Railjack Revisited (Part 1): Healing Abilities on Objects Feedback Megathread

[Opyt]

On 2020-10-30 at 6:42 AM, Leuca said:

Am I the only person who hasn't seemed to encounter the predicted devastation because of the healing nerf? Steel Path defense nodes are basically fine with only a Wisp for healing if your team is relatively functional. Any reasonable amount of CC will allow it to maintain health pretty reliably in my experience.

And, beyond the bolded portion: Vitality Motes are set & forget.  You have to actively play to get functionally less healing out of Trinity/Equinox/Vazarin, as with power strength you can also surpass the hard limit of 500hp over 5 seconds that DE has graciously allowed to exist alongside Vitality Motes.

I'm sure you always have a team ready to play, but there are others less fortunate than you or I.  That and I want my attempts at healing to actually #*!%ing matter regardless of if I'm stuck in solo or not, instead of just S#&$ting out more dps like everyone else clearly wants to do.

[Leuca]

On 2020-11-02 at 7:45 PM, Opyt said:

And, beyond the bolded portion: Vitality Motes are set & forget.  You have to actively play to get functionally less healing out of Trinity/Equinox/Vazarin, as with power strength you can also surpass the hard limit of 500hp over 5 seconds that DE has graciously allowed to exist alongside Vitality Motes.

I'm sure you always have a team ready to play, but there are others less fortunate than you or I.  That and I want my attempts at healing to actually #*!%ing matter regardless of if I'm stuck in solo or not, instead of just S#&$ting out more dps like everyone else clearly wants to do.

Unless it was recently patched out, my Trinity's blessing provides a damage reduction boost to the objective on top of healing it, thereby making all my healing more effective over time.

I don't think Equinox's healing is in a great spot regardless of how it affects objectives; it's clunky and unreliable at best.

[Opyt]

On 2020-11-04 at 6:37 PM, Leuca said:

Unless it was recently patched out, my Trinity's blessing provides a damage reduction boost to the objective on top of healing it, thereby making all my healing more effective over time.

I don't think Equinox's healing is in a great spot regardless of how it affects objectives; it's clunky and unreliable at best.

Trinity DR is capped at 50%, so that is working as intended at least.

Maybe that's why it bothered me so much: Trinity, Equinox and Protective Dash all require active healing.  While most of the other abilities' healing is based on being able to do something else, while those 3 are setting aside time to heal.

[Opyt]

Psst, DE:

It's still not in an "okay" state for active healing, set & forgets might be okay, but actively healing (Trinity, Equinox, Protective Dash) are certainly not "okay".

[TheLexiConArtist]

DE, it is imperative to revisit this. Abilities might be 'consistent', but that doesn't help when they're now consistently impotent and can't do the job set out for them.

This change is another one of the 'we told you so' catastrophes that you seem intent on sweeping under the rug, and it's really inexcusable.

Supportive abilities needed to be improved and encouraged, not to have a few non-affecting inconsistencies paid mere lipservice while the few that were genuinely functional got eviscerated (or in the case of Protective Dash, not merely eviscerated, but hung, drawn and quartered) yet still allowing their offensive counterparts (both damage and control effects count as offensive in comparison) to remain as potent as ever.

[Opyt]

I still want objective healing to be more tolerable.  I'm even willing to go back to buying Prime Access packs that Steve allegedly appreciates players buying, provided you actually make it tolerable, opposed to how it is now.  Tolerable would be active healing having some kind of scaling component.  The opportunity cost on Trinity, Protective Dash, and Equinox in particular are intolerable.  Instead of using Blessing which requires both hands to cast, you could be killing enemies, and likely will be.  Instead of Equinox's Mend, you could be scaling up your maim to deal even more damage.  Protective Dash requires risking being locked out of your warframe if ping is too high, on top of, with the exception of Excalibur Umbra, not dealing damage while attempting to heal the objective for a pathetically low, compared to the health & damage the objective is taking.

[TheLexiConArtist]

17 hours ago, Opyt said:

Protective Dash requires risking being locked out of your warframe if ping is too high, on top of, with the exception of Excalibur Umbra, not dealing damage while attempting to heal the objective for a pathetically low, compared to the health & damage the objective is taking.

This is why Prot Dash was perfectly allowable to have the mechanics it had. It would be nice to also have comparable abilities in buffing/healing Frames but generally, those frames are bringing more than the average Kiddo ever could with superior uptime, additional utilities, and actually still being able to deal damage while also covering a supporting role.

