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Railjack Revisited (Part 1): Healing Abilities on Objects Feedback Megathread


SilverBones

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Let me start this off here - Yes, Vazarin was really overpowered for a defense objective mission. Invulnerability AND a 60% heal? Yeah, needed to be nerfed. 

However, the current state is awful. 100 hp/sec is abysmally low, as many others on this thread have pointed out. A lower percentage based number, such as 5-10% would be much less of a slap to the face to us dedicated Vazarin players.

Onto the invulnerability. While incredibly overpowered (I have hundreds of mobile defenses where i just sat there spamming it to make it go by faster), it kind of had a place. Instead of invulnerability, could there possibly be some sort of damage reduction over the duration of the heal, to make it a bit more usable?

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1) It would be helpful to have abilitie's icons next to objective health, to make it easier to tell if its affected by a buff, and which buff it is.

2) I can't test right now if different sources of damage reduction stack, but they certanly should in some way. It'd be fine if its caps at 90% that old Gara provided, i think it benefits frame diversity, if stacking DR from several frames be a viable alternative to outright walling it off (Limbo\Frost).

3) 100 hp per second is understandable, but limiting the duration to 5 seconds regardless of duration seems a bit too arbitrary. Especially since duration is major part of what makes a build in this game in the first place, seems a bit silly to ignore. There isn't much reasons not to spam abilties either way, so that probably won't hurt the balance, but it would be a huge convinience for the frames who rely on high ability duration.

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So that's it? Not even the 50% damage reduction from Vazarin? Just straight up gutted down to a ridiculously low flat number. Sortie objective have 40000-80000 HP, might as well not even bother. Does DE really want Limbo to be the one and only solution here?

15 minutes ago, OwlingFrame said:

) 100 hp per second is understandable, but limiting the duration to 5 seconds regardless of duration seems a bit too arbitrary.

What do you mean, understandable? 100HP/s is so low that it does nothing to help in any of the higher end content where objectives have tens of thousands of hitpoints.

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1 hour ago, ValinorAtani said:

Heck he even called out Ivara Stealth Exp farming an Exploit.

IKR. That’s really an awful opinion from who doesn’t play their own game... cmon at least once every month or whenever working in a nerf/buff. If they play their game every time someone propose a nerf they’ll spent an entire month playing :crylaugh:

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The Gara nerf is just disgusting, especially since her augment was kept as it was and still doesn't heal static defense targets.

Feedback about core issues that was given in advance was ignored as per usual and it raises the old question why even bother posting it and asking for feedback and why even bother giving it if it has 0 impact prior to making it into the game.

Just to repeat a few:

- percentage based healing instead of flat numbers

- Vazarin nerf overzealous

- arbitrary/selective decisions to exclude frames with healing/DR capabilities, not streamlined across the board at all, convoluted, riddled etc.

- no display of these values or mechanics ingame (ability screen, augments etc.), making people have to wiki if and how their stuff works or not on a defense target

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4 minutes ago, Mephane said:

What do you mean, understandable? 

It means i understand why the numbers isn't sky high, not sure what confused you there.

Jokes aside, the defence target is made to be defended. You never need to patch those 50k hp people throw around, because the thing barely takes any damage until whole squad goes AFK for several minutes, and for Oberon or Trinity to patch occasional holes 100 hp per second isn't bad. 

But it feels like people have perception problems. "Its below 90%, that means its useless!" "It doesn't do anything past wave 42069, that means its useless!". Like, fine, just bring Frost if you wanna stay that long, there is never a reason to do so in the entire game, but fine, thats the best thing about this shtick, the actual hardcore defence frames wasn't nerfed. Well, except "poor" Gara, who is now on par with Trinity, but thats fine. Im just happy that every time i have to excavations for any reason and random amount of time my warframe's roster doesn't immidiately shrinks down to 3 frames i've grown to absolutely despise.

My main problem with all of this is the fact that some of those heals and DR's should stack, if not with itself then at least with others. And it should be crystal clear what and when and for how long affects the target. And again, as i mentioned, that duration is more inconvinience then real balancing point.

