Addressing the "tension" in the community

[64m3r]

We're all aware by now that both the community and devs are feeling stressed. It's on youtube, it's in the forums, it's on the official livestreams. Because some people regard the last few major updates a failure or half-baked. And i think it's time we all just slowed down and tried to bandage up the wounds before moving on, if not then this is bound to happen again some time in the future.

My personal opinion, based on what i've heard and talked about with the community and friends, is that the whole reason for all of this "hate" is because the game became too popular for it's own good. I've been here since 2012. For the first 5 years it was acceptable that updates were buggy, glitchy, etc. It was a Beta that we as players Willingly downloaded and decided to take part in bug testing, improving on ideas and funding so that the game could become better.

But.. it's 2020. The game is No Longer a Beta. And new players are coming from every platform, every genre and every similar game out there. We have wow players, lol players, call of duty players, etc. Veterans may be used to or at least more agreeable with buggy updates, but veterans are no longer the majority of the community. The average Warframe player expects this game which has millions and millions of players to hold up to impressions that similar games with large communities have given them.

What im trying to say is, You can't force PC players to bug test the game without backlash anymore because your community has grown and you're no longer using "training wheels".
Im not saying the game has to be perfect. That doesn't exist. Every game has flaws, every game has haters and these days everyone's a critic. But something has to change. The game has to adapt.

----

An Easy solution (maybe easier said than done but...) would be to give players a Choice. It's clear that the biggest problem you have now is you can't bug test updates on a massive scale in a short amount of time. With a community so large it's statistically impossible to find all the exploits and bugs before 1 of the 30mil players does. And once an exploit has become Meta, you will piss off the majority by fixing it. There's no way around that, unless you had say millions of bug testers.

So why not let players do it? A choice that allows players to Willingly bug test updates before the majority community gets them.
Something similar to what Minecraft has done for a decade now. Experimental updates that players can choose to download if they want to bug test and provide feedback or ignore if they just want to play the more stable content.
That way, the players that are bored out of their mind, the veterans and those that just want to help can actually help polish the game and in turn keep the community happier since the average warframe player won't be Forced to download content they think is broken.

You get early feedback. You get a massive and free bug testing team. Community gets better polished updates. Everyone wins.
_{theoretically}.

Just an idea that might be worth considering.

PS: i also think it's important to be more open towards suggestions and ideas, like in the old days. You know when players helped make weapons, warframes, missions etc. It can be difficult with a large community, but it should still be a priority.

 

[64m3r]

also, props to DE for still being positive and moving forward.

I'll admit i've had heated "episodes" while playing the game as well... but i always log back in the next day. Because DE are some of the most transparent devs i've seen in my 20 years of gaming. Im honestly surprised the game managed to stay active for 8 years. Normally when i play games i just speedrun them and uninstall as soon as im done. Even with MMOs like WoW as soon as i hit the level cap and finish the raids, i just log out and that's it. Warframe is the only game i've consistently played for more 3 years now + On-off for 5.

[(PSN)Ragology]

I think it would do a lotta good if DE took time to play their own game a bit more. Using the things they don't often use so that they have a more rounded perspective. Lets Ban DE employees Greatswords, brama, zenuric and their top 8 most used frames for a month and then lets see how they view the games balance.

Trained eyes make more informed balance adjustments than jerked knees.

[64m3r]

On 2020-04-19 at 3:32 AM, (PS4)Ragology said:

I think it would do a lotta good if DE took time to play their own game a bit more. Using the things they don't often use so that they have a more rounded perspective. Lets Ban DE employees Greatswords, brama, zenuric and their top 8 most used frames for a month and then lets see how they view the games balance.

Trained eyes make more informed balance adjustments than jerked knees.

they do have a dedicated team to test stuff like this.
Problem is it's not very big. 200 testers and 30mil users is a huge difference.
It will probably take those 200 testers months to find something broken that those 30mil will find by random chance.
But regarding overall game balance, you're correct. There are a lot of common sense things in warframe that are broken.
For example, Cronus sword. It's drop rate was nerfed to 5% after the initial acquisition. Meaning it could take you MONTHS before you get a duplicate.
This was done years ago to prevent MR1 players from credit farming. But now we have the index. I literally just helped a MR9 player get 20mil credits a few days ago.
Mid-tier defense missions give you 20K credits per 5 waves. So that Cronus nerf is about as outdated as a Altair 8800.

Yet DE refuses to remove the nerf which forced me to farm for it for 5 f**** months because i accidentally sold it and they threatened to suspend my account if i discuss it.
Like i said, i have a lot of heated moments with this game. But i still prefer this over train wrecks like Fallout 76.

