Riven disposition changes based on popularity is wrong

[Aldain]

Love ya Novus!

On-topic: There is one thing not being talked about here that I just remembered.

Why are these weapons (usually) popular in the first place? Because even if Riven mods weren't a thing they would still be so powerful that they trivialize other weapons.

Adding in the power scaling of these rivens the weapons go from "obtusely powerful" to "an enemy needs 5000k armor just to not die in one hit".

They aren't being nerfed exclusively because of popularity, they are being nerfed because their power creates problems on the content design front and leaving it that way would just cause people to flock to the weapon creating this loop of "Only X weapon is worth using".

[Zimzala]

13 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Love ya Novus!

On-topic: There is one thing not being talked about here that I just remembered.

Why are these weapons (usually) popular in the first place? Because even if Riven mods weren't a thing they would still be so powerful that they trivialize other weapons.

Adding in the power scaling of these rivens the weapons go from "obtusely powerful" to "an enemy needs 5000k armor just to not die in one hit".

They aren't being nerfed exclusively because of popularity, they are being nerfed because their power creates problems on the content design front and leaving it that way would just cause people to flock to the weapon creating this loop of "Only X weapon is worth using".

IMO, they are not being nerfed, the system is just doing it's thing.

It's outlook.

IME, many gamers just don't like RNG and changes - Rivens are seeped in both, so some gamers will hate them, but that does not mean anything is wrong, IMO, it just means some gamers don't like the system.

As you point out the changes won't prevent the weapons from doing what they do, so content gets cleared and Rivens are not mandatory for doing it.

That leaves Rivens to be flavor, which they are in spades.

Plenty of room for tweaking exists, but it's a system, it's not 'DE nerfing things' from my POV.

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

IMO, they are not being nerfed, the system is just doing it's thing.

I know that and you know that, and DE stated Riven dispos would change from day one.

But somehow after all these years people STILL ignore that memo, spend hundreds of dollars worth of plat on the new meta rivens and lose their minds every time the changes come up.

Which honestly is good for popcorn sales at the very least.

[Zimzala]

4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I know that and you know that, and DE stated Riven dispos would change from day one.

But somehow after all these years people STILL ignore that memo, spend hundreds of dollars worth of plat on the new meta rivens and lose their minds every time the changes come up.

Which honestly is good for popcorn sales at the very least.

Yup, agreeing with ya.

The whole point is for poeple to see the system and not nerfs, but since people throw 'real' money at them, any logic leaves and emotion takes control, IME.

Gamers want to take control of this game when they cannot even control thier own impulses...

I do love popcorn, pass the salt!

[AzureTerra]

This took off it seems when i wandered off.

I do get a lot of satisfaction at the salt threads that come up every time there is a change looming/happened. Never paid over 1000 plat (indeed the two most expensive rivens i have ever owned were 800ish and i turned them into endo when i lost interest in the weapons they were for) for a riven and i can only think of one weapon that was adversely affect in my use of it by a riven change and that was -100% recoil Pandero riven, it for a while had some slight kick to it. 

Most often the thing that seems to drive the purple mods the excesses that people are apparently willing to pay is Crit, the greater sum of the player-base it seems is mad with lust for crit on everything even if its a historically Status weapon (or weapon family). I have a riven that has made it so the weapon cannot crit, it doesn't need to crit between the status and the raw damage it does, its on the Nami solo a weapon that actually took a long time to find a riven for because its not meta and thus not popular and hard to find and thus dirt cheap. I don't use it all that often but damn its good when i do (mostly as part of a Pirate themed loadout with the Zarr, Twin Rogga and Hydroid).

Just looking at the difference between my Aksomati and the primes on my riven, its still amazing, sure i went from 99.8% crit chance to 92.4 but with the RoF of them you don't notice that a shot doesn't crit occasionally, heck i remember back when before rivens and i was happy with a 50% CC on them. Its going to be a long road to get the new guns to the same level of usage as the old ones and its a good chance to have them built differently as i had kinda hard locked the original one to corrosive.

 

[sitfesz]

We have limited access to rivens and rerolling costs specific resource which can only be obtained by a few sources.
When people roll/buy a good riven, they feel "finally" it is done and doesn't need further work.

Nerfs give the feeling that these rivens will keep getting nerfed until they are just "okay" mods, then people have to start this process over with another weapon. No one wants to give up what they obtained if that isn't an upgrade. Of course people feel it is as personal, because they worked for it or payed for it.

These nerfs were mostly 0,1-0,2 dispositions, while the buffs were mostly 0,05. I don't see the balance in it and I don't trust the balancing of DE either. It's not giving back what it's taking, especially for people who have their complete loadouts nerfed.