 

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18 minutes ago, OwlingFrame said:

My main problem with all of this is the fact that some of those heals and DR's should stack, if not with itself then at least with others. And it should be crystal clear what and when and for how long affects the target. And again, as i mentioned, that duration is more inconvinience then real balancing point.

How much will you add up? 500hps? I don't see any ways that it can be more. Again, Wisp, but this is an increase of 20, maybe 50 hps.

18 minutes ago, OwlingFrame said:

Well, except "poor" Gara, who is now on par with Trinity, but thats fine. 

I'm sorry, is that sarcasm? 

I didn't see Trinity putting up walls to protect objects. And I don't see Trinity having CC potential.

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3 hours ago, OwlingFrame said:

It means i understand why the numbers isn't sky high, not sure what confused you there.

Jokes aside, the defence target is made to be defended. You never need to patch those 50k hp people throw around, because the thing barely takes any damage until whole squad goes AFK for several minutes, and for Oberon or Trinity to patch occasional holes 100 hp per second isn't bad. 

But it feels like people have perception problems. "Its below 90%, that means its useless!" "It doesn't do anything past wave 42069, that means its useless!". Like, fine, just bring Frost if you wanna stay that long, there is never a reason to do so in the entire game, but fine, thats the best thing about this shtick, the actual hardcore defence frames wasn't nerfed. Well, except "poor" Gara, who is now on par with Trinity, but thats fine. Im just happy that every time i have to excavations for any reason and random amount of time my warframe's roster doesn't immidiately shrinks down to 3 frames i've grown to absolutely despise.

My main problem with all of this is the fact that some of those heals and DR's should stack, if not with itself then at least with others. And it should be crystal clear what and when and for how long affects the target. And again, as i mentioned, that duration is more inconvinience then real balancing point.

 

Player: I can't survive lvl300+ missions with these punny healing numbers!

Me: Why are you playing endurance runs?

Player: Because I want to see how long I can last.

Me: And what's the point of doing it? Rewards are the same.

Player: To find some challenge.

Me: So you want challenge, but also want to heal 60% of the target's health, per second? Or a full heal with the tap of a button?

Player: Yes.

Me: grunts By this point, won't any enemy wave kill the pod under 3 seconds?

Player: Yes, that's why it needs to be a percentage, and needs to stack with other abilities. 

Me: So won't the defense target be pretty much immortal?

Player: Yes,

Me: But doesn't that trivialize the mission?

Player: Maybe. But I want to face strong enemies.

Me: So why don't you just play survival?

Player: Because it is boring to just kill enemies.

Me: But you still don't want to bother with defense targets, right?

Player: Pretty much.

Me: How long each session lasts?

Player: 6+hours.

Me: I said each session.

Player: And I said 6+ hours, each mission.

Me: Don't you think playing videogames for 6+ hours straight is bad for you health?

Player: No.

Me: (leaves the room)

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9 minutes ago, OwlingFrame said:

It means i understand why the numbers isn't sky high, not sure what confused you there.

Jokes aside, the defence target is made to be defended. You never need to patch those 50k hp people throw around, because the thing barely takes any damage until whole squad goes AFK for several minutes, and for Oberon or Trinity to patch occasional holes 100 hp per second isn't bad. 

But it feels like people have perception problems. "Its below 90%, that means its useless!" "It doesn't do anything past wave 42069, that means its useless!". Like, fine, just bring Frost if you wanna stay that long, there is never a reason to do so in the entire game, but fine, thats the best thing about this shtick, the actual hardcore defence frames wasn't nerfed. Well, except "poor" Gara, who is now on par with Trinity, but thats fine. Im just happy that every time i have to excavations for any reason and random amount of time my warframe's roster doesn't immidiately shrinks down to 3 frames i've grown to absolutely despise.

My main problem with all of this is the fact that some of those heals and DR's should stack, if not with itself then at least with others. And it should be crystal clear what and when and for how long affects the target. And again, as i mentioned, that duration is more inconvinience then real balancing point.

 

So you are content with healers not being able to heal efficiently.

