Revenant Needs a Rework or at least Quality of Life Changes

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

54 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

So the problem is that teammates kill thralls. Cool. I agree and think that's a problem. How about we suggest DE fixes that so teammates don't kill Revenant's minions instead of nuking his kit from orbit?

How? I've played Chroma with Vex Armor, Nidus with Link, and Mesa with her Shatter Shield, and they're just as reliable as Mesmer Skin which only gets worse the higher level the enemies get. The only problem Mesmer Skin might have is consistency such as those heavy dropships in the Plains of Eidolon outright ignoring the cooldown of his charges being consumed whenever it shoots him. However, I consider that a bug which needs to be addressed and not a flaw in his skill.

No Revenant player uses Reave for healing or movement. Any good player will have invested in maxing out the Operator's void dash which is far more versatile for mobility. Hell, bullet jumping and some basic understanding of parkour is more than sufficient in most missions. Reave is mostly used for regenerating Mesmer Skin charges and nuking single-targets using the percent health damage that is multiplied against thralls (250%+ power strength guarantees 1shots against any enemy that isn't a nox, eximus, lich, sentient, or a handful of bosses).

If I want to use a frame for movement skills, I'd use Nova, Gauss, Volt, or Wukong. If I want to have healing, I'd play Trinity or Nidus.

Can you try making an argument against this skill without comparing it to broken nuke frames? Literally nothing compares to nuke frames with how OP they are. By that logic, 95% of all frames in this game are terrible and need to be redesigned.

And Revenant isn't worthless without the skill. I hardly use the skill and prefer to use him for what Revenant is: A tank that can obliterate any 1-7 enemies at a moment's notice. The skill is just fine and doesn't need to compare with broken frames. That's ridiculous. If you think Revenant is worthless because he's not a press-4-to-win frame, that says more about you, your playstyle, and your ability to play him than it is the frame itself. 😛

Everything you've said has been personal opinion about Revenant being bad in your eyes. And that's fine. You don't like him, and that's okay. You don't have to like every frame. I certainly don't, and I absolutely hate broken nuke frames because it allows the game to play itself for me if I team up with someone who is playing them.

Are there legitimate issues with Revenant which you and OP have brought up, such as thralls being killed by teammates or Mesmer Skin's charge consumption cooldown being ignored by some circumstances? Absolutely, no disagreements there! Is that reason to delete the frame or its skill kit? Hell no!

Like I said before: If your main concern is how it doesn't mesh with the frame's theme, then just rework Revenant and move the old kit to another that is more accurate like a Dracula frame or whatever. I wouldn't disagree with this, I can see where some people would have an issue with it, but it's still not a reason to throw out the entire kit.

Or they can just replace Enthrall with an actual good ability that properly Eidolon themed. Like summoning Vomvalysts that work with your abilities instead of being sacrificed for them.

Link, vex armor, and shatter shield don’t get chewed through like tissue paper just because there’s more than 5 enemies on the screen. Charges based defense abilities do not work in a horde shooter! There’s a reason the only place you see Revenants are in Index. Because it’s the only place that doesn’t obliterate Mesmer skin in under 20 seconds.

Both functions require Thralls which lets check again, or right are always dead because of squadmates. So Reave is literally worthless without the ability that doesn’t exist. So it’s worthless.

I mean. Danse is just a mindless nuke move. I could compare it to tempest barrage of you want. Don’t see the real benefit in that.

Revenants one shot takes more than “a moment” to set up. You have to cast Enthrall either numerous times or once and wait for it to spread to seven enemies. Next you have to cast Reave. Then you have to steer Reave to each individual enemy. And I forgot to mention how mind numbing lay slow these abilities cast animations are. All that takes more than “a moments notice”.

Revenant is a press 4 to win frame. Because Danse Macabre is his best ability and it’s a brain dead AOE Damage ability.

If simple issues with Revenants kit isn’t enough, then we can get into the really bitty gritty of how awful he is. Mesmer Skin actively restricts Danse Macabres scaling mechanic, Danse Macabre destroys Enthralls Damage pillars, Danse killing Thralls creates overshields for a frame that doesn’t rely on them, Reave healing a frame that doesn’t rely on health, All his self sustain being tied to synergies instead of being spread throughout the kit or the tank ability being able to maintain itself for more than 30 seconds, his passive being useless. I could probably find more. Revenants design is awful. His abilities stumble over each other. They have no flow. It’s painfully obvious that these abilities were never designed with these synergies they have in mind, especially when you consider than the synergies didn’t exist until a week after his release.

And now to the biggest issue with Revenant. The main reason he is the way he is and why he’s such a clusterf*** of design. HIS THEME MAKES NO SENSE.

His design, his backstory, his ability aesthetic. All Eidolon themed and focused around, but what are his 1,2, and 3 modeled after? Vampires. Because for some god forsaken reason they let Rebecca lead his development and figured “oh hey nobody would mind if I turn this Eidolon themed Warframe into a vampire”. Just straight no consideration for the fact that his concept art was literally labeled “Eidolon Warframe”. Not even the slightest thought of how terrible an idea it is to just ignore a frames theme to put whatever powers you want on it. And what was the result? Steve saying after the stream that the “Eidolon Warframe” needs to actually have Eidolon related powers.

And then you couple that with the fact that you have some who does not design video games for a living designing this Warframes gameplay. And unsurprisingly the result is the worst designed frame in the game. With abilities you’d expect from a frame released in 2013.

Now you may be think “Oh but gears maybe there’s something in his backstory that justifies the vampire powers”. There’s nothing. He’s a frame rebuilt and corrupted by EIDOLONS and comes out as some Wannabe Nosferatu. 

