Dev Workshop: Railjack Revisited Information

[Vit0Corleone]

1 minute ago, o0Despair0o said:

Well, damn.

 

I still haven't gotten my hands on the glorious Void Hole thanks to RNGesus (seriously increase the frickin drop chance, people) and it's duration is getting nerfed into non existence.

That's going to depend on what they mean with "Increased attraction strength".

Typically, the reason why you want Void Hole to last longer is because it takes a while to pull the enemies in.

If they get pulled from farther away and faster, then reducing the duration isn't going to affect much how long it takes to dispatch a group of enemies.

[LSG501]

30 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Avionics Changes: 

When it comes to Avionics changes, there’s an overarching goal: Simplify Avionic management. 

• Each Integrated Avionic Type will now only exist with a single Manufacturer rather than three Manufacturer flavors.
• The ‘retired’ Integrated Avionics will be removed from players inventory via a script.
• The remaining Integrated Avionic for each Type will take on the values of the previously highest valued Avionic of it’s Type.
• ALL Dirac used to upgrade Integrated Avionics will be refunded. This applies to both retired and remaining Avionics.
• ALL remaining Integrated Avionics will have their Upgrades drained.

Honestly... this sounds like we're losing mods that we already have unless they're the 'chosen' flavour....  if this is the case it screams of band aid fix to getting players into railjacks again.   As others have said, if you have a specific avionic (say a bulkhead with 4 dots) this should be a direct conversion to the final flavour, with all rankings reset and dirac etc refunded. 

 

30 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Countermeasures

Initial use cost of 5 energy, double cost if used again within 4 secs up to a cap of 40 energy (5/10/20/40)

Why the increasing costs...

 

30 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Blackout Pulse

Display range stat on all marked targets while projectile is in flight

Increased radius from 100 to 200

Increased damage from 250 to 500

Honestly, I'd rather have a pulse from the railjack rather projectile based...

 

30 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Particle Ram

Requires forward velocity to be active

Increased speed of projectile when its launched

Increased length of projectile so targets stay within the damage field as long as they did before with slower projectile

First impressions, seems more about using energy more if it doesn't reactivate when you start moving again (doesn't say).... currently we can 'reverse' and shoot while this is active, and this sounds like that won't work anymore so all in all it feels like a nerf in all honesty.

 

30 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Void Hole

 

Decreased duration from 25 to 12 secs

Increased attraction strength

An already 'meta' mod arguably getting a buff imo, while yes the duration is shorter it 'should' pull more in due to the stronger attraction strength...

 

Bigger issue than those bits above though is that nothing mentioned i that list changes anything for me, nothing there is changing the fundamental reasons why I'm not playing railjack. 

• I'm literally doing the same missions over and over hoping for rng stat rewards just so I can get parts so I can do the same missions again but faster, which would be fine if it wasn't for....
• Railjack is completely disconnected from the rest of warframe, it's worse than PoE and OV in that regard and any rewards that crossover such as relics can usually be gained faster in other missions.  Which is a bit weird considering Steve said this would be more connected compared with other 'open worlds'.
• (little off topic but still relevant) While the intention of Scarlet spear is to test 'team link' and pull it all together, imo all scarlet spear has shown is that the system isn't suited to warframe unless you 'fake' the other teams progress.  At the most simple level being reliant on the other linked teams speed of progress can cause the mission I'm in to far longer than it needs to.
• Access to the sentient ship for the shedu (drop rate isn't exactly great either) being limited access... we complained about this with eidolons and other parts of the game, yet we get it again here, it's like you weren't listening.  I'd rather live without the shedu than try and time my gaming time to match a part of the game.
• I got bored doing the railjack missions because essentially I didn't come to warframe to fly around in a big ship
• Lack of variation...  changing the number of enemies, isn't going to change the fact there are only limited number of maps.
• To be perfectly honest, imo trying to shoot enemies with railjack weapons is annoying, it's far easier to just kill them in archwing.... which kind of defeats the point in having weapons on the railjack...
• I do not enjoy micromanagement of things and railjack is far too heavy on this imo.  I don't want to have to keep doing ammo mid mission and stopping to put out fires or kill enemy invasions all the time.... what's the point in the ship having AI if we still need to do everything.
• The ironic thing is I had more fun flying in my archwing (although I'd prefer the old movement system back or even a toggle, same goes for titania) in the missions than I did flying the railjack purely because it's closer to a warfame in how it behaves.  I've said it before in other threads, the railjack maps would have made great archwing maps, if scaled appropriately. 

