Could Nightwave Reward me for playing what I want to play?

[Loveframe]

I like the overall concept of Nightwave, but I really wish I could be rewarded (earn pts/credits) for doing the things I love, rather than being forced into specific activities each weak that may or may not be something I'm interested in.

Example.

I love Relic cracking. But since Nightwave has been out I stopped doing this activity on the daily unless it comes up in the weekly as a specific open X relics or can be completed when doing the complete 3 missions of type X.

Someone not me hates Relic cracking. But since Nightwave has been out they feel forced to do this as it comes up as their weekly and they do it begrudgingly before they can get back to what they love (anything else).

 

Solution Suggestion:

• Nightwave should reward players for playing the game / doing activities in the game.
  • Each day you gain pts toward your credit tiers.
    • Example: Openeing relics without a bonus would only reward 50 pts per relic opened.
      • Missions Completed (3 Sabotage, 30min Survival, etc)
      • Activities Completed in Said Missions (ie: Kill X with Toxin dmg)
  • Each week there is a special added bonus for completing certain mission types.
    • These are the underplayed mission nodes/types that you want to try to engage players back into.
    • Example: Open X relics this week for an extra 1k pts.
• Each week has a pt/tier cap (This would be equal to what it is today (43k pts?)

Expected Outcome:

• Players can do what they love, and continue to do so and earn pts towards tiers and credit rewards
• Players who want to maximize their rewards can continue to focus on tasks with the highest bonuses
• Both groups can cap their pts each week doing what they want to do.

[Marine027]

But DE wants us how they want us to play to stretch game time for there money giving overlords! It is only for our best right?

 

Nightwave is a poor excuse of a battle pass, something Warframe not needed, Alerts could had stayed alongside aswell While they not even are able to keep the thing itself up and as always wanted ot much at once and now stuck with another system that needs rework but will be abandoned atleast after season 3 i can promise.

As annyoing Alerts could get, you got the reward after one mission you aimed for, now its a chore for a few credits that are not enough to buy one item except Nitain from it. While those in need of Nitain can't get more right now, while ghouls and hive caches give them also it is way to low to be farmable.

Nightwave needs to much attention as a system, extra lore and sequences on top of the so great voice actor for Nora, another Lotus wananbe no one asked for and is just as or even more annyoing the Lotus and Ordis together.

 

DE, stop introducing and rework your stuff oyu have, new content means nothing if new players get annoyed by older stuff that not works not able ot get to the new content at all or loosing the fun till then. Older players not happy with new content keep being buggy and even more grindier then before also.

Fix Nightwave, mix it with Alerts, fix your old content and stop abandon things.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

3 hours ago, Marine027 said:

But DE wants us how they want us to play to stretch game time for there money giving overlords! It is only for our best right?

 

Nightwave is a poor excuse of a battle pass, something Warframe not needed, Alerts could had stayed alongside aswell While they not even are able to keep the thing itself up and as always wanted ot much at once and now stuck with another system that needs rework but will be abandoned atleast after season 3 i can promise.

As annyoing Alerts could get, you got the reward after one mission you aimed for, now its a chore for a few credits that are not enough to buy one item except Nitain from it. While those in need of Nitain can't get more right now, while ghouls and hive caches give them also it is way to low to be farmable.

Nightwave needs to much attention as a system, extra lore and sequences on top of the so great voice actor for Nora, another Lotus wananbe no one asked for and is just as or even more annyoing the Lotus and Ordis together.

 

DE, stop introducing and rework your stuff oyu have, new content means nothing if new players get annoyed by older stuff that not works not able ot get to the new content at all or loosing the fun till then. Older players not happy with new content keep being buggy and even more grindier then before also.

Fix Nightwave, mix it with Alerts, fix your old content and stop abandon things.

This again...as players are also saying how they have everything already. This is getting old. Why didn't you just get the la cost nitain during the extended session we have now? We were overloaded with credits and rewards. 

[Marine027]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb (PS4)GEN-Son_17:

This again...as players are also saying how they have everything already. This is getting old. Why didn't you just get the la cost nitain during the extended session we have now? We were overloaded with credits and rewards. 

Yes but how should new players know that, we both know Warframe is very poor explainign anything outsdie wiki or the forum, not every player will read every hotfix, patchnote or wiki entry.

It is easy to say you should had just goten it now instead of "wasting" your credits without people knowign that the intermisisons will be that long or having a cap due season 3 is dealyed way to long?

I am both talking for older and newer players here that the system is way to limited and still ask why it at least not could exist alongside alerts?

Gift of the Lotus people can also miss after all besides longer duration but it is the exact same still against a 30 minutes alert that comes back every few days.

People will not knwo better if the game is that poorly designed UI wise and or not explaining anything at all as said, people see Nitain as any resource, how should one know that it is limited like that if it is in the same shop as Kuva which you can farm endlessly. People simply see it and pull conclusions.

[Steel_Rook]

I honestly despise Nightwave, for this precise reason. Sure, Season 2 and this Intermission have been less bad than Season 1, but you know what I love the most about this Intermission? I'm capped out at 30+60, so I don't have to do it any more. I get to play the content I like without missing out on the Season Pass. I'm right there with the OP. I'd much rather have a Season Pass which rewarded me for playing whatever content I happen to like, rather than forcing me into ostensibly Steam Achievements every week. It's honestly kind of odd that even games with actual paid Season Passes don't do that. You know what Desitny 2 required me to do in order to progress in their Season Pass? Earn XP. Most every quest there gave XP. You know what The Division 2 required me in order to progress in their Season Pass? Earn XP. Literally everything in that game gives XP.

And yet here we are in Warframe, with a free Season Pass which still manages to frustrate me more than the ones that cost me $10 and exist pretty much just to suck more money out of me. Here we are in Warframe with the game constantly hassling us to go fish, or go mine, or go run Profit-Taker raids, or go waste 30 minutes of my life playing defence - my least favourite game mode by far. For whatever reason, DE seem deathly afraid of letting their players pick what they play, afraid of losing control of how we spend our time. Because my god! I might actually run legacy content and have some fun if you would #*!%ING LET ME. Nope! Have to go tranq animals in Orb Vallis, whether I enjoy that or not.

And yes, I'm aware that nobody's putting a gun to my head and forcing me to do that. And you know what? Now that I've capped out Nightwave and literally can't get any more rewards out of it, I'm not doing that. Because I wouldn't play Nightwave if it weren't designed to make me feel like I had to. DE could have tied Nightwave Standing to something universal, like Affinity Gain or missions complete or some other stat. Instead, they went with constant achievements - the exact things I stopped playing Destiny over.

