Why we cant have endgame content

[Corvid]

30 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I have seen the same posted in every online forum for Live games...this is just an intractable people problem IME.

The reality I see is simply that over time, some of the more vocal players gain experience and then use that as a stick with which to beat others into submission...a vocal minority that is found on all Live game forums.

TBH, IME, WF has more experienced players willing to help than most other games I have played - but the forums are not the place for that, either, IMO, they are in the game, playing, it's the disgruntled, etc., trying to bring down the mood on the forums.

At the same time, people are just human and right now, most humans are ... not at thier finest when it comes to patience, etc., for 'world-wide' reasons.

Don't let the cranky ones rule the roost, don't let them spoil the game for you because they outgrew it, is, I guess, what I mean to convey...

Not to be that guy, but maybe tone down the ellipses? Your posts kinda read like you're spacing out.

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Yes, because you say so. 

Ervin, are you the game developer? I simply prove my points. But if you know more than the developer, you are welcome to share your infinite wisdom. 

ROFLMMAO. 

Because the game have traits and attributes of these genres. 

Because chess is a game that has a clean example of what 'end game' is. See? 

No? Endgame is the 'final stage'. That is the whole discussion. War Frame doesn't have a 'final stage'. See? 

The definition says 'final stage'. A check mate is a conclusion done by team white or team black. 

You have 'miniatures in chess'. You have mates on three moves and mates that are forced up to 30 moves. The length of the process could be different. 

Or conclude in few. 

Hint: Ervin, don't try to troll, please. 

It's because you really have no clue. You've proven it time and time again.

You are also a bit ass backwards, since you say WF has traits from those genres, but at the same time you refuse to go beyond one definition of "endgame". You see, you cant say WF has traits from those genres when it is those genres that have traits from others. Those genres didnt invent those things, specifically not the very odd things you somehow connected to RTS games, like what was it... gun emplacements? All the things you drew connections to as MOBA traits were really just arpg/rpg traits that MOBAs have taken stuff from and dumbed down since the creation of the genre with DotA. And you also called Overwatch a MOBA, a game that shares nothing with the genre, it has none of the elements that actually sets a MOBA apart from the rest. Overwatch may share things with MOBA games, but it isnt the defining MOBA aspects that they share, so saying it is MOBA-like is like calling a cat a dog since they both have fur.

You are ok with throwing around those silly comparison but you arent ok with using up to date definitions of endgame that have been accepted and used in GAAS games since the mid 90's. 

You are so off that it is sad.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

38 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I have seen the same posted in every online forum for Live games...this is just an intractable people problem IME.

The reality I see is simply that over time, some of the more vocal players gain experience and then use that as a stick with which to beat others into submission...a vocal minority that is found on all Live game forums.

TBH, IME, WF has more experienced players willing to help than most other games I have played - but the forums are not the place for that, either, IMO, they are in the game, playing, it's the disgruntled, etc., trying to bring down the mood on the forums.

At the same time, people are just human and right now, most humans are ... not at thier finest when it comes to patience, etc., for 'world-wide' reasons.

Don't let the cranky ones rule the roost, don't let them spoil the game for you because they outgrew it, is, I guess, what I mean to convey...

I agree. Everyone knows the game is hard, so they try to give new people a decent leg to stand on. 

On PS4, there are people constantly asking if anyone needs help.

When I started I was probably given 500p worth of stuff over a few months.

[Felsagger]

27 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Do you realize that those games that have end game have to make a new end game for every new update? Making everything prior to the new release just a passage to reach that new endgame. And their developpement process is only based on new expensions with new content exclusively made for the life time of that expansion. 

Warframe is not that kind of game simply because DE is capitalizing on the full content of the game. Every new update will never make the existing content obsolete or at least not so fast. 

Who cares about the definition of end game when the developers simply have no interest at making one. Everything DE is creating must have an interest everywhere in the game as long as possible. All those tools we have to feed the power creep are just there for this reason. 

When it comes to warframe, you should debate on difficulty but not end game. 

Pretty much. 

I enjoy the game for what it is. When I see that some parts are missing. I get those on other games. One product can't have everything. War Frame can't have everything or pretend to cover every angle. 

But for all this time I understood that the best part is to not expect anything from DE. You evade angst, disappointment and frustrations. Never go for the meta, the best build or the most capable weapon. Let those things happens naturally. Don't waste money on 'op' god roll rivens or get the burden of repeating what youtubers did in their builds. 

I always love the Pokemon game side of War Frame. At least I have some fun talking about it. ^^

[Zimzala]

18 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Not to be that guy, but maybe tone down the ellipses? Your posts kinda read like you're spacing out.

But I am spacing out, I am a longtime stoner and my mind wanders from thing to thing as I type.

Not trying to win any literary awards, I am sure my wife (who reviews books) would cringe at my punctuation and grammar.