So the combination of his sub-par gameplay performance, amateurish ability design, and most nonsensical neglect of his theme painfully obvious theme that should’ve been focused on. Warrants a full f***ing rework of his abilities.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

7 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

I read the entire thread before responding. If all you xbone players are using reave for the heal only, then all I can say is there are no skilled Rev players on xbone. 

I also never mentioned reave having anything to do with situational awareness, that is your creation... Own up!

Skilled players do not spam. They control exactly what they do, and use skills, or weapons when needed in a very decisive manor. Spamming is how the majority of noobs play.😈

I never said Reave spamming involved situational awareness. I said you’re mistaking spamming Reave for having situational awareness. Because what I’ve gathered from Revenant players is that they sit there and say “MeSmEr SkIn Is BeSt TaNk AbIlItY”, and yet the gameplay videos they share of them is them spamming Reave, which grant invulnerability and prevents Mesmer charges from being lost. So yeah hard to take a claim like that seriously when they aren’t even tanking with the ability they’re defending.

[Double.]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Mesmer: pick any tank ability, literally any tank ability, and it’s far more reliable than Mesmer skin.

You know that literally is one of the best tank abilites in this game,right? It can absorb a lvl 9999 projectile and stuns him,after that you can cast your 1st ability for free,and if you have at least 249% power strength (that you should have,because you are a Revenant) you can 1-shot every enemy in this game,except ones with damage reduction IIRC,like Index enemies.
Revenant is one of the most overpowered frames in the game,not for your lvl 50 exterminate,but for a person that wants to reach an actual endgame,he is far better than nuke frames.

[IceColdHawk]

2 minutes ago, DoubleSamPT said:

You know that literally is one of the best tank abilites in this game,right? It can absorb a lvl 9999 projectile and stuns him,after that you can cast your 1st ability for free,and if you have at least 249% power strength (that you should have,because you are a Revenant) you can 1-shot every enemy in this game,except ones with damage reduction IIRC,like Index enemies.
Revenant is one of the most overpowered frames in the game,not for your lvl 50 exterminate,but for a person that wants to reach an actual endgame,he is far better than nuke frames.

Wait, the game goes beyond level 50?!? I thought Inaros was immortal.

[Pizzarugi]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Or they can just replace Enthrall with an actual good ability that properly Eidolon themed. Like summoning Vomvalysts that work with your abilities instead of being sacrificed for them.

Again, this sounds more like an issue you have with the kit not meshing with the theme. There's nothing wrong with Enthrall converting enemies to your side and using them as disposable minions which give you benefits based on the other skills. It eliminates enemies as a threat temporarily so you can focus on other things like the objective or taking down VIP targets with Reave.

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Link, vex armor, and shatter shield don’t get chewed through like tissue paper just because there’s more than 5 enemies on the screen. Charges based defense abilities do not work in a horde shooter! There’s a reason the only place you see Revenants are in Index. Because it’s the only place that doesn’t obliterate Mesmer skin in under 20 seconds.

In all the time I've played Revenant which has been a lot by now, I've never been caught in situations where my Mesmer Skin gets chewed up so quickly because of a handful of enemies. The only time this has been a problem is when I've been hit by things that ignore its mechanics like the heavy dropship in the plains or enemies affected by drones in Arbitration. Those are very few scenarios compared to the vast majority which is the rest of the game. I wouldn't object if Mesmer Skin charges got buffed to have a forced cooldown of 1 charge per half second if you're being shot at like someone else suggested, but the skill is otherwise fine.

Perhaps I can see this being a problem if you don't bother to increase your power strength which has an effect on how many charges it has.

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Both functions require Thralls which lets check again, or right are always dead because of squadmates. So Reave is literally worthless without the ability that doesn’t exist. So it’s worthless.

Quote

So the problem is that teammates kill thralls. Cool. I agree and think that's a problem. How about we suggest DE fixes that so teammates don't kill Revenant's minions instead of nuking his kit from orbit?

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I mean. Danse is just a mindless nuke move.

You literally compared it to Peacemakers in my last post, which is far more mindless. Danse has limited range and limited damage which can be bypassed if you hate having energy and want to have it all gone, and it's only effective against enemies who are on the same Y Axis as the player.

Peacemakers, however...
https://i.imgur.com/jM08p0v.mp4 (Okay, I'm done trying to actually embed this into the post. It just wont for some reason. Someone help me, I'm dumb. T_T)

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Revenants one shot takes more than “a moment” to set up. You have to cast Enthrall either numerous times or once and wait for it to spread to seven enemies. Next you have to cast Reave. Then you have to steer Reave to each individual enemy. And I forgot to mention how mind numbing lay slow these abilities cast animations are. All that takes more than “a moments notice”.

There's nothing wrong with 1shots actually taking time to set up. In fact, I wish DE did more of that with other frames and weapons. Garuda is a perfect example of a nuke frame done right, because it takes a while to charge up her blood bomb to 1shot enemies.

And as an aside, if you don't like the cast animations, there's nothing stopping you from picking up the mod that makes you use your abilities faster. Revenant's not the only frame that benefits from that mod, by the way. Are they terrible as well?

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Revenant is a press 4 to win frame. Because Danse Macabre is his best ability and it’s a brain dead AOE Damage ability.

Again, if you think his 4 is his best ability, that says more about you, your playstyle, and your skill with the frame more than the frame itself.

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

[...] Mesmer Skin actively restricts Danse Macabres scaling mechanic, Danse Macabre destroys Enthralls Damage pillars, Danse killing Thralls creates overshields for a frame that doesn’t rely on them, Reave healing a frame that doesn’t rely on health, All his self sustain being tied to synergies instead of being spread throughout the kit or the tank ability being able to maintain itself for more than 30 seconds, his passive being useless. I could probably find more. [...]