[TheLexiConArtist]

The point of Nightwave is to give you a nudge into expanding your narrowed horizons. This is literally what it is for.

Not cracking relics because there's no current task for it is a You Problem. Not slotting an Ayatan is less of a You Problem since it's a bit more chance-based to replenish, but it's also.. just decoration, so nothing really lost.

 

I've done many runs of ESO and I'm sick of the rubbish reward tables, never seeing the shiny stuff I want for my egregiously pigeonholed efforts. So I'm disinclined to do them, generally, if I could be busy elsewhere.
But, oh look, Nightwave's got an Onslaught task this week! So I go and do a run to handle that task, and I get one more pull of that futile slot machine down.
It's the little nudge of motivation I need, the excuse to go redo that bit of content.

Same for everything else.
Silver grove specter? I have all the drops, but it's not hard to go dump another jar of piss Sunrise Apothic and then I remember that scanning plants is a thing, so I might actually do that a few times instead of ignoring it.
Profit Taker? Again, got mods, don't need more standing, probably don't need credits (especially if I stopped donating millions to Drusus every time), but sure, I'll dust off my solo loadout and take the crazy spider lady down again.
Index? Still don't need credits. Do the thing.

And so on.

[hix3r]

4 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Silver grove specter? I have all the drops, but it's not hard to go dump another jar of piss Sunrise Apothic...
Profit Taker? Again, got mods, don't need more standing, probably don't need credits (especially if I stopped donating millions to Drusus every time), but sure, I'll dust off my solo loadout..
Index? Still don't need credits. Do the thing.

And so on.

You don't see a problem with that? You are essentially not doing the activity you want to in the game but pushed to do content you don't necessarily enjoy or have any use for... You might not hate it, you might just be indifferent to it but I mean just why in the first place is this in any way necessary? Why is it necessary to force players back into content they abandoned for any reason?

This is my problem with Nightwave, it is a system designed on the principle of "cure the symptoms, instead of the disease"...

Why was Nightwave created by DE:

• They see a problem in that the starchart and a lot of older content is empty most of the time, nobody running Venus - Mobile Defense missions, nobody running Invasion missions for those Detonite Capsules, this makes it seem like the game is empty for never players going through those - so they want to push people into that content again.
• Many new players never even heard of some of the content in this game because it is practically hidden if you weren't around when it got released or heard about it somewhere, like enemy/plant scanning, Phorid spawn missions...
• They see a problem in that end-game players don't really see a reason to log in every day, after finishing new content patches, they log off for 2 months.

Genius idea ==> Do 3 Mobile Defense Missions! Do 9 Invasion missions! Do Profit Taker! Capture Hydrolyst! Survive for 30 minutes in Kuva Survival! Help Clem! On a Daily/Weekly timer, so you can't front-load and rush through it!

But this is only attacking the symptoms... Why are people not doing those content islands anymore? They dislike the gamplay of those? They see no benefit in doing those? They only cared for some specific reward? Why? Maybe they farmed it for months and got burned out...

I farmed all the Xiphos landing craft blueprints in game from the Sabotage mission caches, a single blueprint (you need 3) took me on average 110-150 Sabotage missions with all the caches found, took me several months... so I am less than excited when Nightwave pops up the Find 3 caches in Sabotage missions...

Other gameplay options exist of attacking these core problems instead of just forcing people to do them for points, especially as most usually do the Nightwave requirements SOLO, as it's faster/less annoying, just like you with the Profi Taker... and when all is done, people STILL don't like or want to do those missions they just wanted the Nightwave crap. This is again evidenced by how people just don't do Nightwave after they got the rewards.

One example, I don't mind the "Open X relics" Nightwave that much, although I have every Prime stuff in the game, I can still get some parts to sell for plat, or get some Forma blueprints and farm traces all at the same time, Nightwave credits are just a bonus on top of that... it feels very rewarding. Another is the "Kill X enemies" as this happens naturally during any gameplay scenario... Now the "Do 3 Mobile Defense" "Do a lvl 30 Exterminate while undetected" feels like an absolute time waster, I get absolutely nothing but the Nightwave contribution AND waste time.

In the game the Nightwave system accomplished the following:

• Made players hate the system when it forces them to do content they actually don't like in the game, but they have to do it to get it over with or they have to wait a week for more opportunities to gain points
• The starchart remained empty as most prefer to quickly do these as SOLO and get it over with
• New players feel like they are missing out as they often CAN'T do the harder challenges alone.. you get to see a bunch of new players during the weekends spamming in recruiting chat, begging someone to take them for a Hydrolyst run, or kill Profit Taker for them, or do the lvl 30 Exterminate mission while undetected for them etc.
• Nightwave is basically ignored once people got the rewards from it, except the challenges players naturally complete while playing the game. So it doesn't actually accomplish anything long term in revitalizing old content.

While yes, sometimes the challenges are "whatever, might as well do that", but a lot require you to actively divert your attention to complete, you can't just complete it while playing the game however you want to, like the "Exterminate mission over lvl 30 while undetected." or my most hated "Do 5 bounties in the Orb Vallis or Plains" it just takes so damn long...

There is nothing wrong with nudging players towards content they left behind for some reason, but that content NEEDS to be worthwhile, solid and rewarding in itself, basically people "would do it anyway, so might as well". This is impossible to cherry pick by the developers, player preferences are too diverse, so other games just designate XP or designate general milestones you can achieve while playing anything (like Kill X enemies) and you choose the content in the game.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 hours ago, hix3r said:

You don't see a problem with that? You are essentially not doing the activity you want to in the game but pushed to do content you don't necessarily enjoy or have any use for... You might not hate it, you might just be indifferent to it but I mean just why in the first place is this in any way necessary? Why is it necessary to force players back into content they abandoned for any reason?

 

But this is only attacking the symptoms... Why are people not doing those content islands anymore? They dislike the gamplay of those? They see no benefit in doing those? They only cared for some specific reward? Why? Maybe they farmed it for months and got burned out...

I farmed all the Xiphos landing craft blueprints in game from the Sabotage mission caches, a single blueprint (you need 3) took me on average 110-150 Sabotage missions with all the caches found, took me several months... so I am less than excited when Nightwave pops up the Find 3 caches in Sabotage missions...

