Guen, 𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝑲𝒖𝒗𝒂 𝑾𝒂𝒓𝒇𝒓𝒂𝒎𝒆 🌶️ (Mutalist Frame #1) [𝗪𝗜𝗧𝗛 𝗔𝗥𝗧!]

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Also I wasn’t trying to create a version of adaptation per say but the fact that the Liches evolved to fight the frame used to kill them and have resistances of their own, figured add a similar aspect to the frame. Where she develops a resistance to the factions that tries to kill her. It would be her own version of armor that is different from others. I was mainly trying to focus on the kuva aspect of the concept while using Liches and kuva guardians as examples of what she would be capable of. 

Ok, i think i understand this one now, tell me if i’m mistaken. You’re talking about an ability that grants temporary invulnerability. During this grace period, whichever type of enemy attacks her most frequently does almost no damage to Ajel for a limited time.

If this is the case i think this may be subject to the same argument i made before about it being OP. The reason i say this is because generally missions tend to contain mostly the same type (or faction) of enemies. Meaning this ability would essentially make you invulnerable to enemy attacks for possibly 10-12 seconds, or however long the ability lasts. Again, tell me if i’m misunderstanding.

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

As for 8). I was referring to that the abilities I listed would have synergy with each other. As in they can be used together. Like when you take Rhino’s Ironclad Charge augment to buff your armor which when using iron skin would have a larger amount of health. Then also use Iron Shrapnel augment which turns the iron skin into explosive puncture damage based on the amount of health iron skin has. Or like using Loki’s disarm to force all enemies to come closer to their deaths while using his decoy to lure them all into a single spot for total nuking.

I agree, whatever abilities, build, or augment mods i end up settling on one thing i will try to maintain is synergy between them so players are encouraged to diversify their play styles for different situations and use all of their abilities to maximize both offensive and defensive play styles. This is something i may forget to do and i may need somebody like you to remind me to continue to create overlap between different aspects of this frame.

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

With the abilities I listed, the synergy would be creating a very strong ally to fight along side you. Your own Kuva Guardian if that make sense. Imagine if Wukong could buff his clone. Except this would be a single Lich. That would be a strategic way to utilize all the abilities I mentioned. Turning yourself into some Gruesome Twosome.

I see what you mean here, but i would rather make Ajel more of an independent frame. There are already so many frames known for having allies to accompany them, like khora, wukong, and excalibur umbra (kind of) that id rather this warframe go solo for the most part. I’m not saying she won’t have some kuva guardian’s helping her out, or at least something like that, but something i would really like to avoid is Ajel having to depend on them for her survival. She’s definitely going to come with some backup, for sure, but her build isn’t going to revolve around them.

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

What do you guys think about me changing Ajel’s name to Kamala. I know it doesn't sound quite as cool be here’s why i’m thinking of changing it.

I originally chose the name Ajel for a different warframe idea (which i scrapped because it didn't fit into the warframe universe at all but that’s beside the point). Anyway, that warframes theme was death, which is why i chose Ajel (Meaning death)

But this warframe is a little different. This warframe isn't about death, it’s about kuva. So, i did some research and found out that kuva means lotus in Sanskrit, and Kamala also means lotus in Sanskrit, also it makes sense that her name would start with a k.

So, what do you guys think? Should i change her name or leave it as is?

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Mentor0fHeroes said:

What do you guys think about me changing Ajel’s name to Kamala. I know it doesn't sound quite as cool be here’s why i’m thinking of changing it.

I originally chose the name Ajel for a different warframe idea (which i scrapped because it didn't fit into the warframe universe at all but that’s beside the point). Anyway, that warframes theme was death, which is why i chose Ajel (Meaning death)

But this warframe is a little different. This warframe isn't about death, it’s about kuva. So, i did some research and found out that kuva means lotus in Sanskrit, and Kamala also means lotus in Sanskrit, also it makes sense that her name would start with a k.

So, what do you guys think? Should i change her name or leave it as is?

Kind of thinking somewhere between Furuichi or Sanguen. The first is Japanese for Old Blood. And the second is between Latin and Italian for Blood. Cause Kuva is referred to as Old Blood. 
 

To break the whole thing down for those who don’t fully understand:

1). Orokin. Oro in Italian means gold. And the orokin is sometimes referred to as the Golden Emperors.

