Railjack Revisited (Part 1): Healing Abilities on Objects Feedback Megathread

[Opyt]

On 2020-10-11 at 1:30 AM, Opyt said:

And with the recent home Devstream I'm even more concerned now.  As it's obvious you want to scale back the DPS potential of the playerbase.  When DPS fails, the sorry state of objective healing will be demonstrable.  There is no "tanking for the objective" in this game, especially as enemy damage increases to higher and higher levels.  Your options slowly become, as the previous poster has pointed out: Limbo, Limbo, and probably a little more Limbo, leaning obscenely hard on stasis being the best option for cc in a group that lacks the DPS to outright murder enemies.

Because I can't say it enough: not all design decisions are created equally, and this one, much like what people were saying with the release of Archwing way back in 2015 with Update 15, was a mistake.  I only hope you can remember that Archmelee is still trash even after you buffed it with the same patch that did the "fun factor" equivalent of what shattering the glass in the old Corpus Ship tileset did to the atmosphere of the room.

Objective health scales.  Enemy damage scales.  Why doesn't any of the objective healing scale?

Objective Healing is still in a pitiful state.

Objective health scales, why should objective healing be a flat stat?

[selig_fay]

14 hours ago, Opyt said:

Objective Healing is still in a pitiful state.

Objective health scales, why should objective healing be a flat stat?

I'm still waiting for them to do it. I don't know, but I seem to have heard that DE is going to work towards player and mob damage and if it does, it will make more sense. 

But im also,I would like them to release mods, buffs, vazarin perk to increase healing, but nerf all heal % including player healings. Why? To make healers work better than players who just set up arcane to operator. If the healing will counter the damage, then it will make sense. We don't need 10K of healing if opponents deal 200 damage even at 9999. On the other hand, weak healing will also make the immortal Inaros less immortal. 

But if that's not the case, then the healing nerf really doesn't make sense. Let's just say I'd really like to see a progression where we try to build up damage, healing, or defense, rather than just taking the A piece because it does %finishing damage.

[Opyt]

On 2020-10-17 at 6:16 AM, selig_fay said:

I'm still waiting for them to do it. I don't know, but I seem to have heard that DE is going to work towards player and mob damage and if it does, it will make more sense. 

But im also,I would like them to release mods, buffs, vazarin perk to increase healing, but nerf all heal % including player healings. Why? To make healers work better than players who just set up arcane to operator. If the healing will counter the damage, then it will make sense. We don't need 10K of healing if opponents deal 200 damage even at 9999. On the other hand, weak healing will also make the immortal Inaros less immortal. 

But if that's not the case, then the healing nerf really doesn't make sense. Let's just say I'd really like to see a progression where we try to build up damage, healing, or defense, rather than just taking the A piece because it does %finishing damage.

At this point, I'm just hoping they'll change the current state, and seek to remind them (in the form of bumping) that at least one formerly paying customer is unhappy with the current state of it and that said former paying customer is willing to go back to being a paying customer if it gets changed to something more acceptable.

If it's a case of toning back damage dealt by NPCs/Players, then it would have made more sense to have that change implemented, and then being ready to toss the second round of changes with objective healing.  Rather than putting the cart before the horse.  As it stands, we've had just under 6 months of this atrocious decision, which also included the ever so popular decision to also release Steel Path.  If you go into a tier 2 bounty on Deimos, you'll see excavators with 11000hp.  So you're not even getting 1%hp/s with the pitiful amount of healing they've allowed us to have.

The stated goal in the workshop was "to have alternatives and complements" to current defense metas (read: Limbo, Frost, etc) and I will continue to reiterate that this change, by itself because that's all we've had to work with for the past 6 months, has not accomplished that.

 

Even if it is the case, releasing the healing nerf before you were ready to tweak the damage numbers was still a poor decision.

[selig_fay]

4 hours ago, Opyt said:

At this point, I'm just hoping they'll change the current state, and seek to remind them (in the form of bumping) that at least one formerly paying customer is unhappy with the current state of it and that said former paying customer is willing to go back to being a paying customer if it gets changed to something more acceptable.

If it's a case of toning back damage dealt by NPCs/Players, then it would have made more sense to have that change implemented, and then being ready to toss the second round of changes with objective healing.  Rather than putting the cart before the horse.  As it stands, we've had just under 6 months of this atrocious decision, which also included the ever so popular decision to also release Steel Path.  If you go into a tier 2 bounty on Deimos, you'll see excavators with 11000hp.  So you're not even getting 1%hp/s with the pitiful amount of healing they've allowed us to have.

The stated goal in the workshop was "to have alternatives and complements" to current defense metas (read: Limbo, Frost, etc) and I will continue to reiterate that this change, by itself because that's all we've had to work with for the past 6 months, has not accomplished that.

 

Even if it is the case, releasing the healing nerf before you were ready to tweak the damage numbers was still a poor decision.

I just think the scarlet spear gave them an idea of how it should work. Khora have small healing, but when there are no alternatives, the small becomes great. And khora is really great at this right now. 

On the other hand, I never understood why the 3hps aura existed. Why health orbs heal 25hp. And why Titania got this passive trash. But perhaps it makes sense when it dont comes to millions of numbers.

I would like to believe that all this is not in vain. That healers will balance with each other. That healing will receive improvements, allowing you to sacrifice damage or vitality for that. That players will also get a nerf, making healers more relevant and making Inaros cry and use abilities. That the damage meta will drop. That tanks will finally become tanks and will distract the mobs. And there is still a lot of work and tens of thousands of reports that DE is doing bad things and not giving people a semi-AFK farm. Eh, I want to see this world on fire.

[Opyt]

On 2020-10-20 at 1:09 AM, selig_fay said:

I just think the scarlet spear gave them an idea of how it should work. Khora have small healing, but when there are no alternatives, the small becomes great. And khora is really great at this right now. 

On the other hand, I never understood why the 3hps aura existed. Why health orbs heal 25hp. And why Titania got this passive trash. But perhaps it makes sense when it dont comes to millions of numbers.

I would like to believe that all this is not in vain. That healers will balance with each other. That healing will receive improvements, allowing you to sacrifice damage or vitality for that. That players will also get a nerf, making healers more relevant and making Inaros cry and use abilities. That the damage meta will drop. That tanks will finally become tanks and will distract the mobs. And there is still a lot of work and tens of thousands of reports that DE is doing bad things and not giving people a semi-AFK farm. Eh, I want to see this world on fire.

I would rather the healing have some sort of impact on gameplay, which it lacks currently.  Given that last year we got Lich 1.0, where it outright killed you for simply having the wrong card slotted, which felt bad, I don't see them doing any better after they nerf the damage players do.  I'll be surprised if they do lower the damage NPCs vomit out, simply because DE has an identity crisis biannually (twice a year), and with DE Scott in the driver's seat we can bet the gas pedal's been crushed to the floor with a brick wall in front of us.