No one wants to cheese a mission, otherwise just use Limbo (which is the current meta now anyways). No one also wants to feel like their frame is useless in its given role (See: Trinity). 100 HP is nothing when enemies burst that down in nano-seconds when a mistake is made. That isn't to say mistakes shouldn't happen and shouldn't be punished, but there needs to be a means of recovery that is an alternative to the "OH S#&$, LIMBO GO CATACLYSM". Look at the first comment I made on this topic, where I break the numbers down into how much healing you are really doing over 5 seconds. It's appalling.

The thing is that you've deluded yourself into thinking you don't play only three frames, because you've effectively argued for neutering Trinity and Oberon, who were rarely present in this game if at all (Due to Killing being the best CC). Mind you, both frames have been butchered so many times over that you hardly see them outside of the occasional masochist playing them. The only plus is Hildryn really, but I have to work out how good that would be in a squad.

No one disagrees that the point should be defended. The problem is that you narrow the scope of what frames can do, and which ones become viable, by reducing the effectiveness in their given role. For a development team all about options and not seeing just one or two frames/archwings, this move goes completely against it.

 

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Just now, HolySeraphin said:

Snip

Bro, this isn't even that (nice strawman though). Even at level 30, you are only healing %1.05 percent of a defense objective's HP. 

Over 5 seconds.

It's nothing compared to the level 110+ bullS#&$ you'll face.

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22 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

Bro, this isn't even that (nice strawman though). Even at level 30, you are only healing %1.05 percent of a defense objective's HP. 

Over 5 seconds.

It's nothing compared to the level 110+ bullS#&$ you'll face.

Defense pods already have innate health regen, and I think is about 100 HP/s.

The problem with percentage is that even if it were 10% per second per health ability, a full squad would give 40% heal per second, which is clearly overpowered at any level. Hildryn's pillage has this problem, where she will only recover 50 shields on lower levels, but 4,000+ at lvl 100. The defense target must be protected, not healed to the point of being immortal. High percentages and exponential scalling are the bane of Warframe's balance, hence why Equinox is so broken and why Trinity's blessing was nerfed time and time again.

Heck, even if it were 5% per second per ability, you have the potential of having 20% heal per second with a full squad, with Warframes that can survive and deal damage like Inaros, Harrow, Nidus, Wisp and Gara.

And if you do bump these numbers to 500 per second, then it trivializes too much low level missions, and we all know what happened to Ember once she trivialized defense and exterminate on the star chart.

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20 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Defense pods already have innate health regen, and I think is about 100 HP/s.

The problem with percentage is that even if it were 10% per second per health ability, a full squad would give 40% heal per second, which is clearly overpowered at any level. Hildryn's pillage has this problem, where she will only recover 50 shields on lower levels, but 4,000+ at lvl 100. The defense target must be protected, not healed to the point of being immortal. High percentages and exponential scalling are the bane of Warframe's balance, hence why Equinox is so broken and why Trinity's blessing was nerfed time and time again.

Heck, even if it was 5% per second per ability, you have the potential of having 20% heal per second with a full squad, with Warframes that can survive and deal damage like Inaros, Harrow, Nidus, Wisp and Gara.

This point of view also has a problem, because in fact, Frost dome also makes defense target immortal. Now we just took away one of the ways to make an object immortal. Moreover, this immortality was temporary and more difficult to achieve than just pressing one button several times.

On the other hand, at some point even vazarin dash has difficulties, since the damage of opponents becomes great, while frost dome does not have them since the hp dome can scale with the enemy's damage and add up an infinite number of times. (which is very similar to healing, only we don't heal the object, but the dome.) 

It looks like a double standard, don't you think? And personally, I don't understand why it is balanced this way. Like a year ago, they said DE wanted to make CC more useful. Is this part of their implementation of this? Because if Frost/Gara/Limbo also get nerf, we will no longer have a choice but to take Vauban  for easy control of the entire map area. Oh, and that also makes the object immortal. Well, there are also nuckers, but I'm not into them.

Similarly, the natural health regeneration of objects is scaled with their hp level, so when you have an object at 60K health, its natural healing will be much greater than 100 hps.

