game" mid-argument.

It's called a public forum discussion, it's not a formal debate...the world is full of grey, it's not black and white, many of us don't view the world in such binary terms.

[AzureTerra]

5 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

some pointless rambling was here

If you cant use a Amprex, its not a better weapon, if you can use one but prefer the Braton its still not a better weapon for that player.

I am all for Pay to "Your choice of word here". Pay to Win is bad in games where premium players have an actual advantage over non premium, Warframe is not one of those games. Paying to Skip a grind affects no-one but the person who is doing it. I'm glad you find it pointless, i am also surprised that if it was so pointless then why you stayed part of it for as long as you did.

I would suppose in a sense i do play a couple P2W games but they are very much PVP centric where having the Premium Unit does sometimes give you an advantage over the non premiums and even then some of the most Premium Units mean little if you don't use them well so it comes back to that skill that your adverse to.

[Zimzala]

Just now, Krankbert said:

Again: Said the guy, who would only accept a legal ruling or legal precedent as an argument.

You conflagorate things in your mind, that is not what I was trying to convey.

When we are discussing subjective things and people want them to have strict meanings, there has to be a dis-interested 'authority' to make such a decision.

IME, no such thing exists around the definition of P2W, therfore, it is a subjective dicussion and nothing more.

If someone wants to profess the idea that there is only one definition, then it's on them to 'prove' that, which simply cannot be done, as there is not authority that has decided.

The whole point is to discuss, where I think for some the point is to make the other party change thier minds...

[Krankbert]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

You conflagorate things in your mind, that is not what I was trying to convey.

When we are discussing subjective things and people want them to have strict meanings, there has to be a dis-interested 'authority' to make such a decision.

IME, no such thing exists around the definition of P2W, therfore, it is a subjective dicussion and nothing more.

If someone wants to profess the idea that there is only one definition, then it's on them to 'prove' that, which simply cannot be done, as there is not authority that has decided.

The whole point is to discuss, where I think for some the point is to make the other party change thier minds...

If you truly honestly thought that way, we wouldn't be having this conversation because I don't believe for a second that anyone would be interested in having discussions and conversations about any topic while holding the honest belief that words can mean whatever you want.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Krankbert

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

If you truly honestly thought that way, we wouldn't be having this conversation because I don't believe for a second that anyone would be interested in having discussions and conversations about any topic while holding the honest belief that words can mean whatever you want.

Again, you run to an extreme, IMO.

The Riven topic and the P2W topic are both subjective.

That does not mean 'wrods mean whatever you want', it just means these topics do not have specific answers and definitions that everyone agrees on completely.

It's a discussion with multiple points of view - that is not chaos, unless you make it so.

The definition and subsequent discussion on what words mean is a huge part of the human existance IME.

Language is not math or physics.

You can believe whatever suits you and makes you happy, from my POV, but that does not mean 'wrods mean whatever you want'.

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

That does not mean 'wrods mean whatever you want', it just means these topics do not have specific answers and definitions that everyone agrees on completely.

It's a discussion with multiple points of view - that is not chaos, unless you make it so.

The definition and subsequent discussion on what words mean is a huge part of the human existance IME.

Language is not math or physics.

You can believe whatever suits you and makes you happy, from my POV, but that does not mean 'wrods mean whatever you want'.

Why were you complaining when I called you a troll? You don't know what I meant. It's subjective, it could have meant anything. The fact of the matter is that you have implicitly accepted every single word that anyone here has used, except for one. You don't object to the definition of a single term because of an honest good-faith belief that all definitions are subjective.

If you weren't trolling, then the reason is the same as for all the other asinine statements here.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Krankbert

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

Why were you complaining when I called you a troll? You don't know what I meant. It's subjective, it could have meant anything. The fact of the matter is that you have implicitly accepted every single word that anyone here has used, except for one. You don't object to the definition of a single term because of an honest good-faith belief that all definitions are subjective.

I aksed a question - "How am I a troll?" and gave a responce to indicate it was not my intent...

That's how coversations and communication work - if you don't understand what someone is conveying, you ask for clarification and give more data.

[Krankbert]

Gerade eben schrieb Zimzala:

I aksed a question - "How am I a troll?" and gave a responce to indicate it was not my intent...

That's how coversations and communication work - if you don't understand what someone is conveying, you ask for clarification and give more data.

Someone who isn't a troll would have responded to the argument made, not the clearly rhetorical question.

[Darklord_Tou]

Personally i think Rivens were the start of downfall for DE.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Highresist said:

This is silly and you are still not getting it. Skipping grind/content/wait time with premium currency, directly sold to you by the developer is deffinition of a P2W, regardless of the game accessability. 