[selig_fay]

4 minutes ago, Opyt said:

I would rather the healing have some sort of impact on gameplay, which it lacks currently.  Given that last year we got Lich 1.0, where it outright killed you for simply having the wrong card slotted, which felt bad, I don't see them doing any better after they nerf the damage players do.  I'll be surprised if they do lower the damage NPCs vomit out, simply because DE has an identity crisis biannually (twice a year), and with DE Scott in the driver's seat we can bet the gas pedal's been crushed to the floor with a brick wall in front of us.

The problem is that all things are interconnected. Healing is not strong when you can kill mobs before they can fire. Frost domes are better than healing because the player can actually hold them indefinitely making the object invulnerable. Healers is unnecessary when everyone can heal themselves quite easily. The same goes for objects, when you can just CC enemies and the object will recover thanks to its regeneration. (which is sometimes well over 100hps, lol.)

I think vampirism is okay because you need to deal damage to heal yourself. But for example, such a thing as operator arcane, which heals at 20% per second in a large radius, is not normal. Everyone has this thing and it makes healers useless. 

I mean, those people who are actually playing healers now are focusing on buffs and group energy regeneration. When a normal healer is in the party, you almost not worry about energy even if your build is designed to use energy pizza all the time.

Healing, maybe 4 years, is a secondary thing. Before the nerf fell, no one was worried about it. But, if they buff the healing for objects - will it make the healing better? There are three stages of the game. One stage is when you don't worry about the object and just kill. The second stage is when the damage of opponents is not so strong and you can heal the object. The third stage is when healing is pointless, because opponents will easily destroy what you healed and you are more likely to lose than if you are CC or frost dome. The second stage does not last so long. This is a very small part of the game, and even less so if you are not using an ancient healer.

[Opyt]

On 2020-10-21 at 2:50 AM, selig_fay said:

The problem is that all things are interconnected. Healing is not strong when you can kill mobs before they can fire. Frost domes are better than healing because the player can actually hold them indefinitely making the object invulnerable. Healers is unnecessary when everyone can heal themselves quite easily. The same goes for objects, when you can just CC enemies and the object will recover thanks to its regeneration. (which is sometimes well over 100hps, lol.)

I think vampirism is okay because you need to deal damage to heal yourself. But for example, such a thing as operator arcane, which heals at 20% per second in a large radius, is not normal. Everyone has this thing and it makes healers useless. 

I mean, those people who are actually playing healers now are focusing on buffs and group energy regeneration. When a normal healer is in the party, you almost not worry about energy even if your build is designed to use energy pizza all the time.

Healing, maybe 4 years, is a secondary thing. Before the nerf fell, no one was worried about it. But, if they buff the healing for objects - will it make the healing better? There are three stages of the game. One stage is when you don't worry about the object and just kill. The second stage is when the damage of opponents is not so strong and you can heal the object. The third stage is when healing is pointless, because opponents will easily destroy what you healed and you are more likely to lose than if you are CC or frost dome. The second stage does not last so long. This is a very small part of the game, and even less so if you are not using an ancient healer.

Healing has always been secondary, but it wasn't until this year that they have completely gutted the ability to heal objectives.  That "second stage" happens pretty quickly if you're solo, as you can't cover everything by playing however you like.  Instead it lead to me beating Steel Path by following the meta, instead of by playing for fun.  I've never found "MOAR DAMAGE" to be all that compelling, and as a result I've fallen out of love with Warframe in its current state.  It's no longer possible for me to play how I want to, and instead if I want to be able to accomplish things on even the regular star chart, I have to follow a rigid structure.  In a game with hundreds of weapon choices, and dozens of Warframe choices, we wind up with only a handful of viable choices.

Given the track record of "NERF THE OVERWHELMINGLY POPULAR" options, it's a travesty to nerf a focus school that, in all likelihood (afaik they have NEVER revealed the statistics on the 5 focus schools) wasn't even in the top 3.

[Flying_Scorpion]

1 minute ago, Opyt said:

In a game with hundreds of weapon choices, and dozens of Warframe choices, we wind up with only a handful of viable choices.

I blame gross ranges of DPS. There's too many multiplier effects to have a fairly flat damage profile across various warframes and weapons. When you stack all the multipliers up, things get so exaggerated that the gap in damage output from one build to another is such orders of magnitude that it breaks the game. They've painted themselves into a corner by catering to the players who like seeing bigger numbers on their screen. 

[Opyt]

1 minute ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

I blame gross ranges of DPS. There's too many multiplier effects to have a fairly flat damage profile across various warframes and weapons. When you stack all the multipliers up, things get so exaggerated that the gap in damage output from one build to another is such orders of magnitude that it breaks the game. They've painted themselves into a corner by catering to the players who like seeing bigger numbers on their screen. 

Doesn't matter what the problem is in regards to the weapons, their brilliant solution was to instead remove the efficacy of healing stationary objectives.

[Flying_Scorpion]

Just now, Opyt said:

their brilliant solution was to instead remove the efficacy of healing stationary objectives.

Another reason they've painted themselves into this corner is because of the spiral of powercreep where whenever they nerf something, there's community backlash, and then the devs are less likely to nerf things again. But when they buff things, the community cheers them on (like backseat drivers who keep cheering you on whenever you keep accelerating a car). They need to start drawing lines and saying "look, if you don't like this nerf, too bad. Deal with it." and that's part of the reason why I initially supported their decision to nerf healing on defense objectives. Did they over-nerf it? Okay maybe they did. I don't know for sure, it's hard to quantify it. But what is for certain is that the responsibility of holding us out of this spiral of powercreep is for A) The developers to tell the players to "deal with it" when their excessive powercreep toys are nerfed. And for B) the community to show some self-restraint in abusing the developers whenever something gets nerfed.

Now listen. That doesn't mean I think their decision to nerf healing on defense objectives was well balanced. Look at the numbers. They're all nice round numbers and there's a lot of "5" in there. I think it's pretty obvious that they tend to just pull numbers off the top of their head and just slap it into the game without enough playtesting for their decision to withstand the test of time. In this case, they went with hard flat numbers that don't scale with anything! This means to me that they are aware of the problems of powercreep when they do % based healing/damage/anything. And also when they allow for too many multiplier effects to grow numbers into the sky. So their response? Over-nerfed. Yes it was probably over-nerfed. But in my opinion, it's a step in a direction that they need to start taking more of. People will backlash (and to some extent, the backlash is justified because this is lacking balance/playtesting); however, that goes back to point #1 .... the spiral, the self-reinforcing cycle, of players backlashing when things get nerfed, cheering when things get buffed, the devs caving in to those..... foolish players who only care about seeing bigger numbers. 