2). The Dax warriors were given power by the orokin to fight the sentient. However with one side effect or failsafe in a sense. They cannot attack those of Orokin blood. 

3). Teshin, a Dax, could not attack the queens as long as they wielded the scepter. And the Orokin are old. Very old. Which is why the frames made from their technology are called Primes. Cause they were the first. And Kuva is supposedly Orokin blood. 

4). many names in warframe are from Latin. Some from Italian like Oro. And many other languages. But Latin is a common one I’ve noticed. 

5). Kin in Japanese means money. Which gold is known to make you money. 

So that’s where I figured out that maybe a name for a frame whose abilities are based on Old Blood, would have a name based on the Old Blood. And since Oro is Italian and Kin is Japanese that are similar. I figured a name in either Japanese or Italian would go with this concept. Also Latin is a common language in warframe and the word for blood is similar to the Italian word for blood. 

That’s just my opinion. 

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

1 hour ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Kind of thinking somewhere between Furuichi or Sanguen. The first is Japanese for Old Blood. And the second is between Latin and Italian for Blood. Cause Kuva is referred to as Old Blood.

I am on board with everything you say here. Definitely want the name to be of either latin or japanese origin (although i think i’d prefer latin) and I want it to mean old blood. Only thing is, the way the names sound dont exactly go with how the frame looks, you know? Maybe i’m just being picky but i might try turning one of those into a nickname to make it flow better. What do you think about just using Guen, short for Sanguen?

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Mentor0fHeroes said:

I am on board with everything you say here. Definitely want the name to be of either latin or japanese origin (although i think i’d prefer latin) and I want it to mean old blood. Only thing is, the way the names sound dont exactly go with how the frame looks, you know? Maybe i’m just being picky but i might try turning one of those into a nickname to make it flow better. What do you think about just using Guen, short for Sanguen?

Whatever works. 

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

17 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Considering that kuva is also referred to as Old Blood, maybe she has a lot of health(not as high as inaros) and she uses her health for creating Liches and buffing allies.

So i’ve been doing some thinking as to how we may be able to implement this idea into Guen’s build and here’s what i’ve got so far.

-1) if she is going to siphon off health it would have to apply to at least 3 of her abilities, which isn’t a huge problem, i would just have to tweak some of my existing abilities.

-2) also, the mechanic for how she siphons off her health should not replace energy, draining health should only either buff her abilities, or lessen the ammount of energy they require, and because it isn't replacing energy, abilities shouldn’t drain very much of her health. Also, Hildryn is already the frame that doesn’t need energy, not to mention, a frame that drains shields instead of energy is far more practical because you can’t kill yourself that way.

-3) In an attempt to remedy the obvious problem of accidentally killing yourself, i thought about possibly adding either an ability or passive that provides Guen with health regeneration, but i thought that would be a bit of a waste on a warframe made of kuva, especially because it would have no real explanation or connection to the frame’s origin.

-4) I then thought about making the abilities return your health, so long as certain conditions are met. for example: if i siphon off some health and energy to make an enemy my own kuva guardian, if that kuva guardian gets killed in battle, then the health i used gets returned to me, or something like that. The only problem is, not all of the abilities have a means of returning the health you spent, so that’s something that i need to work out somehow.

Anyway, thats what I've got so far. I’ll probably start making some of these changes and working out the rest of the kinks later today. Let me know if you have any ideas or suggestions on the best way to present this function is Guen.

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

Open call for any and all Guen ability ideas.

I am thinking of replacing/ changing some of Guen’s current abilities, but i’m having trouble coming up with the right fit for her. i could really use some help with brainstorming possible ability concepts for her, finished or not. They don’t have to be perfect, any idea has the potential to spark an even better one. All i’m looking for is something i can work with, a place to start from and build up from there. I’d really appreciate it, thanks.

