I realized they basically did to shotguns what they did to beam weapons

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Before they got buffed beam weapons Status was “status per second”, and to put it simply it didn’t work, was awful and made 99% of beam weapons useless.

Now we have the shotgun nerf with status per projectile, and that makes status on shotguns work poorly, be awful, and makes 99% of shotguns useless.

DE, please stop trying to be clever with how status on weapons are done and just make them good.

[Drachnyn]

IIRC the beam status per second was done because the game couldnt handle that level of status effect output. So less design choice and more spaghetti code.

[rapt0rman]

They 100% fixed the way status shotguns work, the way they work now is how they should have worked since the beginning. The fact that the roughly 3x status compensation given to most shotguns hasn't been enough is a separate issue.

Edited April 12, 2020 by rapt0rman

[Savire510]

The whole point of these changes was to erase that galactic size power gap between a status shotgun with 99.99%status and the one with 100% status.

And these changes basicaly just erased that 100% point for a lot of shotguns and buffed normal status per projectile. Idunno if thats the right way, i still want shotguns that proc 50 statuses per one shot.

shotgun status should work like normal rifle status, but with "before revised" stat changes, so Tigris prime with 30% status but that status is 30% for every single projectile, boom, done.

there is no power gap between 99% and 100% and even 50% status would be respectable

Edited April 12, 2020 by Savire510

[Tyreaus]

The main problem is that they didn't stretch things out better. Old shotgun stats had a gap from 99% to 100% post-modding. The way they calculate things now opens up that possibility, so that's a big plus. But instead of, say, bumping Tigris Prime up so it can still reach 100% status, they just moved everything up by the same 3x modifier. Not every gun lost or gained by the same amount, though, so to give them all the same treatment is off.

TL;DR: They should look at shotguns individually and alter their status chances appropriately, not do a blanket 3x increase. Take better advantage of the change.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, rapt0rman said:

They 100% fixed the way status shotguns work, the way they work now is how they should have worked since the beginning. The fact that the roughly 3x status compensation given to most shotguns hasn't been enough is a separate issue.

I’d argue it’s the same issue, as shotguns didn’t need to have their main appeal removed just to fix an issue with it. And I’d honestly rather take the old shotgun status back as it would at least make status on shotguns useable.

I’m still waiting to find out how multi procs were supposed to compensate for this. I mean my 100% status tigris prime build now has it sitting at where it’s old base status chance was. How tf are status changes supposed to fix guns that can’t reliably proc status anymore?

Edited April 12, 2020 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[rapt0rman]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’d argue it’s the same issue, as shotguns didn’t need to have their main appeal removed just to fix an issue with it.

I’m still waiting to find out how multi procs were supposed to compensate for this.

Literally the only problem is that they were too stingy with the compensating buffs. They can still make any number of changes needed to rebalance shotguns with the new calculations, and none of it will take away from the fact that the new calculations are entirely more sensible then the old ones.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

9 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

Literally the only problem is that they were too stingy with the compensating buffs. They can still make any number of changes needed to rebalance shotguns with the new calculations, and none of it will take away from the fact that the new calculations are entirely more sensible then the old ones.

I mean, I also see no reason why they couldn’t have designed it where I’d say tigris prime still had 30% status. Then each pellet has 30%. And if you throw a Status mod on and the status chance increases to 55%. Then the status per pellet is now 55%.

The fact that status per pellet is lower than the weapons actual status chance is insane to me and honestly comes off as more broken than being stuck at 33% until you have 100% status.

[Teridax68]

10 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

Literally the only problem is that they were too stingy with the compensating buffs. They can still make any number of changes needed to rebalance shotguns with the new calculations, and none of it will take away from the fact that the new calculations are entirely more sensible then the old ones.

This 100%. The old formula for status on shotguns was broken and everyone who knew the formula acknowledged it as such. Not only that, but the old formula was itself far more binary than the current one, as the difference between 99% and 100% status on a shotgun was so immense that certain weapons like the Kohm could go from awful to god-tier with the right Riven. The new formula, on the other hand, makes for much a much smoother status curve, so it is not the design of the new status formula that is an issue, but the compensatory balancing of shotguns, which caused certain status shotguns like the Tigris Prime to suffer heavily.

[rapt0rman]

3 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I mean, I also see no reason why they couldn’t have designed it where I’d say tigris prime still had 30% status. Then each pellet has 30%. And if you throw a Status mod on and the status chance increases to 55%. Then the status per pellet is now 55%.

