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Why is railjack getting a rework already ???


Tenno76856
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7 hours ago, Ineradicable said:

Railjack has a insane amount of potential just some aspects were poorly executed which is being revisited. Also I can't wait for the command intrinsics to arrive.

If it gets the amount of nerf they have on the PTS, I probably will not bother with the command intrinsic. I have solo'd all of it, and find the difficulty to be jokingly low. So a command intrinsic for game play that is 10x, or more easy, than pathetically easy, doesn't have any appeal for me. Warframe lately makes me feel like I am trapped in the movie Idiocracy.

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3 hours ago, Nichivo said:

If it gets the amount of nerf they have on the PTS, I probably will not bother with the command intrinsic. I have solo'd all of it, and find the difficulty to be jokingly low. So a command intrinsic for game play that is 10x, or more easy, than pathetically easy, doesn't have any appeal for me. Warframe lately makes me feel like I am trapped in the movie Idiocracy.

They're building a base foundation with Railjack right now. If done right you can expand on it creating more difficult content and combining railjack with other gameplay such as the recent Scarlet Spear event, tho the Scarlet Spear event was quite the disaster very poorly executed mechanically. And honestly Scarlet Spear should've been delayed it got rushed out the door right when they had to change offices and work from home. (From what I got from the devstream, they even cut out mechanics out of scarlet spear because the issues it caused)

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23 minutes ago, Ineradicable said:

They're building a base foundation with Railjack right now. If done right you can expand on it creating more difficult content and combining railjack with other gameplay such as the recent Scarlet Spear event

That is if they going to bring something for Railjack very soon and not leave the Gamemode with the same Exterminate/Sabotage that's being left in the Gamemode for close to 7 Months.

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I believe they invested so much time in RJ there’s no turning back now. It needs to be good and people need to play it.  Neither of those things are happening at the moment so it’s gonna get attention. Or they lose 2 years of dev time on a DOA mode. 

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18 hours ago, Ineradicable said:

Railjack has a insane amount of potential just some aspects were poorly executed which is being revisited. Also I can't wait for the command intrinsics to arrive.

Same, I love railjack soloing in the Veil, or open ship to a crew so others can come along who might not have a good ship yet.

Can't wait to see the star chart open up to the other factions and missions, I just hope they do it right, it will go a long way towards awesomeness.

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I love railjack as well. The movement is great. Granted the boost drain is a little much. It just seems like most of the changes they are planning, are going to remove the better parts of railjack. Once those parts are removed, and all the content is made trivial there will be no reason to bother, because there are not really any rewards in the game mode other then ship upgrades, and intrinsic.

Think! What is the point of adding a command Intrinsic for solo players, if it's already easy to solo, and they plan to make it even easier. Regardless of if people admit it or not if there is no challenge in the game play, people simply will not play. People can claim it's rewards all day long, but challenge in and of itself, is one of the best rewards a game can have. Somewhere along the line DE seems to have forgotten this small fact. 

Catering to only casuals kills games. If the casuals have nothing to aspire to they will quit. The non casual players give casuals something to drive towards, but when all the content becomes trivial they are lost. 

I'll be the first to admit I am not a casual player in any game I play. It took me about a week to build my railjack solo, and be flush in resources, and currently 9,9,9,10. I only plan to go to 10,10,9,10 because auto aim doesn't appeal to me. If it highlighted the closest target, or maybe gave options for different predictive crosshairs, or colors I may be interested. The point here is in less than 48 hours of game play of Railjack. I'm already wishing for a survival mode so I can push the solo envelope high as possible, and get to more of a challenge, meanwhile they are planning to make the content drastically easier so that even casuals will get bored. How is that going to be good for the game mode?

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4 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

I love railjack as well. The movement is great. Granted the boost drain is a little much. It just seems like most of the changes they are planning, are going to remove the better parts of railjack. Once those parts are removed, and all the content is made trivial there will be no reason to bother, because there are not really any rewards in the game mode other then ship upgrades, and intrinsic.

Think! What is the point of adding a command Intrinsic for solo players, if it's already easy to solo, and they plan to make it even easier. Regardless of if people admit it or not if there is no challenge in the game play, people simply will not play. People can claim it's rewards all day long, but challenge in and of itself, is one of the best rewards a game can have. Somewhere along the line DE seems to have forgotten this small fact. 

Catering to only casuals kills games. If the casuals have nothing to aspire to they will quit. The non casual players give casuals something to drive towards, but when all the content becomes trivial they are lost. 