 

One example, I don't mind the "Open X relics" Nightwave that much, although I have every Prime stuff in the game, I can still get some parts to sell for plat, or get some Forma blueprints and farm traces all at the same time, Nightwave credits are just a bonus on top of that... it feels very rewarding. Another is the "Kill X enemies" as this happens naturally during any gameplay scenario... Now the "Do 3 Mobile Defense" "Do a lvl 30 Exterminate while undetected" feels like an absolute time waster, I get absolutely nothing but the Nightwave contribution AND waste time.

 

There is nothing wrong with nudging players towards content they left behind for some reason, but that content NEEDS to be worthwhile, solid and rewarding in itself, basically people "would do it anyway, so might as well". This is impossible to cherry pick by the developers, player preferences are too diverse, so other games just designate XP or designate general milestones you can achieve while playing anything (like Kill X enemies) and you choose the content in the game.

I don't see a problem.

Why are us old and creaky players not doing those content islands any more? They did their tour of duty and no longer have any incentive to dip their toes in. Nightwave tasks provide an incentive. Simple enough. Very few things are truly 'evergreen' rewards when you play long enough. For example, I personally couldn't care less about Orokin Reactors, since I have about 90 spares and not a frequent influx of things requiring them. I'm the minority to be sure, but that valued prize is still not evergreen. So, instead of trying to bloat out the native tables with new stuff and diluting the drops altogether, we have a complete separation of Nightwave, where you get your incentives to earn loot and Creds completely agnostic of the missions themselves.

Funny you should mention the Xiphos, as I farmed that out for another Nightwave-related reason besides the tasks - I got my runs down to the 5 minute mark and killed two birds with one stone, hard-grinding the old Wolf of Saturn Six. Abysmal spawn rate, meet abysmal drop rate - by the time I've gotten 3 caches and I'm ready to extract, the time limit for potential assassin spawns is up and I knew I'd had my roll of the dice. _{And then they added the damned Mask into his drop tables much later along and I had to hard-farm him all over again, big unfortunate.}

New players looking at Nightwave get nudged towards content - "Oh, what's that task?" - and since they've got things to accumulate from everywhere, they get bonus progression on top of what they'd eventually have to be getting around to sooner or later.
Old players get the "Oh, I remember that stuff" view and revisit something they might have not even considered for years otherwise. There's no imperative need to hit absolutely every task on the list, especially as the Nightwave cycles run longer than originally intended.

Also, even if it's 'forcing' people into those missions, that still means they run it, and that can bring back the exact feedback you want DE to hear. Isn't that an improvement in itself, rather than leaving everything 'out of sight, out of mind' for most of the old hands who actually give feedback?

Edited April 18, 2020 by TheLexiConArtist

[hix3r]

16 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Why are us old and creaky players not doing those content islands any more? They did their tour of duty and no longer have any incentive to dip their toes in. Nightwave tasks provide an incentive.

In my opinion Nightwave "points" shouldn't be the only incentive as that makes it feel like "work", like you are just grinding out the Nightwave cap. Look at other games with the battle-pass system is the battlepass progression the main incentive to play? Are people playing just to grind out their battlepass? I think rarely, they play what they enjoy, the battlepass only gives an outside framework, a "progression tracker", that you can ignore for most of the time and just play the game and when you are close to unlocking some milestone reward, maybe put in an extra 1-2 hours of playtime to unlock that but you are still doing what you love doing in the game.

Again I haven't got anything against the parts of Nightwave that work like this, like Kill X enemies, Open X lockboxes, Bullet jump X times, Loot X rare mods, these happen everywhere, and require minimal diversion and it's cool sometimes checking your progress during the week for those.

16 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

New players looking at Nightwave get nudged towards content - "Oh, what's that task?" - and since they've got things to accumulate from everywhere, they get bonus progression on top of what they'd eventually have to be getting around to sooner or later.

YES, this is exactly the feeling what I would want for ALL players in the Nightwave, doing something that you find rewarding in the game, that you need out of the game and get bonus progression on top of it, win-win. But for older players the only thing some challenges provide is just the Nightwave points, everything else is useless from those 9 Invasion missions for example and feels like a waste of playtime for the player, when they could have been doing X instead.

One example of how some challenges actually hinder gameplay, since Nightwave came I don't socket and sell, just hoard Ayatan Sculptures now, you never know when a "Socket 3 Sculptures" challenge comes up! I also don't actively level up and forma other weapons I would maybe want to try out, but don't actually need right now... better wait for when a "Forma a weapon" challenge comes around! Isn't it backwards that some of these challenges actually stopped me from doing some gameplay things unless absolutely necessary because there might be a challenge for them next week?

Again it's very hard to designate gameplay tasks that hit every players preferences so most other games don't do this...

17 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Old players get the "Oh, I remember that stuff" view and revisit something they might have not even considered for years otherwise. There's no imperative need to hit absolutely every task on the list, especially as the Nightwave cycles run longer than originally intended.

Yeah some players do get that, nostalgia for something they haven't played in years... but many don't. They see these as a hindrance, annoyance, artificial wall, in the way of doing what they like in the game... Again many players HATE fishing and mining so they dislike content that is attached to doing those, so much in fact, that DE removed the Exodia, Magus Arcane crafting from the game. I enjoy fishing and mining in moderation and already had all those crafted BUT I understand others who are really not here for that, so I believe that removing this crafting was a great move by DE!

And while yes, you don't have to complete EVERY task to max out the ranks, you have to do them if you want the rewards sooner. Put yourself into the shoes of someone who just wants the Umbral Forma to finish out his perfect Rhino build or something and play buff in ESO 24/7, he enjoys doing that very much. Well he could wait months and hope that next week some better challenges will come or just bite the bullet and slog through it... This builds resentment towards the system in players which is not a good game design goal. Why implement a system that just makes a good chunk of players despise it every week?

17 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Also, even if it's 'forcing' people into those missions, that still means they run it, and that can bring back the exact feedback you want DE to hear. Isn't that an improvement in itself, rather than leaving everything 'out of sight, out of mind' for most of the old hands who actually give feedback?

Well forcing people to do content they don't enjoy might push them to become so frustrated they blast the forums with negative feedback, that could work... but it is actually meaningless if nothing is done about it... I think there is more feedback on these forums alone than what DE can actually implement in the next 100 years... and yet the old content islands remain untouched or are slowly just removed from the game instead of a meaningful rework (?Raids?, ?Solar Rail Research?). Instead of those new and new content islands are put in instead... So it could in theory work, but in my experience that's not how DE approaches their game.