How does Mesmer Skin restrict Danse's scaling? The more damage Mesmer reflects, the more its added to the beams which makes it stronger.

Just about all of this is you not liking some minor features in his skill kit that aren't the main attraction. People don't use Revenant for the damage pillars thralls create when killed past low level, their damage is pretty bad as is. At best, you might use the pillars to create those homing projectiles which seek out and hit other enemies nearby, enthralling them, but you're better off just letting other thralls propagate or doing it yourself when they're stunned by Mesmer Skin. You don't play Revenant just for healing or overshields, they exist as neat little synergies that serve to give you some small defensive bonuses on the rare chance you actually run out of Mesmer Skin charges. There's nothing wrong with any of this being tied to synergies either, it helps encourage the player to do more than mindlessly slap 1 ability out of the 4 available to win the game. It's what makes Nidus one of the best frames in the game. Also, Revenant's passive is just as useless as Nova's, the only difference between the two is the condition that sets it off. It's pretty clear most passives in this game are meant to be minor or outright negligible with some rare exceptions like Nidus becoming immortal for 5 seconds if he gets downed while having 15+ mutation. This isn't a valid argument.

And the rest of your paragraph is just personal opinion about the frame.

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

And now to the biggest issue with Revenant. The main reason he is the way he is and why he’s such a clusterf*** of design. HIS THEME MAKES NO SENSE.

His design, his backstory, his ability aesthetic. All Eidolon themed and focused around, but what are his 1,2, and 3 modeled after? Vampires. Because for some god forsaken reason they let Rebecca lead his development and figured “oh hey nobody would mind if I turn this Eidolon themed Warframe into a vampire”. Just straight no consideration for the fact that his concept art was literally labeled “Eidolon Warframe”. Not even the slightest thought of how terrible an idea it is to just ignore a frames theme to put whatever powers you want on it. And what was the result? Steve saying after the stream that the “Eidolon Warframe” needs to actually have Eidolon related powers.

And then you couple that with the fact that you have some who does not design video games for a living designing this Warframes gameplay. And unsurprisingly the result is the worst designed frame in the game. With abilities you’d expect from a frame released in 2013.

Now you may be think “Oh but gears maybe there’s something in his backstory that justifies the vampire powers”. There’s nothing. He’s a frame rebuilt and corrupted by EIDOLONS and comes out as some Wannabe Nosferatu. 

I already responded to this earlier, but I'll snip my quote again:

Quote

If your main concern is how it doesn't mesh with the frame's theme, then just rework Revenant and move the old kit to another that is more accurate like a Dracula frame or whatever. I wouldn't disagree with this, I can see where some people would have an issue with it, but it's still not a reason to throw out the entire kit.

Sorry, nothing you've said so far justifies your reasoning that Revenant's skill kit should be burned to the ground and rebuilt beyond the fact it doesn't fit his theme as an eidolon frame. I want to repeat that I can understand your reasoning why it doesn't make sense compared to the eidolons we fight in the plains which he is based on. However, the solution to this problem isn't to just bin the kit and start again. Rework the frame to be more eidolon theme, but move the skill kit to a new frame that would be more thematically fitting for it.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Pizzarugi

[nslay]

19 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

In all the time I've played Revenant which has been a lot by now, I've never been caught in situations where my Mesmer Skin gets chewed up so quickly because of a handful of enemies. The only time this has been a problem is when I've been hit by things that ignore its mechanics like the heavy dropship in the plains or enemies affected by drones in Arbitration. Those are very few scenarios compared to the vast majority which is the rest of the game. I wouldn't object if Mesmer Skin charges got buffed to have a forced cooldown of 1 charge per half second if you're being shot at like someone else suggested, but the skill is otherwise fine.

Perhaps I can see this being a problem if you don't bother to increase your power strength which has an effect on how many charges it has.

Some indicators of an arm chair Revenant expert (not you!):

1. Argues using abilities as written on paper (usually selectively) and purely in thought experiments (e.g. 10 Grineer with unrealistic 100% accuracy and unrealistic super ultra high fire rate strips Revenant's instantly! *cough* Ignoring the stun effect or realistic use in concert with other abilities *cough*).
2. Compares Mesmer Skin to Amesha's different and worse ability (e.g. Amesha's Watchful Swarm in this completely different game mode is awful and Mesmer Skin is only superficially like it, therefore Mesmer Skin is bad).
3. Admits to not playing Revenant very much. Won't take advice on how to play Revenant. Dismisses Revenant players as defending their favorite/pet frame that should be disregarded by DE.
4. Gives examples that are indicative of extreme inexperience (e.g. I lost 28 Mesmer Skin stacks in seconds in a Revenant bonus Arbitration, therefore Mesmer Skin is bad, e.g. Danse Macabre is his best ability).
5. Equates personal experience with the experience of everyone else (e.g. I had trouble with Revenant, therefore he's a bad frame for everyone else).
6. Ignores or does not acknowledge examples (e.g. from screenshots, videos, experiments).

There are only a handful of critics that match some of these criteria and while some of their criticisms are completely unjustified, take care to acknowledge actual problems/inconsistencies with his kit (and there are some... but they are usually secondary in nature!). Some points like never encountering level 9999 enemies is also valid!

At some point, you just have to walk away... and that's largely what I've done! These guys (notably Gears) do not like his skills or how he was created. You can't change their minds.

[Pizzarugi]

2 minutes ago, nslay said:

There are only a handful of critics that match some of these criteria and while some of their criticisms are completely unjustified, take care to acknowledge actual problems/inconsistencies with his kit (and there are some... but they are usually secondary in nature!). Some points like never encountering level 9999 enemies is also valid!