 

[Rage_Inducer]

The doubled base speed is great and all but I really do not agree with the lowering of boost speed by such a factor. This change would effectively reduce the maximum speed by half and the further increase in boost cost would reduce the distance that can be travelled with the current stamina bar even further.
I get what you're trying to do with the railjack however reducing the distance it can travel by so much will just make people use archwing instead.
I know this because I only ever got to stop people from flying out by showcasing the blinding speed of my ship and the ease with which it can dodge incoming fire.
Normal gameplay gives us nimble space ninjas; the transition to a relatively slow ship that will likely not be able to dodge ramsleds let alone the unforgiving bullet rain of multiple crew ships will not be a very smooth one.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Pacing Changes:

• Added Caps for the amount of simultaneous Railjack Hazards (Fire, Electric, and Breaches). Your Railjack can only have 1 of each Hazard active at a time.

So how will the Fire Suppression Avionic be changed to reflect this?

[DrivaMain]

6 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I got bored doing the railjack missions because essentially I didn't come to warframe to fly around in a big ship

Then any railjack update will never satisfy you because you never liked space arcade combat in the first place. DE will FORCE railjack into everything, so You should consider to jump ships before that happens. Unless you are willing to adapt if it does tho.

[kinglineholt]

1 hour ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

good question. If we have a mod that doesn't have the manufacturer you are going with, will we just be stripped of that mod with nothing in its place?

I hope it just converts to the new manufacturer and you don't lose the mods. That would be lame

[DrivaMain]

Alright putting quoting people out of the way. Here is my problems with the revisions.

1. Particle Ram : This could be a massive nerf to the avionic because you have to move your railjack forward to allow it to do damage. I understand that you want to prevent AFK farming by parking your railjack and let the avionic do it’s thing, but some solo players want to do Railjack missions in archwing so they use Particle Ram to allow the ship to do some damage instead of just standing there being a big target practice for the enemy. I would say make the avionic deal less damage if the railjack is standing still and allow moving backwards and sideway to trigger the damage too

2. Boost Nerf : This goes against Warframe’s freedom of mobility. Sure base speed is faster but nerfing the boost multiplier and making boost last shorter makes it feel less satisfying and makes the strafing and shoot tactic almost unusable and very impractical. I say revert the nerf.

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

59 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Pacing Changes:

• Added Caps for the amount of simultaneous Railjack Hazards (Fire, Electric, and Breaches). Your Railjack can only have 1 of each Hazard active at a time.
• Drastically decreased the frequency of RJ Hazard types.
• Made each RJ Hazard type more harmful to the ship.

But... why? I mean it's kinda was a gameplay loop for engi.

P.S. You kinda work towards making this mode more popular. But i guess you forgot something -- reason to play it. Just connect it with main gaem. Add some arcanes, make it the way to farm prime parts (maybe for the vaulted stuff, this S#&$ grows and grows), some Kuva forstress stuff, like kuva farm, or Lich headquater with direct assasination mission. Make a reasonable way to get Umbra forma after all... Invent a pet shop with a Kubrow breeding stuff. Warframe augments -- i guess for new player this is kinda really pain, trying to collect em all. Add regular forma after all. 

For now it is a 3 (4) weapons, all of em are tradable. I guess some lazy ass are gratefull for this, but i don't think somebody besides veterans will decide to try this mode then he have alternative way to spend time.

Specially now. I mean i love this mode, but i'm basically finished it. And then Scarlet Spear will over, nobody ever will know RJ exist. I saw even Eidolon hunters in recruting novadays, but RJ just a "take it and leave it" type of mission. And it's only gonna get worse when you half instrincts farm.