Here is a much simpler example to bring old players back to older starchart missions, "Tenno alerts", every day, maybe hour a random mission type pops up on your UI, that takes you into a starchart mission of that type that SOMEONE else started in the "Public" game mode, maybe you are just there as a ghost, can't do direct damage just provide buffs, use CC and communicate with the other players, you can't do the mission for them... Your presence around those players gives THEM an affinity or resource boost maybe just 1.2-1.5x so the boosters are not obsolete and the successful completion rewards you with "Sensei tokens" you can exchange for rewards somewhere. Optional, not time limited and a win-win for both.

This is similar to the "Stalker mode" DE showed in past Devstreams where you can become the Stalker and invade in missions, that never got put into the game as it could be used for new player griefing, and most experienced players one-shot the Stalker anyway but on one stream Rebecca invaded an Eidolon hunt in progress and decided to help the team take down the Eidolon instead... I remember how I struggled through Mercury at MR 0 with the MK-1 Braton and no mods... and there are people begging for starchart help in Recruiting, there IS a need for something like this, why couldn't you design a gameplay system around that?

This is just a barebones napkin idea but it uses implemented game mechanics they already showed in the game and people have multiple incentives to do them, right now if you want to help, you don't know who is struggling, unless they scream in Recruiting (and many new players just abandon the game instead) and you don't get anything for helping besides satisfaction, Rubedo, Ferrite, Alloy plates, Ammo Drums?? so you only help when you are bored and often you actually just do the mission instead of them, since you are so much more powerful.

Now ideally this should be a Clan task, getting help from Clan members but not all Clans are great and welcoming for newer players or there are periods when noone is online...

[vomder]

That would make to much sense. We aren't supposed to play the way we want and with the tools given to us. We are supposed to play the way they want. It's also the reason behind many of the "fixes" as well.

[Krenlik]

5 hours ago, hix3r said:

 

Again I haven't got anything against the parts of Nightwave that work like this, like Kill X enemies, Open X lockboxes, Bullet jump X times, Loot X rare mods, these happen everywhere, and require minimal diversion and it's cool sometimes checking your progress during the week for those.

YES, this is exactly the feeling what I would want for ALL players in the Nightwave, doing something that you find rewarding in the game, that you need out of the game and get bonus progression on top of it, win-win. But for older players the only thing some challenges provide is just the Nightwave points, everything else is useless from those 9 Invasion missions for example and feels like a waste of playtime for the player, when they could have been doing X instead.

 

 

 

So, basically you want more rewards for doing exactly nothing different than you normally do?  Am I understanding that right?  Why not just provide a chance of Umbral Forma and Kuva on login, or a bonus special item on mission completion?

 

You don't like Nightwave, then DON"T DO NIGHTWAVE.   There's absolutely nothing stopping you from ignoring Nora entirely if you don't like it.  Crack relics 24/7.   Pretend it's a time before Nora started broadcasting and be happy.

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Krenlik

[Klokwerkaos]

I think some people have a misguided understanding of what nightwave is, why it exists, and who it's for (possibly from not having experienced life without it).

Nightwave is a battle pass, battlepass systems are designed to reward players for regular engagement through unlocks.

It is mostly for, in warframe, vets with literally nothing else to do.  It is also good for newer players to give them some extra goodies and a way to fill in gaps that they may have trouble with.  The only real exception to this is hiding nitain there, which is not newbie friendly, nor is the battle pass, and I've long expressed opinions against this, it should be available more easily through other means, period end of story.  It can still be there, but nobody should "have to" do nightwave to unlock basic frames and weapons and that's really a bad way to do it.

That one exception asside, older folks don't just need to crack relics, as a matter of fact, that's about all we do unless there is an event or content drop, then we do that for 24 hours and finish it before most newer players figured out what it even is because it's not on youtube yet.

This allows DE to do two things, provide us with variety of content touchstones by enticing us with various top tier rewards, and also gets us to play content we would never otherwise touch again.

Do you know how many apothics I used in 7k hours before nightwave started?  Precisely exactly as many as needed to unlock titania, and that's it, never touched it again.

Do you know how often I choose to do a defection mission?  Literally never, even nightwave probably wouldn't get me to do it unless it was a 7k do 1 defection mission.

The point is, it gets us to reconnect with old stuff, which provides variety and incentivises us to do so, it's actually really a well thought out system, and while it had some troubles at launch, and they changed some stuff I don't exactly agree with (primarily removing friends challenges, which A) you can make 1 friend, even if it's just for the challenge in LFG in like 5 seconds, and B) if you don't want to do it so bad, you literally never have to), overall it's in a really good place now and serves it's purpose quite well.

They already reward you when YOU choose, with standard rewards.  If you want the extra rewards you have to do the extra stuff they decide, and that's more than fair.
 

The system you are proposing works against the primary reasons it exists and I for 1, do not support this idea, because it's working as intended.

Do I like doing halls of lua every 5 weeks?  No.  But it's overall good to do it, just so I'm not too rusty and I can say I'm good at all the content available.  I couldn't really say that I was a well rounded player if I had to look up how to do a lua challenge every single time I had to do it, could I?

If you really hate the system though, there is a simple solution, you absolutely do not have to engage and you will miss NOTHING.  I know this because we didn't use to have nightwave, and we didn't get those rewards at all.  At best we got some alerts with some nanospores, woo hoo!  Oh look, it's an alert for my 50,000th atlas alt helmet, hell yeah, I guess?

That's why the old system was replaced with the new.

It really should just have nitain more accessible for newbies, but outside of that it's perfectly fine the way it is since you never have to use it.

But wait!  Vauban is locked there!  I have to do nightwave!?!?!

No, you don't, because you'll unlock vauban just from doing regular stuff you want to do eventually (as you may have noticed you can often accidentally do nightwave stuff without noticing), long before it becomes an issue.  See, Vauban has vauban prime, which is a direct upgrade.  What this means is that regular Vauban is entirely MR fodder, you grind him to 30 and throw him out, end of story.  That means unless Vauban is the one and only thing keeping you from progressing to max MR, you don't need him at all, and you'll accidentally get enough cred for him long before that.



 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Klokwerkaos

[hix3r]

1 hour ago, Krenlik said:

You don't like Nightwave, then DON"T DO NIGHTWAVE.   There's absolutely nothing stopping you from ignoring Nora entirely if you don't like it.  Crack relics 24/7.   Pretend it's a time before Nora started broadcasting and be happy.