At some point, you just have to walk away... and that's largely what I've done! These guys (notably Gears) do not like his skills or how he was created. You can't change their minds.

That is correct. Even a good Revenant player can see faults in his kit that should be addressed. There is definitely room for improvement here, the same can be said for lots of other frames in fact.

And while I agree with your second statement, a part of me feels that my silence might contribute to giving DE the wrong impression that people dislike Revenant at large which might make them consider trashing his kit outright. I wish to make it seen that there are people who enjoy Revenant, that his kit is overall fine, even though it could still be worked on to make everyone happy.

[nslay]

7 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

That is correct. Even a good Revenant player can see faults in his kit that should be addressed. There is definitely room for improvement here, the same can be said for lots of other frames in fact.

And while I agree with your second statement, a part of me feels that my silence might contribute to giving DE the wrong impression that people dislike Revenant at large which might make them consider trashing his kit outright. I wish to make it seen that there are people who enjoy Revenant, that his kit is overall fine, even though it could still be worked on to make everyone happy.

That's fair. I didn't think of that... I would hope DE makes decisions about frames based on usage statistics they collect.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

58 minutes ago, DoubleSamPT said:

You know that literally is one of the best tank abilites in this game,right? It can absorb a lvl 9999 projectile and stuns him,after that you can cast your 1st ability for free,and if you have at least 249% power strength (that you should have,because you are a Revenant) you can 1-shot every enemy in this game,except ones with damage reduction IIRC,like Index enemies.
Revenant is one of the most overpowered frames in the game,not for your lvl 50 exterminate,but for a person that wants to reach an actual endgame,he is far better than nuke frames.

I literally don’t have the patience to explain to you how blatantly ignorant that statement is.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

Again, this sounds more like an issue you have with the kit not meshing with the theme. There's nothing wrong with Enthrall converting enemies to your side and using them as disposable minions which give you benefits based on the other skills. It eliminates enemies as a threat temporarily so you can focus on other things like the objective or taking down VIP targets with Reave.

In all the time I've played Revenant which has been a lot by now, I've never been caught in situations where my Mesmer Skin gets chewed up so quickly because of a handful of enemies. The only time this has been a problem is when I've been hit by things that ignore its mechanics like the heavy dropship in the plains or enemies affected by drones in Arbitration. Those are very few scenarios compared to the vast majority which is the rest of the game. I wouldn't object if Mesmer Skin charges got buffed to have a forced cooldown of 1 charge per half second if you're being shot at like someone else suggested, but the skill is otherwise fine.

Perhaps I can see this being a problem if you don't bother to increase your power strength which has an effect on how many charges it has.

 

You literally compared it to Peacemakers in my last post, which is far more mindless. Danse has limited range and limited damage which can be bypassed if you hate having energy and want to have it all gone, and it's only effective against enemies who are on the same Y Axis as the player.

Peacemakers, however...
https://i.imgur.com/jM08p0v.mp4 (Okay, I'm done trying to actually embed this into the post. It just wont for some reason. Someone help me, I'm dumb. T_T)

There's nothing wrong with 1shots actually taking time to set up. In fact, I wish DE did more of that with other frames and weapons. Garuda is a perfect example of a nuke frame done right, because it takes a while to charge up her blood bomb to 1shot enemies.

And as an aside, if you don't like the cast animations, there's nothing stopping you from picking up the mod that makes you use your abilities faster. Revenant's not the only frame that benefits from that mod, by the way. Are they terrible as well?

Again, if you think his 4 is his best ability, that says more about you, your playstyle, and your skill with the frame more than the frame itself.

How does Mesmer Skin restrict Danse's scaling? The more damage Mesmer reflects, the more its added to the beams which makes it stronger.

Just about all of this is you not liking some minor features in his skill kit that aren't the main attraction. People don't use Revenant for the damage pillars thralls create when killed past low level, their damage is pretty bad as is. At best, you might use the pillars to create those homing projectiles which seek out and hit other enemies nearby, enthralling them, but you're better off just letting other thralls propagate or doing it yourself when they're stunned by Mesmer Skin. You don't play Revenant just for healing or overshields, they exist as neat little synergies that serve to give you some small defensive bonuses on the rare chance you actually run out of Mesmer Skin charges. There's nothing wrong with any of this being tied to synergies either, it helps encourage the player to do more than mindlessly slap 1 ability out of the 4 available to win the game. It's what makes Nidus one of the best frames in the game. Also, Revenant's passive is just as useless as Nova's, the only difference between the two is the condition that sets it off. It's pretty clear most passives in this game are meant to be minor or outright negligible with some rare exceptions like Nidus becoming immortal for 5 seconds if he gets downed while having 15+ mutation. This isn't a valid argument.

And the rest of your paragraph is just personal opinion about the frame.

I already responded to this earlier, but I'll snip my quote again:

Sorry, nothing you've said so far justifies your reasoning that Revenant's skill kit should be burned to the ground and rebuilt beyond the fact it doesn't fit his theme as an eidolon frame. I want to repeat that I can understand your reasoning why it doesn't make sense compared to the eidolons we fight in the plains which he is based on. However, the solution to this problem isn't to just bin the kit and start again. Rework the frame to be more eidolon theme, but move the skill kit to a new frame that would be more thematically fitting for it.

Eidolons do not mind control their enemies. Do a triceps sometime. It literally never happens. You cannot say there is nothing wrong with the ability existing on Revenant when there is a massive issue of it not making sense for the frame to have it. It would be like if Frost started shooting fire balls.