So the ... is actually me spacing out ... probabaly ... maybe ...

[Teridax68]

13 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Do you realize that those games that have end game have to make a new end game for every new update? 

Yes? And yet, they still manage to do it.

13 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Warframe is not that kind of game simply because DE is capitalizing on the full content of the game. Every new update will never make the existing content obsolete or at least not so fast. 

This could not be further from the truth. Warframe is a game now infamous for its content islands that make little to no use of previous content, and render much of it obsolete. I would in fact like the opposite to happen, though that's a separate matter from the question of endgame.

13 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Who cares about the definition of end game when the developers simply have no interest at making one. Everything DE is creating must have an interest everywhere in the game as long as possible. All those tools we have to feed the power creep are just there for this reason. 

This is also completely wrong, as DE explicitly announced their desire to create an endgame that worked. This is expressly why they created ESO and Arbitrations, and they even admitted after that that they'd failed. DE clearly wants to give us an endgame, they just haven't been going about it the right way so far.

54 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

GAAS game models can't achieve a maximum top because that is not how the market work for such games. 

Whoosh.

54 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Isn't all opinions subjective? 

You should perhaps give that sentence another read.

54 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Well, you insulted me for about five times in just one post, lmao. Sorry I forgot to bring you the Tea. 

Where exactly did I insult you? Sweetie, the only tea here is that you've tried far too hard to draw attention to yourself on this thread, and have earned yourself justified ridicule. I'm not even the only one to be pointing this out, and calling everyone you dislike a hater isn't exactly going to improve the situation.

54 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Well, I don't have to get 'serious' about the discussion of a game.

This, coming from the person writing page upon page of responses in this discussion, to the point where approximately half the volume of each page has been taken up by your comments since you arrived. Right.

54 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

The discussion is happening. People are conversing peacefully. War Frame can't have 'endgame' because the game is not conceived with that in mind. It's an attribute that the 'square dancers' wants to define. 

"Square dancers"... ? Just... what?

Also no, this discussion isn't happening peacefully, because you have been talking over everyone else here by posting rant after incoherent rant, burying every post you disagree with (which seems to be many) under a heap of nonsense. It is difficult to have any sort of conversation in this environment because your constant butting in and excessive amount of writing are derailing this thread to center it around yourself, all while drowning out people who have something genuinely interesting to say. This discussion isn't about you, and people are allowed to have differing opinions, particularly when your own seem completely untrammelled by facts or reality.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It's because you really have no clue. You've proven it time and time again.

You are also a bit ass backwards, since you say WF has traits from those genres, but at the same time you refuse to go beyond one definition of "endgame". You see, you cant say WF has traits from those genres when it is those genres that have traits from others. Those genres didnt invent those things, specifically not the very odd things you somehow connected to RTS games, like what was it... gun emplacements? All the things you drew connections to as MOBA traits were really just arpg/rpg traits that MOBAs have taken stuff from and dumbed down since the creation of the genre with DotA. And you also called Overwatch a MOBA, a game that shares nothing with the genre, it has none of the elements that actually sets a MOBA apart from the rest. Overwatch may share things with MOBA games, but it isnt the defining MOBA aspects that they share, so saying it is MOBA-like is like calling a cat a dog since they both have fur.

You are ok with throwing around those silly comparison but you arent ok with using up to date definitions of endgame that have been accepted and used in GAAS games since the mid 90's. 

You are so off that it is sad.

1/3 WF players are playing more or less Solo. 

[Felsagger]

32 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It's because you really have no clue. You've proven it time and time again.

"My name is Ervin and I condemn you felsager to the corner of the clueless player."

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I am also a bit ass backwards

So Ervin finally admits it. Thank you. You saved me few posts. 

lmao. 

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, since you say WF has traits from those genres, but at the same time you refuse to go beyond one definition of "endgame".

Because there is none for this game. DE tried seven years. 

Are you going to try? lol. 

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You see, you cant say WF has traits from those genres when it is those genres that have traits from others.

People has different perceptions, Ervin, sorry I think that is a novelty for you but is true. Not everybody thinks the same. 

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Those genres didnt invent those things, specifically not the very odd things you somehow connected to RTS games, like what was it... gun emplacements?

Of course, these games emerged from other sources. It's not wrong to get attributes of other games in your game. 

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All the things you drew connections to as MOBA traits were really just arpg/rpg traits that MOBAs have taken stuff from and dumbed down since the creation of the genre with DotA.

A Massive Online Battle Arena happens in War Frame. How? The first warframe takes the damage if three of them are behind but all the War Frame Weapons adds in the damage going through other War Frames. Weapon projectile trajectory is not interrupted except Bramma and other Rocket based weapons. This happens in OverWatch. OverWatch is a Moba. 

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And you also called Overwatch a MOBA, a game that shares nothing with the genre

Well, wait what? 

