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Encrypted Drop Tables 2.0


AneiDoru
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Previous Thread that was locked: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/118039-encrypted-drop-tables/

Reddit topic: http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1o3jzr/1030_rewarddrop_tables_where_are_they/

 

I thought I should give my 2 cents on this debacle.

Wanting to know what drops where and how often is not hacking,

Wanting to find out if the drop rates are bugged is not reverse engineering.

Wanting to know where to get the last part of a weapon/frame you have been building for months is not spoilering.

The devs seem to be under the impression that transparency itself is taking away the experience of playing the game.

The drop tables by default were a way to make sure people weren't wasting keys for the wrong things, or knowing WHERE to grind. Most if not all of DE's target audience Is OK with grinding, but taking away a valuable resource to tell us where is not going to do anything but make people really mad.

Needless to say, the thread before this was locked because people were planning to boycott instead of giving constructive criticism. I myself am saddened by this absolutely and overwhelmingly, past the point of embarrassingly obvious lack of transparency on DE's part because of the single reason that they are effectively making it impossible for drop tables to continue. I heard that the devs were going to implement an in-game drop table, that would be the only way to appease people right now, besides putting the drop data back where it was before, and since that is a no-go because somehow wanting to know what drops where is hacking or reverse-engineering the game, that's not a possibility.

Also, I would like it if the discussion stays away from the topic of boycotting the game, since that was why the last thread was locked.

EDIT: Changed the wording on the descriptions of one of the links.

Edited by AneiDoru
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I thought they locked it because it was just bad press as usual? :O

They said they're discussing it and have taken our feedback on board. Since that, I doubt any other thread will survive nearly as long because "We've already covered this ground."

No, if you checked the last few posts before Megan locked it, you'd see they weren't exactly talking about the drop tables.

 

Who cares what they think? They're dead wrong on this, and encrypting the drop tables without offering a viable alternative is a bad move. Transparency, DE. Don't be idiots and don't be jerks.

They are the devs, if we were talk like that to them they would never change. I agree about the viable alternative though. And I stated before that I wanted the drop tables to stay in, even before they were encrypted. Now that they are, I have decided to speak about what not only I as one person want, but on behalf of a large portion of their fans would want.

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Oh, I was there, I assure you.

While it did get entirely off topic, it would have been locked at that point anyway. I have no doubt about that, it's how it usually goes down.

You forgot to quote me but I agree. I just thought that the discussion, even though it seemed like the opposite, needed to be discussed, regardless of how I or anyone else felt or still feel about the situation.

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DE shouldn't have changed drop tables to a per enemy system if they didn't want to release info on drop tables.  Without the drop tables, people have to aimlessly wander around after every drop table change and even when there hasn't been changes.

 

Making players waste time trying to even find the best place to get basic mods like serration and the like isn't going to help player retention.  I have a clan mate that played over 80 hours without serration dropping.  The only thing that kept him grinding like that is that he knew he was grinding the right mobs and would eventually get one.

 

I had another clan mate that was grinding tower survival for a latron prime barrel for close to 12 hours before I linked him the data mined reward tables showing that it wasn't there.  He was ready to rq the game for an extended time until I showed him those tables.  Of course now he can't even know if the barrel was added back so he's still not ready to go back to grinding for it again.

 

DE just needs to release the drop tables themselves until they can actually implement a system in game to provide this information.  And screw the rest of the industry, not providing this info isn't helping the player base at all.  Even with the drop table info on hand, people often still had to grind an inoordinate amount of time to get what they wanted.

Edited by Aggh
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DE shouldn't have changed drop tables to a per enemy system if they didn't want to release info on drop tables.  Without the drop tables, people have to aimlessly wander around after every drop table change and even when there hasn't been changes.

 

Making players waste time trying to even find the best place to get basic mods like serration and the like isn't going to help player retention.  I have a clan mate that played over 80 hours without serration dropping.  The only thing that kept him grinding like that is that he knew he was grinding the right mobs and would eventually get one.

 

I had another clan mate that was grinding tower survival for a latron prime barrel for close to 12 hours before I linked him the data mined reward tables showing that it wasn't there.  He was ready to rq the game for an extended time until I showed him those tables.  Of course now he can't even know if the barrel was added back so he's still not ready to go back to grinding for it again.

 

DE just needs to release the drop tables themselves until they can actually implement a system in game to provide this information.  And screw the rest of the industry, not providing this info isn't helping the player base at all.  Even with the drop table info on hand, people often still had to grind an inoordinate amount of time to get what they wanted.

You are right about that. This game is different than others. it isn't like Borderlands, I believe it is more like WoW or Neverwinter, or not even that. They can't just go on other developer's info because their game is so different from anything else! Just because someone who made a different game than theirs told them that's not how they would do it doesn't mean they should do a 180! It's a massive misinterpretation of information!

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Sorry, but if they don't like listening to us then I guess we won't give them money.

Threatening a boycott rarely works.  They're never organized well enough to make a difference and most people break down and spend money eventually anyways.  It's even more pointless since we actually have a dev team here that's actually willing to engage in conversation with us about the issue at hand.

Edited by Aggh
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I think the main concern the devs have is that the datamining process that reveals the drop table information also reveals potential information for hacking. If that is the case, why not make a separate file that just presents the drops information that is easily accessible by miners or just publish it on the wiki page.

 

Making us run around aimlessly farming for specific things is extremely draining, and pointlessly frustrating (on top of dealing with the RNG). I was raging with the Phobos boss drops before they fixed the rates and that was just with knowing what drops we are getting. Imagine running around aimlessly wasting time on missions that will never drop the parts you need and worse, not even knowing it. Players will definitely burn out faster this way since they don't have any way of gauging progress in the game, especially once we unlock all the planets and maps.