Well if I learned anything from Rev mains it’s that they spam tf out of Reave, pretty much preventing any instances of damage. So my only assumption is you are doing the same.

Danse is still a press 4 to win ability no matter how you describe it. You press 4, ability activated, enemies die. No other input required.

Yes there’s a good way to do one shots. Revenants is just an example of the worst way to do it. Which is making it completely impractical for regular gameplay.

I shouldn’t have to rely on band aid mods to fix an issue with a frame that shouldn’t be an issue to begin with. Literally none of his abilities have justification for why they’re so slow.

Objectively speak Danse Macabre is Revenants best ability. It gives the best performance with the least amount of effort.

Memser Skin stuns enemies. So it’s constantly reducing the number of enemies shooting at Revenant. And Danses  scaling damage reduces at a very rapid rate, so it needs consistent damage to be maintained. Mesmer skin actively prevents consistent damage from being obtained.

You can’t just write off literal ability conflicts and anti synergies as “oh well it’s all subjective”. No this is literal bad design and to no admit is is insane.

If my previous response didn’t convince you I’ll hit you with the coldest hardest fact possible.

REVENANT IS TRASH!

There is absolutely nothing he provides that other frames can’t do better. He is the lowest pick of lowest picks. The literal digital representation of all things garbage. And I’ll tell you right now. The only way you’re going to get me to ever shut up about it is by getting Revenant reworked into a properly Eidolon themed Warframe with actual good abilities. So start telling DE to get on it.

Edited April 14, 2020 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

 

1. Admits to not playing Revenant very much. Won't take advice on how to play Revenant. Dismisses Revenant players as defending their favorite/pet frame that should be disregarded by DE

Oh I’m sorry I wasn’t aware that being made physically sick by Revenant mere presence in my loadout counts as a point against me.

Also just want to point out that many of these accusations are wrong. You’re talking past hyperboles as serious fact.

I said his abilities sound good on paper but are garbage in practice.

I compare it to Ameshas ability because that’s what everybody said it’s like, so whatever the comparison doesn’t matter to me because it doesn’t matter. Mesmer skin is still a charges based defense ability in a game where you don’t put charges based defense abilities in.

A tank ability is supposed to tank. If I can’t do tank things with a “tank ability” then it’s not a good tank ability. That 28 charges was with an Arbitrations 300% power strength bonus. You can’t expect me to believe that less charges are going to do any better.

I never said I had trouble with Revenant. I mean unless you count all the times I’ve been infuriated by his terrible design.

I have acknowledged every video shown to me. And the conclusion was “You shouldn’t have to wait 5 hours in a mission for your Warframe to become relevant”. And now we don’t have to as damage abilities scale much much further than they have in the past. Making Revenants endurance run niche redundant.

Edited April 14, 2020 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[Nichivo]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I never said Reave spamming involved situational awareness. I said you’re mistaking spamming Reave for having situational awareness. Because what I’ve gathered from Revenant players is that they sit there and say “MeSmEr SkIn Is BeSt TaNk AbIlItY”, and yet the gameplay videos they share of them is them spamming Reave, which grant invulnerability and prevents Mesmer charges from being lost. So yeah hard to take a claim like that seriously when they aren’t even tanking with the ability they’re defending.

I play every frame in the game including Rev. I do not know why you can not understand this, but I never SPAM! Ever!  Why keep trying to put words in others mouths? You do not like Rev. Fine! Your opinion does not make the frame bad. My opinion does not make the frame good. I'm just saying I have no issues using Rev in any game content even solo.

In fact since coming back, I have been soloing Railjack. No issues. Haven't failed any Railjack missions yet, and frankly think all the whiners about it being hard are just complainers. You want difficult find an arcade, and beat Contra.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, Nichivo said:

Your opinion does not make the frame bad.

That is correct.

Revenant being a bad frame makes Revenant bad.

[Nichivo]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

 

Revenant being a bad frame makes Revenant bad.

I  do not have the patience to explain, how blatantly ignorant that sounds.😜 LOL!

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 minute ago, Nichivo said:

I  do not have the patience to explain, how blatantly ignorant that sounds.😜 LOL!

What do you mean? It’s says right here on the charts that he’s a bad frame. You don’t argue with the charts.

[Pizzarugi]

Okay, I'm only going to quote a select few snippets of your post since you keep repeating the same issue I have responded twice now:

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

Sorry, nothing you've said so far justifies your reasoning that Revenant's skill kit should be burned to the ground and rebuilt beyond the fact it doesn't fit his theme as an eidolon frame. I want to repeat that I can understand your reasoning why it doesn't make sense compared to the eidolons we fight in the plains which he is based on. However, the solution to this problem isn't to just bin the kit and start again. Rework the frame to be more eidolon theme, but move the skill kit to a new frame that would be more thematically fitting for it.

Now with that said...

30 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Well if I learned anything from Rev mains it’s that they spam tf out of Reave, pretty much preventing any instances of damage. So my only assumption is you are doing the same.

You vastly underestimate Mesmer Skin if you think the only way to mitigate damage is to spam Reave, or you outright refuse to increase power strength for whatever reason to boost charge count. In almost all missions I've run as Revenant, I only limit Reave to killing heavy enemies like Bombards or eximus enemies, and I still complete the mission with the least amount of damage received compared to the rest of the team. The only time I do worse in that scenario is if I have other teammates like Rhino running the Iron Skin augment that lets him cancel and recast.

You, again, have nothing to justify your reasoning beyond opinion.

30 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Danse is still a press 4 to win ability no matter how you describe it. You press 4, ability activated, enemies die. No other input required.

