Conclave with only variants?

[Tyreaus]

Basically, a proposal in the form of a question: would Conclave work better, especially long-term, if it focused on variant modes (like Opticor-only, Paris-only, a PvP-version of Dog Days, and future ones)?

Not to knock the work that's gone into balancing existing Conclave, because there's a lot of work done that has accomplished a lot of good, but it still needs a lot of attention, not just from previous bleed-overs from PvE changes (hi Telos Boltace), but for future bleed-overs and additions. There are a lot of elements to tie together to figure out how to balance things. Even outside of balancing, there's a horrendous barrier to entry. AFAIK, new players that don't set up their arsenal first (mind that they're not given any indication of needing to do so) are still often stuck with just a melee weapon. Even in the best case scenario where they learn that bit, here's no SBMM to ease those new players in. And the acquisition of any weapon for Conclave can be anywhere from vaguely inconvenient (Mk-1 Braton) to downright impossible (OG Snipetron) for any moderately new players.

Now, it's far from impossible to fix a lot of those things—suggestions in this very forum say as much—but it requires a large and continuous time investment to keep things up to date. That is a time investment DE does not seem willing to undertake. As mentioned: Telos Boltace is still a thing. This is why I've started to feel it would be better if Conclave were to focus down on those PvP variant modes. More specifically, because:

1. They can be self-isolated, as Dog Days proved. This means PvE changes are much less likely to bleed through. Not impossible, perhaps, but taking Dog Days for example: shield gating doesn't matter if players aren't equipped with shields. There's almost always a variant where a certain change doesn't matter. And in cases where they do matter, they're a touch easier to identify and fix. _{(Not that Telos Boltace is that hard to spot, though...)}

2. Minimal upkeep means DE is freed up to add on as they like. There isn't anywhere near as much pressure to fix something or fuss out a dozen to a hundred different interactions, so they're able to hop onto the PvP side and plop a new idea down whenever they like.

3. Simplification means players can plop into PvP whenever they like. There isn't a required investment in the best loadouts or anything of that sort. It comes down to "press a button, maybe two, and go". A negligible barrier to entry is pretty substantial, especially when the game is PvE-focused.

4. Variants seem to be well-liked. I recall Dog Days being coupled with "why isn't this a PvP mode too?" Something that still gets asked. And variants have been requested as a fallback for when things go south. There's something to be said about knowing you're on equal footing with everyone else and the only difference is skill.

5. PvP variants can tie into PvE events, making the work benefit both sides. The responses around Dog Days, and the design of that event, showed that pretty well.

Of course, it is still a question always up for debate, but I do think Conclave would work better with variants. DE doesn't seem to have the time or willpower to get extant Conclave up to snuff. And, honestly, I think simpler, more varied Conclave modes have a wider appeal.

[taiiat]

focusing exclusively on? unnecessary.
but we have 'Playlist' sorts of buttons on the Conclave Terminal UI. why isn't one of those Variants(where you randomly play all Variants, to keep Matchmaking simpler), is pretty much my question.

Edited April 30, 2020 by taiiat

[Tyreaus]

7 hours ago, taiiat said:

focusing exclusively on? unnecessary.

I don't really think so.

The current design of Conclave isn't sustainable with the attention DE doesn't give it. The myriad of interactions between weapons and Warframes far outpaces the mixes that PvP-dedicated games have, and in Warframe's case, that's on top of the PvE aspect they have to work on. That's a nightmare to consider even on a good day. Putting it simply: they're not going to look at it as much as it needs. I think the running "joke" on the Conclave Discord speaks for that well enough.

That might not be much of a problem, except for reputation. It doesn't exactly have a great one, so far as I can see. Keeping extant Conclave keeps that reputation, at least in part, along with all the requests to fix and improve it that - as stated - aren't really sustainable.

Of course, I do think the two should operate in tandem to see how things go - at first. No point dumping all your eggs in an untested basket. But if it does take off, I feel the existing Conclave would end up dragging it down more than anything beneficial.

[taiiat]

35 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

That might not be much of a problem, except for reputation. It doesn't exactly have a great one, so far as I can see.

that's literally never going to change. as long as it isn't a winning Simulator, the Playerbase will hate it.
that's just how it's going to be, because that's the 99% of Players that have already been attracted.

Variants is only going to convince maybe say, 10% of the Playerbase to try Conclave as it is.

 

but that doesn't mean that Conclave as it exists shouldn't be allowed to.

[Tyreaus]

45 minutes ago, taiiat said:

that's literally never going to change. as long as it isn't a winning Simulator, the Playerbase will hate it.
that's just how it's going to be, because that's the 99% of Players that have already been attracted.

