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ligonare

Riven Disposition - A new system proposed

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Right now, riven disposition is solely based on DE stat sheet of popularity and weapon power. While the latter is generally accepted, the former is not. There is a very good reason why stat tuning based on popularity is misguided and stupid:

Warframe will always have powercreep. The 'best' and 'better than X' weapons will always be popular.

Face it. Powercreep is a very real thing in a PvE game like warframe. It is not an inherently bad thing. The stats of the weapon determine if the weapon is gonna be meta, usable or mastery fodder. The flavor of the season are weapons that are relatively more efficient in killing, handling, etc than their counterparts. It is always a spectrum with no end. You cannot hope to push player choice of weapons based on riven balance alone as this game is constantly evolving with new weapons, mods, synergies and changes/tweaks. Something powerful for now might be outdated by 3 years time. Look at the soma, simulor, tigris and tonkor families. Their rivens are just now being made comparable in power to what was 3 years ago. I doubt this would make majority of the players pick up these forgotten weapons.

Rivens add power additively by base stats

Generally, a garbage weapon with a powerful disposition does not make the weapon more popular because a turd with gold brush is ultimately just a turd. If stats does not permit, that god tier riven can hardly salvage its reputation. Likewise, a weapon with strong stats stand to benefit more in power even with a weak riven. Gods are and still will be gods.

The biggest fallacy of all: Majority use meta weapons without a Riven

Riven RNG, capacity and many other factors discourage many from acquiring Rivens for their meta weapons. As such, many make do without them in their build for comparable results. Consequently, these players do not feel the pain of Riven Disposition Changes. Those who do are the invested and the speculators. This will hardly shift the usage as majority are unaffected. The playerbase just waits until a new weapon takes the crown. Hence, meta weapons remain meta for a considerable time, leading to a cascade effect as the riven disposion gets stomped on repeatedly while popularity remains rather stagnant.

Huge consequence? You bet there is.

The riven market is volatile like a stock market. People are ill-inclined to invest in a Riven for a good weapon when they know your history of balancing, DE. Why play dice with a system that does not respect your investment of Kuva, time, plat and such? You can hardly call your system working to 'promote lesser used weapons' when your data clearly shows that the miter, kraken are still not being widely used in end-game. These weapons just doesn't work there. The Kuva rerolling and Riven RNG is another rotten can of worms altogether for another date.

A solution: A 2 fold system (Disposition based on popularity + added disposition based on weapon usage)

Current Disposition System (Newly Unveiled + Traded Rivens only)

This disposition system aims to dent speculators. This first tier general disposition only affects newly unveiled and traded rivens while leaving current inventories intact.

Add-on Disposition System (All Rivens)

This disposition system works to promote player investment in their weapons independent of popularity. I always wondered why Warframe tracks my weapon stats (usage, kills, headshots, assists) and this is finally the correct place to put these stats to good use. The more you use the weapon with the riven equipped, the more powerful the riven grows. Feats and milestones can be added to accelerate the growth if necessary (like score 100 headshots in 2 mins or smth, I dunno. Be creative!). This will promote loyalty to the weapon even when it falls out of the meta. The progress for growth can be augmented based on the weapon stats perhaps. Generally strong weapon stats take more investments for riven growth compared to their weaker counterparts. Players can compromise on this as it has a proper direction than this current iteration.

How about trading?

There might be an issue of mules who would make powerful rivens of high stats values with an unhealthy amount of grinding. While their commitment is commendable, there must be precautions. Rivens that are traded will revert to their base disposition stats on the new owner's inventory. Simply put, you cannot earn power via your deep pockets. The stats perhaps, but not the values.

Another system for Riven Re-rolling is warranted but that will have to wait. For now, I have given you my opinion DE. Take it or leave it. 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, ligonare said:

Rivens add power additively by base stats

Generally, a garbage weapon with a powerful disposition does not make the weapon more popular because a turd with gold brush is ultimately just a turd. If stats does not permit, that god tier riven can hardly salvage its reputation. Likewise, a weapon with strong stats stand to benefit more in power even with a weak riven. Gods are and still will be gods.

That's the issue of Riven mods in a nutshell.