Please read carefully what I have written. Far too often people with lacking reading comprehension skills take what I say and distort it or don't fully comprehend what I'm saying and I find myself having to repeat myself over and over. Just read it over again if you don't get what I'm pointing out.

[selig_fay]

6 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

Another reason they've painted themselves into this corner is because of the spiral of powercreep where whenever they nerf something, there's community backlash, and then the devs are less likely to nerf things again. But when they buff things, the community cheers them on (like backseat drivers who keep cheering you on whenever you keep accelerating a car). They need to start drawing lines and saying "look, if you don't like this nerf, too bad. Deal with it." and that's part of the reason why I initially supported their decision to nerf healing on defense objectives. Did they over-nerf it? Okay maybe they did. I don't know for sure, it's hard to quantify it. But what is for certain is that the responsibility of holding us out of this spiral of powercreep is for A) The developers to tell the players to "deal with it" when their excessive powercreep toys are nerfed. And for B) the community to show some self-restraint in abusing the developers whenever something gets nerfed.

Now listen. That doesn't mean I think their decision to nerf healing on defense objectives was well balanced. Look at the numbers. They're all nice round numbers and there's a lot of "5" in there. I think it's pretty obvious that they tend to just pull numbers off the top of their head and just slap it into the game without enough playtesting for their decision to withstand the test of time. In this case, they went with hard flat numbers that don't scale with anything! This means to me that they are aware of the problems of powercreep when they do % based healing/damage/anything. And also when they allow for too many multiplier effects to grow numbers into the sky. So their response? Over-nerfed. Yes it was probably over-nerfed. But in my opinion, it's a step in a direction that they need to start taking more of. People will backlash (and to some extent, the backlash is justified because this is lacking balance/playtesting); however, that goes back to point #1 .... the spiral, the self-reinforcing cycle, of players backlashing when things get nerfed, cheering when things get buffed, the devs caving in to those..... foolish players who only care about seeing bigger numbers. 

Please read carefully what I have written. Far too often people with lacking reading comprehension skills take what I say and distort it or don't fully comprehend what I'm saying and I find myself having to repeat myself over and over. Just read it over again if you don't get what I'm pointing out.

This is what I am trying to say. But, unfortunately, it's easier to make warframe 2 than to fix everything. But if they really want to fix it, I would advise them to quit healing as it is and go into ability and energy. First of all, nerf all energy things into the ground, such as arcane energyze, but make sure that only 1 ability is dependent on energy. The rest are either cd, or some other resource or condition (ammo will work too). The energy is too broken. This is the core of the player's gameplay. And the strength of the abilities will need depend on this. Yes, Trinity can use the blessing to heal the object completely, but she has expended precious energy and it is not known if she can find it even faster than the next critical situation begin. 

But it will be a very long journey. For example, I know I will lose my razorwing, although this is the only reason why I keep playing. It is very difficult here to define what should be ult, and what should be gameplay abilities that are always available. (of course with restrictions in the form of cd and others). 

And that's just about ability. And then there is damage, protection, healing, a mod system, augments as a tree system of abilities, modular weapons instead of 100500 types of useless trash (really, you generate locations from blocks, why can't you make a mod system as a modular weapon?) And more, more, more

By the way, I like the system in mass effect. The fewer weapons you carry, the more you can use your abilities. I'm ready to use only secondary and one-handed melee to have the razorwing handy. However, weapons must compete with abilities (maybe even stronger, but then there must be an ammo problem for people to want to take more weapons).

[Flying_Scorpion]

@selig_fay all of your points are good. I remember seeing on a recent devstream where even DE Steve made a short side comment about how players have access to energy easily now, compared to the way it was before. Energy used to be a valuable resource that you would rarely come across, and using your ultimate was a big deal. Actually I remember it now, it was the devstream where they were talking about the helminth abilities and they noted that frequently players are replacing 1st abilities with abilities that cost more energy, and that's because the energy costs for casting abilities is practically negligible now. You can ignore it if you have arcane energize, a dethcube, or zenurik dash, rage, etc. One side effect of this is that warframes like Trinity and Harrow become less valuable, because their "rare" ability to create energy becomes useless. Same thing with healing. If you can just drop into operator mode and have a powerful, completely uncounterable % based healing effect on your warframe (as well as every other warframe in the vicinity)...why bring a trinity? Why bring a harrow? Why bring an oberon? They're not as valuable as they would be, if they weren't so easily replaced by all of other tools out there to produce unlimited energy/health.

But is taking away these tools fun? That's subjective. Is it balanced? Well here's the thing, either the power given to the players needs to be nerfed, or the enemies need to be buffed for the late game. Unfortunately, buffing the enemies has lead to a host of other poblems that show just how bad this death spiral of powercreep really is. Enemies are too tanky for non-meta builds. Enemies do so much damage that non-tank builds get shredded too fast. This reduces build diversity and options.

I think you make a good point with cooldown timers. It's hard to mess that up. If the devs give abilities cooldown timers, especially for something like an ultimate ability, devs can have a strong degree of control over how frequently that ability is used, and with a long cooldown timer, players have to strategically/skillfully reserve using it for special situations, rather than spamming it constantly with no worry about running out of energy.

Anyway there's nothing really more valuable to say here is it? You and I agree on a lot of this stuff. I've gotten bored of Warframe, I haven't been making youtube videos for it and I've been busy playing other games that provide me with some meaningful challenge and opportunities for skill growth within those games/systems. Hope these posts are helpful to other players and the developers. Cheers :)

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

I think you make a good point with cooldown timers. It's hard to mess that up. If the devs give abilities cooldown timers, especially for something like an ultimate ability, devs can have a strong degree of control over how frequently that ability is used, and with a long cooldown timer, players have to strategically/skillfully reserve using it for special situations, rather than spamming it constantly with no worry about running out of energy.

This is not my idea. This is the result of discussing one topic.

I also don't mind spamming abilities. But spamming abilities are not good for CD unless you do the number of charges or something like that (tracer blink from overwath). But this is why I would like the stamina to exist. A large pool and fast regeneration can be stable for movement, but if we add abilities here, we get a problem of choice, where you can do a lot of spam, but limit your mobility for a while. Well, as I said above, the weapon system can also affect this. Mass effect the weight of the weapon affects the cd of the abilities. This can be attributed to stamina regeneration. You can take 1 low damage pistol, but your stamina and abilities will be free, or you can take 4 large pupu and be overwhelmedoverwhelmed and limited. 

I think that the problem is also how the definition of power fantasy is interpreted. I think it should be more about flexibility than powercreep. But now people are fantasizing about the powers of the Nyx, but playing Mesa. And I think that powercreep! =  power fantasy, but on the contrary is opposite to it. On the other hand, flexibility should say that all game frames are difficult, but you have the ability to customize your gameplay.

Ok, I got carried away. It's just that everything should be interconnected.