Oh But I'm not wrong perceiving it as a Moba. 

https://www.gamecrate.com/overwatch-moba-masses/13593

I said that War Frame has attributes of a Moba game. Obviously LoL, DOTA 2 and Heroes of The Storm are a strict MOBA game. Believe me I know what those are. 

Quote

 

You are ok with throwing around those silly comparison but you arent ok with using up to date definitions of endgame that have been accepted and used in GAAS games since the mid 90's. 

Comparisons based on perception. Are they silly, well that's subjectivity. Let me see if we reasons something here. LOL, Heroes of the Storm and DOTA 2 are VERSUS games, see, PVP. Is War Frame a strict PvP game. NO. No you can't apply the idea of 'endgame' on this game to War Frame. 

War Frame is a different GAAS game. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_as_a_service

 

Quote

I am so off that it is sad. I come here to snide felsager, because I don't like him. 

I get ya. lol. 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Felsagger

[Felsagger]

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Yes? And yet, they still manage to do it.

They can't. Never happened. Only in your dreams. 

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

 

This is also completely wrong, as DE explicitly announced their desire to create an endgame that worked. This is expressly why they created ESO and Arbitrations, and they even admitted after that that they'd failed. DE clearly wants to give us an endgame, they just haven't been going about it the right way so far.

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Whoosh.

GAAS games always creates new content that renders the old one obsolete. That is the market. That is how it operates. 

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

 

Where exactly did I insult you? Sweetie, the only tea here is that you've tried far too hard to draw attention to yourself on this thread, and have earned yourself justified ridicule. I'm not even the only one to be pointing this out, and calling everyone you dislike a hater isn't exactly going to improve the situation.

You can't even see your own insults. I'm not calling anyone a hater. I see you going vitriolic in this sentence alone with an accusatory tone calling someone ridicule. 

You need to take a break and drink some coffee. You are taking this way up to your heart. 

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

 

"Square dancers"... ? Just... what?

People who power creep. 

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Also no, this discussion isn't happening peacefully,

It is. You are the one who comes with more instigation, accusations and even snide for no reason. 

I'll introduce you to a concept you are not aware off. Respect. I don't humiliate you on your posting. But you have a loud tone that insults other players. I don't need to carry griefs, or lash out hate. You do. 

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

because you have been talking over everyone else here by posting rant after incoherent rant,

Again, that is your opinion. You are free to think whatever you want. People here agree with me and many other people have a good time conversing with me. You are the one who has a fit over this. 

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

burying every post you disagree with (which seems to be many) under a heap of nonsense.

I'm simply conversing. If you find that a problem, then walk away of the conversation. I'm not forcing you to stay. 

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It is difficult to have any sort of conversation in this environment because your constant butting in and excessive amount of writing are derailing this thread to center it around yourself

Yes, you are free to converse. How I post, is my concern, not yours. 

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

, all while drowning out people who have something genuinely interesting to say. This discussion isn't about you, and people are allowed to have differing opinions, particularly when your own seem completely untrammelled by facts or reality.

You are still here arguing with angst and anxiety. Of course the discussion is not about me. You got that one right. You are the one making it be about me with your attacks that harps into instigation for an argument. 

 The discussion here, and you said it, is about the game that if such game can or can't have end game. Pretty simple. 

[HexOmega111x]

il y a 45 minutes, Teridax68 a dit :

Yes? And yet, they still manage to do it.

You should have quoted the rest too. Where I say that it involve a complete development process based on end game only. Those developers are not bringing anything else than that. This is a choice the developers make at the very beginning of the development stage. DE obviously did not make that choice. 

il y a 45 minutes, Teridax68 a dit :

This could not be further from the truth. Warframe is a game now infamous for its content islands that make little to no use of previous content, and render much of it obsolete.

Every single warframe, weapon or island content still have an utility in the game no matter what new content they are adding. Island content does not mean useless content. Your argument might be on point for some other discussion but not here. 

il y a 45 minutes, Teridax68 a dit :

This is also completely wrong, as DE explicitly announced their desire to create an endgame that worked. This is expressly why they created ESO and Arbitrations, and they even admitted after that that they'd failed. DE clearly wants to give us an endgame, they just haven't been going about it the right way so far.

Nope, they wanted to give content with a difficulty purpose to appease some players who were tired of having to start a mission and wait 1 hour to have some kind of challenge. It was at the time when Scott tried to explain why they are struggling to make challenging content. They want to give us some challenge, it has nothing to do with end game. They want to found a way to introduce challenging content that will remain challenging no matter what content they could add to the game without having to imagine another end game every 6 months. 

And indeed, they haven't found the right way to do it. The damage rework, the nerfs we are seeing since few months might be the starting point of making more difficult content possible. Possible and enjoyable of course. 

