Please Bring Back Liches Killing Us With Back Breakers

[IllogicalLogic420]

Call me a masochist but I sincerely miss having the lich grab me and snap my back into oblivion if I fail a parazon attempt, along with the dialogue and body throw/slam into death/killing me, then the lich ranks up and disappears.

That was cool. Almost everyone I knew loved it.

But as always, you cater to the playerbase that loves to whine about anything that dare shine a tiny semblance of difficulty.

A nice compromise would be a toggle. Players who don't like it, can have what we have now if you fail a parazon by toggling the original interaction off. Meanwhile us veteran masochists can enjoy having our entire existence yeeted and tossed around violently like a helpless little technocytic ragdoll.

You, DE, mentioned a difficulty modifier option in the menu possibly being added. Maybe you could have higher difficulty settings perform that beautiful back break, and leave the lower difficulty settings with the liches doing what they currently do -- smile wink and hug you before disappearing like a vampire from Twighlight.

 

Idk maybe it's just me but getting grabbed by the face and bent over a liches knee cracking my spine open wider than Moses splitting the Red Sea feels a lot more engaging, immersive, and enjoyably.

[schilds]

2 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

a tiny semblance of difficulty

That's just it, it had nothing to do with difficulty.

Nobody would have complained about it if it was a punishment for player carelessness.

 

Besides, can't you just stay in range of them and get grabbed for the effect?

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

Getting killed because of some random combination of mods, equipped in the wrong order or not at all, is not a display of skill. If it were a QTE session where the press of a wrong button got you killed, I'd understand, but that's not the scenario here. Complaints are still valid, I'd rather not be killed because of something outside of skillful timing. I'll summarize this whole situation once again.

"Tenno, how many fingers am I holding behind my back?"

"Uh...Two?"

"WRONG!"

We are not going back to some stupid gimmick whether you like it or not. The Lich system wasn't clearly thought out in the first place, and it clearly shows when we're debating something as stupid as this.

[Loza03]

Nobody's problem was with the fact they were getting killed. Peoples problem was that they were getting killed for succeeding.

Imagine studying for a test,  getting 100%, then your teacher comes out, spits in your face, shreds the test, and stamps 'F' on your permanent record. That's basically what the back breaker was.

 

You beat the lich in a fight... and you get sucker punched because 'whoops, you put the wrong mod in that slot'. That ain't difficulty.

[kapn655321]

Like getting killed by your Lich? Try a different loadout.

I promise you, trying to kill a Lich with a Hydroid and a Shaku results in Severe penalty.

[IllogicalLogic420]

Too many generalizations here and my point went right over people's heads. Wowza.

[fantaisie]

michaelscottno.gif

[Loza03]

Just now, IllogicalLogic420 said:

Too many generalizations here and my point went right over people's heads. Wowza.

What point?

 

It was a poor mechanic that punished for success. How can that be justified?

[IllogicalLogic420]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

What point?

 

It was a poor mechanic that punished for success. How can that be justified?

If I answer that I'll be repeating myself and I don't like doing that. Just reread the OP until it makes sense. I said nothing about that part you mentioned. It's annoying when people talk about thing's when my OP was cut and dry and said what it said, meaning nothing more, meaning nothing less.

[IceColdHawk]

I'm sorry for your loss for engaging, challenging and immersive gameplay. I do hope and think that Scarlet Spear should keep you entertained.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

1 minute ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

If I answer that I'll be repeating myself and I don't like doing that. Just reread the OP until it makes sense. I said nothing about that part you mentioned. It's annoying when people talk about thing's when my OP was cut and dry and said what it said, meaning nothing more, meaning nothing less.

Read it, still doesn't make your argument very strong. The original implementation of Liches was incredibly flawed, nothing is going to change that mentality. Failing to defeat your Lich because of a random combination of mods is NOT challenging & has absolutely nothing to do with difficulty.

[IllogicalLogic420]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

I'm sorry for your loss for engaging, challenging and immersive gameplay. I do hope and think that Scarlet Spear should keep you entertained.

I feel sorry that you actually made such a comment. I never said it was challenging for me. I'm not begging DE for this. I'm just asking. Nothing wrong with that. If they don't bring it back (pun unintended) then I'll just move on.

People love pulling things out of thin air. Was my reply entertainment enough for you?

So much salt in this thread. So unecessary.

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, IllogicalLogic420 said:

I feel sorry that you actually made such a comment. I never said it was challenging for me. I'm not begging DE for this. I'm just asking. Nothing wrong with that. If they don't bring it back (pun unintended) then I'll just move on.

People love pulling things out of thin air. Was my reply entertainment enough for you?

So much salt in this thread. So unecessary.

I was just trying to revive some of your previous entertainment and recommend Scarlet Spear.