[Opyt]

On 2020-10-22 at 5:27 AM, Flying_Scorpion said:

Another reason they've painted themselves into this corner is because of the spiral of powercreep where whenever they nerf something, there's community backlash, and then the devs are less likely to nerf things again. But when they buff things, the community cheers them on (like backseat drivers who keep cheering you on whenever you keep accelerating a car). They need to start drawing lines and saying "look, if you don't like this nerf, too bad. Deal with it." and that's part of the reason why I initially supported their decision to nerf healing on defense objectives. Did they over-nerf it? Okay maybe they did. I don't know for sure, it's hard to quantify it. But what is for certain is that the responsibility of holding us out of this spiral of powercreep is for A) The developers to tell the players to "deal with it" when their excessive powercreep toys are nerfed. And for B) the community to show some self-restraint in abusing the developers whenever something gets nerfed.

Now listen. That doesn't mean I think their decision to nerf healing on defense objectives was well balanced. Look at the numbers. They're all nice round numbers and there's a lot of "5" in there. I think it's pretty obvious that they tend to just pull numbers off the top of their head and just slap it into the game without enough playtesting for their decision to withstand the test of time. In this case, they went with hard flat numbers that don't scale with anything! This means to me that they are aware of the problems of powercreep when they do % based healing/damage/anything. And also when they allow for too many multiplier effects to grow numbers into the sky. So their response? Over-nerfed. Yes it was probably over-nerfed. But in my opinion, it's a step in a direction that they need to start taking more of. People will backlash (and to some extent, the backlash is justified because this is lacking balance/playtesting); however, that goes back to point #1 .... the spiral, the self-reinforcing cycle, of players backlashing when things get nerfed, cheering when things get buffed, the devs caving in to those..... foolish players who only care about seeing bigger numbers. 

Please read carefully what I have written. Far too often people with lacking reading comprehension skills take what I say and distort it or don't fully comprehend what I'm saying and I find myself having to repeat myself over and over. Just read it over again if you don't get what I'm pointing out.

We've run over this before.  I'm not necessarily after the original numbers.  I'm after tolerable numbers.

500hp over 5 seconds (100hp for 5 seconds is the only reason it's "a lot of 5s" there).  A low percentage at 20%+500 over 5 seconds (4%+100/s) would work far better than "500hp over 5 seconds" on the basis that once you get past the inner planets (being generous and going with Mars/Phobos), the healing is completely and utterly pointless. 

Going down the list:
Equinox requires defeating Tyl Regor on Uranus.
Protective Dash requires beating the Neptune -> Pluto junction to unlock War Within.
Trinity requires beating Ambulas on Pluto.
Wisp requires beating flydolon & getting to at least the Sacrifice if my memory serves me.
Khora requires Sanctuary Onslaught, which I believe is MR locked so you're probably not gonna be using Venari to heal up to Mars/Phobos.
Nidus requires Eris (post-Pluto)
Hydroid (with augment) requires at least Ceres (again, they've changed it so much since release that I'm not sure any more, at launch I remember something about beacons that dropped from prospectors on Ceres)
Harrow requires Chains of Harrow.
Hildryn requires Exploiter Orb.

That leaves you with, potentially, Oberon, Volt (with Augment), Ancient Healer Specters (which requires New Loka invasions), and maybe Gara with her augment.  The perfect storm of any single one of these options is not very likely to occur where it's effective with Oberon being the most likely, which leaves me with my conclusion of "It's not worth using.".

If tomorrow they decided that Zenurik was too strong, so they brought it down to 1 energy over 5 seconds at max rank, so that it was just a focus school edition of Energy Siphon, I'm pretty sure people might be upset.  Unairu Wisps suddenly only giving a +25% operator amp damage at max rank, or Madurai's Void Strike capped out at 1.5x damage against Eidolons, suddenly Tridolon players might be upset.  Or maybe Naramon's combo counter effect became "lose half of your counter if the timer expires".  All of these "extreme examples" are what they did to Vazarin's Protective Dash for objective healing.  That's why I'm so upset with the changes even 6 months later.

In regards to your A & B:
A) If they say that, then I'm perfectly within my bounds to say "Then I won't support you with my money any more."
&
B) If I were really after abusing them, I wouldn't be pleading for it to be changed to something with a little more common sense than just 500hp over 5 seconds with objectives that have thousands or tens of thousands of health in the intended mode everything is allegedly balanced around.

Again, I don't expect it to be brought back to where it was, I just want it to make more sense than pissing in an empty 55 gallon drum once and stating that the drum is full.

On 2020-10-22 at 11:40 AM, selig_fay said:

Yes, Trinity can use the blessing to heal the object completely, but she has expended precious energy and it is not known if she can find it even faster than the next critical situation begin. 

Trinity completely healing the objective is a bug.

Though there is a chance it could simply be an "undocumented change".

[selig_fay]

7 minutes ago, Opyt said:

Trinity completely healing the objective is a bug.

Though there is a chance it could simply be an "undocumented change".

I'm talking about how 100% Trinity healing would be balanced. I don't care if it's a bug. I just don't like this crutch they made.

 

19 minutes ago, Opyt said:

We've run over this before. I'm not necessarily after the original numbers. I'm after tolerable numbers.

500hp over 5 seconds (100hp for 5 seconds is the only reason it's "a lot of 5s" there). A low percentage at 20%+500 over 5 seconds (4%+100/s) would work far better than "500hp over 5 seconds" on the basis that once you get past the inner planets (being generous and going with Mars/Phobos), the healing is completely and utterly pointless.

Going down the list:
Equinox requires defeating Tyl Regor on Uranus.
Protective Dash requires beating the Neptune -> Pluto junction to unlock War Within.
Trinity requires beating Ambulas on Pluto.
Wisp requires beating flydolon & getting to at least the Sacrifice if my memory serves me.
Khora requires Sanctuary Onslaught, which I believe is MR locked so you're probably not gonna be using Venari to heal up to Mars/Phobos.
Nidus requires Eris (post-Pluto)
Hydroid (with augment) requires at least Ceres (again, they've changed it so much since release that I'm not sure any more, at launch I remember something about beacons that dropped from prospectors on Ceres)
Harrow requires Chains of Harrow.
Hildryn requires Exploiter Orb.

That leaves you with, potentially, Oberon, Volt (with Augment), Ancient Healer Specters (which requires New Loka invasions), and maybe Gara with her augment. The perfect storm of any single one of these options is not very likely to occur where it's effective with Oberon being the most likely, which leaves me with my conclusion of "It's not worth using.".

If tomorrow they decided that Zenurik was too strong, so they brought it down to 1 energy over 5 seconds at max rank, so that it was just a focus school edition of Energy Siphon, I'm pretty sure people might be upset. Unairu Wisps suddenly only giving a +25% operator amp damage at max rank, or Madurai's Void Strike capped out at 1.5x damage against Eidolons, suddenly Tridolon players might be upset. Or maybe Naramon's combo counter effect became "lose half of your counter if the timer expires". All of these "extreme examples" are what they did to Vazarin's Protective Dash for objective healing. That's why I'm so upset with the changes even 6 months later.