Edited May 6, 2020 by HexOmega111x

[Zimzala]

4 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

You should have quoted the rest too. Where I say that it involve a complete development process based on end game only. Those developers are not bringing anything else than that. This is a choice the developers make at the very beginning of the development stage. DE obviously did not make that choice. 

Every single warframe, weapon or island content still have an utility in the game no matter what new content they are adding. Island content does not mean useless content. Your argument might be on point for some other discussion but not here. 

Nope, they wanted to give content with a difficulty purpose to appease some players who were tired of having to start a mission and wait 1 hour to have some kind of challenge. It was at the time when Scott tried to explain why they are struggling to make challenging content. They want to give us some challenge, it has nothing to do with end game. They want to found a way to introduce challenging content that will remain challenging no matter what content they could add to the game without having to imagine another end game every 6 months. 

And indeed, they haven't found the right way to do it. The damage rework, the nerfs we are seeing since few months might be the starting point of making more difficult content possible. Possible and enjoyable of course. 

This is the magic hamster wheel that, IMO, if a company can actually pull off, they will dominate the marketplace.

It's an awesome thing to aspire to create, I guess, but much like creating real AI, it's still just a dream from my POV.

Some Russian military group just came up with a system that uses bits of AI to track what an individual does in the virtual world and then tailors the responces and challenges given to the player based on that in an effort to help them improve. Until game designers have access to that level of AI type technology, we will be lucky to given puzzles that take more than a few gaming sessions to crack, IME.

The endless challenging hamster wheel, IME, cannot be codified into a single game, but I would be happy to proven wrong.

Where people might talk about aspirational content, this is pretty aspirational on the part of any game company to attempt, IMO.

[Teridax68]

13 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

They can't. Never happened. Only in your dreams. 

GAAS games always creates new content that renders the old one obsolete. That is the market. That is how it operates. 

Whoosh.

13 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

You can't even see your own insults. I'm not calling anyone a hater. I see you going vitriolic in this sentence alone with an accusatory tone calling someone ridicule. 

You need to take a break and drink some coffee. You are taking this way up to your heart. 

This is coming across increasingly as projection, given that you are visibly taking my criticism of your posts personally. I'm not saying you are a ridiculous person, I am saying the manner in which you are behaving in this thread is ridiculous. The response to this shouldn't be to throw yet another hissy fit, but to consider whether you are truly doing the right thing here.

13 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

People who power creep. 

That does not make any more sense than previously, but sure.

13 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

It is. You are the one who comes with more instigation, accusations and even snide for no reason. 

I'll introduce you to a concept you are not aware off. Respect. I don't humiliate you on your posting. But you have a loud tone that insults other players. I don't need to carry griefs, or lash out hate. You do. 

That's all very nice, except it is you who are interjecting constantly, talking down to everyone you disagree with, and going straight to character assassination in what ought to be a civil discussion. You are in no position to lecture anyone else on respect, and you ought to take your own advice by respecting the agency of other players and letting them speak without trying to control what they get to say.

13 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Again, that is your opinion. You are free to think whatever you want. People here agree with me and many other people have a good time conversing with me. You are the one who has a fit over this. 

I'm simply conversing. If you find that a problem, then walk away of the conversation. I'm not forcing you to stay. 

Yes, you are free to converse. How I post, is my concern, not yours.

How you post is of my concern when it bogs down discussion. People having opinions that you agree with does not equate to them "having a good time conversing" with you, and conversation is a two-way process, something you clearly don't seem to understand when you feel the need to respond to virtually every post on this thread and have the last word in every conversation happening at the same time, even those that didn't include you to begin with.

13 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

You are still here arguing with angst and anxiety. Of course the discussion is not about me. You got that one right. You are the one making it be about me with your attacks that harps into instigation for an argument. 

 The discussion here, and you said it, is about the game that if such game can or can't have end game. Pretty simple. 

Then leave the discussion at that, and stop making it about yourself, as you have now been doing for the last few replies. Again, what do you have left to add to this conversation? You've made it clear that you don't believe that endgame can exist, and have devoted the last few pages to bashing everyone over the head with that claim. What exactly is your net contribution to discussion?

12 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

You should have quoted the rest too. Where I say that it involve a complete development process based on end game only. Those developers are not bringing anything else than that. This is a choice the developers make at the very beginning of the development stage. DE obviously did not make that choice. 

I did not need to quote the rest, because the operative statement is that those games have managed to provide their own endgame, whether or not that endgame takes the form of constant content expansions (which, by the way, is a thing Warframe does too). DE clearly is making the choice to try to add endgame, even though those attempts have been unsuccessful.

12 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Every single warframe, weapon or island content still have an utility in the game no matter what new content they are adding. Island content does not mean useless. Your argument might be on point for some other discussion but not here. 