[Velitria]

The passive would never be accepted because it isn't specific to the frame's kit in of itself. I will elaborate, Volt: builds electric charge. Saryn: makes status last longer because she has many status applications. Ash: makes slash better and longer. Banshee: sound... make weapons silent. The kuva passive should relate to what kuva is en essence, a red fluid substance that grants immortality by transferring life essence through kuva to another (Not spoilers because hardly anyone picked up on that. The queen had to push your tennos' memories out of the way and transfer hers into that body and the kuva would cause that body to take on the form of previous one at the young age of the tenno). How does this relate to a passive? Well I don't really know. The passive could be: Frame gains 25% of health and/or shields back per kill, or change an ability to instant kill any single enemy by quickly phasing the essence of kuva "soul" to the enemy in a medium range and merging with it while having the old body explode. This would be good for heavy targets and due to how it is probably going to take an amount of time to phase into the targeted enemy, wouldn't be practical otherwise with a lot of enemies. However, that isn't exactly a passive anymore, the passive to relate to that could be to explode on death causing enemies to decay over 10 seconds taking 10% hp/seconds in a 15m radius and the ability makes use of that passive for the explosion?

 

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

1 hour ago, Velitria said:

The passive would never be accepted because it isn't specific to the frame's kit in of itself. I will elaborate, Volt: builds electric charge. Saryn: makes status last longer because she has many status applications. Ash: makes slash better and longer. Banshee: sound... make weapons silent. The kuva passive should relate to what kuva is en essence, a red fluid substance that grants immortality by transferring life essence through kuva to another (Not spoilers because hardly anyone picked up on that. The queen had to push your tennos' memories out of the way and transfer hers into that body and the kuva would cause that body to take on the form of previous one at the young age of the tenno). How does this relate to a passive? Well I don't really know. The passive could be: Frame gains 25% of health and/or shields back per kill, or change an ability to instant kill any single enemy by quickly phasing the essence of kuva "soul" to the enemy in a medium range and merging with it while having the old body explode. This would be good for heavy targets and due to how it is probably going to take an amount of time to phase into the targeted enemy, wouldn't be practical otherwise with a lot of enemies. However, that isn't exactly a passive anymore, the passive to relate to that could be to explode on death causing enemies to decay over 10 seconds taking 10% hp/seconds in a 15m radius and the ability makes use of that passive for the explosion?

 

You do have a point, her current passive doesn’t really apply to the frame, and it doesn’t fallow the story at all.

I think the idea of Guen instantly killing an enemy by phasing into them would work fairly well as a third ability. If i used it, i would probably have to make the ability cost exclusively energy, as well as maybe work around some other stuff here and there to balance out her build, but i could make it work.
One problem with this idea is the exploding enemy she leaves behind. The same argument that you made about her current passive can be made about this one in my opinion. Neither the frame’s anatomy, nor her backstory provide any explanation as to why the enemies would just spontaniously combust after she exits them. Also, if that were her passive, it world only apply to one of her abilities, which is not ideal. I do acknowledge that her current passive needs some work, but i don’t think exploding enemies are the way to go. Maybe something similar, but i don’t think we've found Guen’s passive yet.

That being said, thanks for the feedback! I think there’s a good chance i will use that ability idea, even though it was supposed to be a passive. If you come up with any other passive or ability ideas i’d love to hear them.

[Velitria]

The passive being on death explosion relates to kuva because kuva transfers what your old body looks like to the new one and old one becomes consumed by the kuva. I said "explode" to get the point across, but what it's actually doing is destabilizing to the kuva and erupting into a cloud of sludge from the kuva that would degenerate anything it touches (exploding goo) which would kill anything nearby after 10 seconds by taking 10% ehp/second for 10 seconds. Kuva is volatile and the price for one life is that of others. The passive would happen when the frame dies or uses an ability that causes the old one to die. The passive doesn't "have" to be specific to the whole kit, it has to be specific to the theme. 

Let's be real here, Banshee's passive to mute gun sounds was only because she's a sound frame and had nothing to do with her kit. I wish banshee didn't suck so much outside of her sonar.

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

7 hours ago, Velitria said:

The passive being on death explosion relates to kuva because kuva transfers what your old body looks like to the new one and old one becomes consumed by the kuva. I said "explode" to get the point across, but what it's actually doing is destabilizing to the kuva and erupting into a cloud of sludge from the kuva that would degenerate anything it touches (exploding goo) which would kill anything nearby after 10 seconds by taking 10% ehp/second for 10 seconds. Kuva is volatile and the price for one life is that of others. The passive would happen when the frame dies or uses an ability that causes the old one to die. The passive doesn't "have" to be specific to the whole kit, it has to be specific to the theme. 