In regards to your A & B:
A) If they say that, then I'm perfectly within my bounds to say "Then I won't support you with my money any more."
&
B) If I were really after abusing them, I wouldn't be pleading for it to be changed to something with a little more common sense than just 500hp over 5 seconds with objectives that have thousands or tens of thousands of health in the intended mode everything is allegedly balanced around.

Again, I don't expect it to be brought back to where it was, I just want it to make more sense than pissing in an empty 55 gallon drum once and stating that the drum is full.

Let me explain why you are wrong and % will not change anything. This is standard math. When you have %, you have a difficult balance of things. 

The first reason is the gameplay. When a mob deals 5 damage to a target of 100 hp, if you heal the target with a flat value of 2 hp, the mob has a chance to kill the object. The gameplay happens here, healing doesn't turn off the gameplay. Now we will take 2% of the healing. 100 hp is 2hps. 300hp is 6hps-mob can't kill, gameplay is disabled. But if we go 50hp-1ps-it's much worse than a flat value.

The second reason is the lack of progression of healers. The same can be said about DPS. The percentage applied to target is a bad thing for progression. The damage percentage works the same on all levels. You will kill 5 LVL mobs and 9999 LVL mobs with the same efficiency. You don't feel challenged, because you will kill with the same efficiency. The same goes for healing. You won't feel challenged because you heal equally at level 5 and level 100. But healing has one difference - it does not depend on mobs, but on the object, which means that sooner or later the damage of mobs will make your % healing meaningless. On the other hand, a weapon with a flat damage value has a progression, healing does not. You have no way to make your healing higher. % is not a progression, it is a dependency on the mission. The progression should depend on what and how exactly I set up. And here we get the opposite result, where I can make a cruel healer who will stand more than if the percentage worked. 

Again, to connect these points, I will give the example of the immortal inaros. Large hp is not strong, but Inaros is immortal because how % healing works. Flat values can fix this.

Third, I probably won't tell it any better than this person will in the video.

 

[Opyt]

12 hours ago, selig_fay said:

I'm talking about how 100% Trinity healing would be balanced. I don't care if it's a bug. I just don't like this crutch they made.

 

Let me explain why you are wrong and % will not change anything. This is standard math. When you have %, you have a difficult balance of things. 

The first reason is the gameplay. When a mob deals 5 damage to a target of 100 hp, if you heal the target with a flat value of 2 hp, the mob has a chance to kill the object. The gameplay happens here, healing doesn't turn off the gameplay. Now we will take 2% of the healing. 100 hp is 2hps. 300hp is 6hps-mob can't kill, gameplay is disabled. But if we go 50hp-1ps-it's much worse than a flat value.

The second reason is the lack of progression of healers. The same can be said about DPS. The percentage applied to target is a bad thing for progression. The damage percentage works the same on all levels. You will kill 5 LVL mobs and 9999 LVL mobs with the same efficiency. You don't feel challenged, because you will kill with the same efficiency. The same goes for healing. You won't feel challenged because you heal equally at level 5 and level 100. But healing has one difference - it does not depend on mobs, but on the object, which means that sooner or later the damage of mobs will make your % healing meaningless. On the other hand, a weapon with a flat damage value has a progression, healing does not. You have no way to make your healing higher. % is not a progression, it is a dependency on the mission. The progression should depend on what and how exactly I set up. And here we get the opposite result, where I can make a cruel healer who will stand more than if the percentage worked. 

Again, to connect these points, I will give the example of the immortal inaros. Large hp is not strong, but Inaros is immortal because how % healing works. Flat values can fix this.

Third, I probably won't tell it any better than this person will in the video.

I disagree very strongly with this stance.

The purpose of wanting the percentage is so that you can expect a reliable result.  Sure with flat numbers you get a ""reliable result"" but the result is hilariously bad and obsolete by the time you gain access to them, hence why I described it as peeing once in an empty 55 gallon drum and calling it full.

The progression for healing with Protective Dash is tied to the focus school leveling, using the example of "20% over 5 seconds" that I suggested earlier, with 4 ranks for Protective Dash having it be 1%-2%-3%-4% would mean you would gain 1%/s healing per level.  Progression for Warframe healing is tied in directly to your mod collection.

Your fun little 10 minute video is talking about how being over leveled/geared for content means no one has to heal, and if anyone needs healing, it's just a quick gear switch away.  The argument I got from it is "LOL CHOCIES BAD", "just bring more dps".  "Just bring more DPS" is code for "LOL YOU'RE DUMB, PLAY IT OUR WAY OR #*!% OFF", which is about as far from making something a "viable alternative" as you can get.  What I want is "player choice", what you are describing is simply explained as "player compulsion".  I want healing to feel like it matters, while you seem to just want me to pack up my things and gtfo of your game.  I don't want what you seem to be indicating, and I'm going to keep saying as much.

 

I get it, you think my opinion on objective healing is S#&$ but if I don't share my opinion it'll look like everyone agrees with how it is, and I don't.  Therefore I share my opinion on it.  And I bump the topic roughly once a week because I want to do my best to make it clear to at least one of the staff members gets the message that there is someone thoroughly dissatisfied with the state of objective healing.

[selig_fay]

9 hours ago, Opyt said:

The purpose of wanting the percentage is so that you can expect a reliable result. Sure with flat numbers you get a ""reliable result"" but the result is hilariously bad and obsolete by the time you gain access to them,hence why I described it as peeing once in an empty 55 gallon drum and calling it full.

It all depends on how it will be configured. Flat values are easy to set up. In addition to the percentage, there are also other modifiers that can affect flat healing, which will be more convenient to configure. On the other hand, % is inconvenient. An excavator doesn't have as much hp as a cryocapsule. 

9 hours ago, Opyt said:

The progression for healing with Protective Dash is tied to the focus school leveling, using the example of "20% over 5 seconds" that I suggested earlier, with 4 ranks for Protective Dash having it be 1%-2%-3%-4% would mean you would gain 1%/s healing per level. Progression for Warframe healing is tied in directly to your mod collection.

No. As I explained earlier, % works the same for level 5 and level 100, because the object's health is scaled from the mission level. This is why there is no difference between level 5 and level 100. And this prevents the progression from working.

10 hours ago, Opyt said:

Your fun little 10 minute video is talking about how being over leveled/geared for content means no one has to heal, and if anyone needs healing, it's just a quick gear switch away. The argument I got from it is "LOL CHOCIES BAD", "just bring more dps". "Just bring more DPS" is code for "LOL YOU'RE DUMB, PLAY IT OUR WAY OR #*!% OFF", which is about as far from making something a "viable alternative" as you can get. What I want is "player choice", what you are describing is simply explained as "player compulsion". I want healing to feel like it matters, while you seem to just want me to pack up my things and gtfo of your game. I don't want what you seem to be indicating, and I'm going to keep saying as much.