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31 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Defense pods already have innate health regen, and I think is about 100 HP/s.

The problem with percentage is that even if it were 10% per second per health ability, a full squad would give 40% heal per second, which is clearly overpowered at any level. Hildryn's pillage has this problem, where she will only recover 50 shields on lower levels, but 4,000+ at lvl 100. The defense target must be protected, not healed to the point of being immortal. High percentages and exponential scalling are the bane of Warframe's balance, hence why Equinox is so broken and why Trinity's blessing was nerfed time and time again.

Heck, even if it were 5% per second per ability, you have the potential of having 20% heal per second with a full squad, with Warframes that can survive and deal damage like Inaros, Harrow, Nidus, Wisp and Gara.

And if you do bump these numbers to 500 per second, then it trivializes too much low level missions, and we all know what happened to Ember once she trivialized defense and exterminate on the star chart.

That's why you cap how much it can heal per second.

Digital extremes is trying to do that, but have essentially neutered it because they are working with flat numbers rather than percents.

Let's say the max a defense objective can heal is %15 per second max. This means that if you have several frames healing it, you'll hit that cap sooner but won't exceed it.

I think most people would be fine with %5 - %10 max each second. This would help frames retain an identity with burst healing to hit that cap higher, while also making it so that  frames (Wisp, garuda, Oberon) with similar Heal Over Time can work to hit that cap as well.

The problem is that you will never reach that amount in the current iteration. You've essentially made it so that healing becomes irrelevant in the early game and late game, and entirely optional mid game with better and more efficient alternatives.

 

So it's a simple problem that just got solved: Set the cap for how much healing can be received as a percentage. This way plays still feel like they are scaling even into the late game (even if that is a facade for all but Trinity and Vazarin).

Easy as.

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Heal Source

Normal effect

Effect on all types of static Defendable objects (Cryopods, Excavators, etc) 

How did this work before this Update? 

 

Vazarin - Protective Dash

5 seconds invulnerability

60% Heal over 5 seconds

No invulnerability

Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Works at full effect


Animated GIF

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I am unironically a full Vazarin main and everyone else has already said what I've wanted to say. So I'm just going to leave this here because I know for a fact that this so called "feedback megathread" is really a cattle fence to shelve everyones voices somewhere where it can't be heard.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/warframe/images/e/e0/Sm04.ogg/revision/latest?cb=20150115161713

Prove me wrong, DE.

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26 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

That's why you cap how much it can heal per second.

Digital extremes is trying to do that, but have essentially neutered it because they are working with flat numbers rather than percents.

Let's say the max a defense objective can heal is %15 per second max. This means that if you have several frames healing it, you'll hit that cap sooner but won't exceed it.

I think most people would be fine with %5 - %10 max each second. This would help frames retain an identity with burst healing to hit that cap higher, while also making it so that  frames (Wisp, garuda, Oberon) with similar Heal Over Time can work to hit that cap as well.

The problem is that you will never reach that amount in the current iteration. You've essentially made it so that healing becomes irrelevant in the early game and late game, and entirely optional mid game with better and more efficient alternatives.

 

So it's a simple problem that just got solved: Set the cap for how much healing can be received as a percentage. This way plays still feel like they are scaling even into the late game (even if that is a facade for all but Trinity and Vazarin).

Easy as.

Don't you realize these are almost Vazarin dash numbers? It used to give 60% heal over 5 seconds, which translates to 12% HP per second, but with the trouble of using Operator's energy. If we were to give these numbers to healing abilities it would be too much because we can spam these abilities like there's no tomorrow, be it with Trinity, zenurik, arcane energize or energy pads, or just rotating between players.

5% cap would be useless for both low level and high levels, because the defense target doesn't scale, at all, and would make no significant difference on how long it takes for these enemies to destroy it.

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I spent 3.5 months farming Focus and all I get for all those hours of Eidolon hunting is 100 HP / second on a 25000 HP defense target, also how is this going to help me in Excavation? Or anything that is not a Lv10-15 rescue mission?

 

RIP vazarin, it was fun while it lasted. Now I have to use Frost/Gara/Limbo for defense/excavation again.