And yet if it was a press-4-to-win ability, he'd be as popular as the other press-4-to-win frames, but he isn't. It's not because the skill is bad, but unlike press-4-to-win abilities, its limited in several aspects that makes it non-ideal.

30 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Yes there’s a good way to do one shots. Revenants is just an example of the worst way to do it. Which is making it completely impractical for regular gameplay.

What do you consider to be "regular gameplay"? That doesn't make any sense. The whole point of this game is to kill enemies and complete objectives. That's regular gameplay and Revenant satisfies that requirement.

30 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I shouldn’t have to rely on band aid mods to fix an issue with a frame that shouldn’t be an issue to begin with. Literally none of his abilities have justification for why they’re so slow.

This is a "you" problem, not the frame. Slow cast speed is not unique to him. There's plenty of others which benefit from cast speed mods, but you don't give them the same flak as you do Revenant. Why is that? Is it because you personally don't like the frame as you have made clear in several posts here and you're looking for the most minuscule reasons to not like him?

30 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Objectively speak Danse Macabre is Revenants best ability. It gives the best performance with the least amount of effort.

That, again, says more about you than the frame. You ignore the more skill-intensive abilities in favor of pressing one button to make your problems go away. That's fine, but it's your opinion. Your opinion is not justification to demand Revenant's entire kit be binned.

30 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Memser Skin stuns enemies. So it’s constantly reducing the number of enemies shooting at Revenant. And Danses  scaling damage reduces at a very rapid rate, so it needs consistent damage to be maintained. Mesmer skin actively prevents consistent damage from being obtained.

Danse already deals decent enough damage on its own without needing to be improved drastically by receiving damage while using Mesmer Skin. It's a quick burst of extra damage which only scales higher as enemy level increases. Do you really need it to be higher?

30 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You can’t just write off literal ability conflicts and anti synergies as “oh well it’s all subjective”. No this is literal bad design and to no admit is is insane.

If my previous response didn’t convince you I’ll hit you with the coldest hardest fact possible.

REVENANT IS TRASH!

Once again, this is all based on your opinion. It's clear you don't like Revenant, and that's fine. However, there's still no reason to throw him or his abilities into the garbage because you just don't like them. I'm sorry, but that's not how it works.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Pizzarugi

[Nichivo]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

What do you mean? It’s says right here on the charts that he’s a bad frame. You don’t argue with the charts.

Link to a chart that is not someone elses failed opinion on Rev being good, or bad would be nice. Well?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

22 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Okay, I'm only going to quote a select few snippets of your post since you keep repeating the same issue I have responded twice now:

Now with that said...

You vastly underestimate Mesmer Skin if you think the only way to mitigate damage is to spam Reave, or you outright refuse to increase power strength for whatever reason to boost charge count. In almost all missions I've run as Revenant, I only limit Reave to killing heavy enemies like Bombards or eximus enemies, and I still complete the mission with the least amount of damage received compared to the rest of the team. The only time I do worse in that scenario is if I have other teammates like Rhino running the Iron Skin augment that lets him cancel and recast.

You, again, have nothing to justify your reasoning beyond opinion.

And yet if it was a press-4-to-win ability, he'd be as popular as the other press-4-to-win frames, but he isn't. It's not because the skill is bad, but unlike press-4-to-win abilities, its limited in several aspects that makes it non-ideal.

What do you consider to be "regular gameplay"? That doesn't make any sense.

This is a "you" problem, not the frame. There's plenty of others which benefit from cast speed mods, but you don't give them the same flak as you do Revenant. Why is that? Is it because you personally don't like the frame as you have made clear in several posts here and you're looking for the most minuscule reasons to not like him?

That, again, says more about you than the frame. You ignore the more skill-intensive abilities in favor of pressing one button to make your problems go away. That's fine, but it's your opinion. Your opinion is not justification to demand Revenant's entire kit be binned.

Danse already deals decent enough damage on its own without needing to be improved drastically by receiving damage while using Mesmer Skin. It's a quick burst of extra damage which only scales higher as enemy level increases. Do you really need it to be higher?

Once again, this is all based on your opinion. It's clear you don't like Revenant, and that's fine. However, there's still no reason to throw him or his abilities into the garbage because you just don't like them. I'm sorry, but that's not how it works.

I have like 15 charges on my build on Revenant. I have him built exclusively for power strength.

Honestly, it’s speaks more to the power of a tank frame when they take the most damage and never went down. I mean I had and MR3 Ember in my Scarlet Spear ground run and they took the least amount of damage. But you don’t see me claiming she’s the best tank frame. Because the fact of the matter is that they had so low health it didn’t take much damage to down them.

You’re not getting that low damage taken from you “amazing tanking abilities”. You’re just cheating the system with damage negation.

Well Revenant has to actually be good in order to be popular. Yes, you walked into that one.

Regular gameplay....about level 1 to 150, give or take. It’s overkill if you’re using a one shot on an enemy you can just shoot dead. There is no reason to ever need to use Revenant within and beyond that level range. But hey atleast I actually gave you numbers. Most of the people on your side will just be like “oh but he can kill high levels” and never give an actual range of what they’re talking about.

So Reave having a cast animation so long he can be shot before going into the dash is a me problem? Last I checked it was meant to be an escape ability. Pretty crumby escape ability if you can get killed trying to use it.

But why use these “skill intensive abilities” when pressing one button and moving around is going to be the better option. See no real benefit to wasting energy enthralling an enemy that my squad mates going to shoot dead before I can Reave it.

Yes Danse deals good damage, but it has the ability to scale infinitely, effectively making it a better option than the one shot gimmick in these level infinite game sessions you Rev defenders prattle on about. If it could actually take proper advantage of it. But you know. Mesmer just HAS to be there apparently.

