Jump to content

Why we cant have endgame content


Recommended Posts

I still hold that a large portion of the problem stems from the insanely wide power scale that players can reach, currently there is no way to find a point of balance because if you balance for the median of the power scale you have things like the Kuva Bramma breaking the game in two, but if you balance for the Kuva Bramma you have a mode where only that can be used.

Others have said this before, but it often gets swept under the rug by massive derailments or being shouted down.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-05-02 at 3:25 PM, Vespilan said:

Vague title, right? Been fiddling with it for a while.

For those of you who have been too busy picking their nose; The newest update to railjack has made the one endgame mode that we had, the one and only mode that posed a respectable challenge to player skill rather than just to weaponary, a whole lot easier. Again. Enemy fighter HP and armor have been halved and foot units have received nerfs as well. My question is; Why? Why does Warframe always have to appeal to a "casual" audience, to put it politely? Why does everything always have to be easy? Railjack was perfectly balanced and the trend to always appeal to bad, sorry but thats just how it is, players is why we cant have any endgame content.

I have heard that railjack veil proxima missions can now be solo'd in under five minutes thanks to seeker volley. DE; This is how stuff goes from content to grind, it gets boring because its just so ridicolously easy, just as on-foot missions. And with all this keep in mind, there is still the commander intrinsics tree coming up!

We cant have endgame content because a handfull of players keep crying about how hard any new gamemode is because they haven't adapted to it yet, DE gives in and creates another grindzone. 

 Plains had this. Fortuna before they did the exact same thing they did with RJ here. 

 

We can have endgame-like content, but we will never have a 'be all end all' endgame. World of Warcraft has 3 solid endgames, PvP, Raids and Achievement hunting (if it's something that entertains you).

We can't have raids in Warframe because - they were removed.

ESO could be a form of endgame for those that like to nuke everything, or have different challenges to get the most out of your weapons. "Keep 80% or higher efficiency using this frame and this weapon" with a different reward per challenge per day with a grand challenge per week.

Arbitrations before they added the revive mechanic. Just the same old stuff we've been doing, starting at a higher 'level' with a "one down" mechanic from payday 2.

Kuva Liches - to keep this short, as I've gone over it a few dozen times on these forums.  Intertwine different existing systems, invasions, railjack, kuva liches, derelict etc. Dynamic choices and mechanics to enhance your loot with the potential for a medium level of challenge with flexibility. Push your KL to open worlds then to RJ or maybe to invasions to keep them tougher with more thralls as bodyguards for more loot if you don't like RJ. etc etc etc.

Fortuna/Plains with Eidolons/Orbs , could be endgame level if done correctly and as everything else on this list, fleshed out more than the bare bones we have now.

Right now Warframe works under the idea of Oh that's a neat idea, lets add that. They add it, then rarely improve anything, so they build a beautiful foundation (or a semblance of it, looking at you KL, RJ) and kind of leave it alone or gut it a bit and destroy that delicate 'balance'.

 

 

I don't think Warframe needs to cater to casuals in every single capacity. There should be at least a couple of things that new players cannot immediately get into and conquer, and maybe it requires failure and testing, and learning. The gas city rework added some absolutely breath taking scenery, tilesets and parkour potential.. too bad it won't be utilized for a challenging environment or challenges or anything meaningful beyond "rush to objective, and extract". Which is a damned shame, such a waste of resources and talent. 

 

So can we have endgame? Only if DE and the players end up allowing us to. By fleshing out systems that are currently in place, making them 'more than what they are' and taking what makes them unique and building on that, branching out and then adding some difficulty to that. New AI, new enemies that adapt to your frame/movement (different move sets depending on your frame 'class') etc.  It just takes a different perspective, and a different thought process than what is currently in place.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-05-05 at 5:12 PM, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Stop assuming everyone plays public matches with randoms. Which high end players are you referring to....? All of them? 70%? 30%? 99%? I'm confused how you conveniently know how everyone plays the game. How about you provide some empirical evidence for your claim that apparently "everyone just nukes everything".

Organized groups of people that know how to play.....can complete content with whatever they like....and you're not going to see them....because they'll be making their own group....

U want proof? How about the fact that if you look closely enough the cheese to the max are the players who make parties via clan chat or recruit chat whit meta setups recomended most of the time while the other side the nukers are literally only play public whit kuva brama now before synoid and tonkor etc........

 

"and you're not going to see them" This hurts me on so many levels as i know its easy to assume im just a dumb ferret but pls atleast try like seriusly  ppl dont even need to look around much for it to see "Eidolon hunters, clan recruiting, ESO, Even Raids were  about  meta only.....get ur white knight propaganda outa here.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Aseraan said:

U want proof? How about the fact that if you look closely enough the cheese to the max are the players who make parties via clan chat or recruit chat whit meta setups recomended most of the time while the other side the nukers are literally only play public whit kuva brama now before synoid and tonkor etc........