Let's be real here, Banshee's passive to mute gun sounds was only because she's a sound frame and had nothing to do with her kit. I wish banshee didn't suck so much outside of her sonar.

Oh ok, i think i get it now. Your talking about an ability like Saryn’s molt, accept it kills anything close by. Yeah, i think this could work, but with a few small changes.

First, i think it would be too op for it to essentially kill anything in 10 seconds. If what your talking about is an ability that can bypass an enemies shields and drain all of their health, regardless of their level, armor, or resistance, all in 10 seconds, then that’s definitely super broken. I think, if this were a part of Guen’s kit it would leave behind a cloud of kuva sludge like you said, but it would deal random status damage on nearby enemies, and that damage would be intense, but not devastating. Also, that life for a life type thing you were talking about before, wouldn’t it have already been paid? because she would have already left behind a dead body just before taking her next one. One other thing, this ability is dangerously similar to Grendel’s feast ability, luckily it does have some defining features that set it apart, so i don’t think DE would mind.

Second, i think it would work better as an aspect of one of her abilities, rather than a passive focused solely on a single ability. Here’s my logic on passives, they can apply to any single aspect of a frame, such as bullet jump, or melee attacks, or sprint speed, but if the passive has to do with the frame’s abilities it would need to apply to at least 3 of it’s abilities, otherwise it is kind of a waste. If a passive only applies to one or two of a frames abilities, it’s more of a feature of those abilities than a passive, in my opinion.

Thanks for those ideas, now I've got 2 solid ability ideas that i can work with to replace Guen’s current ones. If you come up with anything else don't hesitate.

[Velitria]

The reason it kills (non bosses) in 10 seconds is because it is actually faster to kill a level 100 corpus tech with a mk-1 braton and one toxin mod. 10 seconds is an extremely long amount of time to kill things when saryn, gara, equinox, mag, octavia..... exist with infinitely scaling damage, gara for instance: Oneshots anything by being near you, significantly quicker than 10 seconds and is very balanced due to how long 10 seconds in reality is, the high level enemies would still oneshot you in return while they are decaying if you can't tank it. Saryn's molt is actually a good picture almost. Think Loki switch teleport, you become their body and your old one explodes and decays everything in a small (3) to medium (7) radius (randomly) over the long 10 second duration. The explosion is a burst and does not linger to decay more things. This ability can't be spammed because the frame would have a limiter. The limiter could be something such as a % energy cost starting at 100% before efficiency. The percent cost is done in many games as a limiter for abilities, not to be spammed, because it deters usage and isn't a flat huge cost like 200 and requires flow just to use. Since infinite scaling already exists on some frames and weapons can already kill level 1k+ enemies, it isn't such a worry to have oneshot status as a passive since it is heavily delayed and has diminishing returns because of the cost having one of the above limiters. The on death part of the passive could connect with the enemy that killed her and make both of them create the AoE decay. However, since the decay is the set amount of HP the enemy has at a give time, things like shield osprey, or healing capabilities DE might add over time, would be enough to save them.

The ability that uses the passive is in reality just using kuva to merge with someone, the passive just so happens to explode the old body. The passive being for the frame to explode on death could be the passive of the kuva within and her passive while alive could be something else. The passive could possibly be that she cannot die and instead loses 20% of her total hp and shields with each death while triggering the kuva passive and merging with her killer. Also having minimal 1-3 second invulnerability is good, like with nidus and wukong. However, after 5 deaths she would finally die from the 0% hp, but the way she can restore her lost stats is by using the merge on enemies, restoring 5% each time with a custom UI tick counter on the hp bars. This being offset by the % energy cost would, even at maximum efficiency, cost all of your energy to restore your health back to what it was before dying. I feel that this fits the kuva theme, even though I wasn't initially thinking this would turn out to be a frame similar to old wukong defy... Pretty strange how me trying to follow theme leads me somewhere I didn't expect.