I fail to see what point you are trying to make here, because character classes don't become useless in other games either, nor is those games' endgame predicated on that. Content islands are in fact pertinent to this discussion, because you attempted to argue that Warframe develops content that ties into the entirety of the rest of the game, something that is clearly not true. This is especially not true for missions and levels, which are at the heart of the discussion of endgame, unless you are proposing some model of endgame that doesn't take the form of any mission type or game mode.

12 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Nope, they wanted to give content with a difficulty purpose to appease some players who were tired of having to start a mission and wait 1 hour to have some kind of challenge. It was at the time when Scott tried to explain why they are struggling to make challenging content. They want to give us some challenge, it has nothing to do with end game. They want to found a way to introduce challenging content that will remain challenging no matter what content they could add to the game without having to imagine another end game every 6 months. 

They explicitly talked about endgame content, and at the end of the day it is clear we are talking about the same thing, only you are for whichever reason extremely averse to using the term "endgame". Lack of challenge is but one of the reasons why Warframe has failed to provide us with an endgame, though it is certainly not the only reason.

12 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

And indeed, they haven't found the right way to do it. The damage rework, the nerfs we are seeing since few months might be the starting point of making more difficult content possible. Possible and enjoyable of course. 

This I can agree more with. I too think that in order for the game to give us a challenge, it needs to rework some of its systems and alter its balance so that challenge becomes possible at all. One of the key reasons why DE's attempts at endgame have failed is because the combination of our power and the game's inherent inability to challenge us means we can blaze through whichever content is given to us far quicker than the developers would like, which in turn causes them to pad out new content with loot dilution and excessive grinding until they are eventually forced to tone it down. Even Arbitrations, which very clearly aimed to provide endgame play for kitted-out veterans, are relatively easy to burn through with the right build, in spite of the mode's diluted drop tables.

[Felsagger]

Ok, lets try the idea of pushing a square over a circle hole. 

What type of endgame War Frame could sustain? If the idea is to find one and tune with it how we make this possible that such material doesn't exclude new players? How about if we want better enemy tiers that somehow change our behavior a bit on this pace. Heavy armored troops may do that. Larger enemies that allows insertion of bigger foes may do that. If DE decides one day to come off with the idea of 'end game' how this could be built so it works without going through painful repetition or a long wait in a 'lobby' for three hours getting that segment of a challenge? 

Are gear checkouts good? Of course. Are hardware stress test good? Of course. But where we place this idea of 'end game' so it doesn't throw off the game into the eternal cycles of buffs and nerfs? Howe we make 'endgame' be related only to 'game play' or extrinsics? DE tried seven years appeasing just long seasoned games. The excessive focus on looting left game play on a sideline when it should be the opposite. If we want to see a concrete idea of 'endgame' how this can happen without falling into all those ill conceived solutions? 

It can simply be a game mode. A well established game mode. That alone may solve the problem and of course improve the enemy design, enemy load out and mid boss battles anywhere.  

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

 

This is coming across increasingly as projection, given that you are visibly taking my criticism of your posts personally. I'm not saying you are a ridiculous person, I am saying the manner in which you are behaving in this thread is ridiculous. The response to this shouldn't be to throw yet another hissy fit, but to consider whether you are truly doing the right thing here.

Critique has other tones. A critique is constructive, your post aren't. The second part is a matter of perception. You are free to post your discussion without any issue. You are free to reply, converse, discern and agree or disagree. 

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

That does not make any more sense than previously, but sure.

Power creep player who clean the rooms with Nuke builds. 

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

That's all very nice, except it is you who are interjecting constantly, talking down to everyone you disagree with, and going straight to character assassination in what ought to be a civil discussion. You are in no position to lecture anyone else on respect, and you ought to take your own advice by respecting the agency of other players and letting them speak without trying to control what they get to say.

You keep quoting my posts. So that says a lot. Second respect begins with being benign. Your first post was defiant with the intention to armchair an opinion. When we speak about respect we do it peacefully without any intention to have a debate. A conversation is not a debate. You saw my first post inviting me to a challenge. I don't need to challenge you intellectually or establish a rubric in order to measure you intelligence coefficient. 

However if you invite a person to a duel. You can't expect flowers in return. It's not going to happen that way. I try to be benign without personal attacks or throw outs in an armchair wrestling match. For that we have the game. If we want to lash out some hurting words, we do it towards objects not individuals. If we go for individuals we end up in fights, arguments and debates. 

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

How you post is of my concern when it bogs down discussion. People having opinions that you agree with does not equate to them "having a good time conversing" with you, and conversation is a two-way process, something you clearly don't seem to understand when you feel the need to respond to virtually every post on this thread and have the last word in every conversation happening at the same time, even those that didn't include you to begin with.

Walk away. I don't retain or restraint you. You can't tell me what to do, how to think, what to say. Don't invest energies on things that are not going to happen, sir. If I feel the need, that is my concern and my choice. Live with it. If I want to comment on any comment that is my choice. There are rules, I'm not breaking them.  