 

"and you're not going to see them" This hurts me on so many levels as i know its easy to assume im just a dumb ferret but pls atleast try like seriusly  ppl dont even need to look around much for it to see "Eidolon hunters, clan recruiting, ESO, Even Raids were  about  meta only.....get ur white knight propaganda outa here.

How many individual players do you see in a daily play time? Do you even keep track? 

Seeing some people in recruit asking for Mesa doesnt mean that's the entire playerbase. 

Are you justifying using anecdotal evidence and what you've seen in chat as your indicators? I'm legitimately asking.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-05-05 at 5:01 AM, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

Did you double post on accident?

Your end game and mine are not the same.  And you clearly missed my point.

You can handicap yourself if difficulty is your end game. And the game has multiple modes to spend your time in.

Railjack is not complete sadly. But we already know it'll be updated in parts.

If you didn't enjoy something about the game you wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

But it is the same though. End game is a term used to define the highest level of difficulty / challenge content within a game.
If you're playing Arbitrations, or ESO for example, those can be considered end game. But you can't just run Lith fissures because you enjoy it and say "Your end game and mine are not the same".
Multiple game modes are irrelevant. Handicapping yourself is irrelevant. If you run Meso level fissures while wearing unmodded MK-1 weapons, you might have a hard time. That doesn't mean you are playing Warframe's end game.

And talking specifically about Warframe's end game, it has several problems that has been present for years including lack of real challenge / excitement (they introduced Arbitrations specifically for that, but it is a bit light, and suffers from lack of exciting rewards), but also the fact that rewards doesn't really scale with difficulty.

Those are perceived issues by a vast number of people. The fact that you enjoy the end game the way it is, or that you consider low-mid tier content "your endgame" doesn't mean that it IS actually end game, and that objectively, in terms of game design, it can't be improved.
Your response is just saying "things are fine, if you don't like it don't play it", which a) shuts down all form of dialogue b) is the opposite of what every game developper does since they constantly ask for community's feedback.

So no I did not miss your point, i was pointing out it is nonsensical.

And yeah i somehow double posted not sure how, my bad.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Aseraan said:

U want proof? How about the fact that if you look closely enough the cheese to the max are the players who make parties via clan chat or recruit chat whit meta setups recomended most of the time while the other side the nukers are literally only play public whit kuva brama now before synoid and tonkor etc........

 

"and you're not going to see them" This hurts me on so many levels as i know its easy to assume im just a dumb ferret but pls atleast try like seriusly  ppl dont even need to look around much for it to see "Eidolon hunters, clan recruiting, ESO, Even Raids were  about  meta only.....get ur white knight propaganda outa here.

Can you provide any emphatically correct data in regards to your statement. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Warframe had a "endgame" that nobody really realize it, and they removed it by putting permanent armistice at 2015 instead of fixing it, that is the only content that suppose to solve the current content drought problem along with clan and alliance being useless beside research. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, -BG-MagicalAbyss said:

Warframe had a "endgame" that nobody really realize it, and they removed it by putting permanent armistice at 2015 instead of fixing it, that is the only content that suppose to solve the current content drought problem along with clan and alliance being useless beside research. 

 Completely agree. 

That  was the best concept of the game. Then DE threw it away. If we could ever speak about 'endgame' is this. DE had the formula. Alliances and clans doesn't make any sense.  Would we see them with Rail Jack? Can DE get over the Solar Rails again and retake the dark sectors? It was a great tower defense mode with minions and probably a venture into the MOBA arena. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Felsagger said:

If you invite for a sword fight, you will get one.

This is very nice, but you were the one who messaged me first, not the other way round. Putting aside how inherently self-defeating it is to rant, whine and cry at length in defense of how your own behavior is supposedly healthy, it is clear by the rising number of comments by other users that you have earned yourself a rather unsavory reputation. Rather than tell me to "have a drink of coffee" (?) and leave, you should perhaps take your own advice and stop embarrassing yourself. Not only would it help you, it would allow others to have an actual conversation on this thread. Also:

8 hours ago, Felsagger said:

My reason of being is quite simple. "laisse vivre et alisse murir".

Please don't ever attempt to speak French again. Yuck.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-05-02 at 3:25 PM, Vespilan said:

We cant have endgame content because a handfull of players...

It's not just "a handfull" is the problem.  It's the bulk of players.  You need to get used to the idea the vast majority of players have no interest in the content you desire.

