Unpopular Warframe opinions thread?

[vanaukas]

12 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Just to quickly slip in here:

The main difference between rolls in D&D and the Requiem system is that the former are caused by player choices. It's more akin to playing, say, Poker or Blackjack: at the end of the day, it boils down to odds, but players are very involved, hedging bets and bluffing and finding optimal vantage points to get the best odds.

The main issue with the Requiem system isn't just that players lack that kind of relationship with the proverbial roll of the dice, but also that it's the first time it's even conceptualized in the game. D&D starts out with dice rolls building character sheets. Card games start out with bets and odds. They open with an implicit (or sometimes explicit) notion of "you can get screwed if you don't play the odds right". The failed rolls on Requiem attempts aren't only independent of players, they come very late in a game that doesn't even hint at a "roll well or get ducked" idea.

Basically: RNG failure can work just fine. Throwing that kind of curveball late in the game, with no early-game indication, and with minimal if not non-existent player influence doesn't work so well.

I can agree with the lack of info, that's bad, but being killed because a failure is perfectly fine imho. 

11 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Sorry I have passion, I hope you learn what that is someday

Having passion =/= Whinning and ranting. Learn the difference quick because IRL it will cost you a lot having that behavior.
 

11 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

They punish the player if the player fails at applying skill and lessons learned. That's standard game design

Guessing the wrong permutation after already winning a boss fight is not cause for punishment. That's bad game design

Let me demonstrate with an example: This is Mr. Chimes from Cuphead. He has trial-and-error gameplay. The player has to randomly guess the correct permutation to activate Mr. Chimes' weakpoint. This is perfectly good game design

Old Liches were a hypothetical version of Mr. Chimes, except you had to deplete his entire health bar to have a single guess. And if you guess wrong you immediately die and get sent back to the start of the stage (Mr. Chimes isn't even close to the start of the stage). That is horrible game design

So, you want a trial and error gameplay with not punishement if you guess wrong but you just win when you already know you are failing and have the opportunity to abuse a system of "Memory game". They (liches and Mr chimes) aren't comparable at all and yet you argue on top of that. This is like comparing Destiny with Warframe because they "are similar" but in fact they are completely different games and just have a similar setting. It's like comparing Silent Hill with Alan wake because both of them are horror focused. 

11 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

And here's a fun fact you can learn in college: bad game design, AKA poor heuristic design, is physically frustrating to the human brain

This is not physically frustrating at all, I NEVER STRESSED OUT BEING KILLED BY A LICH (and if it was "bad design", I would be targeted by that too, because, you know, I have a human brain too like other people who didn't mind being killed by a lich who also are in this thread, unless the "bad game design" targets just some poeple to ruining their lives while the other people who isn't targeted is having fun). Also, pretty sure game design is more than heuristics, but in this case applies so, whatever.

[(PSN)grayhyh]

unpopular opinions thread devolved into "Is the requiem guessing card order thing is a puzzle?" LOL

[trunks013]

Just now, (PS4)grayhyh said:

unpopular opinions thread devolved into "Is the requiem guessing card order thing is a puzzle?" LOL

Yeah totaly derailling LOL ^.^ 

 

Oh my unpopular opinion almost forgot it : All frames are OP . If you don't think so well try it again ^.^ 

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, xHeretic said:

They (liches and Mr chimes) aren't comparable at all and yet you argue on top of that.

That is correct. That was my point. They aren't comparable, they're contrasting. Because Mr. Chimes is fun while the old Liches were not fun

[vanaukas]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

That is correct. That was my point. They aren't comparable, they're contrasting. Because Mr. Chimes is fun while the old Liches were not fun

No, they aren't comparable because the gameplay and "the guessing game" are not the same. It's not about fun, it's about mechanics and design. It's like comparing cuphead and dark souls just for the sake of difficulty.

10 hours ago, RamonLeeYJ said:

You get tired of Warframe because you have no other games to occupy your time and you keep playing it even though you hated it.

Instead of voicing out concerns early on, you write a angry lengthy-ass rant as your first forum post and secretly went back to play Warframe again

The worst part is the devs knowing it and dismissing those rants based on that.

Edited April 21, 2020 by xHeretic

[(PSN)grayhyh]

6 minutes ago, trunks013 said:

Yeah totaly derailling LOL ^.^ 

 

Oh my unpopular opinion almost forgot it : All frames are OP . If you don't think so well try it again ^.^ 

Even zephyr? i dunno what zephyr even has other than a thrust that if you put alot of duration on zeph she she can go 100m in one thrust and if you kill her duration she looks like she farted in mid air,and the Slow tiny tornados abilliy that hinders you more than helping you,its funny to see enemies "swimming" in those tornados tho.

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, xHeretic said:

No, they aren't comparable because the gameplay and "the guessing game" are not the same. It's not about fun, it's about mechanics and design. It's like comparing cuphead and dark souls just for the sake of difficulty.