Side note: a good example of why 10 seconds is a long time, (though I don't know if you've done the three eidolons before with like a 5x3), is if this actually worked on eidolons to kill limbs, it would be so slow and impractical regardless of oneshot in 10 seconds status to use that it would never even be thought of, except for memes. Imagine it against the sergeant, or even imagine it against the only practical use case: Lephantis. Lephantis is only hard because it has a damage cap per shot that reduces any amount of damage, no matter how high, by a ratio. The 10 seconds is only practical against something that has a damage cap is why I went through the effort of explaining this. How would you feel if you waited 10 seconds for enemies to die in an exterminate mission at level 5 enemies.

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

14 hours ago, Velitria said:

The reason it kills (non bosses) in 10 seconds is because it is actually faster to kill a level 100 corpus tech with a mk-1 braton and one toxin mod. 10 seconds is an extremely long amount of time to kill things when saryn, gara, equinox, mag, octavia..... exist with infinitely scaling damage, gara for instance: Oneshots anything by being near you, significantly quicker than 10 seconds and is very balanced due to how long 10 seconds in reality is, the high level enemies would still oneshot you in return while they are decaying if you can't tank it. Saryn's molt is actually a good picture almost. Think Loki switch teleport, you become their body and your old one explodes and decays everything in a small (3) to medium (7) radius (randomly) over the long 10 second duration. The explosion is a burst and does not linger to decay more things. This ability can't be spammed because the frame would have a limiter. The limiter could be something such as a % energy cost starting at 100% before efficiency. The percent cost is done in many games as a limiter for abilities, not to be spammed, because it deters usage and isn't a flat huge cost like 200 and requires flow just to use. Since infinite scaling already exists on some frames and weapons can already kill level 1k+ enemies, it isn't such a worry to have oneshot status as a passive since it is heavily delayed and has diminishing returns because of the cost having one of the above limiters. The on death part of the passive could connect with the enemy that killed her and make both of them create the AoE decay. However, since the decay is the set amount of HP the enemy has at a give time, things like shield osprey, or healing capabilities DE might add over time, would be enough to save them.

The ability that uses the passive is in reality just using kuva to merge with someone, the passive just so happens to explode the old body. The passive being for the frame to explode on death could be the passive of the kuva within and her passive while alive could be something else. The passive could possibly be that she cannot die and instead loses 20% of her total hp and shields with each death while triggering the kuva passive and merging with her killer. Also having minimal 1-3 second invulnerability is good, like with nidus and wukong. However, after 5 deaths she would finally die from the 0% hp, but the way she can restore her lost stats is by using the merge on enemies, restoring 5% each time with a custom UI tick counter on the hp bars. This being offset by the % energy cost would, even at maximum efficiency, cost all of your energy to restore your health back to what it was before dying. I feel that this fits the kuva theme, even though I wasn't initially thinking this would turn out to be a frame similar to old wukong defy... Pretty strange how me trying to follow theme leads me somewhere I didn't expect.

Side note: a good example of why 10 seconds is a long time, (though I don't know if you've done the three eidolons before with like a 5x3), is if this actually worked on eidolons to kill limbs, it would be so slow and impractical regardless of oneshot in 10 seconds status to use that it would never even be thought of, except for memes. Imagine it against the sergeant, or even imagine it against the only practical use case: Lephantis. Lephantis is only hard because it has a damage cap per shot that reduces any amount of damage, no matter how high, by a ratio. The 10 seconds is only practical against something that has a damage cap is why I went through the effort of explaining this. How would you feel if you waited 10 seconds for enemies to die in an exterminate mission at level 5 enemies.

When you put it this way, it could actually work for the most part.

I think if this ability was put in the game exactly the way you explained it here, it would be relatively balanced. Only thing is (correct me if i’m wrong), i don’t think DE has ever given a warframe an ability that guarantees an enemies death. DE’s take on this ability would likely be less of a guarantee, and more of a likely outcome. For example, instead of taking 10% of an enemies health every second, it would have a high base damage per second, and this damage would scale up depending on the level of the enemy that it is damaging. This essentially does the same thing you had said, but it is presented in a different way, to remain consistent with how DE has done things thus far.

I don’t think i quite understand what you mean for the abilities limiter. Do you mean that instead of this ability (3rd ability) costing 54 energy and 30 health, it would cost 75 energy and 30 health? If you could explain it to me in greater detail that’d be great.