 

Unrelated note, have they fixed the non-host survival map key drop issue on the 15 min mark?

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They encrypted it because they didn't want us to be able to call them on their BS with datamined evidence.

 

They don't want to have to issue any more apologies.

 

That is unfortunately a very real possibility as we have no clue on the extent of bans and cheats being enacted or how it pertains to the actual datamining process. All I remember from the data published by Pwnatron and other newer dataminers were just tables describing probability percentages on drops for various mission types (normal and void) which were immensely helpful along with formulas describing damage and armor calculations. I don't really know how that data can help pinpoint weaknesses in core game programming code for hacking but I am not a programmer, so that stuff is over my head. 

 

I would like to add that us finding errors on the data tables can be helpful for them as feedback but they probably get a lot more angry posts/messages on 'FIX IT NOW', which is unhelpful.

Edited by Tubercle1801
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Look at the evidence:

 

1. Players complained about Forma reward rates being FUBAR.

2. DE said, without any statistical evidence to back it up, that they were fine and RNG was just being RNG.

3. A few dedicated players datamined the actual reward rates which were indeed qutie FUBAR.

4. DE can't argue with the datamined evidence and goes through with an apology (which to their credit included free Platinum).

 

I doubt they intentionally had the Forma reward rates set so low on purpose, but the fact is that they flat out refused to look into it until they were presented with datamined evidence. Such evidence is no longer available to us players in the future, so who knows what else is being FUBAR without DE bothering to investigate it?

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It's not just the drop tables that are encrypted. The issue here is that if people were able to datamine and extract the drop tables, then there was nothing really stopping them from datamining other data from the game, including code and data that would let them reverse engineer the game.

 

Also if it's something that's listed in their TOS/EULA, then they have every right to take as many precautionary measures as they want to prevent users from violating it, including anti-cheating software, encrypting the data, and so on.

 

Please remember that DE communicates with the Warframe playerbase much more than many other developers and producers usually do. When enough players put forward a request or complaint, then DE looks into it and changes it if need be.

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Please remember that DE communicates with the Warframe playerbase much more than many other developers and producers usually do. When enough players put forward a request or complaint, then DE looks into it and changes it if need be.



Allow me to laugh out loud.

Have they said what Djinn's Fatal Attraction actually does yet?

Sure they communicate a lot, but most of it is of no real substance. Stuff in the Livestream and such are not raw numbers or any solid information like that. They are great at creating a community for their players, but they are horrible at providing actual information about how the game works. Edited by Brimir
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It's not just the drop tables that are encrypted. The issue here is that if people were able to datamine and extract the drop tables, then there was nothing really stopping them from datamining other data from the game, including code and data that would let them reverse engineer the game.

 

Also if it's something that's listed in their TOS/EULA, then they have every right to take as many precautionary measures as they want to prevent users from violating it, including anti-cheating software, encrypting the data, and so on.

 

Please remember that DE communicates with the Warframe playerbase much more than many other developers and producers usually do. When enough players put forward a request or complaint, then DE looks into it and changes it if need be.

 

Ah, that clarifies the issue a lot! Thanks!

 

The current issue of this post is that drop tables are really useful to the players but now we don't have access to it. A suggested solution would be to publish it themselves then or copy the files that just describes data tables to the wiki site or something. It at least gives players that use the wiki as a resource to work with stuff.

 

DE does communicate more regarding the game progression to its player base, which is awesome!! On a personal note, apologies are a nice touch but the plat that comes with it kinda spoils the player base (they would want more now!!!!).

 

I just got back to the game after about 2 months hiatus and I definitely would be lost without the drop tables on the new orokin shinies. Please at least consider player accessibility to drop data that would make the game more fun to play instead of a giant black aimless box.  

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Allow me to laugh out loud.

Have they said what Djinn's Fatal Attraction actually does yet?

Sure they communicate a lot, but most of it is of no real substance. Stuff in the Livestream and such are not raw numbers or any solid information like that. They are great at creating a community for their players, but they are horrible at providing actual information about how the game works.

Yes, they did.  It attracts enemies and then does an AoE attack.  Ranking the Fatal Attraction mod increases the range and damage.

 

They haven't given values, damage types, or anything like that.  But they've given the basic mechanic of what it does.

 

I also agree that they have the right to encrypt the tables if they want.  That doesn't prevent me from not liking it, or the lack of information, and taking my money elsewhere.  Presumably DE wants my money.  If they want it, they'll have to play ball and give me information so I can play the game and give useful feedback.

 

This isn't rocket science; it's a transaction.  If either of us don't like the terms of the transaction, we can walk away without going through with it.

 

I don't have to buy the game on their terms; I can simply not buy it at all and go elsewhere.  They don't have to sell it to me on my terms.  They can just not sell it.

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The fact of the matter is, they are allowed to encrypt their own data, but they will lose a lot of players when people don't know where to get things. Like, I've been looking for a Fire Storm mod for the past week, farming toxic ancients wherever I had the chance. But, with this last update, they changed the drop tables on top of making it impossible for me to find where this mod still drops. For all I know, it could have been removed from the drop table. It is strongly discouraging for me to be farming blind for this mod, being I systematically farm for things, Fire Storm being the next thing on the checklist, followed by Rhino. Until I can find this mod, I won't get that satisfaction for finding it. I don't care how long I have to farm to get it, just show me where I need to farm.

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