No one forces you to play healer. You can play DPS. But you should experience DPS issues. I mean, why should you be better than a player who wants to be a healer just because you took vazarin? The same can be said about Frost. Healing is useless because Frost dome is scalded from enemy damage. Mobs literally can't kill it. And we can do something like a billion damage to mobs, it doesn't matter. Moreover, a billion damage makes healing an object useless, because we don't have the ability to heal oneshot.

10 hours ago, Opyt said:

I get it, you think my opinion on objective healing is S#&$ but if I don't share my opinion it'll look like everyone agrees with how it is, and I don't. Therefore I share my opinion on it. And I bump the topic roughly once a week because I want to do my best to make it clear to at least one of the staff members gets the message that there is someone thoroughly dissatisfied with the state of objective healing.

Your opinion is good. I've thought about this before. But I think the percentage of healing - it should be a panic button that shouldn't be available all the time. This can be built into the mission mechanics and it won't interfere with healer if it work how any player can interact with the console once every 5 minutes to fully heal the cryocapsule. Or as I said above, this should be a very difficult ult. 

The only problem why you think the percentage is better is thousands of HP mobs and objects, as well as millions of player damage. At the same time, many players have something like 1000 HP. I will not count resists, because healing only restores HP. (well, shields, but shields are also HP) If the opponents don't have thousands of damage and the object doesn't have hundreds of thousands of HP, then we don't need to have percentage healing, because flat values are balanced around that. And it's also good for communicating with the Conclave.

There are a lot of options for how this can be done. I think the percentage is the worst of them and the most difficult to set up. It's just a game of numbers.

By the way, this is why stamina didn't work with blocking. It wasn't a bad mechanic, but the mobs ' damage was very high. But even now, when there is no stamina, and the block absorbs 100% damage, do you use it? Do you build your gameplay around this? This is just an alternative example of why everything is broken.

[Opyt]

18 hours ago, selig_fay said:

It all depends on how it will be configured. Flat values are easy to set up. In addition to the percentage, there are also other modifiers that can affect flat healing, which will be more convenient to configure. On the other hand, % is inconvenient. An excavator doesn't have as much hp as a cryocapsule. 

No. As I explained earlier, % works the same for level 5 and level 100, because the object's health is scaled from the mission level. This is why there is no difference between level 5 and level 100. And this prevents the progression from working.

No one forces you to play healer. You can play DPS. But you should experience DPS issues. I mean, why should you be better than a player who wants to be a healer just because you took vazarin? The same can be said about Frost. Healing is useless because Frost dome is scalded from enemy damage. Mobs literally can't kill it. And we can do something like a billion damage to mobs, it doesn't matter. Moreover, a billion damage makes healing an object useless, because we don't have the ability to heal oneshot.

Your opinion is good. I've thought about this before. But I think the percentage of healing - it should be a panic button that shouldn't be available all the time. This can be built into the mission mechanics and it won't interfere with healer if it work how any player can interact with the console once every 5 minutes to fully heal the cryocapsule. Or as I said above, this should be a very difficult ult. 

The only problem why you think the percentage is better is thousands of HP mobs and objects, as well as millions of player damage. At the same time, many players have something like 1000 HP. I will not count resists, because healing only restores HP. (well, shields, but shields are also HP) If the opponents don't have thousands of damage and the object doesn't have hundreds of thousands of HP, then we don't need to have percentage healing, because flat values are balanced around that. And it's also good for communicating with the Conclave.

There are a lot of options for how this can be done. I think the percentage is the worst of them and the most difficult to set up. It's just a game of numbers.

By the way, this is why stamina didn't work with blocking. It wasn't a bad mechanic, but the mobs ' damage was very high. But even now, when there is no stamina, and the block absorbs 100% damage, do you use it? Do you build your gameplay around this? This is just an alternative example of why everything is broken.

Excavator not having the same health is PRECISELY why percentage would be better.  2500hp over 5 seconds would substantially heal an excavator on Pluto, but would heal less than 10% of the defense objective on Sedna.

The progression isn't baked into the mission, the healing effectiveness is baked into the progression.  20% over 5 seconds would be wildly more effective than 4% over 5 seconds, in the example I suggested (5%, 10%, 15%, 20% would be the progression on Protective Dash, and then add flat amounts [so 25-50-75-100 flat+respective%]).  You're right, it wouldn't be "progression" during the mission.  I use Protective Dash as an example, because DE has made it comparable to intended Equinox and Trinity numbers.

I would CHOOSE to play healer but these changes FORCE me to drop healing and play DPS instead.  It should be comparable because you have invested as much time into healing as the person that wants to play a healing Warframe.  Or, if you were a dummy like me and did it BEFORE the focus cap changes, you spent MORE time on it.  It's about return on investment.  You're also choosing Vazarin over Naramon or Zenurik for the star chart.  Energizing Dash is far more effective than Protective Dash, and even if it were flat+%, it'd still be wildly more effective because, as you stated, Frost exists (as does Limbo, Khora, Gara, and so on), but at least Protective Dash would be viable, instead of where it is now, where enemy damage overwhelms the objective.

-

I think percentage is better because, as stated in the first point: the objective health varies wildly.  Excavators have 5300 health on Hieracon, Pluto, but defense objective on Hydron, Sedna has 42k health.  Flat+% would, again, be far more effective.  It would also at least counteract some of the damage that enemies deal as their levels scale higher. 

Right now, using the wiki, which may or may not be accurate, to view the base damage of a charger we can see that at level 35 a charger does roughly 35 damage a swing, (1+0.015*(x−0)^1.55), and at a base level of 45 a charger deals roughly 6.5 damage a swing, but that doesn't factor in the bloated enemy scaling formula which is an addition bonus modifier tacked on, _1+0.015*(x-35)^1.55=Hieracon_, so that same enemy from the hypothetical level 0 mission, would be doing 35 damage a swing, but after a few minutes when enemy level hits 45, its damage would scale up 1.5x to 52.5 while still being only level 45.  Why is this important?  Because that means a charger swinging once a second is taking away half the effectiveness of your healing from Protective Dash, Mend or Blessing as they are now.  At level 50 it's doing 2x the base damage, of 70.  So now with the enemy at level 50 you're getting a net +30 out of your healing abilities.  Against a single charger.  And that's not even factoring into the fact that Excavators are Flesh on their HP bar, which takes bonus damage from slash.  I'm sure you can guess what damage type a charger deals.