I could actually totally do that. Yeah the player control mechanics are completely different, one's a 3D stick-and-move hack-and-slash while the other is a 2D fast-paced run-and-gun. But the overall experience? Pattern memorization yet with juuuuuust enough telegraphing that it's theoretically possible to beat on your first try, a focus on items to boost yourself up but they can't substitute for practice and skill, an oppressive atmosphere where the story is about overcoming monumental tasks laid out my the supernatural through sheer force of being awesome

I heavily disagree with your notion that I can't compare and contrast things. Of course I can. That's the point of game design, that's the point of design in general: taking lessons learned and seeing how they work in new situations

[snake22222228]

I absolutely despise that most warframes have one or two abilities that are kind of useless. For example: Frosts Freeze, mirages prism and sleight of hand, valkyrs ripline, etc.

I just wish all four abilities of each frame would be a viable option. (I know there are some people who say: "just play however you want, doesn't matter if it ain't viable", while this is true, it still pains me to know that when i cast a certain ability, it didn't make a difference in combat. It's... hard to explain.

[trunks013]

Just now, (PS4)grayhyh said:

Even zephyr? i dunno what zephyr even has other than a thrust that if you put alot of duration on zeph she she can go 100m in one thrust and if you kill her duration she looks like she farted in mid air,and the Slow tiny tornados abilliy that hinders you more than helping you,its funny to see enemies "swimming" in those tornados tho.

Oh ive seen some tank zephyr in the past but i don't know if we can still do that.

Last time i checked she was cheesing everything travel related in open world thought ^.^ 

[TARINunit9]

Just now, snake22222228 said:

I absolutely despise that most warframes have one or two abilities that are kind of useless. For example: Frosts Freeze, mirages prism and sleight of hand, valkyrs ripline, etc.

Freeze can be fired off while reloading to stun a high-value target, so you can headshot them once your gun is reloaded

Prism is just a victim of power creep. It used to be one of the better powers in the game

[trunks013]

Just now, snake22222228 said:

I absolutely despise that most warframes have one or two abilities that are kind of useless. For example: Frosts Freeze, mirages prism and sleight of hand, valkyrs ripline, etc.

I just wish all four abilities of each frame would be a viable option. (I know there are some people who say: "just play however you want, doesn't matter if it ain't viable", while this is true, it still pains me to know that when i cast a certain ability, it didn't make a difference in combat. It's... hard to explain.

Hey welcome to the forums tenno ^.^ 

Don't take it the wrong way but Please never toutch my precious sleight of hand ! ( if you need intel on that she nukes sanctuary onslaught better than a saryn with that)

 

[snake22222228]

3 minutes ago, trunks013 said:

Hey welcome to the forums tenno ^.^ 

Don't take it the wrong way but Please never toutch my precious sleight of hand ! ( if you need intel on that she nukes sanctuary onslaught better than a saryn with that)

 

Oh yeah that's right, I think I saw a video about that. Sorry my bad. 😅

[Tyreaus]

5 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Why you insist on defining puzzles so narrowly is beyond me.

Because it's a common pattern in puzzles. Now, to clarify, that's one line of reasoning in whether it's a puzzle or not. That can be debated back and forth based on the conceptualization of what counts as a "puzzle". I imagine linguists would have a field day. I think, however, that debate loses track of the point. It's a term, and the important thing in terminology is that party A understands what party B means when they use that term - whether or not they agree on that definition.

I.e., as long as you've established communication, who the heck cares about specifics?

Getting back to the core: The major point espoused by most is that failure in the Lich system comes down to luck in a game where that sort of thing hasn't been established. Basically, the entire game up to that point established, "if you fail, it's your fault". Lich deaths being luck doesn't put the fault on the player—and that's fine, there's plenty of games that have an RNG element to success or failure, e.g. D&D. But the key is that that runs counter to what's established in the game prior. When we die, we're supposed to think it's our fault. That's just what the game builds up. We aren't conditioned from early-on to chalk it up to a bad roll of the dice the same way we would be in, say, D&D.

I think that's why removing the death consequence has been pretty effective. The game has established the "if you fail, it's your fault" idea surrounding death. That, however, doesn't exist around failing the Lich (and not dying).

15 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

I can agree with the lack of info, that's bad, but being killed because a failure is perfectly fine imho. 

I don't disagree at all.

As I said above, I think the major point is the expectation. Giving players agency in the odds does help, because that better matches the agency they're given elsewhere in Warframe. But you can have working RNG failure—if it's established as an expectation. In Warframe's case, it's just...not.

[vanaukas]

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I could actually totally do that. Yeah the player control mechanics are completely different, one's a 3D stick-and-move hack-and-slash while the other is a 2D fast-paced run-and-gun. But the overall experience? Pattern memorization yet with juuuuuust enough telegraphing that it's theoretically possible to beat on your first try, a focus on items to boost yourself up but they can't substitute for practice and skill, an oppressive atmosphere where the story is about overcoming monumental tasks laid out my the supernatural through sheer force of being awesome

I heavily disagree with your notion that I can't compare and contrast things. Of course I can. That's the point of game design, that's the point of design in general: taking lessons learned and seeing how they work in new situations

No, the point of game design is making a game playable. You aren't memorizing anything with the liches. By your logic, I could "contrast" minecraft with warframe because they have crafting.