This system emotionally hurts players as it gives hope and sets expectations, then destroys it. People don't want to try other weapons with actually high riven disposition, because first you have to buy or roll multiple layers of RNG and farm more to even try that weapon with a riven. They don't want to try those weapons, because as the high riven disposition suggests, it probably/for real sucks and can be bad even with a riven, which adds one more gamble to this system. A gamble that takes time and resources. THIS is what makes it feel personal if someone wins the riven lotto, then DE takes it away bit by bit.

If only the data used for "balancing" rivens were public. Anything more transparent, maybe it would be easier for people to justify these changes.

Edited April 13, 2020 by sitfesz

[Fire2box]

On 2020-04-12 at 8:40 PM, Yakhul said:

Soma actually got a buff in riven disposition, and as a gun itself, with the status changes and armor scaling fix.

The Soma or Soma Prime rifle now is a deadly rifle, almost as deadly as it was before, with a combination of Viral+ Hunter Munitions and if mod space allows it, Argon Scope. Heck, even Hammer Shot is better now if you do not have Argon Scope.

I highly doubt even it will bring it in line with tiberon prime or kuva hind if the later two didn't have rivens on them. soma prime still has a base status chance of 10% 

soma prime is still good, the point I'm making is it'll never be as good as new weapons. IE: rivens their balancing, the entire intention behind them isn't happening. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Fire2box

[Highresist]

20 hours ago, ReaverKane said:

Player usage is their best metric for performance.

The Fulmin is in fact worse than the Baza prime, yet it has 1/5 disposition compared to 3/5. Player usage is certainly not the best metric for performance.

20 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

You buy convenience, not power.

🤨 every single prime weapon or warframe, without exceptions is more powerful than a none prime one. You absolutely buy power.

[MPonder]

Warframe does sell power, lol.

-What you use to make your Weapons and Warframes stronger? Formas/Potatoes, can't you buy that in the shop?

-What is the currency used for trading? PL, can you buy PL?

-Some Warframes are stronger than others, some are better than others for a specific mission, can you buy them? Same for weapons, can you buy them? Yep, directly and indirectly with $ -> PL -> Trade.

-----------------

Warframe has 3 big lies.

1- Warframe is a coop game -> It is not, cause there is no coop content.

2- DE don't sell power -> They do.

3- Community is nice -> They aren't. it seems that way because there is no coop, a little coop and you see how things are.

 

[TARINunit9]

39 minutes ago, Highresist said:

🤨 every single prime weapon or warframe, without exceptions is more powerful than a none prime one. You absolutely buy power.

If you could ONLY get the Prime weapons through Prime Access, you're buying power. This would be your Premium Ammo in older versions of World of Tanks -- you could literally never get this ammo as a F2P

But you're not buying to have Prime weapons at all, you're paying to have them sooner, and with the Catalysts pre-installed (and need I remind you, Nora Night sells them too). That's buying CONVENIENCE, not power.

@MPonderThis goes for you too

 

Now you might be asking "Why would you bother White-Knighting for DE over this tiny distinction?" Because when DE says you can grind for them, they're one of the few companies that actually mean it. They're not asking you to spend $1,000 like a "whale", they market to the "minnows". They want to tempt you out of ten bucks, not two hundred

Edited April 14, 2020 by TARINunit9

[(XBOX)Dex Xean]

stop thinking of rivens as something to make already a overpowered weapon even more overpowered then you will see whatever they nerf does not matter cuz you gonna use those weapons with or without rivens so the disposition changes will not effect you or anger you so much.

Also do not pigeonhole yourself into one setup over time you gain so many weapons to use if you stay in this game longer than 2 months while actually playing. Too many ppl get a weapon and go damn this weapon is strong or overpowered then get a riven and assume that it'll never be touched but if you think about it if those weapons are Overpowered enough or somewhat usable to murder enemies other people will notice sooner or later depending on how good it is at murdering and the ease at which it does kill. 

stop your addiction and fixations on rivens and see them as side content then get over it and your time in warframe will be much smoother without such a large obsession over power creep in a game that is pretty easy once you get the main things down anyway.

Edited April 14, 2020 by (XB1)Dex Xean

[MPonder]

Having power sooner

[Highresist]

7 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

But you're not buying to have Prime weapons at all, you're paying to have them sooner

It's the same thing!!! Prime gear is locked behind RNG relic system on top of resourse costs on top of build time on top of vaulting mechanic. Saying you are not buying power through prime access is asinine!

 

7 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

They're not asking you to spend $1,000 like a "whale", they market to the "minnows".

Dude........... There are rivens worth 1000$ that you CAN'T get them through grind, because the system is made deliberetly to be counterproductive!

Edited April 14, 2020 by Highresist

[Aldain]

10 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

They're not asking you to spend $1,000 like a "whale"

...Oh god I just imagined Warframe with a Gacha system and my eyes melted.

[TARINunit9]

Just now, Highresist said:

It's the same thing!!!