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35 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Don't you realize these are almost Vazarin dash numbers? It used to give 60% heal over 5 seconds, which translates to 12% HP per second, but with the trouble of using Operator's energy. If we were to give these numbers to healing abilities it would be too much because we can spam these abilities like there's no tomorrow, be it with Trinity, zenurik, arcane energize or energy pads, or just rotating between players.

5% cap would be useless for both low level and high levels, because the defense target doesn't scale, at all, and would make no significant difference on how long it takes for these enemies to destroy it.

Let me put it this way. Right now, bringing anything except CC frames is an instant fail. Don’t believe me? Take Chroma to a lich level 5 defense mission, Solo. Bet you can’t hold them for 2-4 waves because you don’t have CC.

DE just killed frame diversity in defense mission. Which is something that is against their revised intention.  5% cap is still a lot better than 500 total health cap. 

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As others have stated, many existing warframe abilities effectively make the defense objective invulnerable to begin with, I don't see why Vazaruin's invulnerability should be stripped away when Limbo, Frost, Vauban, Volt, etc. have ways to make the defense objective completely invulnerable from either a deployable shield or a massive CC.  Why should warframes that have damage reduction get a fraction of the usual power, when you have warframes that make it have 100% damage reduction.  It doesn't make sense to me, these damage reduction values should be able to be used on the defense objective at their full (or very nearly full) effect.  90% to 50% is a reduction in effective hit points of 80%, going from x10 health to x2 health. 

 

That and not giving healing warframes a use.  Flat numbers don't scale well on objectives that have several thousands more HP than a Tenno does.  These should all have a percentage over time, probably like 1% per second of the target's HP for long-duration heals like Mending Splinters or Ravenous.  But for bursty heals like Blessing it needs to heal a whole lot more a whole lot faster like 5% per second.  Furthermore, the nerf to vazarin completely deletes it as a focus tree.  Vazarin gave players options, gave an entire focus tree a purpose:  To allow you to play Defense Missions without a Defense-Focused warframe.  Now it doesn't have that purpose, and between this nerf and Arcane Repair what does Vazarin have left?

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1 minute ago, ReshyShira said:

As others have stated, many existing warframe abilities effectively make the defense objective invulnerable to begin with, I don't see why Vazaruin's invulnerability should be stripped away when Limbo, Frost, Vauban, Volt, etc. have ways to make the defense objective completely invulnerable from either a deployable shield or a massive CC.  Why should warframes that have damage reduction get a fraction of the usual power, when you have warframes that make it have 100% damage reduction.  It doesn't make sense to me, these damage reduction values should be able to be used on the defense objective at their full (or very nearly full) effect.  90% to 50% is a reduction in effective hit points of 80%, going from x10 health to x2 health. 

 

That and not giving healing warframes a use.  Flat numbers don't scale well on objectives that have several thousands more HP than a Tenno does.  These should all have a percentage over time, probably like 1% per second of the target's HP.  Furthermore, the nerf to vazarin completely deletes it as a focus tree.  Vazarin gave players options, gave an entire focus tree a purpose:  To allow you to play Defense Missions without a Defense-Focused warframe.  Now it doesn't have that purpose, and between this nerf and Arcane Repair what does Vazarin have left?

What I’ve been saying as well. Does DE want Warframe to be a power fantasy or not? With the Vazarin nerf it feels like they don’t want certain content to be trivialized which doesn’t make much sense since this whole game can be trivialized. 

If they don’t want content to be trivialized, then nerfing everything so that we could have actual challenge would be the thing to do. But if they want Warframe to be power fantasy then yeah, content is going to be trivialized and being overpowered is just going to stay. They have to pick which one they want, it cannot be both.

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30 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Let me put it this way. Right now, bringing anything except CC frames is an instant fail. Don’t believe me? Take Chroma to a lich level 5 defense mission, Solo. Bet you can’t hold them for 2-4 waves because you don’t have CC.

DE just killed frame diversity in defense mission. Which is something that is against their revised intention.  5% cap is still a lot better than 500 total health cap. 