I'll be the first to admit I am not a casual player in any game I play. It took me about a week to build my railjack solo, and be flush in resources, and currently 9,9,9,10. I only plan to go to 10,10,9,10 because auto aim doesn't appeal to me. If it highlighted the closest target, or maybe gave options for different predictive crosshairs, or colors I may be interested. The point here is in less than 48 hours of game play of Railjack. I'm already wishing for a survival mode so I can push the solo envelope high as possible, and get to more of a challenge, meanwhile they are planning to make the content drastically easier so that even casuals will get bored. How is that going to be good for the game mode?

Very well put.

Regarding gunnery 10, it depends on your play style. It only triggers if you aim/zoom (Right Mouse Button). I almost never do, so doesn't bother me.

It can actually be useful on some cases, like for example if you're on the side guns and the guns are hit scan, and you're not the host ( just a bit of lag can make live miserable for gunners ).

You can land shots with 100% accuracy with RMB,LMB,RMB,LMB .. repeat, no need to even aim properly as it will auto aim for you, so just repeat those clicks while facing a group of enemies and you will kill them all pretty quickly.

It does work pretty much as advertised, but if you're used to always aim when shooting, then yea, I can see how it can become annoying.

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43 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Very well put.

Regarding gunnery 10, it depends on your play style. It only triggers if you aim/zoom (Right Mouse Button). I almost never do, so doesn't bother me.

It can actually be useful on some cases, like for example if you're on the side guns and the guns are hit scan, and you're not the host ( just a bit of lag can make live miserable for gunners ).

You can land shots with 100% accuracy with RMB,LMB,RMB,LMB .. repeat, no need to even aim properly as it will auto aim for you, so just repeat those clicks while facing a group of enemies and you will kill them all pretty quickly.

It does work pretty much as advertised, but if you're used to always aim when shooting, then yea, I can see how it can become annoying.

Interesting I read it and knew instantly I would not bother with it though. Funny enough, I want to use the scoped ability in railjack, but even with the sensitivity set to 0, or changing mouse settings on the fly it's just way to sensitive. So I never bother with scoping.

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Railjack had a number of serious issues on release. It's their new game mode, and their future plans include tying it into the rest of the star chart and the Lich system. In order to do so it can't be built on a bad, and disliked foundation.

The biggest issues with Railjack were;

  • Health, armour and damage of enemies. They basically started the mode at a level where optimisation was required just to stay alive in the mission. It meant anyone who just built their Railjack basically couldn't use it without first playing a heap on other people's ships to leech good weapons and avionics. It also meant that any game modes going forward would be hard to scale, as when you start at hard enemies, they quickly scale to impossible to kill, or to the point that they take so long it isn't fun at all. For some people the Veil already reached the point of not being fun.
  • The avionics system was a mess. Most of the avionics you received were absolutely worthless, granting bonuses in the single digits where the better versions granted 500%. They wanted a divide between "the best stats" and "maximum capacity" so you're forced to make sacrifices, but really it just makes for a very unsatisfying system when you can't use the rare rewards you get because there isn't space.
  • Most of the game was spent patching your ship. When it launched the focus was on ALL CO-OP ALL THE TIME. Basically one person's entire game was meant to be topping up special bullets for the others to use, and fixing the ship. How is that fun or desirable in the slightest? So that was basically scrapped and you have minimal damage effects at once.

The biggest culmination of issues was that anyone with a half-decent ship only spends time in the Veil where the good rewards are. Anyone new trying to queue for Earth nodes as crew to be able to start out at all can't even play the mode. Nobody new being able to play means the mode just dies as people get what they want out of it and leave, and they can't have that happen to something they put so much stock into.

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3 minutes ago, anarchy753 said:

They basically started the mode at a level where optimisation was required just to stay alive in the mission. It meant anyone who just built their Railjack basically couldn't use it without first playing a heap on other people's ships to leech good weapons and avionics

This isn't actually true. It's just that when starting, players have no idea how to plan their progress and have no experience in operating their Railjack.

Anyone that has gained that experience, can complete early Earth missions with minimal effort without any avionics/upgrades whatsoever.

After doing a few missions ( it really doesn't take much effort ) you have enough resources to pick up a mk2 weapon from Dojo and go ham ( they are free in the sense that you get 80% resources refunded once you're done with them, and they have no waiting timers to build ).

I'm not just making this up. I have repeated this "new player" initial journey after finishing it all, using bare bones stock Railjack and being equipped pretty much with just my know how and experience.

And, mind you, I'm talking about solo. With a squad it's obviously trivial ( again, when you know what you're doing ).

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6 minutes ago, anarchy753 said:

Railjack had a number of serious issues on release. It's their new game mode, and their future plans include tying it into the rest of the star chart and the Lich system. In order to do so it can't be built on a bad, and disliked foundation.