I really like this passive idea a lot! At first i was a little squeamish about the idea of near immortality, as well as the closeness this passive shares with wukong’s, but i think most of those concerns can get worked out later. One thing i would need to do is find a way to separate the death max health drain, and the ability max health drain’s representation on the health bar. Most likely the unavailable dead parts of the health bar will be black, and the temporarily unavailable ability parts of the health bar will be orange.

One thing i really don’t think is a good idea, is death draining max shields. Since Guen’s whole thing is that she’s made of kuva, and kuva is “old blood” and that ties in perfectly with health, and all of her abilities drain health exclusively, and she has low shield capacity to account for her high health and armor, i just really don’t like the idea of draining her shield capacity for anything.

Not sure about gaining back your death max health by using the merge ability, not totally against it, but i think it would make things a bit too complicated. i’m leaning towards something a little different. Like having the option to regain all of her death max health by relinquishing one of your instant revives, tell me what you think about that idea in your next reply.

One last thing, the way you explained the ability made it seem as if there are too few possible applications for it, making it that one ability no one ever uses. If that is still the case once it has been fully developed, i think a possible solution may be to add a spread effect. Meaning enemies effected by this ability have a chance of spreading its effects to other nearby enemies. What do you think?

Thanks a bunch for all those great ideas! They keep getting better and better, so please keep posting them.

[Velitria]

DE hasn't done Percent energy costs before, that would mean having 600 max energy and the percent cost being 100%, she would lose 600 energy, at max efficiency, it would be 25% or 150. Percent costs deter the want for increasing energy max if all abilities are percent based, hence why this is the only ability that has percent cost, this is the limiter of spam.

Not reducing shields is fine, that was just me theory crafting balance. The reason I think the merge should restore the dead hp loss is because arbitration exists and you just flat die, no instant revives. A player who has died 4 times would actually prefer to die another time and have allies restore them in arbitration over dealing with weak stats, and in general, a bad style if you ever find it worth to die, regardless of the fact that you have revives, it is a bad feeling in a player. 

Complication does not equal bad. Complication equals bad if this is an early on and easy to get frame which it will not because players are moderately invested before they discover kuva. Complication equals good because it gives players more options to not get bored or to prevent bad play styles.... incentivizing suicide, cough.

The merge ability itself is actually an instant kill on a single enemy, and the ability type is used as a movement and anti heavy enemy. The kuva effects makes the old body have a small aoe as a special bonus on the old body. The reason garuda can't oneshot an enemy with her dread mirror is because the ability doesn't have a limiter good enough,  her dread mirror is fairly cheap. This ability should cost a large % of your max energy AS the limiter to prevent spam. With this heavy energy cost as the limiter, players will use it occasionally for movement to an enemy instantly and kill it, but also to restore the death cost, so it will be a useful ability and not used primarily. This ability is used as utility for those 3 things but not the primary focus of the frame (once again due to the limiter). I previously proposed a percent cost of 100 to start, expecting players to slap on maximum efficiency for the 25%. However, it isn't always best to have an extremely severe limiter as that also can limit builds significantly and I think to give greater freedom of builds, it should be either 50 or 75 percent to start (preferably 50 to allow usage of blind rage).

Though if a player were simply sacrificing energy for immortality, they could die twice and consume 100% of their energy to restore it at maximum efficiency. This seems quite balanced to me since sacrificing and entire energy pool isn't quite worth it from a tank perspective comparing with other tank frames. Also, with no energy, the frame has no capability of doing anything other than tanking so this balances her as a tank quite well. It would be a better idea to gradually restore with the merge over time than center the frame's focus on that.

Also to note: because the passive of kuva immortality causes her to use merge with her killer at the cost of the semi-permanent 20% of her life, merging instantly kills enemies and would not work on bosses that were to kill you, so that is important to consider. Also because the merge is used on her killer, it might be confusing to suddenly die and end up somewhere you weren't looking.... this is why I suggested the 2-3 seconds of invulnerability.

I'll give you a link to a concept I made and that might also give you some ideas for why I balanced it the way I did.
Gavros the Warframe of Energy

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

3 hours ago, Velitria said:

DE hasn't done Percent energy costs before, that would mean having 600 max energy and the percent cost being 100%, she would lose 600 energy, at max efficiency, it would be 25% or 150. Percent costs deter the want for increasing energy max if all abilities are percent based, hence why this is the only ability that has percent cost, this is the limiter of spam.