Variants is only going to convince maybe say, 10% of the Playerbase to try Conclave as it is.

While I'd love to know where you got your crystal ball from—or is it a mind-reading device, I'm not sure—I'd rather let the actual results talk for themselves, and if it were to find some unprecedented success, would maintain the existing Conclave is better let go.

Unless you like watching it fall into further disrepair. Frankly, I find it kind of depressing. Or would you rather them continue to work on the existing Conclave as well?

[taiiat]

2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

While I'd love to know where you got your crystal ball from—or is it a mind-reading device, I'm not sure—I'd rather let the actual results talk for themselves

Or would you rather them continue to work on the existing Conclave as well?

the rabble just aren't going to like it.
comeon, these are the same Players that make metacomplaint Threads when someone else gets more Kills than they do in a Mission. this is the Playerbase that sees Parkour as nothing more than spamming Bullet Jump.
this is the Playerbase that 'rates' Warframes based on how little effort it takes to play the game with them, lower == better.
the Playerbase by large is just not skilled enough, and refuses to change that. 

why not? the majority of Equipment has always been pretty acceptably balanced in Conclave v2. it's mostly outliers. or honestly, most Abilities. the unspoken rules of avoiding Ability usage ring well with the Players that do like Conclave, but not so much for the rest.

[Tyreaus]

2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

why not?

Because, as I explained in the OP, it's a constant time investment that DE is either unwilling or unable to input. Many things are balanced, yes. But there are a number of issues, many of which have come from PvE bleedover, that remain unaddressed. People called for changes to melee blocking. Conclave got shield gating instead. And that's basic upkeep. That isn't counting things like improving new player loadouts so the brand new players aren't stuck in Conclave with a skana, server browsers, SBMM, or any of the hundreds of improvements, large or small, suggested throughout this forum.

Now, being frank: if they can't even put a decent amount of effort toward that, why would I want what little PvP effort they're willing to afford to go away from new variant ideas - the sorts of things that could be knocked down in a casual day yet viewed as improvement or expansions that might generate a bit of a more positive outlook - and into a losing war? I don't want PvP to die outright. I'd like to see it flourish in some form. But the beast they have right now is too big for them to heal with how they're handling their time.

It's basically a sunk cost fallacy.

[taiiat]

1 minute ago, Tyreaus said:

Because, as I explained in the OP, it's a constant time investment that DE is either unwilling or unable to input.

and Variants would require 365 levels of work because.....?

Variants thusfar are pretty simple, which is also kind've the point of them, Et Cetera Et Cetera.
unless you're thinking of Variants to all have custom Gamemodes and custom Weapons, a significant amount of the work to create each Variant is covered by Conclave as it is existing itself in the first place.

[Tyreaus]

10 minutes ago, taiiat said:

and Variants would require 365 levels of work because.....?

They wouldn't, and that's the point. The effort DE's willing to put toward PvP is minuscule. _{I mean for God's sake they still have Telos Boltace in there and that's a single object attribute to set to "false".} But variants are also tiny in the work required, especially with upkeep. But tiny isn't zero and if all the attention gets funnelled to the time void of existing Conclave, nothing really ends up happening.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Tyreaus

[taiiat]

15 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

But tiny isn't zero and if all the attention gets funnelled to the time void of existing Conclave, nothing really ends up happening.

 

25 minutes ago, taiiat said:

a significant amount of the work to create each Variant is covered by Conclave as it is existing itself in the first place.

 

[Tyreaus]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

-snip-

As I said, tiny is not zero. And you even say a significant amount of work is covered by Conclave. Significant isn't 100%. I'm not sure what that's supposed to demonstrate otherwise.

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I'm not sure what that's supposed to demonstrate otherwise.

that there is so much overlap that canning it isn't really going to... gain much, if anything.

[Tyreaus]

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

that there is so much overlap that canning it isn't really going to... gain much, if anything.

Well it isn't like our inability to play it equates to their inability to re-use its code. They probably still have the code for Raids sitting on some hard disk somewhere.

[Sevek7]

10 hours ago, taiiat said:

the rabble just aren't going to like it.
comeon, these are the same Players that make metacomplaint Threads when someone else gets more Kills than they do in a Mission. this is the Playerbase that sees Parkour as nothing more than spamming Bullet Jump.
this is the Playerbase that 'rates' Warframes based on how little effort it takes to play the game with them, lower == better.
the Playerbase by large is just not skilled enough, and refuses to change that. 

why not? the majority of Equipment has always been pretty acceptably balanced in Conclave v2. it's mostly outliers. or honestly, most Abilities. the unspoken rules of avoiding Ability usage ring well with the Players that do like Conclave, but not so much for the rest.