Great! I think 80% of the veteran playerbase would happily do that (and they in fact they do that after getting all rewards) IF Nightwave wouldn't present exclusive mods/Umbral Forma (also exclusive armor/decoration) and exclusively Nitain (which you need for Aura Forma crafting for example)... also I don't think DE's intention was to introduce another piece of content that is going to be played just by a fraction of their players again.

1 hour ago, Krenlik said:

So, basically you want more rewards for doing exactly nothing different than you normally do?  Am I understanding that right?  Why not just provide a chance of Umbral Forma and Kuva on login, or a bonus special item on mission completion?

DE wants people to log in every day and have small attainable progress goals every day, so it looks like they have sustainable and long-term content in the game... as their concurrent player numbers start to look like Path of Exile league start player numbers with each patch, big spike at release then big fall a couple weeks later. People don't actually just stay and crack relics 24/7, they check out the new shiny patch content, get bored and wait for the next release. Nightwave is an attempt to bridge those periods, small weekly goals so you have some reason to log in. "Gonna do some of my favourite missions so I cap the Nightwave weekly progress since everything counts" vs. "Gotta go and grind those Orb Vallis bounties I don't want to for Nightwave".. Which is more likely to motivate people to play? This still doesn't address the abandoned content pieces of the game which need to be looked at of course but just forcing people into them is in my opinion not a good "solution".

11 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Nightwave is a battle pass, battlepass systems are designed to reward players for regular engagement through unlocks.

Again other game battlepass systems use "Finished matches" "Gained XP" to measure progression or other non-specific goals to do this. There is plenty of opportunities for that in here, Kill X Ancient Healers, Defeat 5 bosses on the starchart, Kill the nullifier drone of X Nullifier enemies etc. Why is the "Complete a lvl 30 exterminate mission while undetected" necessary, there are only a couple of frames that can even do this properly. Some of the challenges are strange for a battlepass system. They are more like achievements that should unlock Ephemera for example as they originally intended the Ephemera to be gameplay-challenge based. So for example if you complete 10 lvl 30 exterminate missions while undetected on the account you get the Smoke Body Ephemera or something.

18 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

...gets us to play content we would never otherwise touch again.

Do you know how many apothics I used in 7k hours before nightwave started?  Precisely exactly as many as needed to unlock titania, and that's it, never touched it again.

Do you know how often I choose to do a defection mission?  Literally never, even nightwave probably wouldn't get me to do it unless it was a 7k do 1 defection mission.

The point is, it gets us to reconnect with old stuff, which provides variety and incentivises us to do so, it's actually really a well thought out system...

Do I like doing halls of lua every 5 weeks?  No.  But it's overall good to do it, just so I'm not too rusty and I can say I'm good at all the content available.  I couldn't really say that I was a well rounded player if I had to look up how to do a lua challenge every single time I had to do it, could I?

I don't think DE cares if you do Defection missions or Capture missions as long as you play the game... But anyway isn't it more important to address WHY don't you do Defection missions anymore? Because they are S#&$ty gameplay! The dumb defector AI gets stuck on infested tile parts all the time, they move at a snails pace, CC-d, knocked down, pulled away with the "ropes" of the Ancient type enemies and the rewards are absolute trash most get the hell out after they got the Harrow Systems from there. I don't understand how MAKING people do it anyway is supposed to be a good solution...

Same with apothics, scanning plants especially when the Earth day-night cycle prevents you from scanning a plant for the next 3-4 hours is a real pain... again the problem is with the content, how is making people do it anyway supposed to help?

Isn't this completely backwards in how a game should make you want to play the content??? This just makes people dislike those pieces of content more and more...

31 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

If you really hate the system though, there is a simple solution, you absolutely do not have to engage and you will miss NOTHING.  I know this because we didn't use to have nightwave, and we didn't get those rewards at all.

An alternative shop would be great or something you can unlock previous Nightwave exclusive stuff with other gameplay tokens, but as long as Weapon Mods/Umbral Formas/Nitain continue to be exclusively hidden behind Nightwave, you absolutely miss out if you don't do it. Most vets don't bother with the system and bugger off after getting the exclusive rewards so yeah after those you really miss nothing.

[Marine027]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Krenlik:

You don't like Nightwave, then DON"T DO NIGHTWAVE.   There's absolutely nothing stopping you from ignoring Nora entirely if you don't like it.  Crack relics 24/7.   Pretend it's a time before Nora started broadcasting and be happy.

 

vor 59 Minuten schrieb hix3r:

Great! I think 80% of the veteran playerbase would happily do that (and they in fact they do that after getting all rewards) IF Nightwave wouldn't present exclusive mods/Umbral Forma (also exclusive armor/decoration) and exclusively Nitain (which you need for Aura Forma crafting for example)... also I don't think DE's intention was to introduce another piece of content that is going to be played just by a fraction of their players again.

Can only agree with hix3r here.

I mean ignoring something because you not like it is one thing but ignoring it becasue it might not be working right or might have flaws is something else.

I not liek Conlave but i can say it needs a desperate look at, if we ignore a problem DE will ignore it forever, it has to be brought up, it not matters if only a minority palys something or if you not see it as part of the game as example, i also ingore Railajck becasue i not like it and avoid it if i can.

But this not means it is not part of the game as a whole, it exsits and needs a look at, you can't just trow it away like trials, which i never did but til lthne  ithought De normalyl never removes stuff, considerign old mods or so and rewards always coming back in one way or another.

But main point is Nightwave is a problem in itself, the way it works, it forces adn lures you with its rewards and yes you can ingore it but then you have those who literally insult you for not havign this and that, why couldn't alerts exist alongside? Make Nightwave a simple Syndicat you can farm with those weekly and dailys, will still make players play, right? Now you have the situation most not interessted in those extra credits over rank 30 and or have all already still. On top of already forgotten with season 3 will not be here soon and i can promise will be dropped compeltly after season 3, then we will see what they come up next, because i doubt alerts come back.

My main point is ignroign the problem won't fix it iot make it go away, it is part of the game and you can't jsut say i ignore knwing those rewards you can't get otherwise, and it is not like Dog days with jsut skins, that i ignored because i only could laugh, but Nightwave has rwards peopel want and on purpsoe put at the end like Umbra forma, no fixed order or even able to choose from a rank, this thing is purposly made ot bait you and repeat the same boring things over and over, the representation and how it works is garbage and that needs to change and peopel saying to jsut ignore it if you not like it let this game die, if no one says any nothing will ever change.