Percent based boosts won't make anything with an 8% crit/status chance viable.

A boost of 50% bonus damage on a 300 base damage weapon gives the same total boost as a 300% to a weapon with 50 base damage, that is why percent based scaling won't be able to do what DE intended with Rivens.

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It pains me to say this, but the current implementation of rivens is obviously not (primarily) guided by balancing concerns.

Typical scenario:

  1. New weapon gets released.
  2. It is excessively powerful to draw player interest, yet has has a high disposition.
  3. Rivens sell for 10000 plat, weapon is ridiculously overpowered.
  4. Nuclear nerfs incoming once DE sold enough plat.

Anyone with half a brain could take one look at this and come to the conclusion that new weapons would probably be better off with minimum disposition. I am sure these mods serve their purpose - it just isn't one you or me would appreciate.

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1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

Anyone with half a brain could take one look at this and come to the conclusion that new weapons would probably be better off with minimum disposition. I am sure these mods serve their purpose - it just isn't one you or me would appreciate.

So the continued conspiracy theory that DE is leaving Rivens this way to get more Plat is your argument?

Conspiracy theories are always popular, I guess.

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its kinda hard to change the riven system and anything else to reach his own porpue becuase the game is kinda needs alot of polish,theres no reason to go to crappy weps becuase they dont have the convenience and power of other weps and everything on startshart u can beat with a stick and a toy gun

Even if rivens will meet their porpuse it might kill some other weps and make people not want to use it becuase the weird turd in ur inventory is suddenly a god like gun of doom,basically its hard to make rivens feel right becuase this game is piss poor easy.

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13 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

"conspiracy theory"

I'd like you to set your rose tinted glasses aside for a second, and take stock of the facts:

  • This game is free to play.
  • Free to play games are infamous for using "inventive" means to get money out of their customers.
  • A random person off the street could likely improve on the current implementation of rivens, as far as balancing is concerned.
  • Rivens do indeed sell for 10000 plat.

What is the alternative to an ulterior motive? Incredible ineptitude. Pick your poison I guess.

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3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I'd like you to set your rose tinted glasses aside for a second, and take stock of the facts:

  • This game is free to play.
  • Free to play games are infamous for using "inventive" means to get money out of their customers.
  • A random person off the street could likely improve on the current implementation of rivens, as far as balancing is concerned.
  • Rivens do indeed sell for 10000 plat.

What is the alternative to an ulterior motive? Incredible ineptitude. Pick your poison I guess.

You imply that DE sets up this situation for gullible people to have thier money fleeced from them - this is where we do not agree.

No one forces people to pay these amounts for Rivens, that's on the players.

I love the way Rivens are implemented, I don't see a problem, only people that don't like to admit they made bad choices with real money.

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1 minute ago, Zimzala said:

You imply that DE sets up this situation for gullible people to have thier money fleeced from them - this is where we do not agree.

I dislike the Riven system and even I agree that the whole "DE nerfs things after they profit" thing is tinfoil hat territory.

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2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

the whole "DE nerfs things after they profit" thing is tinfoil hat territory

You should probably word that differently, since "DE nerfs things after they profit" is an easily observable fact. The only thing up for debate are intentions.

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1 minute ago, Aldain said:

I dislike the Riven system and even I agree that the whole "DE nerfs things after they profit" thing is tinfoil hat territory.

To me, the Riven system in WF is one of the most unique things in gaming, I love the idea of changing the mods based on player popularity.

I really do not understand any of the arguments against it that I have seen.

Some people just don't like things to change - it's a LIve Game, things will change.

Some people think the changes should be based around 'statistcal weapon balance' - boring, IMO.

Some people think that because players potentially spend money they will regret later it needs a change - I say humans should be responsible for thier own actions.

These are the main arguments I have seen, I just don't agree with any of them as reasons to change the basic concept.

I like the idea of twaeking the math based on usage and MR, etc.

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1 minute ago, Zimzala said:

I really do not understand any of the arguments against it that I have seen.

Honestly most of my complaints would go away if DE did one thing.

Make a separate Riven mod only trade chat. Part of my dislike of them is just how severely flooded it makes the trade chat, even the Switch version is 90% copy/pase "WTS x,y,z rivens for 1k plat".