I think you're right about the playerbase here, but I also think there is room for change. 

Currently, in PvE, "winning" in warframe has no connection to successfully completing a mission. Successful mission completion is guaranteed. Therefore "winning" has been redefined to "beating the RNG." Winning now means getting the rare from the relic, the arcane you wanted, etc... The main result of this is that winning is not at all related to skill or performance. I think this naturally leads to the "path of least resistance" kind of mentality you mention with the "best" frames being the ones that can achieve successful mission completion in the shortest amount of time while watching a movie. 

I think the game could flip this back the other way and still be successful. If the missions were difficult and successful completion was not guaranteed, but the success did guarantee the reward you wanted, then I think the same players would still like the game. I don't think it would work with both difficulty and low % chance of rewards (at least not with the community mentality that the current system has created / attracted). So I think conclave could work in this second style, since it's competitive with other players it must have difficulty, but then the rewards need to be guaranteed when you do well. Currently, the conclave rewards are bad rewards and have RNG layered on top. So we shouldn't be surprised that the current player population tends not to play it. 

I've heard a lot of PvE players say that they don't bother trying conclave because they "don't have the mods and therefore cannot compete with those who do." Of course, all the conclave mods are utility, but they don't know that. As @Tyreaus mentioned, variants are nice because everyone has the same weapons and mods. Therefore PvE players will know immediately that they are on even ground. I like the idea of having variants as a recurring event. Perhaps one week every month on a rotating basis (the active time and downtime are obviously changeable.) For example, the last week of every month has a variant mode separate from the four usual modes. This month could have opticor variant, next month could have paris, etc... This is a way for PvE players to gain conclave standing in what they will agree is a fair environment. It will likely cause some to consider playing conclave in the weeks where the variant is not active, and they might then notice that the mods don't really make much of a difference. But for this to work, we must have better rewards, and not RNG layered on top of them. I would suggest things like forma / catalyst blueprints available for conclave standing at Teshin. Other rewards can be considered, like earning void traces during a conclave match and also opening relics in conclave. Some of these things will take more consideration to prevent exploits/abuse of course, but nevertheless it should at least be possible! 

Of course, none of these things will happen, but it's fun to think about 🙂 

Best we can hope is telos boltace removed or fixed within 6 months. 

 

[taiiat]

7 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

I think the game could flip this back the other way and still be successful. If the missions were difficult and successful completion was not guaranteed, but the success did guarantee the reward you wanted, then I think the same players would still like the game.

the Playerbase might accept it and enjoy it, yes. i know i certainly would.
and they could still make stuff have some level of artificial scarcity to stretch things, getting what you want that you only ever need one of could just be like, 10% and that would already be such a massive increase for many of the things Players seek after as it is.

or mega bonus points if it's not just completing the Mission, but completing the Mission and achieving some optional, above and beyond Objectives.
basically have Rewards related to 'Achievements' moreso than just existing in Missions for hours until a Timer graces you with the permission to leave. mmh.

but anyways.

 

7 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Of course, all the conclave mods are utility, but they don't know that.

to be fair, Weapon specific Mods are flat upgrades to those Weapons.

7 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

But for this to work, we must have better rewards, and not RNG layered on top of them.

if the end of Mission Rewards that weren't Conclave Mods & such were relevant and had Chances that made a difference to the Players' progression, random Rewards could still be fine.
ain't nobody want extra Alloy Plate or extra Circuits, after all. but they do want that Forma or maybe some Rare Resources, or all sorts of other stuff Players are normally grinding in PvE. gimme that Riven Fuel and Void Traces and yadda yadda.

but all in all ain't nobody kidding anyone, 99% of the progression/grinding in the game is for PvE. Conclave has to help progression there so that the Playerbase at large doesn't feel like playing it is throwing their time away for nothing, even if it's fun.

[Sevek7]

46 minutes ago, taiiat said:

to be fair, Weapon specific Mods are flat upgrades to those Weapons.

You're right, I was generalizing 🙂 The main point I was trying to convey is that a player without mods but with skill would beat a player with mods but without skill.

48 minutes ago, taiiat said:

but all in all ain't nobody kidding anyone, 99% of the progression/grinding in the game is for PvE. Conclave has to help progression there so that the Playerbase at large doesn't feel like playing it is throwing their time away for nothing, even if it's fun.

Yup! I love conclave but I don't even look at the rewards screen I just assume it's some negligible amount of useless junk.