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Railjack Revisited (Part 1): Healing Abilities on Objects Feedback Megathread


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5 minutes ago, Opyt said:

I'm suggesting that variety is what makes the grind a little more tolerable.  Vazarin being ""OP"" allowed you to take whatever you wanted, instead of having a person locked into one of five viable frames for a mission they felt like running.

That's a good argument. It still leaves the question of difficulty up there though.

 

6 minutes ago, Opyt said:

Unfortunately for the 9.7%, that means that a game will be "too easy"

It's not the #1 issue for everyone, but it is for some. There's room for the scales to be tipped into that direction (more difficulty) further, maybe even to the point where there's an equal share of players that find it too difficult, alongside those who find it too easy. I would call that a happy medium. We're not there yet, but DE is getting closer.

 

8 minutes ago, Opyt said:

Does it mean lower numbers inflicted on the players?
Does it mean more aggressive AI?
Does it mean AI that is "smarter"?

These are all great ideas. I've also pitched the idea of improving AI in the past. Someone told me that my idea was impossible so I just let the thread die and moved on.

18 minutes ago, Opyt said:

What in Limbo's kit is "non-signature"

They're probably just going to put his 1st ability in there. There's no sense is only having his second or third without the first, so....banish is very likely to be it.

But yeah I am a little leery of this new Helminth Chrysalis system too. It's a step towards powercreep for sure, and the solution so far has been to just add bigger numbers onto the enemies, which in turn spreads the playerbase a little more thin. I'm not sure how sustainable this is without creating a huge gap between the newbie and the veteran player. One of the good things Warframe has had going for it for a long time was the way it mixes older and newer players. But the gap is widening and it creates a lot of boredom, tedium, repetition, and a lack of challenge for the older player in some situations.

 

Anyway, yeah man sorry but I don't agree with you. I still think completely invulnerability and 60% hp over 5 seconds is too much. Maybe a 1 second of invulnerability with a 25% heal over 5 seconds + a flat 50hp/s on top of that. I don't know. I can agree with people saying that 50hp/s is too low, but I cannot agree with reverting the nerf to what it was before. I'd rather see it go to a sweet spot in the middle.

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5 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

Anyway, yeah man sorry but I don't agree with you. I still think completely invulnerability and 60% hp over 5 seconds is too much. Maybe a 1 second of invulnerability with a 25% heal over 5 seconds + a flat 50hp/s on top of that. I don't know. I can agree with people saying that 50hp/s is too low, but I cannot agree with reverting the nerf to what it was before. I'd rather see it go to a sweet spot in the middle.

It's 100hp/s (which, is still low, so I'll give you that one), I'm not saying exactly how it was (how it was is 25 operator energy to void dash and give 60/5/5), I'm saying go back to 60/5/5 but offer a different nerf: it now costs 60E instead of 25E.  That may not seem like much, but it's half as many available after unlocking the more energy in WB of Zenurik.  The 5 seconds of invulnerability also gives you time for the shields of an objective to start going back up.  At this point I want it back to how it was, because I believe that after 3 months they've had plenty of opportunity to undo this abomination of a change.  Or to fix it properly.  Instead this topic just sits here, with no indication that DE knows or cares what is thought of their changes.  I want it back to 60/5/5, with an increased energy cost, and I'd be willing to settle for less, though not quite THIS MUCH less.

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On 2020-07-30 at 11:26 AM, Lutesque said:

If you have to make a sacrifice to your damage... then its not that strong is it ?

And there lies the problem, mainly with the mindset. In a game where its "DPSDPSDPS" all the time, it was an incredibly powerful tool for support players like myself to do something different. 

By following the more traditional RPG trinity of a healer, I could just sit there and dash the objectives the whole time and everything would be fine. In fact, I have (had?) a whole Umbra build just for this just so that I have SOME sort of damage output, otherwise I would just use the empty shell as shield.

The way I see it, the changes are more in line with their overall design, but it was way too severe. Now there really is no reason to choose this tree over energizing dash, or whatever it is.

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4 minutes ago, NIkuno said:

And there lies the problem, mainly with the mindset. In a game where its "DPSDPSDPS" all the time

Thats not a Mindset... the Game Demands Damage...

5 minutes ago, NIkuno said:

fine. In fact, I have (had?) a whole Umbra build just for this just so that I have SOME sort of damage output,

See ?