I know many people use third party sites to trade, but the absurd number of Riven postings make it hard to find or sell anything, filters haven't helped me much either.

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1 minute ago, Aldain said:

Honestly most of my complaints would go away if DE did one thing.

Make a separate Riven mod only trade chat. Part of my dislike of them is just how severely flooded it makes the trade chat, even the Switch version is 90% copy/pase "WTS x,y,z rivens for 1k plat".

I know many people use third party sites to trade, but the absurd number of Riven postings make it hard to find or sell anything, filters haven't helped me much either.

So again, the problem is other players, not DE or the game...

I would not object to a more streamlined method of trading things in the game, or more tools to filter chat etc.

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1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

To me, the Riven system in WF is one of the most unique things in gaming, I love the idea of changing the mods based on player popularity.

I really do not understand any of the arguments against it that I have seen.

Some people just don't like things to change - it's a LIve Game, things will change.

Some people think the changes should be based around 'statistcal weapon balance' - boring, IMO.

Some people think that because players potentially spend money they will regret later it needs a change - I say humans should be responsible for thier own actions.

These are the main arguments I have seen, I just don't agree with any of them as reasons to change the basic concept.

I do think that people kinda overreact when it comes to the riven changes altho if the dispo goes all the way down to like 1 or 2 out of 5 they are pretty much meh and they can be switched by almost any mod available in the game.

rivens were made out in the first place to give weak weapons a chance against the meta,which executed pretty poorly.

popularity doesnt equal power really so it kinda make some frustration for the rivs for it to die completely,most of the frustration is the kuva investment i think? rivens have like 20-30 stats and also negative stats shuffled randomly so you getting ideal stuff or at least okay-good stats on a riven can go badly and it results in u rerolling a riven 20-50+ times basically crappy rng with alot of laughably bad stats that u dont care bout or some QoL stats that you either want and love or dont care for.

Having absolute luck be a factor to at least an okay-good roll is pretty bad game design imo.

Im mixed when it comes to rivs,i like some gambling in a game but when you have a tad bit too much factors to go in then its kinda pretty half baked.

 

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)grayhyh said:

I do think that people kinda overreact when it comes to the riven changes altho if the dispo goes all the way down to like 1 or 2 out of 5 they are pretty much meh and they can be switched by almost any mod available in the game.

rivens were made out in the first place to give weak weapons a chance against the meta,which executed pretty poorly.

popularity doesnt equal power really so it kinda make some frustration for the rivs for it to die completely,most of the frustration is the kuva investment i think? rivens have like 20-30 stats and also negative stats shuffled randomly so you getting ideal stuff or at least okay-good stats on a riven can go badly and it results in u rerolling a riven 20-50+ times basically S#&$ty rng with alot of laughably bad stats that u dont care bout or some QoL stats that you either want and love or dont care for.

Having absolute luck be a factor to at least an okay-good roll is pretty bad game design imo.

Im mixed when it comes to rivs,i like some gambling in a game but when you have a tad bit too much factors to go in then its kinda pretty half baked.

 

I would only care if the Rivens were actually needed to clear content.

While I agree the original idea for balance did not pan out quite the way it was intended, I still like the system, happy accidents are the best, IMO.

Since in erality the Rivens might be super-duper awesom or not, but content can be cleared w/o them, I just don't see a problem with the huge randomness.

I literally see Rivens as a thing powered by the mood of the Tenno, fickle and hard to pin down, something for flavor and fun, not this monetary trading device for wanna-be stock traders that players have convinced themsleves of since the long time in which Rivens did not change.

IMO, WF is based around RNG and killing hordes of pixels and while I would enjoy it if top-end power was more easily attainable, I would not enjoy it as much because fast progression is boring to me, I like the long term progression, I like the feeling of getting that good roll.

Finally, I love half-baked...I love the chaos of this game and it's implementation...these things make it interesting and give the world a living aspect that others do not have, IMO...it's a Live game, evolving and changing, it makes it fun to interact with IMO...software bugs and implementations that create new unintended systems are cool, IMO.