Back then "players used coptering to speedrun maps so we created movement 2.0 to make the game faster"
today "players used limbo to complete some nearly impossible rivens so we completely nerfed limbo and ruined him for the majority of mains"
their mindset has flipped upside down. It's more damage control and less For the player, by the player.
You can't keep using exploits to cheese the game, sure. But the reason these exploits exist in the first place is because we have to bypass broken content with broken tactics. You give players impossible task and... what's that quote "Life finds a way"

that's why i said everyone needs to just slow down and the entirety of the game needs to be bandaged and polished before any more new content is added.
Add more weight to a shaky foundation and it will collapse.
We, veterans waited 5+ years for the game to get where it's at right now. If we can wait 5y, then everyone can wait at minimum 1 year for things to get patched up. No one expects the devs to pop out of the ground like dwarves with new content every month.

[kwlingo]

The problem is the Nuking frames or AOE large radius weapons. They make all game content too easy and then become meta. The moment they become meta then they nerf it. You see the pattern. DE needs to understand nuking and large AOE doesn't create any Co-Op for game play. When they introduce frames/ weapons that dont have these... well they never become meta. The balance is super chaotic and we have seen this from the beginning. The issue is they should have fixed the mindset of the Warframe community way back in the earlier phases of the game being made, "not the power god fantasy that we have all come to accept and wont anything less." For instance: Banshee, Ember, Arca Plasmor, Catchmoon, Wukong rework became GOD level with rework then nerfed, Kuva Bramma, Tigris Prime, Redeemer Prime, slash with 20 meter throw walls with melee, the list goes on. Once something feels like God, it needs to be brought down.

Edited April 19, 2020 by kwlingo

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

Haven't read any other comments yet but I agree and so does DE. Along with DE Scott's answer, my solutions would be:

1) Shy (Quite Shallow) recently posted a YouTube stream with DE Scott, TP, DK and Brozime where Scott discussed their process of expanding the testing base. During that chat, he mentioned the hurdles of preventing spoilers from leaking as well as balancing the content fast enough (to prevent the "content drought" people from coming out screaming once the "slow down DE" crowd goes to bed). If the testing players follow instructions and work as intended, then this plan could definitely make fora better future. 

Note for DE: Of course, which such a large test base, eventually those testers will complain about having to do this because they can't enjoy the content enough now. The solution would then be to divide that massive group into odd and even duty cycles per mainline update so they can enjoy new content too.

2) Some of the most vocal critics on YouTube (Mogamu, LoR, Rehatalius, iFlynn, Brozime) were the ones who suggested to DE that the content releases were too slow and they should release content less tested and just rely on the players more than normal to iron out the bugs. The schedule must be adhered to and no more "DElayed" content. The result was The Old Blood, Railjack and Scarlet Spear's launch issues. While the idea wasn't exactly the best, as we are seeing, it was in relatively decent faith and, after the fixes, all three updates turned out great. That said, having DE listen to partner and community advice only to then get ripped for doing what they asked is ridicules and those responsible should be called out and own it. 

DE note: Focus less on the schedule and please get back to having fun. There are WAY to many players with omni-directional views and YouTubers with hidden agendas and greed for viewers now and it gets old trying to figure out who to please. Try implementing a simple voter system on the forums for large discussions seeking changes.

3) Don't allow the dev streamers to see chat during live streams. Assign a chat lead who can take notes and alert the live team of any essential conversations or questions. Again, there are far too many people with BS agendas or sketchy questions. 

[64m3r]

3 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Haven't read any other comments yet but I agree and so does DE. Along with DE Scott's answer, my solutions would be:

1) Shy (Quite Shallow) recently posted a YouTube stream with DE Scott, TP, DK and Brozime where Scott discussed their process of expanding the testing base. During that chat, he mentioned the hurdles of preventing spoilers from leaking as well as balancing the content fast enough (to prevent the "content drought" people from coming out screaming once the "slow down DE" crowd goes to bed). If the testing players follow instructions and work as intended, then this plan could definitely make fora better future. 

Note for DE: Of course, which such a large test base, eventually those testers will complain about having to do this because they can't enjoy the content enough now. The solution would then be to divide that massive group into odd and even duty cycles per mainline update so they can enjoy new content too.

2) Some of the most vocal critics on YouTube (Mogamu, LoR, Rehatalius, iFlynn, Brozime) were the ones who suggested to DE that the content releases were too slow and they should release content less tested and just rely on the players more than normal to iron out the bugs. The schedule must be adhered to and no more "DElayed" content. The result was The Old Blood, Railjack and Scarlet Spear's launch issues. While the idea wasn't exactly the best, as we are seeing, it was in relatively decent faith and, after the fixes, all three updates turned out great. That said, having DE listen to partner and community advice only to then get ripped for doing what they asked is ridicules and those responsible should be called out and own it. 

DE note: Focus less on the schedule and please get back to having fun. There are WAY to many players with omni-directional views and YouTubers with hidden agendas and greed for viewers now and it gets old trying to figure out who to please. Try implementing a simple voter system on the forums for large discussions seeking changes.

3) Don't allow the dev streamers to see chat during live streams. Assign a chat lead who can take notes and alert the live team of any essential conversations or questions. Again, there are far too many people with BS agendas or sketchy questions. 

honestly im not one who cares about spoilers. I just care about the content.
You could literally spoil the ending of a movie for me and i'd still watch it if i enjoy it.