6 minutes ago, NIkuno said:

The way I see it, the changes are more in line with their overall design, but it was way too severe. Now there really is no reason to choose this tree over energizing dash, or whatever it is.

On top of that... Does DE really think players are using Trinity or any Healer for Defense ? 

Hey who knows... maybe they are... i know Im not... infact Im buffing Enemies with Speed Nova because I dont want to be stuck baby sitting a cryopod all day...

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17 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Thats not a Mindset... the Game Demands Damage...

See ?

On top of that... Does DE really think players are using Trinity or any Healer for Defense ? 

Hey who knows... maybe they are... i know Im not... infact Im buffing Enemies with Speed Nova because I dont want to be stuck baby sitting a cryopod all day...

RE: DE thinking players are using healers for Defense

Definitely not with the healing in the shape it's in right now lmao.

-- but other than that, the game demands damage because any alternative to damage gets treatment similar to this.  DE has a nasty habit of mistaking what some find fun for "OP".  But hey, build your own Necralisk that totally isn't going to be another K-Drive that only gets used in Open Worlds, and only when the playerbase doesn't feel like NOT using their archwing was waaaaaay more important than something that would have kept me spending money on the game. 😝

Edited by Opyt
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After all these months of this thread being ignored, I just caved in and now use Limbo for excavation as it is the only viable frame for Excavation.

With Zenurik.

Thanks for frame variety, DE!

Edited by Zhuinden
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38 minutes ago, Zhuinden said:

After all these months of this thread being ignored, I just caved in and now use Limbo for excavation as it is the only viable frame for Excavation.

With Zenurik.

Thanks for frame variety, DE!

Yeah I also dont give feedback anymore.... waste of time....

I will, however,  Complain until the cows come home... its not anymore Productive but it makes me feel alot better...

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On 2020-08-05 at 7:55 AM, selig_fay said:

Just keep this theme up. We will stand! For the Emperor! **sits in a power suit**

At least it won't be a stationary objective so you can use Protective Dash to heal it.  It's gonna be awful and have very limited uses.  I feel bad for all the fanboy/fangirls that think it'll be a Terminator, when all it'll be is an overhyped Warframe that can only be used on 3 maps in the entire game.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

It is now September, we received this (unwelcome) change back in late April.  That means it's been roughly 4 months of this change.  I'm still not happy with flat healing on objectives with scaling health.  I would prefer it to be switched to percentage healing, and will not be purchasing anything from DE be it tennogen, prime access, platinum packs, etc. until DE figures out a way to make the objective healing tolerable.

It doesn't even have to be "satisfactory", I just want it to be tolerable.  5 minutes to heal a defense objective on Sedna using Protective Dash is currently intolerable.  For all intents and purposes: 42,000/100 = 420 seconds, 300 seconds is 5 minutes, and by the point where the objective has lost 30,000 health, you're basically hoping it's extraction time anyways.  It just feels bad.

Objective healing should scale, if every objective scales in health, why wouldn't the means to replenish that scaling health ALSO scale?  DE decided unilaterally that 60% was "trivializing" the game, completely ignoring other silly things that trivialize gameplay above and beyond simply temporarily delaying the end of a mission-type, things like Exodia Hunt + attack speed, as eventually the enemies will scale too high for the healing to matter since everything hits more than one time, and their damage scales upwards.  The only place where it demonstrably trivialized gameplay was in mobile defense missions, but even that fell flat because the healing didn't work reliably, but the 5 seconds of invulnerability did.

So we have objective healing that doesn't scale, when enemy damage scales, objective health scales, enemy health scales, enemy healing scales.  While also lowering the caps on damage reduction.  It has made very little difference in the gameplay that in the past some higher ups at DE have disagreed with.  The biggest change I can think of is that Excavations are more obnoxious and that solo defense missions are irritating and both can be of these can be overcome by running more damage instead of having the freedom to choose what to bring, which was the original stated goal in the dev workshop.

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I think the current changes should be kept, but the numbers should be scaled from the mission / enemies level at the current moment. (i.e. being weak at the beginning of the mission, but tending to grow with the enemies).

And all of this applies to all healing, including Oberon, Wisp, Khora. This is a much more delicate balance than current trash or regular %.

Edited by selig_fay
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On 2020-09-02 at 1:31 AM, selig_fay said:

I think the current changes should be kept, but the numbers should be scaled from the mission / enemies level at the current moment. (i.e. being weak at the beginning of the mission, but tending to grow with the enemies).