 

52 minutes ago, Takkov said:

wait, so the avionics that I used for reasons like cost efficency in some cases, even if they have a lower max effect are going to be removed?

That's a good point! Was kinda intresting part, even bad UI does not distract me.

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

Hopefully with the vailence transfur feature the zekti and levan reactors can go to 100 capacity as well so yoi dont half to rely on massive rng to get 2 vidat reactors to combind into one 

Id like this becouse there are sertint effects you can only get on zekti and levan reactors that are prity good and it would help people out to get the purfict railjack they want with the purfict effects they want  and not half to worry about just geting vidar reactors 

And if the avionics are geting increast to the highest value of the houses they can go to usualy being 13 that means were going to need a lot of capacity to be able to use the full effect of the avionics 

 

 

[SpicyDinosaur]

These are not solutions to the railjack problem. Especially since they are so dramatic, and ya'll tend to make a change then revisit it after a year at the earliest. The changes should be significantly lessened and then it needs to be revisited shortly after testing.

 

The real issue with railjack is there is no goal to work towards other than intrinsics gain. I just now sped through a few missions to finish mine before the changes because I have no idea what these drastic changes are going to do overall. They don't look good on paper.

 

You continuously struggle to give us a reason to work towards a goal, and when you do, a few people cry on the forums and you reverse changes, make it dramatically easier, etc because of a few loud and persistent players.

 

Give me a good reason to keep playing now that my intrinsics are maxed. Even putting out command would just mean more intrinsics farming. You have a stick but you've forgotten the carrot. I improve my railjack to get more stuff to improve my railjack etc etc etc I play a missions to get more intrinsics to play a mission ad nauseum. Something is missing and none of your changes address it. If anything, the decreased difficulty makes me want to avoid a fun part of the game because now it will end up just being like any other mission challenge wise.

[kyori]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

The remaining Integrated Avionic for each Type will take on the values of the previously highest valued Avionic of it’s Type.

Does that also mean the capacity or you all forget to take that into account? If all are 13 then die, highest reactor only gives 100... lol

Also... why most battle abilities depend on a projectile to activate? It's a hassle if flying in an area of empty space without space rocks etc for the projectile to hit and activate the power. You guys neglected this aspect?

Again, among the tenno picked to test all these changes, did you all check if they have most RJ stuffs... or do any of them didn't even have RJ to start with? lol... oh wait, they will be going to test it in a dev-build rather than using their own account eh... ok fair enough. lol

[SpicyDinosaur]

23 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Alright putting quoting people out of the way. Here is my problems with the revisions.

1. Particle Ram : This could be a massive nerf to the avionic because you have to move your railjack forward to allow it to do damage. I understand that you want to prevent AFK farming by parking your railjack and let the avionic do it’s thing, but some solo players want to do Railjack missions in archwing so they use Particle Ram to allow the ship to do some damage instead of just standing there being a big target practice for the enemy. I would say make the avionic deal less damage if the railjack is standing still and allow moving backwards and sideway to trigger the damage too

2. Boost Nerf : This goes against Warframe’s freedom of mobility. Sure base speed is faster but nerfing the boost multiplier and making boost last shorter makes it feel less satisfying and makes the strafing and shoot tactic almost unusable and very impractical. I say revert the nerf.

yea I use Particle Ram to handle fighters when I solo. I'm not sure why it is being nerfed or if that nerf is a good idea. I can just flip to void hole, which will still be good imo with the changes, so it's not like it will hobble me. I just preferred using that aspect of the avionic and the nerf seems unreasonable.

[ThreeFeetOfMagic]

43 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

Well, damn.

 

I still haven't gotten my hands on the glorious Void Hole thanks to RNGesus (seriously increase the frickin drop chance, people) and it's duration is getting nerfed into non existence.