I play games for fun, to me, RNG is fun, WF is based around RNG, taking that out makes it less WF, IMO.

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In order to generate revenue with plat, buying it is not enough as it has to be spent to be bought back again. It can be infuriating for some as Riven are a P2W feature wich generates no revenue. It is a just a way for the game to provide better/commited players a stream of platinum. (Like it was the case for acanes pre SS, RIP)

Selling plat for people to buy rivens doesn't generate revenue overall for DE guys, when you buy plat in order to get a riven you make the puchase, however the plat you bought is still there in game to be consumed. What generates revenues for DE is when you consume plat in the market, for consummables, fashion or conveniance OR when you buy prime access stuff. Spending plat in this game is actually pretty fun and I don't know anybody who left the game definitely or closed an account with a 5K+ plat balance.

Overall Rivens have 0 impact on Warframe revenue. It is a more streamlined way for dedicated/crafty players to profit from P2W whales. It is a player driven greed engine.

Riven market is pretty simple and straightforward actually for players who use to navigate HnS games like PoE. We have the tools, not that much movement, pretty much walk in the park. Even if Rolling is dicey you alway can flip and/or grind more kuva.

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I always wonder why not just have disposition based on required mastery rank? huge on low mastery and lower in higher mastery, it is the weak weapons we want buffed in some capacity.

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6 hours ago, ligonare said:

Rivens add power additively by base stats

Generally, a garbage weapon with a powerful disposition does not make the weapon more popular because a turd with gold brush is ultimately just a turd. If stats does not permit, that god tier riven can hardly salvage its reputation. Likewise, a weapon with strong stats stand to benefit more in power even with a weak riven. Gods are and still will be gods.

There was once a turd weapon called Nukor. High status, Highest critical damage in game, non existent critical chance, Perfect Riven Disposition.

Someone got a powerful riven for this turd of a weapon, and suddenly it became meta.

Does the nukor (previous to release of the Kuva nukor) still was a turd with a gold brush? nope, it became so awful powerful, that it evolved from turd, to shiny meta.

Point is, there will always be some exceptions.

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How about this, riven dispo being balanced around popularity of the riven instead of popularity of the weapon. So the more soma rivens there are floating around the lower soma's dispo. 

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So why is this in the general trash heap and not feedback if its what you think could be improved on a existing system?

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Digital Extremes game, Digital Extremes rules. Had a whole text written out here, re-thunk it all and realized, my problem or disagreement with the game's design is my problem, not DE's.

 

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I mean....yes and yes and yes.

But to the point about rivens not helping under-powered weapons, maybe rivens should have "weapon points" based on their disposition.  These weapon points could then be allocated by the player to modify the base stats of the weapon (all other mods scale off of these).  Then find out some sort of balancing system.  Like the lowest disposition only gives you 1 point while the highest disposition gives you 10 points(or w/e is reasonable).  And then do things like 1 point = 2%status or 1% crit or 0.2% crit damage, etc. so that you could take a weapon with 0% crit/ 0% status with a max disposition and give it like 20% status or 10% crit, mix and match, etc.

As pointed out, really good rivens won't do much for really bad weapons, so the only way it could be fixed really is either making rivens scale enormously off of disposition(which could be really unbalanced super fast) or make rivens allow better base stats to weapons.

Or we can just keep the system as is until DE comes out with damage 3.0 b/c we need that and rivens might have to change again for that.

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Can agree to pretty much any point of OP. There needs to be some significant change/changes made to weapon balancing, if even. I never really invested into rivens all too much of plat, but occasionally, I bought a good one. Just to see it getting nerfed utterly, usually. I do like your way of how reworking works, but I doubt it is possible the way DE seems to handle riven mods.

I usually don't really go on the forums, to be frank, but the riven system as it was implemented is awkward and will always remain awkward unless significantly changed. Let me just talk about it after I stated the following: "New weapon = Dispo 3 even if base stats are overpowered already", has been a thing for quite a while now. I understand partly how people dislike this feature, plus I understand the other side of the coin, especially how the big game hunters in the game, with thousands of plat and resources, are always eagerly waiting to rock the whole PvE scene yet again with a new toy. Then again, if you complain about that, please also think about literally any other RPG/MMORGP/Etc. that does exactly the same thing and will charge you monthly or with DLCs, or anything else. So the whole scheme about that is not really DE's fault, if it ever was to begin with. New = better and thus desirable is a core-mechanic of our modern society, so if anything, just complain about mankind as a whole but really not about the same old done in any game that is getting updated.