Only if you are being as broad as possible regardless of context. Only if you label any and all microtransactions "P2W" regardless of what you need to win and what you actually pay for

You can't actually win in Warframe by shelling out cash. You buy convenience, not power. To some people this doesn't matter, because they take one look at the game -- the game that was free to play, the game that didn't cost 65 USD just to download like it's competitors did -- asking them for money for an XP booster and they will instantly file that as P2W on principle. And I don't blame those people for having such strict principles, because this industry has burned them one too many times before.

But in this game I don't agree with them. You can't buy your way past the Trinity in the Ceres Junction. You can't buy your way to instantly winning Sorties. You can't buy your way to top level in Conclave. And you most certainly don't buy loot boxes that contain mandatory progression-based stat-boosting items. Every single person on the leaderboards earned their way there; they might have bought something, they probably bought something, but buying something does not detract from what they earned

And that is why I am also tagging you, Mr. Bert:

2 hours ago, Krankbert said:

This just goes to show that this whole discussion is just intellectually dishonest mincing of words in a desperate attempt to paint a game as "not Pay2Win" even though you can buy anything.

Because sometimes the context IS the difference, not an excuse for white knights to make up a difference

[Zimzala]

8 minutes ago, Darklord_Tou said:

Personally i think Rivens were the start of downfall for DE.

I still think it's one of the coolest, most unique things in the game, a very interesting way to make item changes over time.

[Zimzala]

12 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Someone who isn't a troll would have responded to the argument made, not the clearly rhetorical question.

I thought I had also responded to the substance of your arguments, I apologize if I missed a bit.

Obviously, the missive was not as clear as you thought, thus my question.

[Krankbert]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb TARINunit9:

But in this game I don't agree with them. You can't buy your way past the Trinity in the Ceres Junction. You can't buy your way to instantly winning Sorties. 

You're talking about these things as if they were hard and stayed hard no matter how well equipped you are. The fact is that they are only hard if you lack the gear to make them trivial. With the right gear, these things are as easy as any level 3 Earth node, and that gear you can absolutely buy.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Krankbert

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

I thought I had also responded to the substance of your arguments, I apologize if I missed a bit.

Obviously, the missive was not as clear as you thought, thus my question.

I reread your post and I don't see how you could possibly have believed that you responded to anything other than literally responding to the rhetorical question that was the very first sentence.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Krankbert

[Zimzala]

2 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

I reread your post and I don't see how you could possibly have believed that you responded to anything other than literally responding to the rhetorical question that was the very first sentence.

OK..so now we are pouring over posts to determine blame and 'who is right', again...

You are RIght.

Is that what you need to hear to move on with your life?

[Omega]

There is a lack of transparency behind riven disposition changes and player usage statistics. If there was a resource that players can see the numbers that would be more helpful

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, MPonder said:

You Guys definitions about P2W are horrible, P2W can occur easily in PvE games with 0 competition (Not saying Warframe is). Imagine an endgame that there is no way to beat it without having the best of the best, and there are like just 10 people in the whole server that has this "best of the best" because it is so RARE and because of this, it is pretty phucking expensive, that only Cashers that buy and sell cashshop stuff will be able to afford it (or bid for it). Then you have a content that drop the endgame gear that most of the server can't finish, the only chance for getting the itens is to pay for carries for these few 10 players that will just become more rich. An extreme example. If you can't progress your char because it is so difficult without cashing, it is a p2w game, there is nothing to do with competition.

Cash shop selling power doesn't mean P2W if you can get the item in game pretty fast without requiring you to nolife in the game.

No, no, that would be something completely different but would have nothing to do with P2W. In your example it is available elsewhere but is rare, that directly excludes it from P2W (unless it was a PvP game) since P2W is based fully on cash-shop exclusiveness or when something in a PvP game gains someone a massive advantage by paying real cash, like getting items that guarantee equipment upgrades while others rely on minimal percent chances and possibly the risk of breaking items or being able to buy a +13 item straight up for cash. And in something like Black Desert you also have maids that are straight P2W since the more of them you own, the less often you need to leave your grind spots to dump off loot, which means a massive increase of xp/hour in a game that is PvP heavy and where level difference between players has massive impact on damage output and TTL. Even pets and costumes fall under P2W in BDO since they also improve your efficiency or straight up improve xp gained. All of those options are nearly impossible to gain for free in the game. Now if BDO was PvE only, then it wouldnt matter S#&$ since it would be QoL items only and not tied directly to power.

What you describe is just an incentive to make purchases in an otherwise likely free game.

If the items you describe are exclusive to a cash shop and needed to go and do that specific content, then you are simply describing a B2P game done in a different way, where you buy access to those parts of the game you want instead of buying a full game or an expansion where you wont do everything anyways. Nothing more than selective B2P. By your definition Destiny 2 is full blown P2W.