The fact that status per pellet is lower than the weapons actual status chance is insane to me and honestly comes off as more broken than being stuck at 33% until you have 100% status.

Noone has disagreed that the status chance given in compensation wasn't enough, or rather that's specifically what everyone in the thread has said.

[Andele3025]

14 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

They 100% fixed the way status shotguns work, the way they work now is how they should have worked since the beginning. The fact that the roughly 3x status compensation given to most shotguns hasn't been enough is a separate issue.

No they didnt, because DE didnt convert what prior per pellet status chance was of a 3x multiplied per shot probability to new per pellet status chance but instead nerfed per shot probability by pellet count (and it is a nerf since thats not how probability works, e.g. tigris prime has 11 instead of the 25% it should have had assuming you recalc 8 pellets for a total of 0.9/90% chance per shot) AND didnt convert shotgun status chance mods to buff total status by the values (essentially most status chance mod actually give 3-10% less actual status chance compared to before), resulting in a raw nerf of status to all high pellet stauts shotties, the kohm nerfing itself as it spools up and that non-status and hybrid shotties are better at status than guns that were balanced/weaker in other areas to be good at status.

Hell for most shotguns it would have been better if they just took 2/3 of prior per shot status and made it the per pellet status chance (or converted 1:1 since for shotguns multishot is closer to fire rate and inverse and its not like no high status high fire rate guns exist. In fact more high fire rate rifles are status than crit (Acceltra, Synapse, Baza, Soma), with a few hybrids including the maxxed out Grakata (that right now on no status chance has better output than most full status shotty builds).

Edited April 13, 2020 by Andele3025

[rapt0rman]

20 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

No they didnt, because DE didnt convert what prior per pellet status chance was of a 3x multiplied per shot probability to new per pellet status chance but instead nerfed per shot probability by pellet count (and it is a nerf since thats not how probability works), resulting in a raw nerf of status to all high pellet stauts shotties, the kohm nerfing itself as it spools up and that non-status and hybrid shotties are better at status than guns that were balanced/weaker in other areas to be good at status.

Yes they did, because the math makes sense now, which was the point of the change.

The new base status numbers given in compensation DO NOT inherently mean that the new formula is worse than the old one (seriously, this is basic causality/causation). it just means that the new base status numbers need to be buffed more.

Edited April 13, 2020 by rapt0rman

[Andele3025]

7 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

Yes they did, because the math makes sense now, which was the point of the change.

The new base status numbers given in compensation DO NOT inherently mean that the new formula is worse than the old one. it just means that the new base status numbers need to be buffed more.

It made sense before too, it was just shafting hybrid builds, right now it doesnt because status chance mods dont give the actual status chance they should since the conversion was #*!%ed up. As long as the conversion is #*!%ed up, the "new formula" (which isnt a new formula really, its a stat filter and change from measuring 1 status as 1/the cap to counting 1 status as probably 0.1 or 0.01, as proven by the fact that the kohm nerfs itself as it spools up which means the game actively filters old stats instead of calcing off a table base as spool of the kohm is modded multishot thus shouldnt be reducing/further dividing status chance just as it didnt before).

[nslay]

It made perfect sense before from a probability theory standpoint. It only makes sense now if DE is balancing around the average number of pellets proccing.

[rapt0rman]

24 minutes ago, nslay said:

It made perfect sense before from a probability theory standpoint. It only makes sense now if DE is balancing around the average number of pellets proccing.

I won't say that the math itself didn't make sense before, but it definitely didn't make sense to use that formula in the first place.

Even ignoring the functionally unusable probability curve, the probability of a single pellet proccing was just... useless information for the purposes of using a shotgun for status.

[nslay]

7 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

I won't say that the math itself didn't make sense before, but it definitely didn't make sense to use that formula in the first place.

Even ignoring the functionally unusable probability curve, the probability of a single pellet proccing was just... useless information for the purposes of using a shotgun for status.

The weird formula follows from the the interpretation of status chance being the probability that at least one pellet procs status chance. But I assure you, the shape of the curve and unusual radical follow very naturally from probability theory. The problem setup is the source of any weirdness you perceive.

EDIT: Or wait... are you talking about the 3x mess up formula? I can give you a couple perspectives about it being a mistake to a new mechanism of balance.

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by nslay

[rapt0rman]

Just now, nslay said:

The weird formula follows from the the interpretation of status chance being the probability that at least one pellet procs status chance. But I assure you, the shape of the curve and unusual radical follow very naturally from probability theory. The problem setup is the source of any weirdness you perceive.

 

Right and I'm saying that's why it was a bad formula to use from a gameplay perspective.