And all of this applies to all healing, including Oberon, Wisp, Khora. This is a much more delicate balance than current trash or regular %.

While that could be interesting, I don't see it happening.  It is my opinion that it's beyond DE's development abilities.

The reason I harp on percentage is because it's the easiest way to "fix" it.

  The current state is pitiful, there we agree, and it needs any help it can get.  I know they're capable of having it do percentage healing because that's what Protective Dash did prior to the current "system".  And even if they had interns working on it, provided they had the old code, an intern could reverse engineer it to do percentage based healing.  Having it scale based on enemy level on the other hand would require a lot more effort and won't be done with, potentially, a few key strokes.

 

I just want some common sense objective healing, or healsense if you will.

edit:
Besides if the healing leveled with the enemies it would eventually get us back to where we were: having the ability to heal an objective for more health than it has.

Edited by Opyt
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1 hour ago, Opyt said:

While that could be interesting, I don't see it happening.  It is my opinion that it's beyond DE's development abilities.

The reason I harp on percentage is because it's the easiest way to "fix" it.

  The current state is pitiful, there we agree, and it needs any help it can get.  I know they're capable of having it do percentage healing because that's what Protective Dash did prior to the current "system".  And even if they had interns working on it, provided they had the old code, an intern could reverse engineer it to do percentage based healing.  Having it scale based on enemy level on the other hand would require a lot more effort and won't be done with, potentially, a few key strokes.

 

I just want some common sense objective healing, or healsense if you will.

edit:
Besides if the healing leveled with the enemies it would eventually get us back to where we were: having the ability to heal an objective for more health than it has.

My guess is that the same logic should apply here as with damage abilities like Vauban. The game mod needs to keep and update the current level of enemies, so I don't think there is a problem getting this. And then, just a formula.

On the other hand, it will be very difficult to balance the healing against the damage of enemies, because the percentage will either dominate early in the mission, or it will be as useless as it is now.

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22 hours ago, selig_fay said:

My guess is that the same logic should apply here as with damage abilities like Vauban. The game mod needs to keep and update the current level of enemies, so I don't think there is a problem getting this. And then, just a formula.

On the other hand, it will be very difficult to balance the healing against the damage of enemies, because the percentage will either dominate early in the mission, or it will be as useless as it is now.

While I don't disagree with you, I just don't believe DE is competent enough to deliver on something that nuanced.  On the bright side it seems like someone accidentally flipped a switch and now Trinity's Blessing is healing for 100%.  Can't wait for that to get fixed.

edit:
huh.  A euphemism for neutering/spaying your pets is "getting them fixed" ... coincidence?

Edited by Opyt
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2 hours ago, Opyt said:

While I don't disagree with you, I just don't believe DE is competent enough to deliver on something that nuanced.  On the bright side it seems like someone accidentally flipped a switch and now Trinity's Blessing is healing for 100%.  Can't wait for that to get fixed.

edit:
huh.  A euphemism for neutering/spaying your pets is "getting them fixed" ... coincidence?

We only need to believe. But, I think that the whole problem is that the old developers are gone and now there are no people who understand the game. Hence all the problems with crutches. Or they have very little contact with each other, I don't know. It just looks like people are studying the project again.

But I don't like that they are trying to justify the delay in remote work. This might be a problem for the sound guys, but I think for most developers it shouldn't change much. There may be netcode testing problems, but I think this can be solved.

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I mean, why go after healing objects when the alternative is just slapping a variant of dome over the defence point?

Healing objects is kind of the only other playstyle for high level defence alongside building champions.

If you take away object healing, all that’s left is building over a defence point.

Is the game better when there are less ways to do things?

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10 hours ago, selig_fay said:

We only need to believe. But, I think that the whole problem is that the old developers are gone and now there are no people who understand the game. Hence all the problems with crutches. Or they have very little contact with each other, I don't know. It just looks like people are studying the project again.

But I don't like that they are trying to justify the delay in remote work. This might be a problem for the sound guys, but I think for most developers it shouldn't change much. There may be netcode testing problems, but I think this can be solved.

Again, I'm not disagreeing, as it'd be nice to see it.  I'm disagreeing that DE as a company is capable of a nuanced approach to healing where the healing would scale with enemy level (unless I misunderstood your original suggestion completely).  I do however know that they can do percentages, as that's what Protective Dash had originally, and that if they want more nuance from there they could fine tune those as needed.