Not to people who actually have a profession in this stuff

The distinction might mean nothing to you because "lol the devs just want my money what's the real difference", but to the workers in the trenches it's the difference between a product where you actually respect your customers and... well, this guy's personal nightmare

[TARINunit9]

7 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Having power sooner

You say that sarcastically like it's a joke, but it really is the subtle difference between a good product and a bad one

[.Unforgotten.]

How about this as an option, where both Non-Riven users and Riven users can finally have peace and DE can stop the Ban/Nerf Hammer as well?

[Highresist]

8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

...Oh god I just imagined Warframe with a Gacha system and my eyes melted.

It's called Riven disposition. You spend plat worth 500$ only for the item to lose its value two weeks later. Now if you want the same power level, you need to spend another 500$ or play the casino wheel known as Kuva rolls, where you can get between 2 and 4 randomly generated stats out of 1000. Good luck, lol!

Edited April 14, 2020 by Highresist

[MPonder]

6 minutes ago, .Unforgotten. said:

How about this as an option, where both Non-Riven users and Riven users can finally have peace and DE can stop the Ban/Nerf Hammer as well?

I'd be fine with that, even with 0.95 dispo.

And they could fix other weapons maybe? How about come to the forums and ask "Hey, why you guys use Rubico so much", then we can come with stuff like:

- Because Lanka is horrible to use and it is bugged for eidolon hunt since probably Thumpers were introduced.

- Causa Vulkar Wraith has 3 sec reload and a trash fire rate, dependent of rivens too.

- Vectis is OK to use actually, rivens are still kind necessary for it though. the rest is kind  trash cause of Fire rate/base damage/reload is bad and maybe need rivens to not be dependent of Other Warframe buffs.

Edited April 14, 2020 by MPonder

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Highresist said:

You spend plat worth 500$ only for the item to lose its value two weeks later.

You might, I on the other hand sit back and laugh at people with poor impulse control who get instant buyers remorse despite the oft broadcasted fact that DE has and will continue to make changes to the dispos over time.

Also you can technically get any Riven in in the game without spending one red cent, it just takes time and Kuva instead of money, which again, is poor impulse control.

[Highresist]

6 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Also you can technically get any Riven in in the game without spending one red cent, it just takes time and Kuva instead of money, which again, is poor impulse control.

You could have any hero in Raid Shadow Legends as well, without paying for, or have every card in Heartstone, or f it, every skin in League of Legends. It may just take you 3-4 lifetimes. Who cares about time, right? If the free users could eventually get to the point of a payed user, even if that point comes 50 years later, it's not P2W, right? You are just paying to skip time, right? Such idiotic argument...
Going back to the CC/CD/MS/-mag cap Vectis riven. Please enlighten me when will I be able to get it without the need to spend 99999 plat on it?

Edited April 14, 2020 by Highresist

[Aldain]

And yet Rivens all have less impact that everything on that list (except LoL skins which are useless).

I'd believe this were P2W or Gacha levels of stupid if entire weapons and Warframes were 100% plat only, but they aren't.

It isn't my concern that players place $500 of value on a series of zeros and ones that make an already easy game easier or make already big numbers bigger.

Not to mention the only people driving those prices up are the players, players hype up Rivens, sell them for THOUSANDS OF TIMES their worth, parade the worth around like they just bought a new Sports Car and use it to claim superiority over others.

So you'll have to forgive my complete lack of sympathy for self-inflicted buyers remorse.

[Highresist]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

Not to mention the only people driving those prices up are the players, players hype up Rivens, sell them for THOUSANDS OF TIMES their worth, parade the worth around like they just bought a new Sports Car and use it to claim superiority over others.

Oh, you are one of those players, who think refining builds is worthless, gotcha.

[Aldain]

Just now, Highresist said:

Oh, you are one of those players, who think refining builds is worthless, gotcha.

-shrug- Maybe I'm just old fashioned in that regard, I never saw a point in dealing 300,000 damage to something that only needs around 5,000 to kill in any game.

But that still doesn't change the fact that the only reason that Rivens are expensive in the first place are because people buy them at those obtuse prices, if people didn't buy rivens for 500-1000+ plat then the prices would be significantly lower.

[Highresist]

4 hours ago, Aldain said:

-shrug- Maybe I'm just old fashioned in that regard, I never saw a point in dealing 300,000 damage to something that only needs around 5,000 to kill in any game.

But that still doesn't change the fact that the only reason that Rivens are expensive in the first place are because people buy them at those obtuse prices, if people didn't buy rivens for 500-1000+ plat then the prices would be significantly lower.

Well, that's market driven economy. When there is a short supply and a high demand the prices go through the roof. The reason why there is a short supply, though is strictly on DE's shoulders and not the players. When you introduce power in any game, it is natural for your players to want to have it. From there on DE are using that carrot for the basis of a "gotcha" system where they focus weapon's popularity instead of performance and make changes in order to dirve up more player spendings. This may not be the case though.