Why you givin' me salt tho.

[IllogicalLogic420]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

Read it, still doesn't make your argument very strong. The original implementation of Liches was incredibly flawed, nothing is going to change that mentality. Failing to defeat your Lich because of a random combination of mods is NOT challenging & has absolutely nothing to do with difficulty.

Yeah uh, I'm talking about fun-factor, and that a lot of players did in fact complain it was too difficult, even though it wasn't. If you didn't consider it fun, good for you. At least I'm willing to compromise, but you aren't. And that's the problem and one of the many silly divides in the community. If people were willing to compromise more, we'd all be more united rather than divided.

 

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

I was just trying to revive some of your previous entertainment and recommend Scarlet Spear.

Why you givin' me salt tho.

That's my fault then. I misinterpreted your post as sarcastic. Sorry. Partly because I think Scarlet Spear is a gigantic joke of an event/content. But that can be discussed in another topic. Although, theres millions of those already.

Edited April 18, 2020 by IllogicalLogic420

[Loza03]

Just now, IllogicalLogic420 said:

If I answer that I'll be repeating myself and I don't like doing that. Just reread the OP until it makes sense. I said nothing about that part you mentioned. It's annoying when people talk about thing's when my OP was cut and dry and said what it said, meaning nothing more, meaning nothing less.

Alright then. Time to put my GCSE in critical thinking to good use, dissecting the OP.

 

 

16 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

Call me a masochist but I sincerely miss having the lich grab me and snap my back into oblivion if I fail a parazon attempt, along with the dialogue and body throw/slam into death/killing me, then the lich ranks up and disappears.

Primary conclusion - in other words, the main 'point' of the thread. You want this. However, there's going to need to be a reason, an 'argument', as it's known.

18 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

That was cool. Almost everyone I knew loved it.

Subjective - everyone I knew hated it. As an argument, has minimal value since it's just your opinion, not any form of fact or benefit for the game. Just 'I like this, and people I know like this'

Also an appeal to popularity, which is a flaw as what is popular isn't always what is good.

19 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

But as always, you cater to the playerbase that loves to whine about anything that dare shine a tiny semblance of difficulty.

Ad hominem attack, has no value.

19 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

A nice compromise would be a toggle. Players who don't like it, can have what we have now if you fail a parazon by toggling the original interaction off. Meanwhile us veteran masochists can enjoy having our entire existence yeeted and tossed around violently like a helpless little technocytic ragdoll.

Reiteration of the primary conclusion.

But why? Up to now, there's been no significant reasoning given.

Why bother making this change based only off an appeal to an indeterminate number of people?

20 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

You, DE, mentioned a difficulty modifier option in the menu possibly being added. Maybe you could have higher difficulty settings perform that beautiful back break, and leave the lower difficulty settings with the liches doing what they currently do -- smile wink and hug you before disappearing like a vampire from Twighlight.

Again, why? Bear in mind, this is not difficulty, as I have stated above, this is punishment for success.

How does this benefit the game as a whole?

21 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

Idk maybe it's just me but getting grabbed by the face and bent over a liches knee cracking my spine open wider than Moses splitting the Red Sea feels a lot more engaging, immersive, and enjoyably.

Aknowledgement of this threads own subjectivity.

 

 

All in all, one attempt at reasoning, which was purely an appeal to popularity not a real argument in favour of making such a change and one ad hominem attack.

Frankly speaking, there is no evidence or reason to make such a change beyond your own subjective opinion. Meanwhile, there is a reason otherwise - punishment for success disincentives engagement, which can cause a negative experience for other players - if you don't stab your lich, their lich can't spawn. That alone is good enough reason to keep this feature removed.

[kapn655321]

Just now, IllogicalLogic420 said:

If I answer that I'll be repeating myself and I don't like doing that. Just reread the OP until it makes sense. I said nothing about that part you mentioned. It's annoying when people talk about thing's when my OP was cut and dry and said what it said, meaning nothing more, meaning nothing less.

You'd like a hardcore toggle option. You could toggle your mod loadout to not survive a grab from your Lich.. but you'd rather have a hardcore mode. Would this hardcore mode get better drops? Doesn't matter, it's going to have to, or people will flip. Non-hardcore mode would look like an exploit to the hardcore scene otherwise, meaning now there's going to be 2 types of Liches.. Well why aren't their murmur acquisitions different? Why aren't the weapons maxed? ....Or to spare that headache, just say screw that because that's a thicket that isn't worth getting stuck in for a mechanic that was received poorly by a significant portion of the player base. Ultimately, if players still want to get wrecked, they can through mods.. but don't.. and that sorta reinforces their decision.