Not reducing shields is fine, that was just me theory crafting balance. The reason I think the merge should restore the dead hp loss is because arbitration exists and you just flat die, no instant revives. A player who has died 4 times would actually prefer to die another time and have allies restore them in arbitration over dealing with weak stats, and in general, a bad style if you ever find it worth to die, regardless of the fact that you have revives, it is a bad feeling in a player. 

Complication does not equal bad. Complication equals bad if this is an early on and easy to get frame which it will not because players are moderately invested before they discover kuva. Complication equals good because it gives players more options to not get bored or to prevent bad play styles.... incentivizing suicide, cough.

The merge ability itself is actually an instant kill on a single enemy, and the ability type is used as a movement and anti heavy enemy. The kuva effects makes the old body have a small aoe as a special bonus on the old body. The reason garuda can't oneshot an enemy with her dread mirror is because the ability doesn't have a limiter good enough,  her dread mirror is fairly cheap. This ability should cost a large % of your max energy AS the limiter to prevent spam. With this heavy energy cost as the limiter, players will use it occasionally for movement to an enemy instantly and kill it, but also to restore the death cost, so it will be a useful ability and not used primarily. This ability is used as utility for those 3 things but not the primary focus of the frame (once again due to the limiter). I previously proposed a percent cost of 100 to start, expecting players to slap on maximum efficiency for the 25%. However, it isn't always best to have an extremely severe limiter as that also can limit builds significantly and I think to give greater freedom of builds, it should be either 50 or 75 percent to start (preferably 50 to allow usage of blind rage).

Though if a player were simply sacrificing energy for immortality, they could die twice and consume 100% of their energy to restore it at maximum efficiency. This seems quite balanced to me since sacrificing and entire energy pool isn't quite worth it from a tank perspective comparing with other tank frames. Also, with no energy, the frame has no capability of doing anything other than tanking so this balances her as a tank quite well. It would be a better idea to gradually restore with the merge over time than center the frame's focus on that.

Also to note: because the passive of kuva immortality causes her to use merge with her killer at the cost of the semi-permanent 20% of her life, merging instantly kills enemies and would not work on bosses that were to kill you, so that is important to consider. Also because the merge is used on her killer, it might be confusing to suddenly die and end up somewhere you weren't looking.... this is why I suggested the 2-3 seconds of invulnerability.

I'll give you a link to a concept I made and that might also give you some ideas for why I balanced it the way I did.
Gavros the Warframe of Energy

I’m starting really like this passive idea, and i will definitely implement some version of it, but I did the math, and this passive as it is now would make her way too OP.

Spawning into the game she would have 1000 health at max rank. After her first death she would have 800, after her second 600, then 400, then 200

1000+800+600+400+200=3000 and thats without mods, not to mention that with merge she would be able to regain some of her lost capacity, so that 3000 could potentially turn into 4000 or more, again, without mods. And i haven’t even accounted for the fact that each death grants her with some sort of buff or invulnerability to stay on theme. And her high armor would make it even harder for her to die. Then once she’s finally dead for good, she can start the whole thing back up again just by using one of her instant revives or getting revived by a team mate.

I currently have 4 ideas on how we can help solve this problem (they’re in order of what i think are the best and most effective options):

-1) take away Guen’s instant revives. Or better yet, replace them with Guen revives. Meaning when Guen is downed and she uses an “instant revive”, instead of costing affinity, it would cost her health capacity. She would get up, but leave behind some kuva. And once she’s been downed 5 times, you better hope someone revives you, because otherwise, your done.

-2) raise Guen’s revival cost to 50% of her health capacity. Once Guen gets downed twice she can get back into the game by either using one of her instant revives, or getting revived by a team mate.

-3) lower her base health... a lot (i might do this anyway, i think her health is a little high)

-4) raise her ability health costs and lower her armor

 

Energy percent cost:

I don’t think i like adding a whole different form of energy drain which has never been used in warframe before. I think it would be more likely for DE to accept this frame if the foundation of her build remains consistent with how things have been done in warframe so far. I think, instead of this ability draining 100% of Guen’s energy, it should drain 100 energy. This amount is greater than Guen’s base energy capacity by 10, but by the time Guen has leveled up enough to unlock the merge ability, she would have already gained a greater energy capacity in one of her previous levels. Also, to ensure that it isn’t spammed with the use of primed flow and other energy enhancing mods, there would be a cool down timer of 20 or 30 seconds, time for Guen to really absorb and digest her prey.