Enemies health is halved, larger vacuum, and void holes pull will be stronger. It's still gonna be the most used and effective mod by far. If the pull rate is made stronger honestly it'd be better imo. Sometimes it takes forever to pull enemies in even if you loop around them to slow their speed by making them turn. 

[Vit0Corleone]

Does anyone have any idea what they mean with "Vortex is now attached to the front of your Railjack" in regards to Munitions Vortex?

Currently the way this is used is to deploy it near a group of enemies, shoot it to fill it with damage, and then activate to explode the nearby enemy ships ( kinda like Nova's antimatter drop ).

Attached to the Railjack almost sounds like we aren't going to be able to pump it with damage anymore ( how would we shoot something attached to our own RJ? ..), and instead will have to rely on whatever damage the enemies try to do to us.

If this is the case, they are basically killing Munitions Vortex, the best battle avionics we have..

[LSG501]

43 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Then any railjack update will never satisfy you because you never liked space arcade combat in the first place. DE will FORCE railjack into everything, so You should consider to jump ships before that happens. Unless you are willing to adapt if it does tho.

Actually you can like space arcade and not like railjack... shockingly I'm in that boat because I do actually like space combat games but usually they're designed with it in mind, rather than being another 'bolt on' to another game type.   You'd have even seen I said I liked the maps if I'm using archwings, just not with the railjacks....

I know DE will FORCE us to use stuff we don't like, they're already sticking railjack in nightwave.....

[-AncientWarrior-]

Thanks for the update .. dropping alot of changes here .. will be interesting to see the roll-on affects of so many .. usually this goes badly, but with it being tested it will be .. interesting 🙂

Most of the changes are looking good, but can you please allow us 10-10-10-10 to get more intrinsics .. having the cap there stops us actually playing as we already have everything else .. maybe use intrinsics to upgrade reactors,engines and shield arrays etc..

Keep safe DE .. thanks again

[Vit0Corleone]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

Actually you can like space arcade and not like railjack... shockingly I'm in that boat because I do actually like space combat games but usually they're designed with it in mind, rather than being another 'bolt on' to another game type.   You'd have even seen I said I liked the maps if I'm using archwings, just not with the railjacks....

I know DE will FORCE us to use stuff we don't like, they're already sticking railjack in nightwave.....

By that measure, DE is forcing us to do Eidolons, Profit Taker, Index, Open worlds.. pick your poison.

There's no way they are going to please everyone. If there's a specific content you don't enjoy playing, than don't. You can always farm plat instead and buy the rewards from someone else.

[UnderRevision]

12 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

yea I use Particle Ram to handle fighters when I solo. I'm not sure why it is being nerfed or if that nerf is a good idea. I can just flip to void hole, which will still be good imo with the changes, so it's not like it will hobble me. I just preferred using that aspect of the avionic and the nerf seems unreasonable.

Perhaps the better thing to do would be to make a new avionic that fills that defensive niche while dedicating the ram to offense.  If the use being lost is protecting your Railjack while solo and off the ship, an avionic that puts a protective barrier up, possibly with a trade-off on mobility or weapon use so that it isn't just consequence free immunity forever, could do the job.  Then it becomes a choice based on how you want to play rather than "get this one avionic and use it for everything all the time".

[SpicyDinosaur]

1 minute ago, UnderRevision said:

Perhaps the better thing to do would be to make a new avionic that fills that defensive niche while dedicating the ram to offense.  If the use being lost is protecting your Railjack while solo and off the ship, an avionic that puts a protective barrier up, possibly with a trade-off on mobility or weapon use so that it isn't just consequence free immunity forever, could do the job.  Then it becomes a choice based on how you want to play rather than "get this one avionic and use it for everything all the time".

it doesn't protect my railjack afaik. I have all the defensive stuff to max out my RJ's survability. What it does is make ships that are flying around me and happen to bump it or fly through it ta\ke significant damage. It's a passively offensive avionic. I realize they may not have wanted that but the alternatives are actually more effective.

 

I would be okay with any movement causing it to do damage, as someone suggested, and I really like the suggestion that it just does less dmg when you are stationary.