Revenant isn’t bad because I hate him with the burning fury of 10 million suns. I hate him with the burning fury of 10 million suns because he is bad.

Edited April 14, 2020 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

18 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

Link to a chart that is not someone elses failed opinion on Rev being good, or bad would be nice. Well?

I’m actually on mobile. I have never been able to link any kind of photograph. Regardless the results are always the same.
Revenant = trash.

[Pizzarugi]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Honestly, it’s speaks more to the power of a tank frame when they take the most damage and never went down. [...]

You’re not getting that low damage taken from you “amazing tanking abilities”. You’re just cheating the system with damage negation.

That's kind of what tank frames are supposed to do, so I don't see what the problem is here. Not every frame has to be like Nidus or Inaros to be considered a tank.

8 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Well Revenant has to actually be good in order to be popular. Yes, you walked into that one.

Saryn, Mesa, Volt, and Equinox aren't good frames either, but they're popular because their 4 hard carries them through the game. Their ability to clear rooms of enemies with one button is what makes them popular. The vast majority of missions where I had them as teammates, they all lean hard on their one gimmick to win the mission. Revenant takes more effort than just pressing one button, making him not as popular.

13 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Regular gameplay....about level 1 to 150, give or take. It’s overkill if you’re using a one shot on an enemy you can just shoot dead. There is no reason to ever need to use Revenant within and beyond that level range. But hey atleast I actually gave you numbers. Most of the people on your side will just be like “oh but he can kill high levels” and never give an actual range of what they’re talking about.

The game officially recognizes enemy level as high as 100. There's no incentive to do endurance runs for anything higher. Sorties, kuva floods, and R5 liches go as high as level 100, but the first two are gated behind 24 hour and 1 hour access respectively. Your average mission is going to be level 1-60.

This, however, isn't relevant to what is considered "regular gameplay". Regular enemy levels maybe, but it's not relevant to the point of the game which is an objective-based horde shooter.

19 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

So Reave having a cast animation so long he can be shot before going into the dash is a me problem? Last I checked it was meant to be an escape ability. Pretty crumby escape ability if you can get killed trying to use it.

It's not meant to be used as an escape ability. It literally deals a percent of the enemy's health when you touch them with it, multiplied several times if they're enthralled and also returns Mesmer Skin charges. It's primary function is to enthrall enemies and rip huge chunks of life out of them or 1shot them if you have a high enough strength. You CAN use it as an escape ability, but that is absolutely not its primary function.

22 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

But why use these “skill intensive abilities” when pressing one button and moving around is going to be the better option. See no real benefit to wasting energy enthralling an enemy that my squad mates going to shoot dead before I can Reave it.

1. The ability is very limited and you'd be better served using a gun or Reave.

2 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Danse has limited range and limited damage which can be bypassed if you hate having energy and want to have it all gone, and it's only effective against enemies who are on the same Y Axis as the player.

2.

2 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

So the problem is that teammates kill thralls. Cool. I agree and think that's a problem. How about we suggest DE fixes that so teammates don't kill Revenant's minions instead of nuking his kit from orbit?

Are you ignoring things I have said multiple times?

26 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Yes Danse deals good damage, but it has the ability to scale infinitely, effectively making it a better option than the one shot gimmick in these level infinite game sessions you Rev defenders prattle on about. If it could actually take proper advantage of it. But you know. Mesmer just HAS to be there apparently.

Reave is good enough for infinite scaling damage, Revenant doesn't need a second one.

Also:

Spoiler

 

In the video hidden in spoilers, Revenant is 190 minutes into a void survival mission and is fighting level 1700 enemies. There is nothing shown that says he couldn't keep going further than that.

[Nichivo]

28 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’m actually on mobile. I have never been able to link any kind of photograph. Regardless the results are always the same.
Revenant = trash.

Results you cannot supply are pointless... I own the Eiffel Tower! I can't supply the deed right now, but take my word as I have always owned the Eiffel Tower. LOL😈😜

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

I say DE should double down on the Sentient Eidolon theme. The vampiric aspects in his kit conflict with the Eidolon theme, so the best way to handle it is by making the proper adjustments. Sentients have yet to demonstrate any capability to mind control their targets, and unlike Nyx, you can't buff your thrall to deal any significant damage. Issues with AI aside, this ability doesn't provide much of an advantage, it has to go. Mesmer Skin has a solid foundation, but needs refinement. A charge-based ability like this does not compare to the likes of Iron Skin, Scarab Swarm, and passives like Atlas' & Nidus'. Those provide a decent amount of defensive utility in many scenarios, Mesmer Skin suffers majorly in large group engagements. A Sentient tanking ability that doesn't take advantage of the innate Adaptation that Sentients possess is a gross oversight. Adaptation itself is a superior alternative to putting enemies to sleep when getting hit, something no Sentient has demonstrated in the game to this very day. Reave, while having mobility in conjunction with Danse Macabre, severely lacks damage. While leeching health is relatively beneficial, Reave would also benefit from having a more scaled variant of the Vomvalyst ghost rush, dealing a decent amount of damage when needed. I prefer having the ghostly apparition of Revenant charging forth into the fray instead of some "scary" mist cloud. Danse Macabre is the most practical ability in Revenant's entire kit. It takes a preexisting ability we've seen the Gantulyst Eidolon use (That being Star Prism), and it's extremely effective against all the factions we've faced. If anything, Danse Macabre is the only ability that doesn't require major changes to make it feel more cohesive.