The biggest issues with Railjack were;

  • Health, armour and damage of enemies. They basically started the mode at a level where optimisation was required just to stay alive in the mission. It meant anyone who just built their Railjack basically couldn't use it without first playing a heap on other people's ships to leech good weapons and avionics. It also meant that any game modes going forward would be hard to scale, as when you start at hard enemies, they quickly scale to impossible to kill, or to the point that they take so long it isn't fun at all. For some people the Veil already reached the point of not being fun.
  • The avionics system was a mess. Most of the avionics you received were absolutely worthless, granting bonuses in the single digits where the better versions granted 500%. They wanted a divide between "the best stats" and "maximum capacity" so you're forced to make sacrifices, but really it just makes for a very unsatisfying system when you can't use the rare rewards you get because there isn't space.
  • Most of the game was spent patching your ship. When it launched the focus was on ALL CO-OP ALL THE TIME. Basically one person's entire game was meant to be topping up special bullets for the others to use, and fixing the ship. How is that fun or desirable in the slightest? So that was basically scrapped and you have minimal damage effects at once.

The biggest culmination of issues was that anyone with a half-decent ship only spends time in the Veil where the good rewards are. Anyone new trying to queue for Earth nodes as crew to be able to start out at all can't even play the mode. Nobody new being able to play means the mode just dies as people get what they want out of it and leave, and they can't have that happen to something they put so much stock into.

I solo'd it all without issue. The avionics system is actually fine, they are about to ruin it though. If you spent most of the time patching your ship, you simply did something wrong. Even in the veil solo, I rarely have to repair the ship, and most of the time I  do not even run any maxed avionics, even though I have them all.

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1 minute ago, Vit0Corleone said:

This isn't actually true. It's just that when starting, players have no idea how to plan their progress and have no experience in operating their Railjack.

Anyone that has gained that experience, can complete early Earth missions with minimal effort without any avionics/upgrades whatsoever.

After doing a few missions ( it really doesn't take much effort ) you have enough resources to pick up a mk2 weapon from Dojo and go ham ( they are free in the sense that you get 80% resources refunded once you're done with them, and they have no waiting timers to build ).

I'm not just making this up. I have repeated this "new player" initial journey after finishing it all, using bare bones stock Railjack and being equipped pretty much with just my know how and experience.

And, mind you, I'm talking about solo. With a squad it's obviously trivial ( again, when you know what you're doing ).

Yes, but the issue is that anyone new to the mode isn't going in knowing how to play optimally. They get in, take 3 hits, are out of revolite with no resources to craft it and then fail the mission. They now have no revolite, no enjoyment from that experience and no drive to go back in and try again.

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Just now, anarchy753 said:

Yes, but the issue is that anyone new to the mode isn't going in knowing how to play optimally. They get in, take 3 hits, are out of revolite with no resources to craft it and then fail the mission. They now have no revolite, no enjoyment from that experience and no drive to go back in and try again.

Not knowing and not being willing to learn are different things are they not?

Plenty of us went through it, solo or not, using trial and error and learning what to do and how. 

You said that it requires optimization in the form of hitching a ride from others to get better stuff:

"anyone who just built their Railjack basically couldn't use it without first playing a heap on other people's ships to leech good weapons and avionics"

I'm saying this isn't true, you don't need that kind of optimization if you are willing or capable of learning and trying things out by yourself instead of giving up because you failed the first time you tried.

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I mostly solo'd my way through railjack and the only issue that felt glaringly bad is how slow the ship was without the ability to boost. The thing is, in a game where everything is about mobility, people come with a set of expectations. Piloting the railjack felt like piloting a slug. I'm one of the weirdos who loved archwing and was eagerly waiting for railjack so my eagerness to engage with the gamemode carried me through the horrid slog that it is early on. Most people come in and see a complete reversal of their expectations and don't touch it again.Doubling the base speed of the railjack is definitely going to help a lot of people out. Stock weapons you start out with were also mismatched for the lvl of figthers you face early on. I turtled my way through the entire thing by using the asteroids to my advantage and having the fighters kamikaze on them instead of engaging them. After I got the upgrades I needed I can run veil solo under 15mins. You can run it even faster if you're diligent with your usage of munitions vortex but well that's a good enough pace for me already.

I'm not a fan of the health reduction on fighters cause railjack felt like the only place with some amount of challenge. There was some amount of deliberation and switching from engaging fighters to boarding crewships while making sure you are not taking too much damage (which you only really do if you're facetanking multiple crewships with outriders). The current changes will make the combat much faster and will possibly cut down mission time to half of what it is and I just hate the idea of it. A content where you can take your time to move through and explore and enjoy the combat is now getting dumbed down to match what the base gameplay is.