Protective Dash wasn't the be-all end-all, it just let you have a choice in the upper echelons of demands by providing a reliable fallback for any frame to use. Ideally, the same sort of counterweight would exist in the other focus school options - an offensive-school Operator helping a defensive/support frame to compensate their inability to scale up damage while the Frame takes care of the protections and healing, as compared to an offensive-oriented Frame having Vazarin Operator to allow the objective not to get surprise or attrition murdered. 

Both the immunity period and healing were valued between either unexpected burst or extended attrition respectively, although the healing could have been brought down a little while remaining percentile, to require more upkeep for recovering larger mishaps.

 

Now, with zero immunity and only a pathetic flat health regen, all it takes is the awkward hitbox on Prot Dash and enemies in groups, or even as low as certain individuals, can easily outdo what little 'protection' that dash supplies against a cumbersome target like, say, the Hijack Fomorian Core.

[Opyt]

On 2020-11-24 at 12:14 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

This is why Prot Dash was perfectly allowable to have the mechanics it had. It would be nice to also have comparable abilities in buffing/healing Frames but generally, those frames are bringing more than the average Kiddo ever could with superior uptime, additional utilities, and actually still being able to deal damage while also covering a supporting role.

Protective Dash wasn't the be-all end-all, it just let you have a choice in the upper echelons of demands by providing a reliable fallback for any frame to use. Ideally, the same sort of counterweight would exist in the other focus school options - an offensive-school Operator helping a defensive/support frame to compensate their inability to scale up damage while the Frame takes care of the protections and healing, as compared to an offensive-oriented Frame having Vazarin Operator to allow the objective not to get surprise or attrition murdered. 

Both the immunity period and healing were valued between either unexpected burst or extended attrition respectively, although the healing could have been brought down a little while remaining percentile, to require more upkeep for recovering larger mishaps.

 

Now, with zero immunity and only a pathetic flat health regen, all it takes is the awkward hitbox on Prot Dash and enemies in groups, or even as low as certain individuals, can easily outdo what little 'protection' that dash supplies against a cumbersome target like, say, the Hijack Fomorian Core.

🙃 We do not disagree.  Unfortunately neither one of us can restore it.  The people DE listen to tend to disagree strongly.  I'm just trying to bargain for something that I believe is much more reasonable than the current system.  I'll accept that it was "OP", because it was, in the right hands, pretty crazy, and made some things way easier than obviously intended (rad procs on Fissures for instance didn't matter, since you could protective dash the objective, same with the nullybubble effect on fissures. 🙃

DE's idea of "fun" has been directly opposed to mine since Old Blood Update, and I've slowly drifted off.  Would request account deletion, but I've also seen how that rabbit hole goes (rumor has it, in the past DE would hand out "deleted accounts" to their inner circles lmao)

[Althaline]

Once again, we have an update that hasn't fixed the fact that healing abilities do basically nothing for objectives (and Necramechs). It feels like DE has decided that our opinions are wrong, in which case I wonder why they set up a megathread to begin with. In the face of an overwhelmingly negative response, they went ahead with the changes and have maintained them for months without a word.

[lowgrav]

well because healing is terrible i looked and i think its easier to just rig the defence target to tank think it requires 2 people minimum to have no down time like limbo has (the time between time expire and recast) 

tested and grineer can do squat vs the shell as it is designed to hard counter both ranged and melee units with no down time on anti range part and a possible no down time on the melee counter if your watching the timer to recast before ability expire

also the anti range part seems to take no effect from nullys so..... perfectly ballanced the endurance runs continue

[Opyt]

On 2020-12-02 at 3:04 AM, Iamabearlulz said:

Once again, we have an update that hasn't fixed the fact that healing abilities do basically nothing for objectives (and Necramechs). It feels like DE has decided that our opinions are wrong, in which case I wonder why they set up a megathread to begin with. In the face of an overwhelmingly negative response, they went ahead with the changes and have maintained them for months without a word.

And, that's why, at this point I'm done with Warframe.  They didn't really want me playing anyways, so I guess we're even.