[Klokwerkaos]

14 hours ago, hix3r said:

An alternative shop would be great or something you can unlock previous Nightwave exclusive stuff with other gameplay tokens, but as long as Weapon Mods/Umbral Formas/Nitain continue to be exclusively hidden behind Nightwave, you absolutely miss out if you don't do it. Most vets don't bother with the system and bugger off after getting the exclusive rewards so yeah after those you really miss nothing.

Weapon mods are not locked.  You can trade for them, it's actually easier than doing nightwave when you consider time investment go bust a relic, you can do that at like MR 0.  Umbral mods are completely unnecessary until the game is completely rebalanced, they add e-peen and nothing else.  If you need an umbral forma to complete any content in the game to C rotation, something is very wrong, if you want to go longer than 1 rotation you can, but you're working against yourself for time efficiency, and you're only doing it for e-peen purposes, there is literally no other reason. 

Do you the difference between 1 shotting an enemy for 10 million damage and 100 million damage?  Nothing.  Umbral forma is absolutely not necessary.  I have plenty.  I've used one and it was entirely unnecessary to do so, because I wanted primed sure footed on my meme unkillable nidus that isn't even primed.  Does it make a difference?  Eh, kinda sorta at about the 2 hour mark in arbitrations, and that's completely unnecessary for anyone to do ever.  For that umbra forma I get a whopping 40% more chance to resist knockdown, which, ironically, is worth a lot more than extra damage.

Nitain does need to be available elsewhere, I've already said that.  The other two don't even remotely count.

[hix3r]

On 2020-04-20 at 1:33 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

Umbral mods are completely unnecessary until the game is completely rebalanced, they add e-peen and nothing else.

Well that's pretty subjective, same could be said for custom armor sets, the niche weapon mods. Notice how we moved from, "you will miss NOTHING from Nightwave" to "you will miss some stuff, but they are completely unnecessary". When did the game start to be about doing just what is completely necessary... Yes there is a difference for some between doing 10 million and 100 million damage, they are enjoying maximizing their build, even if no content requires that. Some people use those builds to do speedruns in the game...

But okay, let's ignore this and pretend for a second these rewards should mean nothing to any player, they are "unnecessary", then we are back to "Don't like nightwave? Don't do it!" mentality... This isn't helpful in solving the issues with the system, it again results in a piece of ignored content that is enjoyed by some and ignored by many, haven't we got a truckload of those? Archwing missions, Conclave, Lunaro, Infested Salvage, the removed Raids...

I want Nightwave to succeed, to keep all newer players and all veterans engaged with the game and take some pressure off the developers when some content takes longer to develop so we can avoid more broken buggy releases...

The issues with Nightwave were brought up as soon as it was released, some of them got addressed, like the Kuva Survival challenge went from 60 min to 30, but there are still elements of the system that just polarizes the playerbase (as even this topic provides a good example) due to dictating specific gameplay elements regardless of preference... and others answer back "just don't do it then"...

The goal of a battlepass is to keep people playing the game... So how about changing the structure a bit? Give multiple "paths", the "slow and steady" for example you could gain the same amount of weekly Nightwave contribution doing general milestones each week, like killing X enemies, doing X bullet jumps etc., these would give Nightwave contribution slower, but you could reach the SAME weekly cap "without actively diverting" your gameplay, or you could do specific gameplay challenges, for larger amounts of Nightwave contribution, so you could reach the weekly cap "in bursts".

You reward both players equally so neither feel they are "missing out" compared to others or feel they are being "forced into content" they don't enjoy and you let players choose if they prefer restrictions or freedom in their gameplay...

[grindbert]

no

[Steel_Rook]

On 2020-04-18 at 10:00 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Why are us old and creaky players not doing those content islands any more? They did their tour of duty and no longer have any incentive to dip their toes in. Nightwave tasks provide an incentive.

How about fun? Fun is an incentive, isn't it? You know why I play Spy missions despite having everything in their reward rotations? Because I enjoy Spy missions. You know why I still run missions on Jupiter even if they're dumb reductive ones like Extermination? Because I like the Jupiter Remastered tileset. You know why I don't do Elite Sanctuary Onslaugh? Because it sucks ass and is the game's most reductive, most numbing activity by a fair margin. Your mileage my vary on what you like and dislike, certainly, but notice what word I haven't used so far - reward. I like being rewarded for playing games, to be sure. However, if my ONLY reason for playing a game is the reward I receive at the end, then this isn't a game and I'm not playing it. No, this is a freelance job and I'm working it. This is why "Warframe is a grindy game" is not an excuse but a statement of a problem - because Warframe's core incentive is that of a job. And I'm sorry, but I already have one of those - and the kind of job which hasn't stopped during Social Distancing, either.

You and your self-described group of players are free to run whatever content you like, but I find your arguments for making the choices you do unconvincing - as in, that same logic would lead ME to severe burnout in fairly short order. Indeed, most of the times I've burned out on Warframe (and it's been A LOT, I play this game very off-and-on) have been when I've forced myself into content I don't enjoy chasing after rewards I want out of it. That's almost entirely the reason I no longer treat Warframe as a F2P title, but rather a standard purchased title with monthly DLCs. Yes, I could get everything for free. If I turn Warframe into a part-time job, then I'll be paid in Prime crap and maybe even Platinum. As I already have a full-time job paying me enough to buy my entertainment, however, I'd rather play what I like and buy my Prime crap with money, instead. I mean, I did that in Payday 2 for four years, I don't see why I couldn't do that here.

Nightwave's central premise is flawed. It was designed to try and get ALL of the players to play ALL of the content, and that's simply not a good idea. No matter the player, no matter how dedicated, there's always going to be content they hate. I hate Sanctuary Onslaught, maybe you hate PvP (boy, imagine Conclave challenges in Nightwave 🙂), maybe other people absolutely hate endurance runs, maybe some hate exploring and so have no Ayatan Sculptures, or Apothics. Maybe some people never run the Index because it's a terrible game mode. For every player, there exists at least one thing (and probably a lot more) that they don't enjoy. Trying to provide incentive for those people to run content they don't enjoy might make them RUN the content, but it won't make them ENJOY it. As a result, you have a bunch of disgruntled players going through the motions of playing content they resent, then start wondering what it was about Warframe that they liked in the first place. Then stuff like Destiny and Division and World of Warcraft and such start seem more attractive. By forcing people into activities they don't like, you burn them out. Simple as that.

 

On 2020-04-18 at 6:04 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

The point of Nightwave is to give you a nudge into expanding your narrowed horizons. This is literally what it is for.