After mentioning this, there has been so many complaints, constructive criticism plus possible solutions about how riven mods could work for everyone that I just want to share a few of those ideas, yet again, on another forum post that probably never gets the attention of DE in the first place. Can't hurt to try, now can it?

Why, in god's forsaken name, is the riven system 100% rng when it consumes so much of a player's time? Almost everything in Warframe is designed for casual players or, to put it in a more constructive way, give players a lot of options to run and be successful in all the different mission types. On one hand, no one needs a perfect riven (or a riven at all) for anything to run a long Arbitration if the team constellation is right, nor do they need some perfectly balanced weapon loadout. So even more lax players can enjoy pretty much everything there is to Warframe. On the other hand, you simply can powercreep your way solo through almost anything, including Arbitration, Eidolon hunts, etc. if you know your way around and feature the right gear. This leads me to the obvious complaint yet again: Why is one of the core systems to powercreep, like the riven system, that can not just enhance your overall power, but even more so your weapon loadout to be perfectly adjusted to gain valuable, already highly-limited mod-slots for more utility, full of rotten rng? It's not like you can just go buy millions of Kuva and happily roll away. No, you can not. You need to farm, a lot. And it stops being fun around the 10th time the queen tells her lackeys they are supposed to report in for execution. There is only so much variety out there you can buy.

DE even went out of their way to re-shape the Kuva-Lich system, giving us ways to go around the rng and to farm our way to what we want the most, a powerful weapon. So why? Really, why is it still just plain, stubborn rng with the whole riven system? Most money DE makes comes anyway from skins and the likes, I barely know people who buy plat to get rivens. Just because those with 100k+ plat, which is usually achieved through trades and, yet again, farming and investing a lot of time, obviously have an easier way to be more powerful as they can simply buy the "perfect" riven, does not mean a lot of people do that or want to do that. So if that is, unofficially, the reason as to why DE is not doing it, yeah. Then we are all obviously damned with this system until Warframe is gone. If that is not the actual reason why the system is not changed, and to be honest I do not think that this is but, in fact, a problem with the technical aspect of how riven mods are handled by the server and a lack of innovation as to how to change that, I want to open the eyes of everyone glaring at those with thousands of platinum doing "p2w" by saying the following: Gaining a few dozen thousands of plat can be done in a few weeks. Even without dealing in rivens. Believe me that much. Especially once you start your own little trading enterprise with a lot of things to choose from. So you can all get your "God"-riven by trading if you want to, so don't complain about those who actually do that. Not everyone scams for life. Not everyone actually does honest trading all the time. But regardless, you can buy decent rivens, always, if you want to and work for it.

Small recent experience: Yet another personal misfortune, I just spent around 350k of Kuva and my riven remains unchanged. 154% dmg/92% ele, Jat Kusar. This is especially problematic because, as I previously stated, mod slots are really limited. And this roll does not cut it for me to actually do what I want. Every other roll was insanely awkward in its stats it featured, or just so low on % that I could literally throw a stone at the screen and not feel bad about it. Even though my Monitor was 400 bucks. Actually I might just do that. What's the point in playing and farming Warframe when every time I use a few 100k of Kuva does not even remotely get me what I want or need? I don't want Dmg/CC/CD. I want something special, for a special build. And guess what, no one is selling that, so how am I supposed to get a very specific mod with very specific stats when I can not influence what I can get? I have the plat, but no one supplies. So why do I have to be at the mercy of rng, yet again? Especially if this is caused by the melee 2.0 update, which I, again, had no influence on? Anyone following so far?