[TARINunit9]

3 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

You aren't memorizing anything with the liches.

Is that where you're hung up on me?

"Trial and error" is more than memorization. You don't have to memorize anything in Mr. Chimes either, the guesses you've made are there on the screen, just like they are with Liches

5 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

By your logic, I could "contrast" minecraft with warframe because they have crafting.

Hmm, Minecraft could do with a little sprucing up in their crafting department. Especially that mechanic in Warframe where you can highlight a resource in chat and click on it to see what planets it drops from? Some little QoL like that wouldn't be too amiss in Minecraft

[Hypernaut1]

6 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

 

 

I think that's why removing the death consequence has been pretty effective. The game has established the "if you fail, it's your fault" idea surrounding death. That, however, doesn't exist around failing the Lich (and not dying).

I don't disagree at all.

 

Is it though? You still fail right? It's not like they give you multiple chances until you get it right. The only difference is that there is no kill animation to hurt peoples feelings. They simply made the cost of failing less. 

Personally, I didn't see losing a life to be a big deal at all. So, there is not really much of a difference. 

[General-Pacman]

UO: Removing the death-by-wrong-guess on liches was dumb and completely unnecessary. Complaining about that is like complaning about video games having hidden traps in their levels. The first time you encounter each trap, you'll probably fall into them because you can't know where they are beforehand. You'll have to replay the level several times until you manage to dodge them all, and that's it. That is neither good nor bad game design, it's just game design.

Edited April 21, 2020 by General-Pacman

[vanaukas]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

"Trial and error" is more than memorization. You don't have to memorize anything in Mr. Chimes either, the guesses you've made are there on the screen, just like they are with Liches

No, Mr Chimes  it's a classic memory game with cards: https://www.memory-improvement-tips.com/free-online-memory-games.html

Contrasting things is not the same as saying "this is good / this is bad" without taking the context into account and acting like it doesn't matter. It's like comapring rock-paper-sccisors with a puzzle based on "how much fun" you got on each one (wich basically is: "That is correct. That was my point. They aren't comparable, they're contrasting. Because Mr. Chimes is fun while the old Liches were not fun"). Contrasting MECHANICS is a whole different thing and we could be arguing about shadow of mordor as a succesful "personal nemesis system" rather than a memorizing game.

[Tyreaus]

22 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Is it though? You still fail right? It's not like they give you multiple chances until you get it right. The only difference is that there is no kill animation to hurt peoples feelings. They simply made the cost of failing less. 

This is just my viewpoint but: it's because, as I mentioned, that Warframe has a "if you die, it's your fault" idea established. Mission failures also establish that. But there isn't really that much of a way to establish "if you fail in general, it's your fault". Every kind of failure has to establish that in their own way. Lich rolls, by themselves, don't do that. They establish that it isn't the player's fault, because it comes down to luck and the player is made pretty well aware of that. The problem with the kill animation is that Warframe already has the "if you die, it's your fault" idea. So dying by the Lich before would give both "it's your fault" and "it's just bad luck".

I think that's also why people have different views on the entire thing in the first place, because people place different emphasis on both of those conflicting concepts. I think that's also why it doesn't seem like it makes that much of a difference to you, because the death connection isn't meaningful in the first place. But removing the death guarantees that the notion that it's the player's fault gets discarded entirely.

Basically: death tells player they ducked up, luck tells player it's a bad roll. Both don't work together—only one message gets through, usually. So people emphasize one or the other. People who emphasize the former are better off with death removed. People who don't, don't really care, and probably don't see what the fuss is about.

EDIT: Though yes, there are some people who are still displeased by the random failure state. That group is just much smaller than the group that's upset by the random failure state and (er, or?) the death consequence. Being a subset and all.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Tyreaus

[Oreades]

1 hour ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Just because you don't like the puzzle mechanic doesn't make it not a puzzle.

You're right, the not being a puzzle bit is what makes it not a puzzle. 

 

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Quarky said:

Conclave deserves attention from DE.

Specially Lunaro. I liked the little game mode, but almost no matches found.

[(NSW)Quarky]

Just now, Kaotyke said:

I liked the little [lunaro] game mode

OOF. Now that's an unpopular opinion 😂

[Oreades]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Quarky said:

OOF. Now that's an unpopular opinion 😂

I dunno I could actually see myself enjoying Lunaro or maybe even watching it. 

[SpicyDinosaur]

14 minutes ago, Oreades said:

You're right, the not being a puzzle bit is what makes it not a puzzle. 

 

it's pointless to reach out and try to understand the other side of an argument when those on that side are being deliberately obtuse and contrarian

[redindy]

I really enjoyed fighting the wolf, and wish more field bosses were like him.