No, that's what Mastery Rank is for. Nightwave is a free Battle Pass. Its goal is to keep people logging in day after day, or at least week after week by threatening us with missing out on rare rewards. Actually, let's cut to the chase - by threatening us to miss out on Umbral Forma. Because it's always Umbral Forma. The costumes and designs and such are neat for collectors and veterans, but the Umbral Forma is the one that drives the most traffic. Nothing about the system indicates that it's intended to "expand my horizon." Certainly not any more so than DE releasing random new weapons and slapping them behind random content, new or old.

Moreover, "expanding my horizon" is not necessarily a good thing. There's this idea that players are "missing out" on your game if they aren't playing literally all of it. After 15 years of battling MMO burnout and exploring the depths of habit-forming game design, I can tell you with confidence that this idea is wrong. Players know better than developers what players want. Letting players ignore large chunks of your game that they don't like is a GOOD thing. Letting players filter their own experience is a GOOD thing. There's this fear that if players do just what they like and get all the rewards they want, they'll get bored and leave. Maybe YOU would, but from the way you talk, I'd argue you're well burnt out on the game. Because I speak as someone who still enjoys Warframe as a game. I'll stick around for as long as actually playing the game is fun. If I had all the rewards I wanted, then all the better - more toys to play around with. If I never had to play ESO again, then all the better - every minute spent there makes me want quit and play something else instead.

And if you REALLY wanted players to play a larger collection of content? Well, Payday 2 already has a much simpler and less patronising system for it. Every time you run a Heist, heists that you haven't run get a small but stacking experience bonus while the heist you just ran loses that bonus and could attain an XP penalty if you run it too often. The differences are small (+/-15%), but they're there. Every time I look at Crime.net and see a Heist with +10%, I think "Hey, I haven't run that one in a while. Why not?" Of course, if it's Heat Street then I'm probably going to pass on that +15% because #*!% that noise, but for most of the others? Sure, why not. You're still rewarding players for playing a broad range of content without having come across like an "eat your veggies or no dessert" finger-wagging parent.

Long story short, Nightwave is the fast-track to burnout. FOMO works for currently active players, but works heavily AGAINST lapsed players as they miss out on more and more with less and less time to catch up. It's ultimately bad for the game, as far as I'm concerned. Nightwave's current implementation is a lot less bad than what it started out as, but it still ain't good.

[Marine027]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Steel_Rook:

How about fun? Fun is an incentive, isn't it? You know why I play Spy missions despite having everything in their reward rotations? Because I enjoy Spy missions. You know why I still run missions on Jupiter even if they're dumb reductive ones like Extermination? Because I like the Jupiter Remastered tileset. You know why I don't do Elite Sanctuary Onslaugh? Because it sucks ass and is the game's most reductive, most numbing activity by a fair margin. Your mileage my vary on what you like and dislike, certainly, but notice what word I haven't used so far - reward. I like being rewarded for playing games, to be sure. However, if my ONLY reason for playing a game is the reward I receive at the end, then this isn't a game and I'm not playing it. No, this is a freelance job and I'm working it. This is why "Warframe is a grindy game" is not an excuse but a statement of a problem - because Warframe's core incentive is that of a job. And I'm sorry, but I already have one of those - and the kind of job which hasn't stopped during Social Distancing, either.

You and your self-described group of players are free to run whatever content you like, but I find your arguments for making the choices you do unconvincing - as in, that same logic would lead ME to severe burnout in fairly short order. Indeed, most of the times I've burned out on Warframe (and it's been A LOT, I play this game very off-and-on) have been when I've forced myself into content I don't enjoy chasing after rewards I want out of it. That's almost entirely the reason I no longer treat Warframe as a F2P title, but rather a standard purchased title with monthly DLCs. Yes, I could get everything for free. If I turn Warframe into a part-time job, then I'll be paid in Prime crap and maybe even Platinum. As I already have a full-time job paying me enough to buy my entertainment, however, I'd rather play what I like and buy my Prime crap with money, instead. I mean, I did that in Payday 2 for four years, I don't see why I couldn't do that here.

Nightwave's central premise is flawed. It was designed to try and get ALL of the players to play ALL of the content, and that's simply not a good idea. No matter the player, no matter how dedicated, there's always going to be content they hate. I hate Sanctuary Onslaught, maybe you hate PvP (boy, imagine Conclave challenges in Nightwave 🙂), maybe other people absolutely hate endurance runs, maybe some hate exploring and so have no Ayatan Sculptures, or Apothics. Maybe some people never run the Index because it's a terrible game mode. For every player, there exists at least one thing (and probably a lot more) that they don't enjoy. Trying to provide incentive for those people to run content they don't enjoy might make them RUN the content, but it won't make them ENJOY it. As a result, you have a bunch of disgruntled players going through the motions of playing content they resent, then start wondering what it was about Warframe that they liked in the first place. Then stuff like Destiny and Division and World of Warcraft and such start seem more attractive. By forcing people into activities they don't like, you burn them out. Simple as that.

 

No, that's what Mastery Rank is for. Nightwave is a free Battle Pass. Its goal is to keep people logging in day after day, or at least week after week by threatening us with missing out on rare rewards. Actually, let's cut to the chase - by threatening us to miss out on Umbral Forma. Because it's always Umbral Forma. The costumes and designs and such are neat for collectors and veterans, but the Umbral Forma is the one that drives the most traffic. Nothing about the system indicates that it's intended to "expand my horizon." Certainly not any more so than DE releasing random new weapons and slapping them behind random content, new or old.

Moreover, "expanding my horizon" is not necessarily a good thing. There's this idea that players are "missing out" on your game if they aren't playing literally all of it. After 15 years of battling MMO burnout and exploring the depths of habit-forming game design, I can tell you with confidence that this idea is wrong. Players know better than developers what players want. Letting players ignore large chunks of your game that they don't like is a GOOD thing. Letting players filter their own experience is a GOOD thing. There's this fear that if players do just what they like and get all the rewards they want, they'll get bored and leave. Maybe YOU would, but from the way you talk, I'd argue you're well burnt out on the game. Because I speak as someone who still enjoys Warframe as a game. I'll stick around for as long as actually playing the game is fun. If I had all the rewards I wanted, then all the better - more toys to play around with. If I never had to play ESO again, then all the better - every minute spent there makes me want quit and play something else instead.