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

Then leave the discussion at that, and stop making it about yourself, as you have now been doing for the last few replies. Again, what do you have left to add to this conversation? You've made it clear that you don't believe that endgame can exist, and have devoted the last few pages to bashing everyone over the head with that claim. What exactly is your net contribution to discussion?

Again, you can't tell me what to think, how to do my business, what to say. I respect your democracy. You respect my democracy. It is an elementary concept for any conversation. If you keep quoting me, of course you are the one making it about me. 

My net contribution are proposals, evidence, ideas on the game kernel, options to improve the game, brain storming on possible game designs. Research of new points of views. Links for reading among other things. 

Sorry for being rude but you are not the committee of trustees demanding how people most behave on a board. 

 

[HexOmega111x]

il y a 26 minutes, Zimzala a dit :

The endless challenging hamster wheel, IME, cannot be codified into a single game, but I would be happy to proven wrong. 

I agree with that statement but it was not the idea I tried to develop. When I talk about difficulty I'm referring to the problem warframe has to make difficulty a thing because of the damage mechanics. With the damage mechanics we had until recently, there was no difficulty curve sustainable around level 100-120. They seems to be working on a way to make this curve more linear which could help them to make more difficult content in the long term. 

[Zimzala]

2 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

I agree with that statement but it was not the idea I tried to develop. When I talk about difficulty I'm referring to the problem warframe has to make difficulty a thing because of the damage mechanics. With the damage mechanics we had until recently, there was no difficulty curve sustainable around level 100-120. They seems to be working on a way to make this curve more linear which could help them to make more difficult content in the long term. 

I hope as well the re-work of the underlying systems allows them to create a platform they can build off of in they way they want, reworking code is never very fun.

It's a complex, iterative process, regardless of the people I have seen claim on this forum "a good modder could balance WF in a weekend" and I am happy to play and give them money to give it thier best shot.

My main hope is that it keeps it's unique flavor.

[Vit0Corleone]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

1/3 WF players are playing more or less Solo. 

There is nothing in the game that requires you to squad up, and only a handful of activities exist where there is a clear advantage on going with a squad and from those, even less where actual co-op coordination make sense to exist, so people go with the "more or less" (usual PUbs)

DE made their own bed in this regard, it's no surprise.

But from those activities where there IS in fact an advantage with squading up and even coordinating, you will see that the number of players doing that is actually much larger within the scope of said activity.

TL;DR Not all activities should be measured by the same measuring stick; If you build it, they will come

Edited May 6, 2020 by Vit0Corleone

[Teridax68]

32 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Critique has other tones. A critique is constructive, your post aren't. The second part is a matter of perception. 

In other words, you are interpreting valid criticism as a personal attack, and using that as an excuse to worsen your behavior. QED.

32 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Power creep player who clean the rooms with Nuke builds. 

This is making even less sense the more you are developing on it.

32 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

You keep quoting my posts. So that says a lot.

It really doesn't, considering you were the first to interject, and I have only responded to you after your prompting. I haven't butted into conversations people were having, meanwhile there are few conversations on this thread you haven't tried to insert yourself into.

32 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Second respect begins with being benign. Your first post was defiant with the intention to armchair an opinion. When we speak about respect we do it peacefully without any intention to have a debate. A conversation is not a debate. You saw my first post inviting me to a challenge. I don't need to challenge you intellectually or establish a rubric in order to measure you intelligence coefficient. 

However if you invite a person to a duel. You can't expect flowers in return. It's not going to happen that way. I try to be benign without personal attacks or throw outs in an armchair wrestling match. For that we have the game. If we want to lash out some hurting words, we do it towards objects not individuals. If we go for individuals we end up in fights, arguments and debates. 

This is, once again, projection, a fact made particularly evident by your first few responses, which were condescending from the very beginning, yet very quickly spun an imaginary victim complex at how you felt attack by my not being impressed with you listing the chemical formula of cocaine (?!). Once again, you ought to take your own advice.

32 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Walk away. I don't retain or restraint you. You can't tell me what to do, how to think, what to say. Don't invest energies on things that are not going to happen, sir. If I feel the need, that is my concern and my choice. Live with it. If I want to comment on any comment that is my choice. There are rules, I'm not breaking them.  

Again, take your own advice, as the majority of your most recent posts have been you picking fights with several different users. If your only justification is that you haven't broken the rules, then that in itself is an implicit admission that you're not really behaving properly, and as for that much... well, I wouldn't be so sure.

32 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Again, you can't tell me what to think, how to do my business, what to say. I respect your democracy. You respect my democracy. It is an elementary concept for any conversation. If you keep quoting me, of course you are the one making it about me. 