The whole dynamic around difficulty in this game is stuck on two points.. there is so remarkably little skill, and the potential for losing loot is worse than death. Were we able to have skill and keep loot, I don't think you'd see players being so compulsively risk averse.. or as you call it,

27 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

the playerbase that loves to whine about anything that dare shine a tiny semblance of difficulty.

I'd love more challenging skill based combat in game, but I'm deeply opposed to cheap shot 1 hit KO's that undermine Hours worth of work towards tedious loot grinds, especially because of a guessing game. ...so I feel we're conflating difficulty with what the Lich used to do.

[IllogicalLogic420]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Alright then. Time to put my GCSE in critical thinking to good use, dissecting the OP.

 

 

Primary conclusion - in other words, the main 'point' of the thread. You want this. However, there's going to need to be a reason, an 'argument', as it's known.

Well yeah, I made my reasoning for keeping it.

Subjective - everyone I knew hated it. As an argument, has minimal value since it's just your opinion, not any form of fact or benefit for the game. Just 'I like this, and people I know like this'

Obviously it's subjective, which is why I worded what I said as such, lol.

Also an appeal to popularity, which is a flaw as what is popular isn't always what is good.

And who cares if you consider it "not good" if other people enjoy it? Do you enjoy treading all over what other people like? Seems like it.

Ad hominem attack, has no value.

That's a weird way of saying "You said a fact"

Reiteration of the primary conclusion.

But why? Up to now, there's been no significant reasoning given.

Why bother making this change based only off an appeal to an indeterminate number of people?

But why not? What may be insignificant to you, isn't insignificant to others. And, DE could easily figure out some statistical data about that if they wanted to. Why take away what many people enjoy just because many others don't enjoy it? You lack willingness to compromise.

Again, why? Bear in mind, this is not difficulty, as I have stated above, this is punishment for success.

But some people think it is difficulty. So many that I said what I said. And most importantly, idc about that, I care about fun. I thought it was fun with back breakers. You don't always need a grand reason for everything.

How does this benefit the game as a whole?

Pretty much what I said in the OP, that.

Aknowledgement of this threads own subjectivity.

Ok, yeah...and??? Lmao

 

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

 

All in all, one attempt at reasoning, which was purely an appeal to popularity not a real argument in favour of making such a change and one ad hominem attack.

Frankly speaking, there is no evidence or reason to make such a change beyond your own subjective opinion. Meanwhile, there is a reason otherwise - punishment for success disincentives engagement, which can cause a negative experience for other players - if you don't stab your lich, their lich can't spawn. That alone is good enough reason to keep this feature removed.

And to what you said last, that's a very weird and innaccurate synopsis of my OP.

On the other hand, there is no evidence beyond your own subjective reasoning as well. So? And your "punishment for success" is easily remedied with a toggle. So you ruin the experience for other players just to cater to what you want -- that's pretty selfish. At least I'm willing to compromise with both options.

And, bug fixes exist for a reason.

[IllogicalLogic420]

14 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

You'd like a hardcore toggle option. Sort of. You could toggle your mod loadout to not survive a grab from your Lich.. but you'd rather have a hardcore mode. No I really just want to enjoy the OG lich fail animations. Would this hardcore mode get better drops? You'd have to ask DE, it's not my idea, they mentioned difficulty options, I only repeated that i heard them mention it. I forget which stream though. Doesn't matter, it's going to have to, or people will flip. Non-hardcore mode would look like an exploit to the hardcore scene otherwise, meaning now there's going to be 2 types of Liches.. Well why aren't their murmur acquisitions different? Why aren't the weapons maxed? ....Or to spare that headache, just say screw that because that's a thicket that isn't worth getting stuck in for a mechanic that was received poorly by a significant (i'd love to see actual numbers) portion of the player base. Ultimately, if players still want to get wrecked, they can through mods.. but don't.. and that sorta reinforces their decision. I un-mod myself at times. But then, what is the point of even having mods in the first place or collecting any?

The whole dynamic around difficulty in this game is stuck on two points.. there is so remarkably little skill, and the potential for losing loot is worse than death. Were we able to have skill and keep loot, I don't think you'd see players being so compulsively risk averse.. or as you call it, I agree.

I'd love more challenging skill based combat in game, but I'm deeply opposed to cheap shot 1 hit KO's that undermine Hours worth of work towards tedious loot grinds, especially because of a guessing game. ...so I feel we're conflating difficulty with what the Lich used to do.

And to finish with what you last said, I agree with that too. Using Lephantis as a boss fight example.....that would be more enjoyable if it were more dynamic, like having the infested head produce a sort of bullet hell to constantly dodge, while trying to avoid getting sliced by the other head, same for head 3, and have the boss move around a lot more to actually make you put effort into aiming. Currently, the fight pretty much either: dodge, shoot, dodge, shoot, ok its dead no wait nevermind, omg its huge, oh wait, just keep doing dodge shoot, or ....... stand there and tank as you shoot it.