My main thrust though is always that flat healing amounts is a poor design decision when everything in the game scales as you move further into the star chart, and the point at which you get Trinity and the Vazarin Focus Tree (much less any of the other frames you see on the list, except maybe Oberon) you're already a fair amount into the star chart.  100hp/s over 5 seconds is a ridiculously low amount for Pluto, where you might actually start to use what you get out of War Within, and where you get Trinity, especially when you explicitly disallow stacking.

I am curious what caused that bug with Trinity going back to the default of full healing objectives instantly though.

10 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

I mean, why go after healing objects when the alternative is just slapping a variant of dome over the defence point?

Healing objects is kind of the only other playstyle for high level defence alongside building champions.

If you take away object healing, all that’s left is building over a defence point.

Is the game better when there are less ways to do things?

Welcome to why I want it to be more common sense than just flat amounts of healing on objectives that scale in health as you go 'round the star chart.

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I used Vazarin's dash to heal and make things invulnerable for a good time before it was nerfed. Now that it's been nerfed, I've been using Oberon and Wisp to cover things up. I think the nerf was pretty just and called for, especially with the 5 second invulnerability on objects. It was tedious enough to keep the objects invulnerable for even a minute and it didn't feel like how this game was intended to be played.

As for the dash's healing amount being nerfed, I think it should be there with the warframe abilities, and it's kinda there now. But I think the dash should give objects a few seconds of damage reduction, percentual. Maybe 3 second damage reduction that had a 5 second cooldown, or something, with 20-80% damage reduction. And make the heal a 10-20 second heal over time instead of 5 seconds, with that 100 health per sec value.

Right now I don't see myself using vazarin school in any situation, not even leveling, as Naramon is more useful to level frames and I just don't bother switching to vazarin to level guns anymore. Vazarin could be useful in mobile defenses, excavations and kuva survival if you buffed it a bit, but right now it's too redundant compared to the dominating focus schools.

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On 2020-08-05 at 3:43 AM, Zhuinden said:

After all these months of this thread being ignored, I just caved in and now use Limbo for excavation as it is the only viable frame for Excavation.

With Zenurik.

Thanks for frame variety, DE!

Yeah maybe if you're planning on doing more than 50 nodes, I guess. Oberon, Wisp, Nidus, Gara. Or any frame really if you want some resemblance of challenge. Maybe you should be more specific, like specify whether you think you can only do even one node of excavation only as Limbo or whether you think Limbo is the only viable build for endless excavations?

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12 hours ago, SolitaryMan7 said:

Right now I don't see myself using vazarin school in any situation, not even leveling, as Naramon is more useful to level frames and I just don't bother switching to vazarin to level guns anymore. Vazarin could be useful in mobile defenses, excavations and kuva survival if you buffed it a bit, but right now it's too redundant compared to the dominating focus schools.

I continue to use Vazarin. This still works for frame invulnerability, instant resurrection, shield charging, and damage absorption with the dome. I just don't see the point in healing an object when the object's natural regeneration is just 20 times better than my healing. It's the same thing that the use of Titania passive for regeneration of Inaros.

Edited by selig_fay
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Am 9.9.2020 um 06:02 schrieb Opyt:

While I don't disagree with you, I just don't believe DE is competent enough to deliver on something that nuanced.  On the bright side it seems like someone accidentally flipped a switch and now Trinity's Blessing is healing for 100%.  Can't wait for that to get fixed.

I actually like that. That 500 HOT just didn't cut it, when enemies can deal more DPS to the pod as you can heal. Especially in those odd scenarios, where enemy level is higher then the Pod Health.. This thing melts in seconds, if unattended or people shoot those explosive infested instead of meleeing them.

Considering I only see DPS frames most of the time, this is a good tradeoff. So, you want to play risky, get a Trin. 

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43 minutes ago, NoSpax said:

I actually like that. That 500 HOT just didn't cut it, when enemies can deal more DPS to the pod as you can heal. Especially in those odd scenarios, where enemy level is higher then the Pod Health.. This thing melts in seconds, if unattended or people shoot those explosive infested instead of meleeing them.

Considering I only see DPS frames most of the time, this is a good tradeoff. So, you want to play risky, get a Trin.

The problem is that this is a bug that (if nothing changes) can be fixed and you will get back your 100 hps, instead of 100% healing. Well, I wrote in the next topic why people choose DPS often. In short, DPS do not need outside protection, and support and tank simply do not have tasks, because DPS can cope alone.

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