That isn't how democracy works, and responding to someone does not mean the conversation has to center around their person. At this point, it appears you yourself are aware you're not behaving correctly in this discussion, and I would advise you to leave it here, if only for the sake of this thread. Much as I would like to discuss the actual topic of endgame with you, as I've been doing with other users, so long as you continue to insist that Warframe is a game of chess, I think we may just have to agree to disagree.

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

In other words, you are interpreting valid criticism as a personal attack, and using that as an excuse to worsen your behavior. QED.

Your criticism is far, way far from being valid. Your word is not the truth, my young padawan. 

Quote

This is making even less sense the more you are developing on it.

Yes, according to you. 

Quote

It really doesn't, considering you were the first to interject, and I have only responded to you after your prompting. I haven't butted into conversations people were having, meanwhile there are few conversations on this thread you haven't tried to insert yourself into.

I read everything in this thread. Those conversations are interesting but as you said, I don't have to respond on everything I read. But yes, there are great points there for a worthy discussion. 

Quote

This is, once again, projection, a fact made particularly evident by your first few responses, which were condescending from the very beginning, yet very quickly spun an imaginary victim complex at how you felt attack by my not being impressed with you listing the chemical formula of cocaine (?!). Once again, you ought to take your own advice.

Again, you are making things up. I don't waste time being condescending. if I want to insult someone I take my liberty and do it without second thoughts. However that is not how I do my transactions here. There are rules, there is etiquette and morals. You are trying to make people snap with your responses. You are deliberately asking for an irked reaction with your instigating comments that borderline on insults. 

That is not my cup of coffee. That is your business. I play always by my rules, not yours. 

Quote

Again, take your own advice, as the majority of your most recent posts have been you picking fights with several different users. If your only justification is that you haven't broken the rules, then that in itself is an implicit admission that you're not really behaving properly, and as for that much... well, I wouldn't be so sure.

Again, who is the one who continues quoting my posts? You, sir. Don't blame me. If you invite for a sword fight, you will get one. But I'm simply using my shield. Don't blame me for having a defensive position. Again, I don't need to ask for forgiveness about my behavior. I read the rules. I'm not in the red. That is what matters.

With all the time you dedicate to my posts, makes me think that you value me as the most important person in your life. 

For that here is a gift:❤️

I recommend that you play War Frame more often...:3

Quote

That isn't how democracy works, and responding to someone does not mean the conversation has to center around their person. At this point, it appears you yourself are aware you're not behaving correctly in this discussion, and I would advise you to leave it here, if only for the sake of this thread. Much as I would like to discuss the actual topic of endgame with you, as I've been doing with other users, so long as you continue to insist that Warframe is a game of chess, I think we may just have to agree to disagree.

 Yes according to you. Again, you have two choices. You can use the ignore list or you simply move away from my posts. No one forces you to stay. This is a conversation where you are the one having a bad time. Apparently these words goes back at you. "you are not behaving correctly in this discussion" when you can't disengage and stop replying to my posts. Looks like you are not capable of doing such thing. If you are going to judge someone, judge your own actions first. 

Go have a drink of coffee. Enjoy the game. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Felsagger

[Uhkretor]

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It is difficult to have any sort of conversation in this environment because your constant butting in and excessive amount of writing are derailing this thread to center it around yourself, all while drowning out people who have something genuinely interesting to say.

... That's... pretty much Felsagger's raison d'être...

 

... Yeah, just had to shine some light on it for those that didn't quite figure it out up until now...

 

Nice break I just had... Back to pissing off my Lich some more. Have fun comparing which nut is the prettiest.

[Felsagger]

My reason of being is quite simple. "laisse vivre et alisse murir". But no one will tell me how to carry my business. 

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, Vit0Corleone said:

There is nothing in the game that requires you to squad up, and only a handful of activities exist where there is a clear advantage on going with a squad and from those, even less where actual co-op coordination make sense to exist, so people go with the "more or less" (usual PUbs)

DE made their own bed in this regard, it's no surprise.

But from those activities where there IS in fact an advantage with squading up and even coordinating, you will see that the number of players doing that is actually much larger within the scope of said activity.

TL;DR Not all activities should be measured by the same measuring stick; If you build it, they will come

True. 

I had a lot of fun finding squads with randoms on simple missions. It's quite fun when they start rambling about details in the game that are hidden. The game can be almost being played solo. But doing that for me takes the War Frame 'spirit of the game' away. I can't sacrifice that. People is what makes this game interesting. Maybe the 'endgame' this game has is the diversity of players and those who find intricate curiosities in the game itself. 

There are people who dedicate their entire experience building up a beautiful dojo. Other people throw themselves on the search of the Kurias. Doing things in teams is so much fun. Maybe that is the gold of the game and the reason why I keep playing it. Yesterday a squad that I joined went into a full Kuria run. That was, in my opinion, my best experience with the game. I can call it 'endgame'. 