Mobs are a whole different story.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

36 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

Yeah uh, I'm talking about fun-factor, and that a lot of players did in fact complain it was too difficult, even though it wasn't. If you didn't consider it fun, good for you. At least I'm willing to compromise, but you aren't. And that's the problem and one of the many silly divides in the community. If people were willing to compromise more, we'd all be more united rather than divided.

Fun is subjective, difficulty is not. A one-hit kill mechanic, regardless of the health threshold of your Warframe is a cheap mechanic, and it had to go. If you're looking for difficulty, it'll exist in two capacities: damage modifiers & AI tactics/maneuverability. Damage modifiers go up when the mission level goes up, but the AI in Warframe has almost always been objectively questionable, thus making most encounters cheese-able. If you're wanting a more difficult experience, suggest to DE that they actually put some time & effort into improving AI performance. If you want to better integrate the back-breaker & other "execution" moves, then the best option for that would be to set a health threshold for which the moves can be triggered, so when your Lich gets closer they'll be able to do it and it won't feel as cheap as when initiating the Parazon execution with full health.

There, we've just potentially saved Liches, made executions more reasonable & improved overall difficulty.

Edited April 18, 2020 by (PS4)IndianChiefJeff

[Loza03]

Just now, IllogicalLogic420 said:

And who cares if you consider it "not good" if other people enjoy it? Do you enjoy treading all over what other people like? Seems like it.

Another ad hominem attack.

Also, due to the innate subjectivity of this statement, "who cares if you consider it good if other people do not enjoy it? Do you enjoy treading all over what other people do not like?" Subjectivity has little value because of how easily it can be turned - without objective facts to support an argument, it's just meaningless yelling of 'I want this' 'well I want this'.

There has to be an objective benefit to taking the effort to add this back in.

2 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

 

That's a weird way of saying "You said a fact"

Nope. An ad hominem attack is, basically, attacking other people's character instead of their arguments.

46 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

But as always, you cater to the playerbase that loves to whine about anything that dare shine a tiny semblance of difficulty.

This, quite clearly, doesn't address any points these people might make - only disparages them for making those points as 'whining'. That's not an argument, no matter how true it may or may not be. That's just bullying - insulting people until they shut up.

4 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

But why not? What may be insignificant to you, isn't insignificant to others. And, DE could easily figure out some statistical data about that if they wanted to. Why take away what many people enjoy just because many others don't enjoy it? You lack willingness to compromise.

As I said - there has to be a reason why. It's not a neutral action - somebody at DE has to take time out of their day/days to re-implement all this stuff, make it a toggle, and figure out how to work the toggle when in multiplayer. For as much or as little investment as that may be, there must be a return on that investment.

As for statistical data: 39.1% of people who answered the 2019 Warframe Survey gave Kuva Liches, in their back-breaking implementation, as their least favourite update of 2019, a large majority.

9 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

But some people think it is difficulty. So many that I said what I said. And most importantly, idc about that, I care about fun. I thought it was fun with back breakers. You don't always need a grand reason for everything.

But you do need A reason, and one small group of people reporting that they liked it is not a good one, considering the investment involved in making this change.

10 minutes ago, IllogicalLogic420 said:

Pretty much what I said in the OP, that.

As the whole post was dedicated to, no, you didn't.

 

[Drasiel]

so basically you want the animation back.

I think it would be pretty easy to add it back in: don't play backbreak when you correctly guess parazon, do if you get it wrong, and don't have it kill the player.

[Voltage]

DE was not catering to that audience because there was no difficulty in Liches in the first place. The back break disrupted gameplay. It was never hard nor did it ever have any positive effect. For example, when they added Kuva as drops, but the Lich still KO'd the player, you could never get extra from Smeeta. This is because you would have to revive if you died and lose the Affinity buff from Charm. 

If Liches were meant to be difficult enemies, they would need to be redesigned to be harder to kill than when they launched. I can kill them in a few melee swings the same way since November. They always lacked difficulty, and the back breaking mechanic was never good for the gameplay loop to begin with.

The only thing DE did towards changing Liches was reducing their grind which is what they do to every update to make it accessible and appealing to those who want goodies without playing as much as whenever something launches.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Voltage

[Colyeses]

2 hours ago, Drasiel said:

so basically you want the animation back.

I think it would be pretty easy to add it back in: don't play backbreak when you correctly guess parazon, do if you get it wrong, and don't have it kill the player.

IIRC, it's still in the game. If you stay too close to the lich, there's a chance it will grab you and perform one of these finishers. It just won't kill you.