On 2020-12-03 at 7:43 AM, lowgrav said:

well because healing is terrible i looked and i think its easier to just rig the defence target to tank think it requires 2 people minimum to have no down time like limbo has (the time between time expire and recast) 

tested and grineer can do squat vs the shell as it is designed to hard counter both ranged and melee units with no down time on anti range part and a possible no down time on the melee counter if your watching the timer to recast before ability expire

also the anti range part seems to take no effect from nullys so..... perfectly ballanced the endurance runs continue

The issue is, and likely always be, heavy-handed nerfing, which has always been a feature of DE programming rather than a bug.  The absolute terror they express at the prospect of players not playing their game explicitly how they want was too strong.  Not only that, but as the above quote mentioned: Necramechs are also receiving the garbage healing amounts that stationary objectives get, despite being both player controlled and mobile.

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2020-12-20 at 11:58 PM, Opyt said:

Not only that, but as the above quote mentioned: Necramechs are also receiving the garbage healing amounts that stationary objectives get, despite being both player controlled and mobile.

Necramechs now aren't even getting that underwhelming inanimate-object healing, because supportive mechanics are forbidden, shoo and make more big boom bangs instead.

yep

diversity in playstyle, yo

[Lord-Nelson]

Bump, because healing is still broken. Especially for the violently, totally exaggerated Protective Dash nerf!

[zhunGamer]

Lol I gave up on this entirely, the only use of Protective Dash / Vazarin is Arbitrations.

Otherwise, just forget about it and use Limbo and Wisp

[lowgrav]

today just did a mission on one of the really unpopular nodes and found that vazaran dash still worked pre nurf state there which surprised me

i thought DE changed the heal and removed the 5 seconds invunaribility but it still worked on the defence target at full effect so not completly dead???

but to be fair the node is really unpopular so super rare to get a random squad but shows pre nurf vaz dash is still lurking in the spagetti code

[Opyt]

On 2021-01-06 at 5:56 AM, lowgrav said:

today just did a mission on one of the really unpopular nodes and found that vazaran dash still worked pre nurf state there which surprised me

i thought DE changed the heal and removed the 5 seconds invunaribility but it still worked on the defence target at full effect so not completly dead???

but to be fair the node is really unpopular so super rare to get a random squad but shows pre nurf vaz dash is still lurking in the spagetti code

Bet that was the defense mission on Kuva Fortress.  Doesn't count.

[lowgrav]

On 2021-01-08 at 1:23 AM, Opyt said:

Bet that was the defense mission on Kuva Fortress.  Doesn't count.

well i did say the node was really unpopular

[Opyt]

On 2021-01-08 at 8:11 PM, lowgrav said:

well i did say the node was really unpopular

Yeah.  Keep hoping they'll go back and fix this decision that I regard as boneheaded, but it seems like they're counting on everyone just moving on.

They might not remember.  But I still remember.  And I am still disappointed in DE for making this decision.

Scaling health on objectives ✅
Scaling enemy damage on objectives✅
Scaling enemy health & armor ✅
Scaling healing on players ✅
Scaling healing on mobile objectives (read: rescue target, sortie defense, etc) ✅
Scaling healing on stationary objectives ❌

One of these things is not like the others.

[lowgrav]

well i figured out a way to block all non AOE damage from enimys on a defence objective (hijack target included) so i guess thats how we are supost to now play 

whats the catch you say? well you have to play in a boring almost game encouraging AFK playstyle .....nope its not limbo as this setup in imune to nullyfyers so add that to what they have done with object healing and i guess healing the target after what they have done is do able.......i guess

[selig_fay]

On 3/8/2021 at 12:41 PM, Opyt said:

Scaling healing on stationary objectives 

Easy to solve. All enemies inflict fixed damage to stationary objects, regardless of the level.

[Opyt]

6 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Easy to solve. All enemies inflict fixed damage to stationary objects, regardless of the level.

Or, even easier to solve: have the healing do percentage of maxhp instead of flat amounts that quickly get overshadowed by objective health scaling.  The big reason Protective Dash was a problem was the two-hit combination of 5 seconds of invulnerability WHILE healing for 60% of maxhp.  Instead of removing the invuln, and just scaling down the percentage, they (and I've said this for just under a year at this point) completely neutered objective healing to force people to play the game as dps go brrrt.  Before the healing changes you had 3 options.  With those awful changes they vastly reduced player choice.

 The trouble with flat amounts of healing, is even if the objective takes a fixed amount of damage from each enemy, if the number of enemies is higher than the healing output, you still have the same problem.  Though unlikely to happen, given the cap on enemy numbers.