On the plus side (for the max health department of excavators) as of 27.2 they scale with level of the mission, so at least now they're intended to have more than the 1500 health of yesteryear in higher level missions, so now they get an increase to their max health.  Now they're sitting at a marginally beefier 1894 shields & 5684 health on Hieracon, but 100 health/s isn't even 2%/s of the health on the "new & improved beefier" excavators of Hieracon, which is where having flat+% would allow the flat amounts to shine greatest, opposed to places like defense objectives where the % would overshadow the flat amounts.  At the end of the day, it's just delaying the inevitable.  I don't have a problem with delaying the inevitable, but clearly you do, since you've said that percentage based healing is unhealthy for the game.  I think at one time you (unless I'm mistaken) even requested healing that scales up with enemy levels, and while that might be interesting, I sincerely doubt DE is capable of doing that.

Which brings me to the part I keep going on and on about:
EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME SCALES EXCEPT FOR OBJECTIVE HEALING.  As it stands objectives DO have hundreds of thousands of hp and enemies DO deal damage measured in hundreds and that means that 100hp/s isn't cutting it.

They are 100% perfectly capable of easily implementing percentage based healing.  Trinity is percentage based healing.  Vazarin was and for non-stationary objectives is percentage based healing.  Mend absorbs a percentage of damage dealt as healing, and then gives the absorbed damage as a flat amount at end of cast.  Harrow is 5% of damage dealt as healing.  All 4 of these examples are significantly diminished by the changes to objective healing.  And understandably so, damage numbers have gotten ridiculous, so Harrow and Equinox healing at full potential would get ridiculous.  Trinity being percentage based and that percentage starting at 75% is also understandably ridiculous.  Protective Dash as a tool went from 60% over 5 seconds (which was ridiculous) while also giving 100% damage reduction (to everything but mobile defense objectives-- but that's a significant digression).  So, yes, I can believe that scaling them back was important.  Scaling them back as far as they did however was an abysmal decision.  Of that I have no doubts, and that's why I want them to reconsider a change they made 6 months ago to be more in line of where the game is at instead of where they wish the game were at.  

For the record: blocking doesn't give 100% damage absorption, you still take damage from AOE weapons/attacks (ground slams, bombard rockets, and you can still be hit with status effects (like slash or toxin) despite blocking the enemy's attacks.  You can see for yourself using a loki with a sword & shield weapon (which all got bumped down to 70 degree blocking angle from the original 90 that I remember).

[selig_fay]

9 hours ago, Opyt said:

EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME SCALES EXCEPT FOR OBJECTIVE HEALING

This is my thought. If everything in this game has only flat numbers, then it will be easier to balance. If now you just roll a% heal, it will either be weak% or strong. This will only be normal in some aspects that will not be common in the game.

9 hours ago, Opyt said:

For the record: blocking doesn't give 100% damage absorption, you still take damage from AOE weapons/attacks (ground slams, bombard rockets, and you can still be hit with status effects (like slash or toxin) despite blocking the enemy's attacks.  You can see for yourself using a loki with a sword & shield weapon (which all got bumped down to 70 degree blocking angle from the original 90 that I remember)

I know perfectly well how it works now. All I say is that they buff it, but it still remains useless because it means little to the combat system. Why would I want to block damage if the mobs won't kill me anyway? Healing and high resistance make immortal builds possible. Because of this, the developers are trying to give high damage to mobs, which oneshot everything that is not like inaros. (ok they gave us a shieldgate, but you understand). Oneshot makes healers useless because you can't heal oneshot. 

I will say it again, all things are interconnected. 

On the other hand, I can see how well Wisp and Khora work, even considering how painful it is to hit mobs in Deimos. Maybe it's because the objects on Deimos have high armor, and the healing benefits from the resists, you know.

[Opyt]

8 hours ago, selig_fay said:

This is my thought. If everything in this game has only flat numbers, then it will be easier to balance. If now you just roll a% heal, it will either be weak% or strong. This will only be normal in some aspects that will not be common in the game.

I know perfectly well how it works now. All I say is that they buff it, but it still remains useless because it means little to the combat system. Why would I want to block damage if the mobs won't kill me anyway? Healing and high resistance make immortal builds possible. Because of this, the developers are trying to give high damage to mobs, which oneshot everything that is not like inaros. (ok they gave us a shieldgate, but you understand). Oneshot makes healers useless because you can't heal oneshot. 

I will say it again, all things are interconnected. 

On the other hand, I can see how well Wisp and Khora work, even considering how painful it is to hit mobs in Deimos. Maybe it's because the objects on Deimos have high armor, and the healing benefits from the resists, you know.

Yeah, that's where the compromise of flat+% comes in.  The current game does NOT have flat numbers.  As a result it is not a good idea to use flat numbers.  Balancing the game you have against the game you wish you had.  

Yeah, everything is interconnected, which is why it's so jarring when something isn't connected.  Objective healing as flat numbers is completely disconnected.  The numbers are not connected to anything, and, in the case of Protective Dash, it doesn't increase.  At all.  Period.

but, and I'm going to keep hitting on it, EVERYTHING at the very least scales based on mission level, and since it would be way more complex and difficult to explain how healing works in tooltips: percentage of max health inherently scales with base mission level.  Flat amount +% would be the best of both worlds for the purposes of making objective healing more effective across the board.

Objects in Deimos actually scale based on mission level, while excavators on the star chart don't seem to scale the same way as the excavators on Deimos in the endless mission have higher base health despite being a "lower level" mission (by about 10 levels).

[selig_fay]

13 hours ago, Opyt said:

Yeah, that's where the compromise of flat+% comes in.  The current game does NOT have flat numbers.  As a result it is not a good idea to use flat numbers.  Balancing the game you have against the game you wish you had

The only composition here is that when you use a percentage, you get a flat value. As I said, % is not bad. I've seen where healing depends on your HP and it works well. From your hp. This means you still get a flat value no matter who the target is. And it's a Warframe specific ability, which means you can nerf and buff it however you want. You clearly understand what kind of healing will be in the end.

As I said before,% can be modifiers that increase or decrease the incoming and outgoing healing. 

But I've never seen this work exactly the full percentage. To be honest, it doesn't work well even in warframe.

Ok, a living example is Inaros vs Atlas. Due to the fact that Inaros has 4 times more HP, he is immortal, because Arcanes have a percentage. This means Atlas has 4 less healing slots. Atlas is not immortal if he does the same as Inaros. And this is how the % heal breaks the game. And what will you do in this situation? Nerf% - then Atlas will suffer. Leave it as it is, Inaros will continue to ignore the game. Increase the damage of mobs? Everyone will suffer. Do mobs % damage? We're getting on the path of yet another percentage crutch. Nerf hp Inaros? But why? Big Hp is not a problem as long as it is difficult to recover.