Link to post
Share on other sites
vor 51 Minuten schrieb PatternistSlave:

It's not just "a handfull" is the problem.  It's the bulk of players.  You need to get used to the idea the vast majority of players have no interest in the content you desire.

And the bulk of players will someday have the same problem, if they become better. And like now they all just leave like the players before them just because they are a "minority". Wouldn't it be better to give the experienced player a reason to stay in the in game instead of just going?

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

And the bulk of players will someday have the same problem, if they become better. And like now they all just leave like the players before them just because they are a "minority". Wouldn't it be better to give the experienced player a reason to stay in the in game instead of just going?

Perhaps the experienced players shouldn't expect every game to cater to their desires.

Let the casuals have this one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Perhaps the experienced players shouldn't expect every game to cater to their desires.

Let the casuals have this one.

I honestly don’t think they want their every whim catered too rather than actual content that would match up to time invested and weaponary collected. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Perhaps the experienced players shouldn't expect every game to cater to their desires.

Let the casuals have this one.

I honestly don’t think they want their every whim catered too rather than actual content that would match up to time invested and weaponary collected. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Perhaps the experienced players shouldn't expect every game to cater to their desires.

Let the casuals have this one.

I honestly don’t think they want their every whim catered too rather than actual content that would match up to time invested and weaponary collected. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Felsagger said:

"My name is Ervin and I condemn you felsager to the corner of the clueless player."

So Ervin finally admits it. Thank you. You saved me few posts. 

lmao. 

Because there is none for this game. DE tried seven years. 

Are you going to try? lol. 

People has different perceptions, Ervin, sorry I think that is a novelty for you but is true. Not everybody thinks the same. 

Of course, these games emerged from other sources. It's not wrong to get attributes of other games in your game. 

A Massive Online Battle Arena happens in War Frame. How? The first warframe takes the damage if three of them are behind but all the War Frame Weapons adds in the damage going through other War Frames. Weapon projectile trajectory is not interrupted except Bramma and other Rocket based weapons. This happens in OverWatch. OverWatch is a Moba. 

Well, wait what? 

Oh But I'm not wrong perceiving it as a Moba. 

https://www.gamecrate.com/overwatch-moba-masses/13593

I said that War Frame has attributes of a Moba game. Obviously LoL, DOTA 2 and Heroes of The Storm are a strict MOBA game. Believe me I know what those are. 

Comparisons based on perception. Are they silly, well that's subjectivity. Let me see if we reasons something here. LOL, Heroes of the Storm and DOTA 2 are VERSUS games, see, PVP. Is War Frame a strict PvP game. NO. No you can't apply the idea of 'endgame' on this game to War Frame. 

War Frame is a different GAAS game. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_as_a_service

I get ya. lol. 

Nice move trying to miss-quote me as if I said that I was the one being ass backwards. Would have been funny if that miss-type was a thing though. I give you a 1 for effort.

It is also not about different perceptions, it is about which came first and which part draws inspiration from what and is like something else. The genre that WF is part of came before the mobas and shared small parts with RTS games of the time, though they didnt share the things you claim they shared with RTS games. Those similarities kinda goes away when the game is no longer isometric. The whole gun emplacement thing you once mentioned really has nothing to do with RTS, neither does spawning companions, using power ups or other things.

A MOBA is a PvP game, it also doesnt mean Massive Online Battle Arena, it means Multiplayer with the M. Or are you now suddenly claiming that MOBAs are really MMOs and WF is one too? The idea of that makes MOBAs unique and defines the genre isnt about who takes damage or that one player can tank for the other or get in the way of something, it is about the progression, producing minions and taking out enemy objectives etc. DotA was the original, it was a MOBA. Strand of the Ancients which was inspired by the DotA map, was however not a MOBA mode, it was still a normal massive multiplayer battleground in World of Warcraft. WF has no attributes from MOBAs, MOBAs may have attributes from WF, that is a big freakin difference.

The MOBA concept does not apply to neither WF or Overwatch. WF at best is a FFA or take and hold third person shooter PvP game in conclave, there are no MOBA elements to it, mainly because there is no PvP (except in conclave), no match based progression and no minions to produce and maintain as the match goes on. Overwatch is an Arena Shooter, i.e a regular FPS but scaled down severely with more distinct class roles and bigger limitations, like TF and TF2. The game modes are the same as can be seen as in a normal FPS of a larger scale.

And the video you show just shows a map inspired by DotA, that is not the same as make it a MOBA map since it has none of the mechanics of such a game. Just as Strand of the Ancients wasnt a MOBA but was inspired by a map in a MOBA game.

You need to start understanding the differences of mechanics that defines where a game belongs and the chronology so you know which came first and inspired what.