The strength of this game is the socialization. When people get cooperative and altruistic, that makes want to stay a bit more. 

[Aldain]

I still hold that a large portion of the problem stems from the insanely wide power scale that players can reach, currently there is no way to find a point of balance because if you balance for the median of the power scale you have things like the Kuva Bramma breaking the game in two, but if you balance for the Kuva Bramma you have a mode where only that can be used.

Others have said this before, but it often gets swept under the rug by massive derailments or being shouted down.

[Tinklzs]

On 2020-05-02 at 3:25 PM, Vespilan said:

Vague title, right? Been fiddling with it for a while.

For those of you who have been too busy picking their nose; The newest update to railjack has made the one endgame mode that we had, the one and only mode that posed a respectable challenge to player skill rather than just to weaponary, a whole lot easier. Again. Enemy fighter HP and armor have been halved and foot units have received nerfs as well. My question is; Why? Why does Warframe always have to appeal to a "casual" audience, to put it politely? Why does everything always have to be easy? Railjack was perfectly balanced and the trend to always appeal to bad, sorry but thats just how it is, players is why we cant have any endgame content.

I have heard that railjack veil proxima missions can now be solo'd in under five minutes thanks to seeker volley. DE; This is how stuff goes from content to grind, it gets boring because its just so ridicolously easy, just as on-foot missions. And with all this keep in mind, there is still the commander intrinsics tree coming up!

We cant have endgame content because a handfull of players keep crying about how hard any new gamemode is because they haven't adapted to it yet, DE gives in and creates another grindzone. 

 Plains had this. Fortuna before they did the exact same thing they did with RJ here. 

 

We can have endgame-like content, but we will never have a 'be all end all' endgame. World of Warcraft has 3 solid endgames, PvP, Raids and Achievement hunting (if it's something that entertains you).

We can't have raids in Warframe because - they were removed.

ESO could be a form of endgame for those that like to nuke everything, or have different challenges to get the most out of your weapons. "Keep 80% or higher efficiency using this frame and this weapon" with a different reward per challenge per day with a grand challenge per week.

Arbitrations before they added the revive mechanic. Just the same old stuff we've been doing, starting at a higher 'level' with a "one down" mechanic from payday 2.

Kuva Liches - to keep this short, as I've gone over it a few dozen times on these forums.  Intertwine different existing systems, invasions, railjack, kuva liches, derelict etc. Dynamic choices and mechanics to enhance your loot with the potential for a medium level of challenge with flexibility. Push your KL to open worlds then to RJ or maybe to invasions to keep them tougher with more thralls as bodyguards for more loot if you don't like RJ. etc etc etc.

Fortuna/Plains with Eidolons/Orbs , could be endgame level if done correctly and as everything else on this list, fleshed out more than the bare bones we have now.

Right now Warframe works under the idea of Oh that's a neat idea, lets add that. They add it, then rarely improve anything, so they build a beautiful foundation (or a semblance of it, looking at you KL, RJ) and kind of leave it alone or gut it a bit and destroy that delicate 'balance'.

 

 

I don't think Warframe needs to cater to casuals in every single capacity. There should be at least a couple of things that new players cannot immediately get into and conquer, and maybe it requires failure and testing, and learning. The gas city rework added some absolutely breath taking scenery, tilesets and parkour potential.. too bad it won't be utilized for a challenging environment or challenges or anything meaningful beyond "rush to objective, and extract". Which is a damned shame, such a waste of resources and talent. 

 

So can we have endgame? Only if DE and the players end up allowing us to. By fleshing out systems that are currently in place, making them 'more than what they are' and taking what makes them unique and building on that, branching out and then adding some difficulty to that. New AI, new enemies that adapt to your frame/movement (different move sets depending on your frame 'class') etc.  It just takes a different perspective, and a different thought process than what is currently in place.

[Aseraan]

On 2020-05-05 at 5:12 PM, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Stop assuming everyone plays public matches with randoms. Which high end players are you referring to....? All of them? 70%? 30%? 99%? I'm confused how you conveniently know how everyone plays the game. How about you provide some empirical evidence for your claim that apparently "everyone just nukes everything".

Organized groups of people that know how to play.....can complete content with whatever they like....and you're not going to see them....because they'll be making their own group....

U want proof? How about the fact that if you look closely enough the cheese to the max are the players who make parties via clan chat or recruit chat whit meta setups recomended most of the time while the other side the nukers are literally only play public whit kuva brama now before synoid and tonkor etc........

 

"and you're not going to see them" This hurts me on so many levels as i know its easy to assume im just a dumb ferret but pls atleast try like seriusly  ppl dont even need to look around much for it to see "Eidolon hunters, clan recruiting, ESO, Even Raids were  about  meta only.....get ur white knight propaganda outa here.