The obvious solution is a milestone-system, to not just grind out the highest, possible % for a riven, but also the attributes for it. Possibly, like OP stated, also to add base stats depending on how much we use a weapon, giving us another increase. Especially when a weapon is considered to be relatively under-used (and thus, usually weak) this can be tweaked with gaining higher % for a weapon and adjusting that in the future. This is literally the only way how an actual improvement to riven mods and its system can be achieved while not breaking the whole disposition-thing completely apart. Hell, I do not even need a highest % possible riven, but at least I want to be able to determine what stats I get and THEN, you may ask me to re-roll for higher percentages while my +++/- mod with the stats I want stays the same. Also, to mention the riven trading market, it will always find a way to go around and break the grind somehow. So please don't bring that up too much as a counter-argument. People are horrible and try to get as much of an advantage as possible even when it means scamming others. That is just how these games work. No I don't do that. I don't have to, simply. But every rule is confirmed by exceptions right?

Also, when recycling rivens, I don't understand, yet again, why rng is the only way this is supposed to go. Just give us a goddamn consumable that is somehow obtainable in the game to at least gives us a % chance to get a riven for a weapon we want. What is the point in trashing 4 rivens when you just can get trash yet again? This will also make the riven market, in general, more stable in the first few weeks new weapons come out. The ridiculous prices are paid, not by me, but they are. Still, why does it, yet again, have to be almost 100% rng?

The whole riven-system was, supposedly, designed as a balance-feature to make a lot of weapons viable somehow. Frankly, it did not work. How can it do that when some weapons are stuck around 30 base dmg and 5% crit chance and a 1.5 cd multiplier? It can not. But at least, prior to melee 2.0, slide crit builds with a few weapons were possible and very useful, even pretty overpowered, on some weapons that had nothing else going for it. Now, that is gone too, mostly. So another downfall for "balancing". The new heavy-attack spam builds is just the replacement for those lost "spin and win" possibilities, featuring yet again another horrible rng you have to face to get what you want. This can not be how any long-time player wants to see things happening. I like the new fluent 2.0 melee since the release, but it broke a few of my most-treasured builds. I am not actually angry about that though. I am salty about how my rivens are just sitting there now and are perfectly useless and I am uncertain if I can ever actually get what I want. Especially giving my, so far, horrible luck when it came to rivens.

To cross-reference this rng somehow: Path of Exile is extremely random with all its gear, and so are other games like Diablo 3, Torchlight, etc. But you simply get truckloads of loot there you don't even bother most of the time. You just keep going as you lvl up. Only at some point, late in the game, things get tricky. But, even there, you usually have ways to influence the stats on your gear. So...again, why can we not do that with rivens? We do not even have the option to swap-out alternative abilities for our Warframe, which would have been a really great feature to see a long time ago, but we got Augments instead. Which conflict with our limited Mod-Slots. So, when are rivens for Warframes a thing?

Anyway, often enough in Warframe, you work with your weapons to deal the dmg, with its modifiers, with a specific build, or at least a desired specific build. You can not just level up and keep nuking everything around you as the lvl increases over time in a lot of mission. So it should be natural to promote longevity of a system and not constantly change dispositions, weapon stats, etc. just so it "fits" again, making the hard work you've done once go to waste. First of all, the solution is to fix the root of a system that is not working how it originally was supposed to. Then, do some work on the branches. Not the other way. No one really asked for a return of Heavy-Melee for instance. It opens up some new ways to play the game, but, then again, the changes with the melee 2.0 also destroyed a lot of builds. With no way but to deal with horrible rng to get another build going.

So please, shift the focus on some QoL updates and rework the existing systems that are in need of some work. Like Augments having their own Slots, or at least 1,2  additional slots to use some. Or, what this comment is actually about, not letting us dump millions of Kuva to not get anything, while others get their desired stats after 10 rolls, which you might never achieve because rng does not favor you. That is not just infuriating but, most of all, insulting to the player. Especially given how DE handled the Kuva-Lich system and adapted it fast, which was really done well if you ask me. The riven system now needs a similar thing. Something to actually improve it and makes it adaptable for players when the developer rolls out changes. And not the player constantly having to adapt to the whim of the developer, being at its mercy. Especially the riven system could be great with a few tweaks and ideas here and there. But right now with the constant disposition balancing, it is extremely hard for anyone to get into without a big fountain of platinum. Or, in general, just keep investing in it, knowing what will happen in 3 months.

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