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I honestly don’t think they want their every whim catered too rather than actual content that would match up to time invested and weaponary collected. 

And, simply put, that is an impossibility with Warframe's current sandbox.

I'd love for the game to be rebalanced for a more orthodox skill curve, but even if it was I would oppose endgame. "Haves and Have Nots" is not my idea of a fun time, and seeing what happens to other games that try to chase Endgame as a goal (namely, post launch additions of casual content dry up), I am not keen on having Warframe follow the same pattern.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Corvid said:

And, simply put, that is an impossibility with Warframe's current sandbox.

I'd love for the game to be rebalanced for a more orthodox skill curve, but even if it was I would oppose endgame. "Haves and Have Nots" is not my idea of a fun time, and seeing what happens to other games that try to chase Endgame as a goal (namely, post launch additions of casual content dry up), I am not keen on having Warframe follow the same pattern.

I don’t believe it’s impossible yet it would be quite difficult as mentioned. I think they would strive in optional endgame and challenge and or the possibility of expanding upon the broken base in a more balanced way for an optional mode for players who seek such thrill. They don’t have to chase endgame to make a great endgame. Rather than try to make a balanced and unique fit for what warframe is imo 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I don’t believe it’s impossible yet it would be quite difficult as mentioned. I think they would strive in optional endgame and challenge and or the possibility of expanding upon the broken base in a more balanced way for an optional mode for players who seek such thrill. They don’t have to chase endgame to make a great endgame. Rather than try to make a balanced and unique fit for what warframe is imo 

Ok, then what would Warframe's endgame look like to satisfy you? As specific as possible, please.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Ok, then what would Warframe's endgame look like to satisfy you? As specific as possible, please.

Personally Im open to anything but for specially just me. An optional rebalanced game mode of the start chart for starters. Something that can be enabled after you’ve reached at least mr 16 completed the star chart and you’re set. Enemies now have an extra 15% status resistance and 5% DR (numebers are open to change)  and there are unique and new enemies in each tileset for the new mode as well as old threats. (Old maniacs etc. enemies are much smarter. Just as an example if you’re using a loud weapon in stealth enemies will be alerted and try to shoot in that direction and there are medics that can heal and in some rare cases revive enemies in certain modes while I do think that there should be exclusive mods and rewards tied to this I do understand how people fee about that idea (however this is just my dream of warframe) such as mods and or exilus mods that could drastically enhance your movement speed or modify your weapons fire type something unique and fun. But as far as the base star chart there we go. Every planet now has a revamped boss and a trial with 8 players that dosent require just the puzzle phase of old lor. For example saturns raid could be  the wolf is in the process of coming back with stronger and better upgrades along with a more dangerous army. It would be your goal now different phases which could be ground and rj split or all 8 players in space (two rj) or in ground trying to run through the mission. Imagine you having to have someone in a group defend the ground ships another part of the squad invading and disabling his frontline defenses and then another part of the squad taking out the army to progress and fight wolf in a berserker state of which is fueled by the loss of his comrades.  He’s not a chess boss that abuses weakpoints or damage phases but

mobile. Jumping around (not exactly) like you trying to fight off and use his powers to take down his opponents in a glory full battle. 

Rewards could be possibly new arcanes or cosmetics etc. I personally gave up on the idea of dreaming for endgame on warframe so I don’t think about continuing this or refining this anymore rather then it’s just a meme on my ship that says wish for endgame. As I’ve moved on to other games with all my other friends for challenge like bdo. I’d love to see warframe implementing an endgame system for vets and longer time players of content that would suit me but I see it’s not their vision. So I log on less and less now and I just simply put play other games. Not because I don’t enjoy warframe but because I feel like personally they don’t put out content for my interest group of players anymore and it makes me sad

Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

-Snip-

I give this idea 3 weeks tops before players find a way to trivialise it, and we end up back where we started.

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Off topic responses, if you want to derail, hijack the thread or start arguments, PM the messages. This is simply plain trolling with the intention to throw away the thread conversation. If you continue this, I'll report to the moderators. 

It very much comes down to the topic since it highlights very well the reason why your views on what endgame is are incorrect since you cannot get any of your terminology tied to the correct definition. This in turn leads to you not being able to actually give any real input on endgame for WF since you connect it to completely different genres and sub genres with completely different rules and mechanics.

I hope you are also aware that "threatening" to report someone is actually an offense in itself, both on the forums and in-game.

edit: Your very first post in this specific thread is in itself a troll and derail post since it claims that GAAS games cannot have endgame, while the reality is that pretty much all GAAS games have endgame following the very definition that was coined for online games back in the 90's. When GAAS games in reality were only MUDs or MMOs and nothing else.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...