But I hear they're busy trying to figure out how to turn Railjacks into forma consuming monstrosities which is far more important than fixing a part of the gameplay loop that feels atrocious.

[selig_fay]

11 hours ago, Opyt said:

Or, even easier to solve: have the healing do percentage of maxhp instead of flat amounts that quickly get overshadowed by objective health scaling.  The big reason Protective Dash was a problem was the two-hit combination of 5 seconds of invulnerability WHILE healing for 60% of maxhp.  Instead of removing the invuln, and just scaling down the percentage, they (and I've said this for just under a year at this point) completely neutered objective healing to force people to play the game as dps go brrrt.  Before the healing changes you had 3 options.  With those awful changes they vastly reduced player choice.

 The trouble with flat amounts of healing, is even if the objective takes a fixed amount of damage from each enemy, if the number of enemies is higher than the healing output, you still have the same problem.  Though unlikely to happen, given the cap on enemy numbers.

But I hear they're busy trying to figure out how to turn Railjacks into forma consuming monstrosities which is far more important than fixing a part of the gameplay loop that feels atrocious.

My way is better, since you cannot heal what the oneshotes receive. Plus, flat numbers are always easier to control. I would remove all percentage healing from the game altogether and do damage rework on enemies, because healing doesn't matter when you actually have no ehp to counter the damage.

Flat or % dosent matter if it not working or not give gameplay change anyway

[Opyt]

On 2021-03-11 at 4:19 AM, selig_fay said:

My way is better, since you cannot heal what the oneshotes receive. Plus, flat numbers are always easier to control. I would remove all percentage healing from the game altogether and do damage rework on enemies, because healing doesn't matter when you actually have no ehp to counter the damage.

Flat or % dosent matter if it not working or not give gameplay change anyway

They may be easier to "control", but at 500 total they're not worth the time spent coding the nerf, I maintain that % is just as easy to control, as you know what the value will be when you heal a target with 65000hp at 1%/s (Spoiler: it's 1% of 65k, which is 650) and the only time it gets majorly out of hand is when DE puts more 0s on the end.

 

I seriously doubt anything will be done about it.  I just wanted to pop in to say "Maybe one day you'll pull your head out of your ass long enough to see how atrocious this design decision was.", which at this point I know they won't do.  As they've been ignoring the feedback, which is apparent from a complete dearth of acknowledgement from DE one way or the other (which would have shut me up, and settled the matter once and for all) for just under a year and they clearly have no desire to change it.  All because someone was likely having far too much fun "being off meta", and choosing healing instead of raw DPS.

[Opyt]

This topic still bothers me greatly, stationary objective healing is lackluster, and dominated almost exclusively by Wisp's set & forget (which I recall being a problem for dps abilities, and more specifically why Protea's turret isn't a proper turret but instead is a drone like in Global Agenda and will never get a bloodlust effect that extends duration while it is in use) and I also wish you would rethink this decision to also make everything moving forward immune to Protective Dash.

You can't heal your Necramech with it (Protective Dash) and you can't currently heal your crew members with it.  If this is your decision on healing going forward, that you regret having anything at all that does healing of anything other than players, just please save us time and outright state it.  The people watching know, and I want you to know that I am still disappointed in the direction you went with healing.

[selig_fay]

2 hours ago, Opyt said:

This topic still bothers me greatly, stationary objective healing is lackluster, and dominated almost exclusively by Wisp's set & forget (which I recall being a problem for dps abilities, and more specifically why Protea's turret isn't a proper turret but instead is a drone like in Global Agenda and will never get a bloodlust effect that extends duration while it is in use) and I also wish you would rethink this decision to also make everything moving forward immune to Protective Dash.

You can't heal your Necramech with it (Protective Dash) and you can't currently heal your crew members with it.  If this is your decision on healing going forward, that you regret having anything at all that does healing of anything other than players, just please save us time and outright state it.  The people watching know, and I want you to know that I am still disappointed in the direction you went with healing.

A small amount of healing can be easily solved by using a small amount of enemy damage. You won't worry about being limited to 100hps if you don't take 1k damage from a single enemy. I think it's time to think about it, to start putting the numbers in order. And this also applies to large numbers of DR. 90% DR should be a hard-to-achieve ideal. Then balancing the damage of enemies will make a lot of sense, since tanks and non-tanks will be measured at least in the range of x10, and not as now x1000(you know, a thin frame can have about 1000ehp, while nidus is able to stack 1kk ehp. )