The world is full of beautiful and unique formulas, and not all of them are suited to be used as game math 😛

[Teridax68]

12 minutes ago, nslay said:

The weird formula follows from the the interpretation of status chance being the probability that at least one pellet procs status chance. But I assure you, the shape of the curve and unusual radical follow very naturally from probability theory. The problem setup is the source of any weirdness you perceive.

EDIT: Or wait... are you talking about the 3x mess up formula? I can give you a couple perspectives about it being a mistake to a new mechanism of balance.

I'm struggling to see how any of this justifies using the old formula for status on shotguns.

[rapt0rman]

15 minutes ago, nslay said:

EDIT: Or wait... are you talking about the 3x mess up formula? I can give you a couple perspectives about it being a mistake to a new mechanism of balance.

I'm talking about the old shotgun status formula itself. It had a "functionally unusable probability curve" because it's function was to be used by players, who were unable to access the 99-99.9999999999999999999999% that contained the entire rest of the status spectrum.

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm struggling to see how any of this justifies using the old formula for status on shotguns.

If you start with defining status chance to be "per-shot" for shotguns, then the math leads you to the old formula. There's no hacks, engineering or trickery... just probability theory. You apparently don't like the "per-shot" interpretation, but that doesn't make it wrong, justified, etc... DE chose that interpretation and that's where it lead.

While I like the new system, I will say (with the current status numbers) the old system allowed more shotguns to work better than now (a majority of them even!). Now only the minority of shotguns work well.

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

I'm talking about the old shotgun status formula itself. It had a "functionally unusable probability curve" because it's function was to be used by players, who were unable to access the 99-99.9999999999999999999999% that contained the entire rest of the status spectrum.

Most of shotguns could reach 100% before this change. This could be through augments, Motus Setup, old Shotgun Savvy... anything with 23% could be modded to be status.

But that's about it for shotguns. Only 100% status or bust in the old system.

[rapt0rman]

Just now, nslay said:

Most of shotguns could reach 100% before this change. This could be through augments, Motus Setup, old Shotgun Savvy... anything with 23% could be modded to be status.

But that's about it for shotguns. Only 100% status or bust in the old system.

And that's why it was a bad system. And that's why DE changed it. 

Here's the thing, they aren't going to roll it back. It makes so much more sense to request/suggest buffs, then to worry about how things worked in the broken old system. Shotguns are out of the dark ages.

[Teridax68]

14 minutes ago, nslay said:

If you start with defining status chance to be "per-shot" for shotguns, then the math leads you to the old formula. There's no hacks, engineering or trickery... just probability theory. You apparently don't like the "per-shot" interpretation, but that doesn't make it wrong, justified, etc... DE chose that interpretation and that's where it lead.

While I like the new system, I will say (with the current status numbers) the old system allowed more shotguns to work better than now (a majority of them even!). Now only the minority of shotguns work well.

I completely disagree, because on purely objective terms, the old formula made balancing status a lot less stable (again, the difference between 99% and 100% status on shotguns), forced certain shotguns to require a Riven (and those Rivens were, of course, massively overpriced), and left a lot of shotguns in the dust. Those are the problems I, many other players, and DE themselves saw in the formula, which is why it got changed. There is no sense in "interpreting" anything in that sense when we have standardized status to apply per projectile, including in cases of weapons with multishot. You also don't seem to be listening, because the reason status shotguns aren't doing so hot right now is because their base status chance is simply not high enough (that, and people are still holding them to pre-rework standards, which were insane). Given the right numbers, you could even have status shotguns apply status with 100% chance or more with every pellet using the current formula, so there really is no reason to switch back.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Teridax68

[nslay]

Just now, rapt0rman said:

And that's why it was a bad system. And that's why DE changed it. 

Here's the thing, they aren't going to roll it back. It makes so much more sense to request/suggest buffs, then to worry about how things worked in the broken old system. Shotguns are out of the dark ages.

Bad system or not, it allowed more shotguns to work well. The new system is currently far worse than the old system. Shotguns are objectively bad now.

So yes, you get more build variety now. But build variety of all the bad sorts... except for a few shotguns where Hunter Munitions can be reliably used as a crutch.

[Teridax68]

4 minutes ago, nslay said:

Bad system or not, it allowed more shotguns to work well.

How so? Which characteristic of the older system allowed more shotguns to work well?

4 minutes ago, nslay said:

The new system is currently far worse than the old system. Shotguns are objectively bad now.

How so? Which characteristic of the new system is causing shotguns to be "objectively bad now"?