What you say is simple and logical in words. I agree that it would be better if it had a percentage. But this carries so many problems that in fact there are only two stages - either it is useless or it breaks the game. The fact that this will work in one mission in the game is rather an exception that proves the rule. But what they have done now is also not good. But, it does make it clear how flat numbers work. As I pointed out above, Wisp, Oberon and Khora work well.

[Opyt]

21 hours ago, selig_fay said:

The only composition here is that when you use a percentage, you get a flat value. As I said, % is not bad. I've seen where healing depends on your HP and it works well. From your hp. This means you still get a flat value no matter who the target is. And it's a Warframe specific ability, which means you can nerf and buff it however you want. You clearly understand what kind of healing will be in the end.

As I said before,% can be modifiers that increase or decrease the incoming and outgoing healing. 

But I've never seen this work exactly the full percentage. To be honest, it doesn't work well even in warframe.

Ok, a living example is Inaros vs Atlas. Due to the fact that Inaros has 4 times more HP, he is immortal, because Arcanes have a percentage. This means Atlas has 4 less healing slots. Atlas is not immortal if he does the same as Inaros. And this is how the % heal breaks the game. And what will you do in this situation? Nerf% - then Atlas will suffer. Leave it as it is, Inaros will continue to ignore the game. Increase the damage of mobs? Everyone will suffer. Do mobs % damage? We're getting on the path of yet another percentage crutch. Nerf hp Inaros? But why? Big Hp is not a problem as long as it is difficult to recover.

What you say is simple and logical in words. I agree that it would be better if it had a percentage. But this carries so many problems that in fact there are only two stages - either it is useless or it breaks the game. The fact that this will work in one mission in the game is rather an exception that proves the rule. But what they have done now is also not good. But, it does make it clear how flat numbers work. As I pointed out above, Wisp, Oberon and Khora work well.

I don't know, I assumed that when I said % it was understood as % of "target" max health.  So the objective with a lot of health would receive the same amount of healing, as a percentage, as the objective with less health.  Prior to these changes Protective Dash did exactly that, though you also had people just dashing twice through the objective over the course of 5 seconds and healing the objective fully.  You can still get that effect from the Kuva Fortress Defense mission.  What happened there was that you could refresh the duration on the buff (which, you notably cannot do currently) which if you timed it right (say 2-3 seconds after the initial dash it would refill a large majority of the health).  The limiting factor there was Operator Energy, as there was no way you'll be able to keep Protective Dash going indefinitely, but you can still delay it for that moment in time, 5 seconds at a time.

Atlas v. Inaros is the question of Magus Repair versus Magus Nourish.  A better example would be comparing a low hp caster frame, like Mag as an example, and Inaros.  Right now all we have is Magus Nourish.  Magus Nourish is fine on low hp frames, while it is virtually worthless on Inaros.  Sure Magus Repair is ridiculous, but it, or something like it, is vital to a frame like Inaros or Grendel, where most of what they have going for them is "being a big chonky boy" as one of the Warframe partners might say.  When I look at Defense Objectives I see Magus Nourish + Inaros combo.  I don't like that, so I want it to be closer to Magus Repair + Inaros.

Wisp, Oberon and Khora are all set & forget too though, which is not what you get from Trinity, Equinox or Protective Dash.  With the latter 3 you get an explicitly "Does not stack.", which even releasing that "Does not stack" would go lightyears towards improving the efficacy of healing on Trinity, Equinox, and Protective Dash, and DE won't even give us that.  Imagine if you could dash through the objective 6 times and heal it for 600hp/s, for 3000 over 5s, instead of the hardcapped piddly 100hp/s for 500 over 5s.  It wouldn't be anywhere near as effective as it once was, nor would it be as effective as I want it, but it would still be astronomically more effective, and as a result of it being more effective: more fun for me at least.  I was playing Warframe because it was fun.  These changes sucked the fun out of the game for me.  I want some kind of way to recoup the loss of fun per hour that has occurred since May.  I still pop in occasionally, but the decision to eviscerate what I found fun, being able to delay enemies from destroying an objective, which still required being able to kill the enemies mind you, was fun.  It allowed me the freedom to bring what I wanted into a mission, instead of being forced to leave a mission earlier simply because the gear doesn't keep up with the enemies.

It went from being about "bring what's fun" to "bring what works", and the significant difference in "bring what works" is what leads to things like Arcane Strike, stacking attack speed, and bringing a hammer zaw with Shattering Ruin & Exodia Hunt to spam vacuum ad nauseam.  That's not "fun" to me.  That's just performing a task, there's no fluidity to it, no adaptation to the situation, just the rigid structures of how someone who probably doesn't even play the game believes their game should be played.

[Flying_Scorpion]

On 2020-10-24 at 4:20 AM, Opyt said:

on the basis that once you get past the inner planets (being generous and going with Mars/Phobos), the healing is completely and utterly pointless. 

Yeah I know that. Like in steel path, 100 hp/s is fairly negligible. 

In terms of how to solve the problem, I'm not sure what the best solution is. The more they add % total based healing/damage to the game, the more weird little problems seem to come up in the first place...which I think might be indicative of more playtesting needing to be done. But this seems to be the way things go with Warframe. They do balance passes back and forth, nerfing/buffing stuff, but sometimes it's a very long wait between balance passes.

 

Okay I'll read the rest of your comment now.

......

I just finished reading. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

[Opyt]

4 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

Yeah I know that. Like in steel path, 100 hp/s is fairly negligible. 

In terms of how to solve the problem, I'm not sure what the best solution is. The more they add % total based healing/damage to the game, the more weird little problems seem to come up in the first place...which I think might be indicative of more playtesting needing to be done. But this seems to be the way things go with Warframe. They do balance passes back and forth, nerfing/buffing stuff, but sometimes it's a very long wait between balance passes.

 

Okay I'll read the rest of your comment now.

......

I just finished reading. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Yeah, I'm mostly disappointed in the initial "balancing" decision.  I'm pretty sure if they had just removed the 5 seconds of invulnerability from Protective Dash it would have been fine, because with low objective health 60% isn't that much, it was the combination of 60%+invulnerable while healing.  Enemies can do well over 60% of the objective's health.  Hell if you're fighting Stalker in the wrong spot on Venus he can practically one-shot the objective with his exalted sword waves.

I'm still in the bargaining stage, which is why I'd tolerate something as low as 20% over 5 seconds (a minuscule 4%/sec, which would seem to be really simple, since they previously had the code at 12%/s at max rank), though I'd rather they considered enemy damage in relation to the heal numbers instead of slapping a good enough sticker on it.

I would even go so far as to say in Steel Path, 100hp/s is intolerable.

[Leuca]

Am I the only person who hasn't seemed to encounter the predicted devastation because of the healing nerf? Steel Path defense nodes are basically fine with only a Wisp for healing if your team is relatively functional. Any reasonable amount of CC will allow it to maintain health pretty reliably in my experience.