And if you REALLY wanted players to play a larger collection of content? Well, Payday 2 already has a much simpler and less patronising system for it. Every time you run a Heist, heists that you haven't run get a small but stacking experience bonus while the heist you just ran loses that bonus and could attain an XP penalty if you run it too often. The differences are small (+/-15%), but they're there. Every time I look at Crime.net and see a Heist with +10%, I think "Hey, I haven't run that one in a while. Why not?" Of course, if it's Heat Street then I'm probably going to pass on that +15% because #*!% that noise, but for most of the others? Sure, why not. You're still rewarding players for playing a broad range of content without having come across like an "eat your veggies or no dessert" finger-wagging parent.

Long story short, Nightwave is the fast-track to burnout. FOMO works for currently active players, but works heavily AGAINST lapsed players as they miss out on more and more with less and less time to catch up. It's ultimately bad for the game, as far as I'm concerned. Nightwave's current implementation is a lot less bad than what it started out as, but it still ain't good.

Wish i could like this even more or upvote it like the old days so much.

This here describes everythign wrong with most modern gaems today, the game as a service instead of jsut giving a fun experience so players enjoy and play out there own enjoyment instead of feeling left out or fear of loosing or missing something.

Subs are the very basic of this, you pay monthly you start to fear you "not play enough" and waste your money if you not use the time as example.

Battle pass are the worst exampel in this.

[Yami_Industries]

I kinda wish the tasks could be chosen off of a bulletin board of sorts that refreshed with random tasks for each individual player to do kinda like a bounty board

[Klokwerkaos]

4 hours ago, hix3r said:

Well that's pretty subjective, same could be said for custom armor sets, the niche weapon mods. Notice how we moved from, "you will miss NOTHING from Nightwave" to "you will miss some stuff, but they are completely unnecessary". When did the game start to be about doing just what is completely necessary... Yes there is a difference for some between doing 10 million and 100 million damage, they are enjoying maximizing their build, even if no content requires that. Some people use those builds to do speedruns in the game...

But okay, let's ignore this and pretend for a second these rewards should mean nothing to any player, they are "unnecessary", then we are back to "Don't like nightwave? Don't do it!" mentality... This isn't helpful in solving the issues with the system, it again results in a piece of ignored content that is enjoyed by some and ignored by many, haven't we got a truckload of those? Archwing missions, Conclave, Lunaro, Infested Salvage, the removed Raids...

I want Nightwave to succeed, to keep all newer players and all veterans engaged with the game and take some pressure off the developers when some content takes longer to develop so we can avoid more broken buggy releases...

The issues with Nightwave were brought up as soon as it was released, some of them got addressed, like the Kuva Survival challenge went from 60 min to 30, but there are still elements of the system that just polarizes the playerbase (as even this topic provides a good example) due to dictating specific gameplay elements regardless of preference... and others answer back "just don't do it then"...

The goal of a battlepass is to keep people playing the game... So how about changing the structure a bit? Give multiple "paths", the "slow and steady" for example you could gain the same amount of weekly Nightwave contribution doing general milestones each week, like killing X enemies, doing X bullet jumps etc., these would give Nightwave contribution slower, but you could reach the SAME weekly cap "without actively diverting" your gameplay, or you could do specific gameplay challenges, for larger amounts of Nightwave contribution, so you could reach the weekly cap "in bursts".

You reward both players equally so neither feel they are "missing out" compared to others or feel they are being "forced into content" they don't enjoy and you let players choose if they prefer restrictions or freedom in their gameplay...

These are your issues with the system.  I don't think your suggestions would benefit the game, just you.

My only gripe is that newer players should have better access to nitain, that's it.  This is not backpedaling, and no, missing out on the most memetastic builds does not mean content is locked for you, and if you can't handle doing all the nightwave you probably aren't experienced enough to comment on it meaninngfully anyway, and if you are, eat your vegetables, quietly please and thank you.  Not everything can be an endless loot cave that is specializing in touching your specific happy spots, it's more than good enough as is because you can't satisfy literally everyone, ever.  There is a literally point where you're asking for too much, especially when there is limited manpower to expend.

You are allowed to complain, I am simply voicing my opinion that your opinion is one I strongly disagree with and should not be considered heavily by anyone in charge.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Klokwerkaos

[Steel_Rook]

16 minutes ago, YamiRioru said:

I kinda wish the tasks could be chosen off of a bulletin board of sorts that refreshed with random tasks for each individual player to do kinda like a bounty board

I've suggested something similar in the past. Rather than giving us a list of EXACTLY 7 Weeklies and EXACTLY 3 Elite Weeklies, maybe give us a list of three times as many, but cap us to doing only this many per week. Or alternately, let us reroll challenges we don't like. Vermintide 2, for instance, allows you to reroll I think one Daily per day. There are options to give players more agency in the matter.

[hix3r]

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

If you can't handle doing all the nightwave you probably aren't experienced enough to comment on it meaninngfully anyway, and if you are, eat your vegetables, quietly please and thank you. Not everything can be an endless loot cave that is specializing in touching your specific happy spots, it's more than good enough as is because you can't satisfy literally everyone, ever. There is a literally point where you're asking for too much, especially when there is limited manpower to expend.

You are allowed to complain, I am simply voicing my opinion that your opinion is one I strongly disagree with and should not be considered heavily by anyone in charge.

Nothing but cancerous elitism in its peak form with logical fallacies too much to count... To be frank, I would much prefer to excise this way of thinking from the game above all. Nice to see it is still alive and well. The "just my opinion, bruh" at the end is a nice touch.

[Klokwerkaos]

17 hours ago, hix3r said:

Nothing but cancerous elitism in its peak form with logical fallacies too much to count... To be frank, I would much prefer to excise this way of thinking from the game above all. Nice to see it is still alive and well. The "just my opinion, bruh" at the end is a nice touch.

So you have no logical refute to my stance, just insult hurling. Cool.

Additionally, screaming "Elitist" also doesn't bother me.  It's not a badge I wear with pride, but like, it would be hard to make a case that I'm not in a reasonably high bracket of all players in the game if you run down my credentials, and that's not a brag, because I don't need it to be secure in myself.  All that means is that I have experience, time in the game, and I understand the systems well enough to succeed at them more than the average joe player, which is not terribly difficult to achive if you have enough time on your hands.  If that bothers you, that's more about you than me.  GL convincing people with that kind of rhetoric though 🙂

[RogueSyndiva]

I would like to get the rewards from nightwave tiers, but not in a time-pressured way. If only I could go back to past nightwave series to complete the remaining tiers.