As for critics. They did the opposite. They told DE to add more Endgame content for veterans as currently there isn't ANY. Having faith that the community will bug test rushed updates was never mentioned in any conversation. I think Rehatalius said the exact opposite of that. Unless it's some youtuber i don't know about, in which case they're the minority and don't have any grasp on reality. The reality is , NO ONE wants to be an unwilling guinea pig. It's common sense.

This would hinder interaction between the devs and the community. But i agree some form of message moderation is required. Just because 1 person screams the loudest, doesn't mean they are the majority. Which is why i think it's important to make POLLS where the entire community is involved instead of just relying on a small group of people to Relay a message. It creates the issue of "broken telephone". 1st person says Snake, the 100th says Bake. It also allows for personal agendas to corrupt ideas.

[64m3r]

4 hours ago, kwlingo said:

The problem is the Nuking frames or AOE large radius weapons. They make all game content too easy and then become meta. The moment they become meta then they nerf it. You see the pattern. DE needs to understand nuking and large AOE doesn't create any Co-Op for game play. When they introduce frames/ weapons that dont have these... well they never become meta. The balance is super chaotic and we have seen this from the beginning. The issue is they should have fixed the mindset of the Warframe community way back in the earlier phases of the game being made, "not the power god fantasy that we have all come to accept and wont anything less." For instance: Banshee, Ember, Arca Plasmor, Catchmoon, Wukong rework became GOD level with rework then nerfed, Kuva Bramma, Tigris Prime, Redeemer Prime, slash with 20 meter throw walls with melee, the list goes on. Once something feels like God, it needs to be brought down.

this is in no way related to the current issue. The issue and topic is the backlash DE received due to the last 3 updates being sub-optimal. And the reason players went for Nuke builds as meta is because the majority of the game is Farming endlessly. And that's not something we want to do for days or months. We want to efficiently get it over with so we can enjoy some Actual content. Nuking became meta because grinding for 50 hours a week became the norm. Like i said... give players an impossible task and they will adapt to overcome it.
I literally can't imagine doing long survivals or events like Scarlet Spear without frames like mesa or weapons like Bramma. It would be a nightmare and the excessive grind will cause more players to Leave.

Case and point: I started this game with several friends. Our clan was in an alliance. The alliance lost 90% of it's members because they couldn't deal with the Grind. ALL of my friends left as well because they though spending 3000 hours in farming was not worth it. That's over 200 people gone that i personally know of.
And my friends list is littered with 100 other people between MR1 and 20 that haven't been online since 2016.
 Nukes aren't the issue.

As for the list you mentioned. Banshee was nerfed. Ember was reworked and she was never good above lvl 40 nor is she good now. Arca plasmor is in no way shape or form a nuke weapon. Catchmoon is the exact same as Arca plasmor and i rarely use it due to it's short range. Wukong was nerfed to hell in terms of tanking but currently he's a good melee frame... not a nuke. Kuva bramma, that's relatively new and i can guarantee you DE will nerf it as soon as they are done with their current project. Tigris and Redeemer as well as all other shotguns are now obsolete due to the status update. Melee no longer hits through walls and slash no longer works on corpus units. 
Literally the point in my first comment was 

On 2020-04-19 at 2:38 AM, 64m3r said:

the biggest problem you have now is you can't bug test updates on a massive scale in a short amount of time. With a community so large it's statistically impossible to find all the exploits and bugs before 1 of the 30mil players does. And once an exploit has become Meta, you will piss off the majority by fixing it. There's no way around that, unless you had say millions of bug testers.

The balance is off because DE can't keep up. But with the status, melee, level scaling and damage update, they managed to level things out a little.

Edited April 20, 2020 by 64m3r

[kwlingo]

59 minutes ago, 64m3r said:

As for the list you mentioned. Banshee was nerfed. Ember was reworked and she was never good above lvl 40 nor is she good now. Arca plasmor is in no way shape or form a nuke weapon. Catchmoon is the exact same as Arca plasmor and i rarely use it due to it's short range. Wukong was nerfed to hell in terms of tanking but currently he's a good melee frame... not a nuke. Kuva bramma, that's relatively new and i can guarantee you DE will nerf it as soon as they are done with their current project. Tigris and Redeemer as well as all other shotguns are now obsolete due to the status update. Melee no longer hits through walls and slash no longer works on corpus units. 
Literally the point in my first comment was 

Anything meta will some how get a nerf or dispo so some manner. Same here I've played since 2013 on PS4 over 1000 some hours, and stopped because I was lost. 2017 went to PC with over 3000 some hours MR 28. Im probably totalling almost 5000 hours now. Ive seen enough to see meta's always get changes. lol The point was not just nuking frames it was weapons/ frames that took Co-Op out of Co-Op, aka Catchmoon over 50% of community using it then the big nerf.