I'm happy about the avionics overhaul. There was a lot of bloat for no reason really. People will have to manage drain like they have to do early on in the game.

I can't say without running it myself if I'll enjoy it or not, but it's obvious it's being made to allow rushing under 7mins. The game already has way too much content that can be rushed in a minute, not sure it needs more. On top of that, I don't think people who aren't already playing it for the fun are going to find it anymore fun unless the railjack system is integrated to work with the base game. Might help get new players through the content but as it stands, this is another iteration of archwing.

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12 minutes ago, shadowstormr said:

Doubling the base speed of the railjack is definitely going to help a lot of people out.

Most definitely, but I still think they should have left boost intact, and make boost/drift/vector manuevers available by default.

The amount of people that basically thinks the way you move is just by pressing "W" ins amazing, and as you said leaves the wrong initial impression.

14 minutes ago, shadowstormr said:

Stock weapons you start out with were also mismatched for the lvl of figthers you face early on

This was true when we started, but by currently all Dojos should have research done, and you can pick up a Sigma from dojo which boosts your DPS by quite a lot, and not only is fairly cheap but also has no build times and you get 80% resources refunded when you no longer need it.

 

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4 minutes ago, shadowstormr said:

 A content where you can take your time to move through and explore and enjoy the combat is now getting dumbed down to match what the base gameplay is.

I'm happy about the avionics overhaul. There was a lot of bloat for no reason really. People will have to manage drain like they have to do early on in the game.
 

I was right with you until the avionics comment. I do not find options to be bloat. The changes they are making will leave less options. It's actually going to make managing drain worse, build diversity will go bye, bye There was not a lot to begin with, but it's going to make it even less. The Avionics changes are frankly one of the worst changes they are making.

The Avionics changes are to be blunt, dumbing down the game more than people think. I have a +99 vidar reactor I do not use currently, and another that will max it with valence being a thing. The avionics change is only going to force me to use the Vidar reactor. I fail to see how being forced into a build, and play style I don't enjoy, is better.

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1 hour ago, Nichivo said:

I was right with you until the avionics comment. I do not find options to be bloat. The changes they are making will leave less options. It's actually going to make managing drain worse, build diversity will go bye, bye There was not a lot to begin with, but it's going to make it even less. The Avionics changes are frankly one of the worst changes they are making.

The Avionics changes are to be blunt, dumbing down the game more than people think. I have a +99 vidar reactor I do not use currently, and another that will max it with valence being a thing. The avionics change is only going to force me to use the Vidar reactor. I fail to see how being forced into a build, and play style I don't enjoy, is better.

That actually completely escaped me. But with how avionics capacity is the most essential resource for railjack, aren't we already forced to choose vidar ? If you want to continually upgrade your rj's capabilities, you don't have any option other than to go vidar ? Although I'd admit that having multiple avionics with marginal differences in stats but great differences in drain was useful to test out builds.

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33 minutes ago, shadowstormr said:

 

That actually completely escaped me. But with how avionics capacity is the most essential resource for railjack, aren't we already forced to choose vidar ? If you want to continually upgrade your rj's capabilities, you don't have any option other than to go vidar ? Although I'd admit that having multiple avionics with marginal differences in stats but great differences in drain was useful to test out builds.

Nope running a zetki was totally possible and a lot of fun. Hell they nerfed things to the point I can still run the zetki, everything just instantly dies now. Boring as hell, not to mention the new graphic for particle ram looks like total %$#. Also part of the ships teleport features in the tactical are now cut off in certain cases. The sprites added to turrets being killed look horrid. The movement has also been wrecked, what they did to boost is a travesty. 

They pretty much just train wrecked Railjack, for me at least. Boring movement, zero challenge anywhere, and some graphics changes that look like total garbage.

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Thoughts after playing the update : 

I actually prefer how it is now because the flow of combat follows that of the base game (no challenge, press button, rush,everything dies). If it were a single player game I'd have preferred what we had before but I'd rather play railjack with my wife and clanmates than not and this allows them to enjoy and participate which is a compromise I can live with. 

Due to how less of a threat the mob is now, I can put speed avionics in to compensate for the net loss in speed, turrets are overpowered anyway and let's not talk about battle avionics(they wipe the map). Base rj speed is pretty good for non-pilots and newbies to get into it.

Overall I'll mourn the loss of the somewhat deliberate ship combat but on the other hand railjack just became more accessible thus hopefully it'll stay alive until push other content in.

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