[Ramflare]

Great. Can we get multiple appearance/avionics loadouts for our railjacks? Just like every other piece of gear - I don't want to fiddle with everything each time I want a change of pace.

Something vaguely resembling a tutorial is essential too! Making it easier won't stop everyone from running around like headless chickens

 

[LSG501]

30 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

By that measure, DE is forcing us to do Eidolons, Profit Taker, Index, Open worlds.. pick your poison.

There's no way they are going to please everyone. If there's a specific content you don't enjoy playing, than don't. You can always farm plat instead and buy the rewards from someone else.

The poster I was replying to is implying it will be 'forced' into all aspects to the game, personally I hope it won't be because that probably would cause me to leave the game.

Everything else you mention is optional and as such I don't play it if I don't like it... in fact I'm not playing railjack (outside of a few scarlet spear missions) either. 

Having said that, railjack has the same issues we'd been raising with open worlds... they're disconnected and once they're done, they're done, just in the case of railjack it's even worse because it has no connection to anything else but railjack.

Also, you're right they're not going to please everyone but you also need to please the majority, can we honestly say railjack (let alone liches and scarlet spear) has done that when you consider the 'tension' with the game at the moment.  I don't think you can in all honesty.

[UnderRevision]

13 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

It's a passively offensive avionic. I realize they may not have wanted that but the alternatives are actually more effective.

I was interpreting if from the standpoint of it being protective by killing the enemies as they approach in their eternally repeating attack runs, thus taking them out of the battle and no longer damaging your ship.  The same way parking in a debris field makes some of them splatter themselves on the rocks.  Neither option directly makes your ship tougher more resistant to enemy fire, but it kills the enemies and lets the ship's regenerating shields take care of the rest without player input.  The end result being that your ship is safer.  It doesn't seem like it'd be faster or more efficient at actually getting through the enemies than actively attacking with the ram or Void Hole or something, so I was reading the issue as it being a nerf to the knock-on benefits to survival.  Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the purpose though. 

[anarchy753]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Avionics Changes: 

When it comes to Avionics changes, there’s an overarching goal: Simplify Avionic management. 

• Each Integrated Avionic Type will now only exist with a single Manufacturer rather than three Manufacturer flavors.
• The ‘retired’ Integrated Avionics will be removed from players inventory via a script.
• The remaining Integrated Avionic for each Type will take on the values of the previously highest valued Avionic of it’s Type.
• ALL Dirac used to upgrade Integrated Avionics will be refunded. This applies to both retired and remaining Avionics.
• ALL remaining Integrated Avionics will have their Upgrades drained.

That is downright pathetic. Considering that many avionics have several houses with competitive value with lower drain, the decision to delete all but one is ridiculous.

People have put a lot of work into farming them, people have paid good money to trade for the version they want, people have paid money to buy a specific one from your store, and without compensation you will just be deleting what they've spent money on.

Considering some of the very core mods are likely to be affected by this, like Hull Weave and Predator, are we really going to just lose our hard earnt armour and critical chance with nothing but "haha now go farm another 0.1% drop!" Refunding Dirac, a resource Scarlet Spear completely devalued anyway, is in no way fair compensation.

There is no question that all currently obtained avionics should be kept, or converted to the new version of them.

At the very least, convert the 2 best houses, and only "remove" the objectively worst ones that drop in swathes every mission.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

2 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

Was this really needed?

Bluntly? Yes. It completely wrecked verismilitude to have boarding parties that have as much health as eidolons while the queens' elite kuva lancers are only mildly better than the lancers you fight everywhere else. Much more importantly, gameplay wise it served to soft lock tenno without effective weapons from the entire game mode, making it seem even more of a content island than before. Even worse than that, though, is how it basically just resulted in enemies being even bigger bullet sponges, padding out railjack missions artificially. There was absolutely no reason for a Grokstahd officer to have more health than three eidolons put together.

[Nazzami]

I would assume that the Integrated Avionic are also getting a drain change as well as is if they go of best in slot that would also meant highest drain for every one of them.