The only nerfs regarding warframes were Gara's s splinter storm (her 2) and Harrow's Warding Thurible, while allowing Nenzha and Trinity to give 50% damage reduction, (the others received it as well, but they aren't as reliable). So there's still at least the same level of diversity (unless you're playing for very long periods of time, which is not the intent nor healthy).

And why would I bring a  Warframe with no CC or AoE to a lvl 5 lich defense mission? No Warframe needs to exceed in every mission type. Trinity is great in defection but the worst at killing quickly, therefore bad at survival. You pick certain Warframes for certain tasks, or are you the type to use Ember on sortie spy and Hildryn for infested missions? Also, with how the game is right now isn't it a good thing that CC warframes at least have some purpose on defense/excavation missions? And even that is limited to high level missions. 

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Just now, HolySeraphin said:

The only nerfs regarding warframes were Gara's s splinter storm (her 2) and Harrow's Warding Thurible, while allowing Nenzha and Trinity to give 50% damage reduction, (the others received it as well, but they aren't as reliable). So there's still at least the same level of diversity (unless you're playing for very long periods of time, which is not the intent nor healthy).

And why would I bring a  Warframe with no CC or AoE to a lvl 5 lich defense mission? No Warframe needs to exceed in every mission type. Trinity is tgreat in defection but the worst at killing quickly, therefore bad at survival. You pick certain Warframes for certain tasks, or are you the type to use Ember on sortie spy and Hildryn for infested missions? Also, with how the game is right now isn't it a good thing that CC warframes at least have some purpose on defense/excavation missions? And even that is limited to high level missions. 

50% damage reduction is a fraction of the usual benefits.  It's nothing compared to the complete invulnerability some frames can grant the defense objective.

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I don't know if it has been stated in this tread before but I'm too lazy to read 5 pages of post at 5 am so here goes:

Did you guys break defence points base regen at this point cause when you bring say a mesa with no heals at all the defence point doesn't regen any health or even shields for that matter where they used to have some base regen. Imho if this is not a bug and just the state of things now that's just not acceptable cause it means now you always need to bring a healer frame.

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1 hour ago, HolySeraphin said:

Don't you realize these are almost Vazarin dash numbers? It used to give 60% heal over 5 seconds, which translates to 12% HP per second, but with the trouble of using Operator's energy. If we were to give these numbers to healing abilities it would be too much because we can spam these abilities like there's no tomorrow, be it with Trinity, zenurik, arcane energize or energy pads, or just rotating between players.

5% cap would be useless for both low level and high levels, because the defense target doesn't scale, at all, and would make no significant difference on how long it takes for these enemies to destroy it.

Cap meaning no matter who is doing it, that is all it will receive at any given point.

You can dash all you want, your trinity can spam her 4, but that is time spent dashing and not killing, in addition to simply only refreshing your portion of that percentage. What I am saying is that the heals should be capped at any given moment so that you simply can't just 0-100 percent heal. Remember that Dash has no invuln time on objectives now, so it gets only the health you give it (which is negligible at high levels).

Example, I use trinity to heal the objective for %5 of it's HP and a Wisp and Oberon are both healing for %5. Instead of simply not stacking, these stack to give %15 Hp back until one of the three (or more) stop healing the objective. Now let's say Wisp, Oberon, Trinity, and Gara are all healing for %5 each, instead of going to %20, it caps out at %15. Why do I suggest this? To punish over-healing instead of fighting.

 

%5 is also significantly better than what we have currently, and was merely a suggestion on the lower end that could be tweaked up if necessary. Personally, I think the objective should Cap out on receiving HP somewhere in that %10±5 range.  Think about %10 for a moment, compared to capping the max health a pod can get to 500/5seconds. %10 is a lot more than that measly 500 over 5 seconds, which may as well not be there.

%5, admittedly, would be a nerf to healing in lower level content defense missions. I posted the numbers in a previous comment about the amount of HP defense objectives have at each Tier, and 500 over 5 seconds equates to something like %17 at level 12. However, %5 sees greater benefit to the playerbase at Tier 2 and Tier 3, where that flat number goes down in value exponentially.

 

 

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