 

Something i might add:

I think i would also add a new function to merge where, if she uses merge before losing any health to death, then she gets a relatively long grace period instead of health capacity. The reason for this is that, when the enemy was injected with Guen’s kuva, they are granted invincibility, but they aren’t in the drivers seat anymore, Guen is, and that invincibility immediately transfers to her as well because they are now one entity. Until the enemy dies inside of her from overwhelming levels of pure kuva.

 

Something i might change:

Instead of Guen leaving behind her previous kuva infested enemy when casting this ability, i think it would be beneficial to change the order around a bit. Since this ability is supposed to only drain energy, leaving behind a toxic kuva infused enemy is a bit contradictive. Here’s what i’m thinking instead; Casting this ability once costs only energy. Casting merge once causes you to liquify into a kuva puddle and quickly zip over to a nearby victim, Guen will fuse her kuva essence with that of the enemy and they will become one. After a certain amount of time has passed, Guen will be able to recast this ability, recasting merge costs only health capacity. Recasting merge causes Guen to spit out the remains of the enemy she had devoured onto the floor in front of her. Other enemies that walk within the corpses range while the recast ability is still active will be effected by overwhelming damage and random status effects. I think this would be a great addition on an already decent ability.

 

Question:

What would be the reason for her gaining back health capacity when merging with an enemy? I know it makes sense for her build, but i don’t see a reason why that would happen according to her backstory or basic kuva anatomy.

 

Complication:

I agree with you about complication not being bad, especially with a frame made of kuva. If this frame were put in the game, there’s a good chance it would be one of the most difficult frames to get. Meaning the people using her would be experienced players that can work with even the most complicated of frames.

Thank you so much, i know i say that every time, but i really do appreciate these comments. Please continue to post your ideas, i think we are finally nearing Guen’s true passive and 3rd ability

[KaffeRausch]

You put so much effort into it, I'll give you a thumbs up.

Even if the ideas seem familiar to me and I want waframes in other directions.

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

2 hours ago, KaffeRausch said:

You put so much effort into it, I'll give you a thumbs up.

Even if the ideas seem familiar to me and I want waframes in other directions.

Thanks! I try. Also, what directions would you prefer in some of the next warframes? Maybe i can add some of their aspects to Guen.

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

I just finished editing the “Merge” ability description so that it’s easier to fallow and understand. Unfortunately i feel like it may still be confusing for some people.

So if anyone has any questions about Guen’s merge ability I’ll be happy to answer them for you.

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

I think i’m about done developing Guen’s build. So i now have just 2 questions for anyone willing to answer them:

(answering these questions would really help me get an understanding of how my frame is received by other players, so please answer them.)

1) Do you think Guen has a chance of ever actually being put in the game? Why or why not?

2) Do you think Guen is a good warframe, or terrible one? And why?

(the more honest the better, i promise i won’t take any of it personally)

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

Well, Iv’e done just about everything I can for this frame. The only thing I can’t seem to do is find a decent picture to represent Guen’s default skin.

Her default skin should look kind of like a girl covered in/ made out of hardened kuva.

If any of you could find, or better yet draw (no pressure), a picture that better represent Guen’s default skin, that would be great. Thanks!

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

I’m thinking of adding a table of contents. What do you think, too much?

I mean there are so many sections, and each one is so long, I figure something like a table of contents may make it more manageable. Or is it manageable enough as is?

I’d appreciate some feedback on how confusing or straightforward it is, thanks.

[(XBOX)Mentor0fHeroes]

I’m currently racking my brain trying to think of a proper augment mod for the “Guen’s kuva scepter” ability, but I’m having trouble coming up with it.

I’m looking for something that has the potential to synergies well with her other abilities, but at the same time, something that makes her 4th ability slightly less dependent on her 3rd ability.

If any of you think of any ideas for Guen’s 4th augment mod, please don’t hesitate. I’d love to hear them.

[(PSN)cosy_farm]

Cool