If worse comes to worse, DE can always make a vampire Warframe. I was looking forward to an actual playable Sentient Warframe with abilities reminiscent of the foes we've encountered, but what we got was discount Dracula without the bloodletting. If anything, Garuda nailed the theme of vampirism better than Revenant ever could. So yes, we need to flesh out the Eidolon in this guy.

[m0b1us1]

Revenant needs... a lot... I think the issue was due to DE deciding to throw in 2 different themes and didn't really think about his abilities or passive.

His kit as a lot of synergies, but also anti-synergies. His passive of "aoe knockdown when shields are depleted" is meh, but also completely useless because his 2 blocks all damage. His 3 can heal him, but again, if you take no damage, what good is healing? His 1 is really clunky to use, his 2 has a weird wind up time that before shield gating would leave you vulnerable, his 3 has a odd wind up time that makes it feel clunky but not when using your 4, your 4 consumes a huge amount of energy and only lets you move and use 3. Also your 4 deals more damage if you take damage, but rapidly decreases so its extremely situational for you to benefit from that. The hit box of 4 is all sorts of weird, is limiting to use, and does not deal much damage compared to other similar abilities.

His passive needs to be changed, his 1 needs to be changed, his 2 needs to be changed to better work with his kit, his 3 at the very least needs that weird wind up removed when not using 4, and his 4 needs to be changed. With mesa at the very least you feel in control of your destructive power. Revenant? You sit there and watch him spin around... and watch how lasers sometimes hit, but other times completely miss...

Though sadly, I think DE is too busy with remaking mobile defense missions then nerfing frames who are good at mobile defense.

Edited April 15, 2020 by m0b1us1

[nslay]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I have acknowledged every video shown to me. And the conclusion was “You shouldn’t have to wait 5 hours in a mission for your Warframe to become relevant”. And now we don’t have to as damage abilities scale much much further than they have in the past. Making Revenants endurance run niche redundant.

OK.

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

A tank ability is supposed to tank. If I can’t do tank things with a “tank ability” then it’s not a good tank ability. That 28 charges was with an Arbitrations 300% power strength bonus. You can’t expect me to believe that less charges are going to do any better.

Right. You acknowledged that 3 hour endurance run video where the dude was tanking damage from level 1200 Corrupted Bombards like it was nothing (while he was using a dance emote!). He also wasn't losing his 14 charges or so in seconds. And yes, you had trouble with Revenant. You didn't know how to play him! It's that simple. And you base your claims about Mesmer Skin on your inexperience with Revenant. I'm telling you man... every time you mention trouble with 28 Mesmer Skin charges, it does not reflect well on your experience with Revenant to actual Revenant players.

Also those examples I listed aren't exclusive to you.

[Legeno]

You agree it's a big issue or not, but the fact that Revenant doesn't match his Sentient theme is weird, It stroke me when I played until level 30 for MR, to a point I said myself "wait a minute, how the #*!% is this beardy ghostly weird-hat dude Sentient related ?", in a game where all Warframe have a theme that is easy to identify, Revenant's one is blurry. His thrall gimmick is just not Sentient at all, even though Sentients can provides more than enough inspiration for a 100% kit on this theme, and even looks like deja vu of Nyx. I'm not against a complete rework to match this theme, either the Sentient theme or the "revenant" theme.

This said, I'm not for throwing away all his kit, that is not that badly designed, but just isn't on the right Warframe. Imagine Mesa with the Wisp kit. That's what Revenant is, but whatever, considering throwing away Revenant's kit is not a priority for DE, that's not the biggest problem of Revenant.

His Thralls are almost useless by themselves, the best use I found for them is to CC, but I'm not against a slight damage buff to enthralled enemies. And don't make them THAT easy to kill for allies that kill them before even realizing the enemy was under Revenant's control.

Mesmer Skin has a good effect, but against large groups of enemies it doesn't match others defensives abilities, and Revenant is not that tough beside his Shield. Add damage reduction, Armor buff, short invincibility between each charges ... Whatever, something to make this ability relevant.

Reaver is quite good actually, I don't think this ability needs change.

But Danse Macabre, oh boy, that's exactly the kind of ability Warframe doesn't need : brain dead nuke ability. I don't have any problem with ability that deals a lot of damage, DPS frames are okay, but as long as it needs at least 2 neurons to be used. This ability is just a big red button for noobs that said "HEY PUSH ME TO KILL THE ENTIRE MAP WITHOUT AIMING", I'm against the very principle of abilities that can kill anything in a 360° radius at such long range, and Danse Macabre is for me the worst example of this kind of ability, even beside Peacemakers, at least Peacemakers need a little aiming (yeah, aiming with a screen-large reticle, but still aiming that don't kill things in you back), without the augment Mesa can't move, she can't use others abilities and even the range is not even close of Danse Macabre. The fact that Revenant can kill S#&$ with this ability only on the same Y-axis doesn't matter, in Warframe, situation where you have to fight on more than 2 levels are unusuals, at worst you will kill S#&$s on a level, then jump and reactivate your ability to kill S#&$s at the other level. And the joke is that even though this is the worst Revenant ability in my opinion, it's also the only one that is clearly Sentient related.

That's my "tired idiot who's losing too much time on a forum at 4:30 AM" idea to rework this ability : casting it do the same thing as now, making Revenant spin around like an idiot with lasers, but weaker, way weaker, and at half the actual range (don't worry, 50 meters is more than enough), but with the same adaptability on damages, a high status chance, and not a big energy consumption. In exchange, when the player click, the lasers join into one big laser that deals a lot of damages (why not even more than the actual Danse Macabre) with the same adaptability, but with the need to actually aim at something, and that increase a lot the energy loss. This way, Revenant still viable as a DPS, but his laser don't kill that easily threats, asking the player to actually focus on some target and be careful with some threats.